Just played my 46th draigo wing game

[greatcrusade08]

Great Crusade, always a great debater mate, could you please post something similar to your list or give an example to how much a 'bucket of dice is' in your case because it is a relative term and it would be interesting to see what kind of stuff you are talking about throwing down here. I do understand you aren't talking about killing them all just a few so their numbers drop.

 

At the time i was using the assaulty elements of my army to tackle the other parts of his army so i was left with

10 snipers with telion and ML (frag)

10 bolter scouts with HB (hellfire)

10 scout bikes with twin bolters and 3 grenade launchers (rapid fire at S3 template)

2 thunderfire cannons

 

although i believe the bikes were down to 7 by the time i started firing them.

[Crynn]

Great Crusade, always a great debater mate, could you please post something similar to your list or give an example to how much a 'bucket of dice is' in your case because it is a relative term and it would be interesting to see what kind of stuff you are talking about throwing down here. I do understand you aren't talking about killing them all just a few so their numbers drop.

 

At the time i was using the assaulty elements of my army to tackle the other parts of his army so i was left with

10 snipers with telion and ML (frag)

10 bolter scouts with HB (hellfire)

10 scout bikes with twin bolters and 3 grenade launchers (rapid fire at S3 template)

2 thunderfire cannons

 

although i believe the bikes were down to 7 by the time i started firing them.

 

Using math and my pretty good experience with all those units I would say they could whittle down some pallies, the thunderfires slowing there advance will help alot too, the snipers and the bolters do little but it all adds up, the problem is doing that dmg consistantly without having many of those units blown away by the paladins although you have cover and what not, also it depends how big the game is I mean at 1500 draigo pallies and a lib is almost the entire things so if you whittle it down slowly you are doing just fine. 1750 still to some degree.

 

In regards to the ammount of wounds done per turn I'm going to presume that we have a clever player and he spreads his pallies a bit (though this can make them unweildy) so tempaltes will only hit two on a hit. you can make them only hit 1. scouts do 2 wound tellion does 1 as will a missile will do 1 so 4 total, scout bikers do 5.25 with bolers then with rapid fire krak, more effective than frag = 1.66. Bolter scouts do 5, then thunderfire I"m going on a hit (2 guys) then a slight hit (1 guy) repeat cycle. which means 6 hits per cannon. one wounds on 2's the other on 4's to force difficult terrain so that your units can stay in rapid fire range without getting assaulted. so that gives 5 wounds from 1 3 from the other for a total of...

 

29.9 so that works out to 5 wounds a turn after saves which isnt bad but because they do wounds in lots of 4 or 5 the pallies that take a wound are then not picked to recieve the next lot of wounds so it will still take a bit to kill 1.

 

Lots of generalization there, spreading units, templates hitting but there are too many variable to do this with all things considered.

 

I think without the apoc small arms fire can do something but I think it is still disproportionate to the amount of points thrown at the pallies in a lot of cases however another point to make is if a wound flls on a psycannon and then a wound is taken by a lascannon, if you want to make the best of wound allocation you would take of the psycannon however you generally want to keep this model so remove a sword/stormbolter guy instead on full wounds. Just a point.

 

There are definately armies that can do more in the bucket of dice department though.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[greatcrusade08]

Using math and my pretty good experience with all those units I would say they could whittle down some pallies, the thunderfires slowing there advance will help alot too, the snipers and the bolters do little but it all adds up, the problem is doing that dmg consistantly without having many of those units blown away by the paladins although you have cover and what not, also it depends how big the game is I mean at 1500 draigo pallies and a lib is almost the entire things so if you whittle it down slowly you are doing just fine. 1750 still to some degree.

 

In regards to the ammount of wounds done per turn I'm going to presume that we have a clever player and he spreads his pallies a bit (though this can make them unweildy) so tempaltes will only hit two on a hit. you can make them only hit 1. scouts do 2 wound tellion does 1 as will a missile will do 1 so 4 total, scout bikers do 5.25 with bolers then with rapid fire krak, more effective than frag = 1.66. Bolter scouts do 5, then thunderfire I"m going on a hit (2 guys) then a slight hit (1 guy) repeat cycle. which means 6 hits per cannon. one wounds on 2's the other on 4's to force difficult terrain so that your units can stay in rapid fire range without getting assaulted. so that gives 5 wounds from 1 3 from the other for a total of...

 

29.9 so that works out to 5 wounds a turn after saves which isnt bad but because they do wounds in lots of 4 or 5 the pallies that take a wound are then not picked to recieve the next lot of wounds so it will still take a bit to kill 1.

 

Lots of generalization there, spreading units, templates hitting but there are too many variable to do this with all things considered.

 

thats why mathhammer is pants.. my t-fires usually get alot more than 6 hits.

IIRC he had to go through cover i then gave him a small speedbump and rolled poorly for consolidation.. he wasnt able to spread 2" between each model, the bikers frag greandes work better if you get them clumped up, mathhammer cant help you with those decisions.

i was forcing enough saves to cover most pallies with both the t-fires and bikers, i dont bother with the tremor rounds either, i go for straight 2+ wounds every time.

 

edit: this is why i didnt want to post my list, no matter what i posted it will never be good enough to damage these precious paladins.. if i did well it had nothing to do with my skill and was probably down to a poor opponent, or i got lucky..

its never been about what my list can do, there are many many lists that do buckets of dice better

 

btw rapid firing krak grenades at BS3 is 2.49 wounds

 

further edit: and i actually fell into the trap of being led off topic from our original discussion.. which was whether or not apothecaries are worth taking..

@Zagman you claim im being as close minded on this subject, but ive already agreed that if your local meta is more about melta spam than buckets of dice then no apoths is probably a wise choice.. however i said that if like thade your meta contains more of the latter then ina large unit to offset the benefit cost ratio, an apoth would be worht it.

you flat out deny an apoth is worth taking full stop...

 

also just so you know, just becuase you were one of the first tor un this list, doesnt preclude it from being a netlist.. note i never called you a netlister, just that draigowing IS a netlist, im sure there are many salamanders players in the same little boat

[Crynn]

Using math and my pretty good experience with all those units I would say they could whittle down some pallies, the thunderfires slowing there advance will help alot too, the snipers and the bolters do little but it all adds up, the problem is doing that dmg consistantly without having many of those units blown away by the paladins although you have cover and what not, also it depends how big the game is I mean at 1500 draigo pallies and a lib is almost the entire things so if you whittle it down slowly you are doing just fine. 1750 still to some degree.

 

In regards to the ammount of wounds done per turn I'm going to presume that we have a clever player and he spreads his pallies a bit (though this can make them unweildy) so tempaltes will only hit two on a hit. you can make them only hit 1. scouts do 2 wound tellion does 1 as will a missile will do 1 so 4 total, scout bikers do 5.25 with bolers then with rapid fire krak, more effective than frag = 1.66. Bolter scouts do 5, then thunderfire I"m going on a hit (2 guys) then a slight hit (1 guy) repeat cycle. which means 6 hits per cannon. one wounds on 2's the other on 4's to force difficult terrain so that your units can stay in rapid fire range without getting assaulted. so that gives 5 wounds from 1 3 from the other for a total of...

 

29.9 so that works out to 5 wounds a turn after saves which isnt bad but because they do wounds in lots of 4 or 5 the pallies that take a wound are then not picked to recieve the next lot of wounds so it will still take a bit to kill 1.

 

Lots of generalization there, spreading units, templates hitting but there are too many variable to do this with all things considered.

 

thats why mathhammer is pants.. my t-fires usually get alot more than 6 hits.

IIRC he had to go through cover i then gave him a small speedbump and rolled poorly for consolidation.. he wasnt able to spread 2" between each model, the bikers frag greandes work better if you get them clumped up, mathhammer cant help you with those decisions.

i was forcing enough saves to cover most pallies with both the t-fires and bikers, i dont bother with the tremor rounds either, i go for straight 2+ wounds every time.

 

edit: this is why i didnt want to post my list, no matter what i posted it will never be good enough to damage these precious paladins.. if i did well it had nothing to do with my skill and was probably down to a poor opponent, or i got lucky..

its never been about what my list can do, there are many many lists that do buckets of dice better

 

btw rapid firing krak grenades at BS3 is 2.49 wounds

 

further edit: and i actually fell into the trap of being led off topic from our original discussion.. which was whether or not apothecaries are worth taking..

@Zagman you claim im being as close minded on this subject, but ive already agreed that if your local meta is more about melta spam than buckets of dice then no apoths is probably a wise choice.. however i said that if like thade your meta contains more of the latter then ina large unit to offset the benefit cost ratio, an apoth would be worht it.

you flat out deny an apoth is worth taking full stop...

 

also just so you know, just becuase you were one of the first tor un this list, doesnt preclude it from being a netlist.. note i never called you a netlister, just that draigowing IS a netlist, im sure there are many salamanders players in the same little boat

 

My appologies i made them wound on 4+ instead of 2+. As for math hammer not woking this is untrue that is just an extremely complex problem to be looking at. As for clumping up more well that is silly for the opponent to do so against templates but lets say he does and you cause some how another 9 wounds thats still only 1.5 wounds after armour. Now I think this is a good effort, I wasnt saying it did rubbish.

 

On the grounds of not using trrmor round if you rapid fire the scouts and scout bikers and don't use them id is very likely you will then get charged and loose both units to combat ina round for the sake of maybe doing 1 extra wound? i think is veery foolish, halting ther advance is far more important than cause i couple of extra armour saves.

 

Either way, we all know your list has other components and I'm not saying it did bad, I'm proving infact it can wittle using mass fire power. I am also showing how even with that it can still be somewhat difficult to force them to remove models in the first few turns. Both yours and Zagman's arguements can be true, yes you can whittle them down without an apoc and yes they can still find this less scary than str 8 ap 2 shots removing the need for a apoc in a lot of cases.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[greatcrusade08]

Both yours and Zagman's arguements can be true, yes you can whittle them down without an apoc and yes they can still find this less scary than str 8 ap 2 shots removing the need for a apoc in a lot of cases.

 

Regards,

Crynn

 

ah yes but then i never said melta spam couldnt work, infact quite the opposite.. i did however state that single melta weapons like in a tac squad and from a dread or single speeder or whatever usually gets pawned off on draigo making the paladins quitre safe from single weapons.

spam is needed.

What im saying is that there are other ways to do the job, other ways which can be nullyfied by taking an apothecary..

 

this is not me and Zagman arguing over which ways the best, its me trying to point out a different method and Zagman being too stubborn and too much of a "know it all" to acknowledge it

 

On the grounds of not using trrmor round if you rapid fire the scouts and scout bikers and don't use them id is very likely you will then get charged and loose both units to combat ina round for the sake of maybe doing 1 extra wound? i think is veery foolish, halting ther advance is far more important than cause i couple of extra armour saves.

a clever gamer would use a strategically placed speedbump to prevent a charge to other units, in this case i used the terrain as a natural shield on one flank and the bolter scouts were also in terrain meaning the paladins would have needed a good roll in the assault phase.. my opponent opted to charge the speedbump rather than risk a failed charge..

unlike with melta weapons it doesnt matter if i offer a cover save to my enemy when im shooting "small arms"

 

also the benefits of firing frag grenades over krak, is that frags dont roll to hit as such and are far more likely to hit than BS3 ones.. again something which cannotbe easily mathhammered.. even if it could be, who would want to do all that math?

[Crynn]

agreed, and I was only confirming what you were saying that there are other mesures just slightly less effective, I thought I made that prett clear. In ragards to your speed humps and terrain points, all true.

 

I wasn't trying to foil your arguement mate.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

10 snipers with telion and ML (frag)

 

Sniper rifles: 5 hit and 2.5 wound + missile: hits and 1 wound

(3.5 wounds)

 

10 bolter scouts with HB (hellfire)

- Assuming you don't place them in rapid fire range as they'll get charged

 

Bolters: 5 hit & 2.5 wound + HB: 1.5 hit and 1 wound

(2.5 wounds)

 

10 scout bikes with twin bolters and 3 grenade launchers (rapid fire at S3 template)

- Okay so this is a throw away unit as they'll be in charge range

 

Bolters: 7 hit & 3.5 wound + grenade launchers: 3 hit & 1 wound (Paladins all spaced 2" apart)

(4.5 wounds)

 

2 thunderfire cannons

 

12 templates (S6?) - 9 hit & 7 wound

(7 wounds)

 

So I'm only getting a total of around 18 wounds... So three Paladins lost one wound each. All this coming from around a total of five units... So you're ignoring a big chunk of the rest of the GK army. We can assume the Paladins shoot and charge the scout bikers, routing them. So the next round you're putting out around 14 wounds... The two remaining unwounded Paladins both take a wound then they torrent another squad, most likely routing them as well. If we take into account other GK units I doubt the scout force will be able to generate two turns of shooting unmolested. For example an NDK with PT and HI torches Telion and his squad. To me buckets of dice is in the order of 30 or more each turn.

 

G :D

[Commander Sasha]

Excuse me...

This has been a long an interesting thread about DRAIGOWING, and one which I have followed with enthusiasm, as Nurglez is my main opponent, and I personally will be making sure that even if his army CAN'T do well in a tournament, he can be assured of not coming last at Kthulu, 'cos I'm playing!

 

Please can we have (yet more) threads about mathhammer or Scout armies elsewhere? The past 2 pages of this have strayed far from the original theme.

 

Peace&Love, gentlemen.

[nurglez]

Cheers Sasha, I agree. Math hammer has its place, but dont get me started on probability and statistics please... The only hammering I want to see in this thread is about how many daemon hammers you need ;)

[thade]

I'm about the furthest thing from a mod on this site, but...guys. Really? Chill. It. Out. The last thing I want is for this thread to get locked; I love this thread.

 

If buckets of dice do not scare some of you, I'm very jealous. The last time an Ork player threw 36*2.5 (two and a half dice cubes worth of the lil dice) at me on a charge, I felt it. That many swings means I am going to be making a lot of saves. 1/6th of those will be failures. When that happens, I am very grateful for for my Apothecaries; I always field two to three of them, because that additional 4+ has helped me weather those massive waves of dice. My experiences with Apothecaries has been very positive. I will continue to take them with my marines and I already have one assembled for the Paladins.

 

Nurglez, are you going to Ard Boyz? (Do you have Ard Boyz at the same time we do in the States?) What list are you bringing?

[Zagman]

ah yes but then i never said melta spam couldnt work, infact quite the opposite.. i did however state that single melta weapons like in a tac squad and from a dread or single speeder or whatever usually gets pawned off on draigo making the paladins quitre safe from single weapons.

spam is needed.

What im saying is that there are other ways to do the job, other ways which can be nullyfied by taking an apothecary..

 

this is not me and Zagman arguing over which ways the best, its me trying to point out a different method and Zagman being too stubborn and too much of a "know it all" to acknowledge it

 

So glad you degraded the thread to pure insults now. Lots of dice can work, but in my experience has not been the biggest threat to DriagoWing. You also assume that Driago is in every paladin squad you talk about which is not always the case. Lone meltas work quite well against any squad that doesn't have Driago in it.

 

How many games have you played against DraigoWing? What point level? Results?

 

We are here to have constructive debates, to learn, to share our experiences, don't degrade it to petty name calling.

 

@Thade

The easiest way to avoide 2.5 cubes of dice is to not get charged by full units. DriagoWing has a 24" engagement range which is more than enough to keep even a Ghazgul Horde at range for two for three turns. With Sanctuary and effective use of terrain you can limit the number of models that reach combat or can effectively fight in it. When my opponent did reach combat he was fighting with less than full strength squads against Draigo and 10 paladins. And I wasn't letting him charge with multiple units either thanks to terrain and Sanctuary. Needless to say he had very few models actually swinging. That is how I fought against the Green Horde. Had they been shooty boyz, I would have taken a different strategy which would have involved me closing the gap further.

[thade]

I'm all for using terrain and powers to keep Orks from charging, but with a Waaagh a Green Tide is going to get something into melee with the Paladins. They'll do well, I grant you, but even a dice cube is still a lot of dice. Eventually, terrain and Sanc will not stay enough of them and you will have some dice cubes on you. Having studied and worked in network security, I'm a bit of a "cover all my bases" freak; the day I fail to keep those dice cubes from coming, they will have to contend with my absurdly over-the-top durability. Meanwhile, my gun-less Apothecary will be throwing S5 pie plates around for lolz.

 

Honestly, any one of us claiming or implying "I have more experience with/against Draigo wing than others" is proving nothing: this codex hasn't been out nearly long enough for anybody to venture experience as anything more than a "this has worked so far for my local meta". Appeals to authority don't add anything to an argument anyway.

 

If there's a threat to DW from something, whether you have to deal with it locally or not, it's no less valid. No reason to not keep it in mind.

[nurglez]

Haven't had too much trouble with orks, holocaust is pretty good vs them, as long as you still have Draigo and a libby for +2 str to wound on 2s. And a pt dk with hi works wonders, was taking off 12 orks every time I placed the template :)

 

Also sanctuary really messes up orks, the bigger the horde the better :)

 

That's the problem with math hammer, it is used in a vacum, and assumes averages. How often does a full squad shoot at another full squad at optimum range?

 

As far as I know we don't have ard boys in the UK. And I don't know what i would bring for a 2500 point game, though I'd probably be able to fit in at least 1 apothecary then heh. We've got throne of skulls which is 1750, which I'm going to.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

I'm all for using terrain and powers to keep Orks from charging, but with a Waaagh a Green Tide is going to get something into melee with the Paladins. They'll do well, I grant you, but even a dice cube is still a lot of dice. Eventually, terrain and Sanc will not stay enough of them and you will have some dice cubes on you.

 

Agreed on all points. Orks aren't a good match up for Paladins, *especially* Green Tide. Any list has a weakness and some more than others. Clearly a super elite, super small model count army is going to have problems facing 200 orks. On the other hand, a Logan based missile spam list will do fairly awful against Paladins.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Haven't had too much trouble with orks, holocaust is pretty good vs them, as long as you still have Draigo and a libby for +2 str to wound on 2s. And a pt dk with hi works wonders, was taking off 12 orks every time I placed the template :tu:

 

Is this with an actual Green Tide? I mean, all your expensive Paladins are shooting their few guns and killing... 6 or 8 point boyz? Same with close combat. Sure the DK can cause a lot of damage, but if it ever gets in CC, if it doesn't die from the buckets o'dice, which it easily can since it isn't a dreadnaught, it will spend each turn killing 18 points of orks. Which is far from impressive.

[nurglez]

I've played vs a kan wall with battlewagon nobs, kan wall with a few 30 boy squads, and some other combinations. I have said many times that I have never played in a tourny (all that will change soon I hope), My orky friend (well he plays orks, he isn't green or anything) doesn't have enough models to do a green horde, and has tried a few different lists and is also coming to the tourny (and is yet to beat my draigo wing, best he came was a draw where I only had 1 model left...).

 

Depending on the mission, the terrain, the player and luck, covers a lot of variables. Good deployment and movement can work well with an elite force against a numerically superior force (one game I remember I charged draigo and 5 paladins into what was a 30 boy shoota squad at the start of my turn, killed them in their turn with only a few wounds/death's caused).

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I played versus a battlewagon list at WargamesCon this summer. I won the game on kill points easy but it would have been very tough in an objective based mission.

 

G

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

I just wanted to touch back on the Apothecary topic that was being discussed a couple of pages back. I have played several games now with a 1K list that is basically a deathstar with Apothecary. And with a low model count, most, if not all fire is being targeted on the unit. So being able to roll for the few hits that get through is priceless. I am 1 and 1 now against my friends DE and even with only a single storm shield against his 9 dark lance shots I still make him sweat, Keith Sweat.

 

http://blogs.centrictv.com/shows/oncentric/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/KeithSweat-RidinSolo.jpg

 

End of Line

[John Silver]

Hello all!

 

Also start to play GK and in love with Paladin theme... Already make all names and only waiting for arrive of the models...

 

I plan to use such list, that something different from all Pal list

 

Lord Kaldor Draigo (HQ) @ 275 Pts

 

Librarian (HQ) @ 185 Pts

Servo-skull (x2); Might of Titan; Quicksilver; Sanctuary; The Shrouding; Warp Rift

 

Techmarine (Elites) @ 110 Pts

Power Weapon; Boltgun; Blind Grenades; Psychotroke grenades; Servo-harness

 

10 Paladin Squad (Troops) @ 685 Pts

Paladin 1 (Master-crafted Psycannon; Nemesis Force Halberd)

Paladin 2 (Psycannon; Nemesis Force Swords)

Paladin 3 (Psycannon; Nemesis Daemon Hammer)

Paladin 4 (Psycannon; Nemesis Force Halberd)

Paladin 5 (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Force Halberd)

Paladin 6 (Storm Bolter; Master-crafted Nemesis Force Halberd)

Paladin 7 (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Force Swords)

Paladin 8 (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Daemon Hammer)

Paladin 9 (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Warding Stave)

Paladin 10 (Storm Bolter; Brotherhood Banner)

 

5 Paladin Squad (Troops) @ 340 Pts

Paladin 1 (Master-crafted Psycannon; Nemesis Force Halberd)

Paladin 2 (Psycannon; Nemesis Force Halberd)

Paladin 3 (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Daemon Hammer)

Paladin 4 (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Force Halberd)

Paladin 5 (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Warding Stave)

 

3 x 1 Dreadnought (Heavy Support) @ 3x135 Pts

Twin Autocannon (x2); Psybolt Ammunition

 

Models in Army: 21

Minimum Killpoints: 8

Total Army Cost: 2000

 

So what do you think about this list?

[thade]

Looks fine to me. Techmarine with servo-harness and the Mr. Fix-It psychic power will be a nice supplement to three Riflemen: on the occasion they don't get Wreck/Exploded on one shot, he can possibly put a gun back on. I think you'll find the half master-crafted/half normal psycannons will get annoying to roll (but perhaps not as annoying as all master-crafted psycannons)...however, while annoying, certainly useful. ;)

 

No screaming weaknesses that I see. While I'm very much pro-Extra Armor for Dreads (even with Fortitude) the presence of Fortitude means it's not as drastic to leave it out.

 

Dropping the Banner and the Techmarine (or some other amount of point-shuffling) would allow you to take an assassin. Vindicares in particular suit a Draigo-wing well, I feel, because they can pick off the power fist/klaws in units, so even the Paladins that don't have Draigo along for the ride can charge in with very little fear of losing someone to an insta-gib. I'm currently painting a Callidus to try with mine (don't make fun).

 

Nurglez's variant (if memory serves) offers even less kill points, but that's not necessarily a remark against your list; just food for thought.

 

One more note on the Dreads; a Dread without a DCCW is anathema to me. I understand that a Rifleman's intended purpose is to pop transports, and twice the number of autocannons is a huge boon to that task, however whenever I've run Rifleman I've always found them to get mired in an assault by turn three or four (many of my opponents find that a DCCW-less Dread mired in an assault is a problem solved). With a single TL-Autocannon and a DCCW they can still offer anti-APC fire and insta-killing marine fire (got to love S8 autocannons), but if they get charged they can still mulch faces. Then again, that techmarine is no pushover, and he'll be in the neighborhood.

 

Bottom-line: I like it. :) Let us know how it goes.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I like that list. If you're gonna run with a Techmarine then you might as well take the rad grenades as well.

 

G :D

[nurglez]

Aye, I agree, Rad grenades would be the icing on the cake :)

 

If I was going to add a techmarine, I would probbaly give him a warding staff too, as he is a 1 wound model, and an IC too, once he got to combat I'm sure my opponent would try to single him out.

 

Rather similar to my 2000 list, though I have 2 DK's and 1 rifleman dread, where you have a tech marine and 3 rifleman dread's. I'm not a fan of multiple rifleman dread's, I feel they are a bit gimmicky, partly because like longfangs with missiles or obliterators, they are very cost effective and totally own light vehicles.

 

Also having bought 2 DK's, I'm going to use them ;)

 

Also, I'm not sold on quickening, probably because I kept forgetting to cast it (though only vs nids would they have been useful against genestealers, and I haven't had a libby when I've played nids). I do like summoning, especially combined with servo skulls, though it is a bit risky.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I agree on taking a warding stave on the Techmarine for the reasons given.

 

G ;)

[John Silver]

Thank you all for such good and interesting reply

 

I will try to find some points for Warding Staff and Rad grenades...

 

Also good point about Dread CCW, but I think this need to be tested!

 

Nice Idea about Assassin, I will try him...

 

So as I see, I have a lot of things to be tested, and at this moment hoped that packages from GW will go faster to my hand :P

 

I take Techmarine not only for opportunity to take grenades and repair dreads, He also make one ruins 3+ cover, that can really help in game with lot S8 AP 2- opponents on the flags...

[Crynn]

Thank you for providing accurate statistics to your arguements I for one apprecaite it.

I play a half draigowing army and I have found just by keeping cover on them and using shrouding for a 3+ cover save they are very difficult to remove. The only thing that has completely removed them was an army of deathwing in 1750 contain 25 TH/SS termies with 5 cyclones, even then I reduced him to 8 termies and I only had 9 palies draigo and a lib in the unit, the other part to my army was 2 dreads and some intercepetors. The DA player was also extremely lucky on rolls and really should have been tabled, If I posted his saves you would think he was using loaded dice. I do not believe a full draigo list is the most competitive list myself as it can be some what kited and avoided by a good player however as a core for an army they function briliantly. Also I do not even take an apoc as small arms fire is already rather useless against them.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

 

 

Sorry thought this was too funny, but I have to quote myself. It turns out this guy was caught using loaded dice at a tournament, the same dice he used in this game and he still almost lost, game was a draw.