Just played my 46th draigo wing game

[thade]

Mayhem? (I'll google news on london; not a topic for here I bet.) I do regret that travel is non-trivial for me, otherwise I'd come out there and throw down with you gentlemen. Some day. :)

 

I'm not saying you won't stand a chance at a tournament, even without FNP. (Really, all of that uber meta'd list crap I put forward up there ignores FNP anyway.) Besides, with creative usage of deployment, Grand Strat (Scouting), reserves, target priority and usage of terrain I bet you can still rock those lists. I have faith. Doesn't mean I'm not skeptical, but I have faith. :D

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Let's look at the math hammer for S4 shooting versus a five man squad of Paladins without an apothecary.

 

Basically it requires 6 wounds to inflict one unsaved wound. So it requires 6*10 wounds to kill the entire squad, or 60 total wounds. If we account for hitting (let's assume it's BS4) then the total number of shots required are 1.5*60 or 90 shots. If we assume it's BS3 then the total number of shots required is 120. That's a lot of shooting for either ballistic skill. Sure the number of shots required goes through the roof if we were to include the apothecary but take a moment and consider an actual game - careful deployment and movement means you are going to be able to greatly reduce the number of incoming shots versus the majority of armies. Most units that are shooting S4 weapons must be in range of the Paladins (12" or less to rapid fire) so they'll have to suffer the inevitable return fire and assaults... Do you really want to get that close? Most armies are not going to win a shootout versus Grey Knights - only dark eldar can shoot as much or more. Tactical Marines, dark eldar Warriors and guardsmen will be mowed down before they can ever reach anywhere near the mark of 90 shots and they'll pay dearly trying.

 

So sure FNP is great versus small arms fire and it makes the Paladins all but impervious to bolters, lasguns and poisoned weapons but it's not really worth the points when you consider realistically how much actual shooting any given army can generate versus a well designed Draigowing army. If we consider higher strength weapons that don't inflict instant death (S5 - S7) that is where FNP might actually be useful - such as autocannons and multi lasers. Of course though a good general is going to target those platforms first and obviously versus S8 and higher it doesn't matter.

 

G :)

[Zagman]

Mathhammer is ever the foe of players, everywhere. No matter how much it says it wants to be your friend, tell it to know its place!

 

Seven un-upgraded tac marines rapid-fire for 14 shots, hit with 2/3 of them (BS 4) wound on 2/3 of their hits (S4 v T4)

 

Definitely the foe of players... S4 vs T4 is 1/2, not 2/3....

 

MM Devs are not a great choice, sure they may do well vs DriagoWing, but most armies have a much longer engagement range. 24" non relentless Heavy Weapons just don't hack it, poor player may even end up in a spear head deployment... Thats also 690pts in Heavy Support!

 

Just a point of suggestion, when you are arguing for FNP, don't use S8 AP1 Examples. Anyone that has put DriagoWing on the table knows that they can take an obscene amount of small arms fire and shudder when anything that is S8+AP2- is pointed at them. The Apothecary is nothing but a shiny toy that is not points efficient.

[Zagman]

You rarely EVER lose paladins to small arms fire, but will lose them in droves against S8+ AP2- weaponry.

 

yeah, thade!!! you should know better than to listen to me, im a big fat liar :mellow:

 

just so everyone is aware

Paladins are twice as resilient to small arms fire as GKTDAs for only a 37.5% increase in cost. A 5 man paladin unit can take the small arms fire required to eliminate a TDA unit and still function at full capacity.

Is a blatant exaggeration wrapped in "mathhammer"

if your taking one wound/saving throw at a time, this much is true.. however in the "bucket of dice approach" each model usually takes a couple of saves each, its usually the case that you will lose one or two paladins before each of the others even gets a wound.. its the luck of the draw..

 

Blatant exaggeration? I think not.

 

That is the cost difference between the two units and their resilience to small arms in total wounds. The claim about being able to take wounds without losing effectiveness is true as well. Though, it doesn't always work out that way, it often does. Here is a very simple example of how small arms fire just doesn't cut it against Paladins. Lets take 20 necron warriors rapid firing against a meager 5 paladin. 40 shots, 26 2/3 Hits, 13 1/3 Wounds. 2 Paladins must make two saves, while 3 must make 3 saves. Ends up with an over 81% chance that all 5 paladins survive. That same amount of firepower would on average kill 2 terminators and every fifth time a third.

 

Now if those same 20 Necron Warriors were firing against that 5 man paladin squad with Driago in it there is an 87% chance that all of the paladins survive.

 

Against 10 Paladins with Driago, a 97% chance.

[greatcrusade08]

again with mathhammer.. which totally ignores the randomness of dice rolls... what if in the first volley of "small arms fire" paladin one is the only wounded man... in the second volley, he could lose his other wound too, without his mates even being touched.

now i realise im going the other way with exaggeration, but the point stands.. after some shooting a couple of paladins will be on a single wound.. once your opponent can pour 5 or more wounds on a unit those single wound guys become delicate.

 

edit: in all the games ive seen using pallies, ive never seen a game where all 5 have taken a single wound, your assertion that it often happens just doesnt hold weight given my experience with them

[Zagman]

Again with the immaterial arguments in favor of chance over the laws of probability. Dice are random, but still obey the laws of probability. Mathhammer is a tool, it is not the be all end all of 40k.

 

Yes, you will lose paladins to small arms fire eventually, but it takes quite a bit of shooting or some very bad luck. And before you say luck is part of the game, I'll say that could happen with FNP too, just half as likely. I am not making the argument that you won't lose paladins, but I am arguing that the price you pay to give them FNP just isn't worth it.

 

I cam remember three distinct examples where my 5 man paladin units all lost a single wound before I lost a model. Once the accompanying librarian had also lost a wound. I also remember a ten man unit with Driago where I was down to 9 paladins, 7 of which were wounded. I also remember a game where I finished the game with 14 paladins, 11 or 12 of which were wounded. Would FNP have helped me in those situations? Yes. But, not enough to justify the cost in an ultra elite army where points are at a premium.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well said Zagman. Well said indeed. :)

 

G :mellow:

[greatcrusade08]

Again with the immaterial arguments in favor of chance over the laws of probability. Dice are random, but still obey the laws of probability. Mathhammer is a tool, it is not the be all end all of 40k.

 

thats not what i said, your trying to blind my arguments by bringing up probability.

heres my take, and ill keep it simple so your basic math can keep up

 

6 man squad, has to take 6 saving throws.. each man has a 1 in 6 chance of losing a wound..

now repeat the process, each man has a 1 in 6 chance of losing a wound..

 

what are the chances that those two wounds fall on the same model... its down to chance, there is no probabilities involved there (only the probablity of each model rolling a one)..

chance/luck DOES factor quite strongly on where those wounds fall.. especially when your rolling enough saves to make every man roll once or twice each..

your argument is also somewhat hypocritical, claiming probability as the favoured argument yet also claiming mathhammer is only a tool... which is it?

 

im sure three distinct examples sounds like alot, can i ask how many games youve played? in my won experience as ive said ive never come across it.

I think the big factor here, is that you use them, i face them.. when it comes to destroying paladins id rather use the perspective from my side of the table, and im saying apothecaries make a big enough difference to warrant taking.. as for cost, as ive said on bigger units only to mitigate the extra points.

 

And before you say luck is part of the game, I'll say that could happen with FNP too, just half as likely.

well duh, isnt that the point ive been making???????

if your agument (and it seems to be) is that paladins will never fall to small arms fire, then i have to remind you that i HAVE tabled a large mob of them with draigo and a libby with nothing but small arms fire.. S6 thunderfire blasts help alot towards that goal.

I realise your some kinda big shot tourney player with draigowing, but no one man carries all knowledge.. perhapos youve not been playing the right opponents <_<

[thade]

Thanks for catching my mistake.

 

Funny thing about probability; average dice rolls don't actually play out to the real mean until you've rolled thousands of times. Which you don't do during a game. That's why you can have a game with lots of bad dice rolling in it. Not to mention that the sample set of your shooting, armor saves...even all of your own dice is a restricted sample set. You need to consider the other player throwing dice too. Both of you doing crappy? How about the next table? <_<

 

Anyway, I wasn't using S8 AP1 to push FNP (as I said, it ignores FNP); it was a different example entirely, concerning the use of Draigo-wing at a meta'd tournament setting. You are going to see melta-spam lists. You must expect that, I'm sure.

 

As for its value, I'm still convinced. I've faced tank-less foot-slogging IG armies before; even with just their transports, that's a ludicrous amount of gun shots. Ork shooting lists: an obtuse amount of bullets flying. How about Orks when they charge? They measure their number of attacks in dice cubes, rolling two to three cubes (that's the small dice, by the way, 36 at a time) as they charge in. All of those WS4 S4 hits are going to do some damage. You'll have to take saves, you'll roll some ones.

 

Maybe you don't have any Ork or IG players at your clubs, so that sheer volume of fire doesn't concern you. Certainly you don't need an apothecary to weather a few turns of tactical squad fire. But two 30-boy Ork Squads charging you? I'll take my chances with the Apothecary. You will see those kinds of lists if you make it anywhere at Ardboyz. One of my club mates showed me an Eldar list he's going to run where he gets 120 S5 shots a turn. Oh, he's also got two teams of Fire Dragons and two Fire Prisms.

 

Every six saves, a dead Paladin. Every other six saves, a dead Paladin. I'm still convinced.

[greatcrusade08]

when you have such a small model count, you need to mitigate thier losses as much as possible... some armies do throw buckets of dice, when that happens the ones seem to strick like mud, lots of mud

 

edit: tbh ive found that with stealth from libbies and with draigo taking las and melta blasts on his 3++ EW its hard to get insta gib hits to stick on pallies.. you really do need those sternguard or chosen or termicide units to hit.. anything that only has the one or two heavy weapons wont scratch them generally..

however buckets of dice care not for inv saves or cover saves a 1 is always a fail

[thade]

It's the buckets-of-dice thing that really concerns me, haha. Orks on the charge are insane, and even if I field a Librarian with Sanc, they are eventually going to get a charge on me.

[Crynn]

All really good points and good math and logic use to back them up.

 

I will agree with black orange though in that I do not find that the apothicary is as usefull as it may same, using wound shinanigans small arms fire is still quite inefective. It will wear them doen but as Black Orange said over the coarse of a game there are very few armies that can pump out that many dice at range. the instant death shots killing the pallies is a more likely outcome.

 

Also once models start taking wounds from small arms fire, they are the models that you elect to remove from instant death attacks and thus it isn't uncommon to see a paladin squad with all mdoels on 1 wound ganted this is almost never a full squad.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Zagman]

@greatcrusade08

Snarky, ehh??

Your "basic math" example has a couple of problems. You aren't being targeted by only small arms fire. So, for instance one of those paladins who happens to have lost a wound is the lucky guy who take the next ID wound. That is the beauty of wound allocation. Wound allocation that I can minimize the number of paladins I lose. Will I eventually lose some, yes. Is it worth the cost of an Apothecary to reduce that, no.

 

I have many many more paladins from S8+ AP2- firepower than I ever have from small arms fire. I'd rather field an extra paladin, or buy a PT for a DK rather than buy an apothecary.

 

Mathhammer is a tool. A tool which can be used to help make decisions and build effective lists. As any tool it requires effective use.

 

I am currently 22-1-2 with my DriagoWing, not quite an Armchair General. My two draws came against Nullzone, THSS, SM lists by different players at 2.5k, one of which I helped write for my opponent to take advantage of my weaknesses. My only loss was against a Coteaz Spammed Psyker, Conversion Beamer, Jokearo list at 1.5k. He never failed a Psychic Test rolling grossly above average, and I could make a save(Driago failed 2 Invuln and an armor out of his first 4 saves). I played that opponent twice more at 2k and wiped him off the table both times.

 

@Thade

There are outlier games, but I refuse to rely on luck. I attempt to choose the best targets and rely on the odds for my decision making. Does lady luck ever slap me in the face, yes. But, at the end of the day I'm happy with my decisions and how the games turn out.

 

I have played against Orks and their die cubes. One memorable game i faced a Ghazgul Green Horde at 2.5k outnumbered ~7:1. I wiped the army losing 6 models, with 19 left. I brought overwhelming force to bear and took full advantage of the power of Sanctuary. I've played a couple of other games against orks though that was the largest model count. The other armies didn't fair even that well, like the guy who fielded MegaNobz.... Ouch...

 

I've also taken Tau shooting, DE rapidfire and Blood Bride assaults. No IG blobs yet, but looks like I may get to see one next Saturday.

[thade]

Armies that can put out buckets of dice for shots and/or attacks: Orks, IG, Eldar, Tau, Dark Eldar, Witch Hunters (Sisters of Battle)...that's most of them. There are definitely marine lists that can put out buckets of dice for shots too, just not as ludicrous as the other armies. You're going to Ard Boyz. Be ready to slog through a leaf blower.

 

EDIT: Ya ninja'd me, man.

 

I'm glad you're doing well. :) You've encouraged me (over the course of our discussion) to try a variant paladin list without an Apothecary. To be honest, the apothecary seems fluffy to me (it's why I run much of anything these days)...it makes sense that an apothecary would follow around literally the most valuable assets the chapter has to make sure they come home (one way or another). Good luck this weekend!

[greatcrusade08]

@greatcrusade08

Snarky, ehh??

Your "basic math" example has a couple of problems. You aren't being targeted by only small arms fire. So, for instance one of those paladins who happens to have lost a wound is the lucky guy who take the next ID wound. That is the beauty of wound allocation. Wound allocation that I can minimize the number of paladins I lose. Will I eventually lose some, yes. Is it worth the cost of an Apothecary to reduce that, no.

 

I have many many more paladins from S8+ AP2- firepower than I ever have from small arms fire. I'd rather field an extra paladin, or buy a PT for a DK rather than buy an apothecary.

 

firstly my example was small arms only, becuase believe it or not thats how i do things, i have precious few low AP weapons in my army.

i think you also missed my point about local meta..

the argument here is not whether YOU would benefit from taking apoths, but whether apoths are worth taking in general.. if youve decided that you dont face the buckets of dice often enough to warrant it thats fine, a decision well made..

that doesnt preclude our point from having validity for those who do

[thade]

the argument here is not whether YOU would benefit from taking apoths, but whether apoths are worth taking in general.. if youve decided that you dont face the buckets of dice often enough to warrant it thats fine, a decision well made..

that doesnt preclude our point from having validity for those who do

More or less the point I had tried to make as well. Buckets of dice abound in my neck of the woods. It makes playing with 20 or less models an edgy prospect. Hence, why I'm going to do it.

[Zagman]

@greatcrusade08

Snarky, ehh??

Your "basic math" example has a couple of problems. You aren't being targeted by only small arms fire. So, for instance one of those paladins who happens to have lost a wound is the lucky guy who take the next ID wound. That is the beauty of wound allocation. Wound allocation that I can minimize the number of paladins I lose. Will I eventually lose some, yes. Is it worth the cost of an Apothecary to reduce that, no.

 

I have many many more paladins from S8+ AP2- firepower than I ever have from small arms fire. I'd rather field an extra paladin, or buy a PT for a DK rather than buy an apothecary.

 

firstly my example was small arms only, becuase believe it or not thats how i do things, i have precious few low AP weapons in my army.

i think you also missed my point about local meta..

the argument here is not whether YOU would benefit from taking apoths, but whether apoths are worth taking in general.. if youve decided that you dont face the buckets of dice often enough to warrant it thats fine, a decision well made..

that doesnt preclude our point from having validity for those who do

 

And the point that I've been trying to make is that in my experience buckets of dice aren't that scary, its the scary sources of S8+ AP2- firepower that are the real issue. Vindicators, SRs, Las Preds, MeltaVets, Valks, etc... CC units like TH/SS Termies and Dreads hurt too. Small arms fire can be mitigated through good play and tactics, etc. The real threat to Paladins is S8+AP2-.

 

Do you play a DriagoWing army, or only against them?

[greatcrusade08]

Do you play a DriagoWing army, or only against them?

 

i play against EVERY army using the same all rounder list, i wouldnt expect melta spammage to have much effect on a horde army so i dont specialise in that way.. my army is catered for all, henece the buckets of dice approach

[Zagman]

Could you post your list. I'm curious to see this "buckets o dice" all comers list of doom.

[greatcrusade08]

Could you post your list. I'm curious to see this "buckets o dice" all comers list of doom.

 

nope cuz i can see where this is going, how about i just flop out my manhood and we have a measure.. it seems more in line with the kind of topic this is devolving into.

some people always have to know best, its very sad.

you say buckets of dice doesnt work, ive said ive had it work for me successfully... if thats not good enough for you, then im done here, becuase the argument becomes circular otherwise

[Zagman]

You make astounding claims. I'm curious. Are you so afraid of criticism?

[greatcrusade08]

You make astounding claims. I'm curious. Are you so afraid of criticism?

 

why is it an astounding claim to say that rolling lots of dice means rolling more ones.. your the math expert you tell me.

unless your saying that your soooo good that you would never lose to a bucket of dice list... perhaps you can post your list of GT wins? or are YOU afraid of a little criticism?

i fully admit on every occasion that i dont expect my army yo win any GTs, but at least i get remembered for something other than a monochromatic net list with no individuality or uniqueness. Becuase lets face it the big important events have upto 100 gamers, all taking the 'meta' lists, if your doing the same how do you expect to win?

 

it seems to me that your threatened by someone suggesting a 'different' way of doing things.. there is not one solo build that has an "i win" button, maybe once you realise that youll open your mind to some proper discussion instead of remaining fixed with a closed one track mind.

on that note, good day to you

[Zagman]

I have never made claims to being an amazing player.

I have never claimed to have an "I Win" button army.

I have never claimed that lots of dice can't kill paladins, only that in my experience it isn't the biggest threat facing them and does not warrant the cost of an apothecary. And certainly not for an All Comers list.

 

Monochromatic Net list? I ordered my entire 2.5k army prior to looking at the codex. I wanted an army of heroes. And I started playing it as soon as I got my hands on the codex. I then wrote an army list that could be competitive with my self imposed restraints. Sound familiar? Almost like someone who chooses to play an all scout army. I argued that DriagoWing could be competitive when almost everyone laughed at the idea. I've stuck with it, and certainly am not someone who jumped on the bandwagon.

 

I'm all for different ways of doing things, but you have not made a single supported argument for the inclusion of a apothecary from a cost to benefit rationale. Most of your arguments are very vague in regards to the costs involved focusing on what is to be gained to the exclusion of what must be given up.

 

I have not been any more closed minded than you have been. I'd like to think I've been less insulting, but that's debatable.

[Crynn]

All right guys calm down. You guys are both two very intelligent people and I've read enough of your posts to know you both know what you are talking about, I get into these debates too and find myself being less than gentlemanly sometimes so I'll take the path of 'it take one to know one' and say this isn't going anywhere with the current way you are arguing.

 

Great Crusade, always a great debater mate, could you please post something similar to your list or give an example to how much a 'bucket of dice is' in your case because it is a relative term and it would be interesting to see what kind of stuff you are talking about throwing down here. I do understand you aren't talking about killing them all just a few so their numbers drop.

 

Zagman, I understand where you are coming from, I have recently taken out my apoc from my draigo list as I found he was only saving around 2 wounds a game which just isn't enough. As for not saying you are a good player it has been implied by your win loss ratio with your army (presuming truth which I have no reason to doubt you) I have also experienced a ratio almost Identical to yours with my BAs multiply it by 3 and it's very close. I have not however achieved antyhign liek that with my draigo wing, I'm still working on lists however I find i get more draws than you, its hard to loose as they are tough and can generally always contest but I wonder what you are doing differently.

Could you please post examples of your 1750 and 2500 point lists, if not tin this forum then in a PM to me I would love to take a look and get some advice from you on my list and why yours is working so well for you.

 

Anyway guys, apart from getting a little heated at the end this info is actually useful (especially when yout ake the time to throw in some numbers to support arguements) and is actually appreciated. At least by me.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Zagman]

@Crynn

PM sent with all of my Point Level lists, I didn't feel like removing pt values. I'd be curious to see your BA list. I tend to win well enough with my BA, but they currently don't hold a candle to my DriagoWing.