Just played my 46th draigo wing game

[thade]

Loaded dice? That's laaaaame. What a chump.

 

Anyway, Rad Grenades and a Stave on the Techmarine would make him almost capable of solo back-field support for the Dreads. The one thing that bugs me is that he can't soak a combi-melta...but give him five PAGK to hang out with that solves that problem. :lol:

 

Looking forward to bat reps.

[thade]

Something just occurred to me; it's funny, I've spent so much time lately thinking of theoretical weaknesses of a Paladin Deathstar (e.g. multi-melta devs) that the one right in front of me slipped my mind.

 

In most of my recent games I've gone Devastator heavy. One team with four missile launchers...and one team with four lascannons. Typically I combat squad these units in order to maximize how many vehicles they can pot-shot per turn...but against a Draigo list, four lascannon shots (one at BS5) could get exciting. Draigo can only soak one; if you get by three of them, you're going to fail at least one 5+ and lose a Paladin...at up to 48".

 

Now if you were using the Vanilla dex, you could slow down Draigo's assault with a Thunder fire cannon while hammering on them said lascannon shenanigans.

 

Ways I see to deal with this would be outflanking or DSing the Dreadknight close to said Dev squad...giving them a more pressing threat (and, potentially, taking them out before they can do any real damage to the Paladin squad) or DSing the Paladins wholesale to hose said-squad with Psycannon fire.

 

Really this boils down to target priority: you need to focus down the AP2/Insta-kill stuff first. Unlike other units, they're not hte kind of unit you can "hide in an assault" as with a banner they'll basically lollercopter anything they charge off the board in a turn. (Unless my feeling on that is inaccurate?)

 

Forgive me for musing, but well...that's what I do. :) How many of you so far have confronted lists specifically designed to kill Draigo and Friends? What were those lists?

[Zagman]

Using what was at hand we modified by buddies SM list to combat my DriagoWing. At 2.5k he ran 2 Vindicators, a Las Sponson Predator, a MM LR with THSS Termies, 2 MM Ven Dreads in Pods, Tactical with Melta ML in Pod, Tactical with Melta ML? maybe LC?, Tactical with Melta ML in a MM LRC, Nullzone Librarian, and I think that was all of it give or take. Memory is a funny thing.

 

I've faced this list or very small variations of it twice at 2.5k and a couple of times at 2k which were victories. One victory and one draw at 2.5k. Nullzone is very very painful, even more so when THSS termies and Calgar get involved.

 

When it comes down to tackling DriagoWing it isn't terribly difficult to create a list that has the capabilities to do so. But, without tailoring your list to the job many people have much greater difficulty doing so. A 4LC Dev squad sounds like a great idea if you run BA or Longfangs, but for normal SM that is a 310pt unit! Its also a very high target unit. I would shunt a DK or two withing assault range for a Turn 2 assault which limits the damage that squad will do to one or two turns of shooting depending on who rolls first turn. If it fires against Draigo's unit, it only kills one Paladin per turn and one wound to Driago every three firings on average with the potential for much much more.

 

The techmarine idea is interesting, but I feel he becomes way too expensive. The Warding Stave may be a waste as with a single wound he can easily fall to small arms fire that can saturate a unit, or to non PW wounds in CC. He is a utility character that is already pretty pricey for his role IMO.

[Noober]

My thoughts about the apothecary: in my latest tournament I faced GK, SW, TAU and IG.

 

GK: All those storm bolter and psycannons and only psyflemans having str8+. Apothecary was worth every penny. I saved like 6-8 FNP saves and would've lost a few models without it.

 

SW: Apothecary was pretty much useless. I was tarpitted by 2 lone wolfs and 4 thunderwolves just enough for him to just sit on objectives and win the game by pretty much ignoring my deathstar. Opponent had a bit luck with saves and played better than me.

 

TAU: Apothecary was worth his points as many of my paladins had 1 wound left at the end of the game because of all that plasma. If I hadn't had the apothecary I would have definitely lost many models as my FNP saves were very lucky and I saved like 8/10. Without the apo I would've had to take 1-2 LD tests and lost firepower. Definitely worth the 75pts.

 

IG: Not much to say here as I took a huge risk and failed = he tank shocked my 1200+ point deathstar off the board. He had loads of infantry, 4 hydras and 6 chimeras so I imagine the apothecary would've been worth his points if the game had gone to turn 5-7.

 

I understand why someone doesn't want to take the apothecary. 75pts is a LOT for something you already excel at, but for me the apothecary has earned his place in my paladin deathstar.

[thade]

1200-points?! Egads, man, what are you equipping them with? haha Or do you mean more than one unit?

[Zagman]

1200-points?! Egads, man, what are you equipping them with? haha Or do you mean more than one unit?

 

I assume it was 10 paladins, 4 psycannons, some MCing, Driago, Apothecary, and a decked out Librarian pushes 1200.

[thade]

Ah. I hadn't factored in the Libby + Draigo to that cost; that would do it.

 

I sympathize. My first tournament ever my uber killy-death unit was tank-shocked off the table on Turn 2. Stupid Dawn of War deployment.

 

That is an inherent weakness in this list. If you fail that (admittedly hard to fail Ld check on a Tank Shock!) show's over. ;) They'll shepard your only unit right off the table.

 

Maybe you can intercept the would-be chasers with your other stuff (DKs, other Pally unit) to give your guys breathing room to rally...but that's a scary time right there.

[Noober]

Tank shocking is imo the easiest way to get rid of 10 paladins with draigo and librarian. I'd gladly pay extra points to get a reroll or fearless. Just change our banner to give rerolls instead of autoactivating force weapons... ;)

 

I'm going to a small tournament tomorrow with my draigowing. I can write small battle reports again if you want to know how it went.

[nurglez]

That would be great, it'd nice to see how other people play ;)

[thade]

I'm going to a small tournament tomorrow with my draigowing. I can write small battle reports again if you want to know how it went.

Yes, please! Good luck!!

[Zagman]

Well, just played Ard Boyz Prelims with my DriagoWing(Driago, Librarian, 20 Paladins, 3 Dread Knights) ... and here is the story of my sorrows...

 

Round 1 VS MSU Dark Eldar

23 Blasters, 6 Dark Lances.... Going to be painful

 

With the 5 KP traitor model he had 30 KPs vs my 12. I managed to scout my three PT DKs and had first turn. Thanks to some very very nasty DK damage thanks to 12" scout moves and my Librarian's shrouding I was able to survive with the Traitor, Librarian, and 6 Paladins for a 22pt Massacre.

 

Round 2 VS a unfocused Orc list

Battle Wagons, Shoots, Nob Bikers, etc

 

He managed to score a rather successful Major Victory 1st round to end up my opponent against another weaker opponent. The game was very ugly, very very much so. Though I had taken quite a few wounds only 1 Paladin fell, and that was to a Power Klaw. I Massacred him for a 22pt victory.

 

Round 3 VS BA

2 Fast Vindicators, Storm Raven, Libby Dread, Astorath, Dante, Assault Marines with melta, some Infernus Pistols, a Blood Talon Furioso, DC, etc.

 

I've played and beat this player's BA the last only four times we've met with my DriagoWing. Never easy, but very doable. Long story shorty, two bad rolls cost me 40% of my army. I DSed 10" the exact wrong direction and lost 5 paladins. My Librarian and his squad of Paladins got tank shocked in revenge by a demolisherless Vindicator and ran away. Don't really want to think about it.....

 

Any way I still managed 3rd and made it past Prelims. Now will come the real test of my DriagoWing.

[thade]

Tank shocking is a real threat with such a small force; I fear that at a tournie with three+ battles at it, you'll get tank shocked enough times that there's a real risk of failing the check. Very rough. :( I'm considering shifting the balance of weapons in my unit from mostly halberds...or attaching a cheap Inquisitor with a combi-melta for a Death-or-Glory Hail Mary Play. Not sure how else to mitigate tank shocks, other than killing tanks early. No small task with today's focused on mechanization.

 

Still, sounds like you polished off your first two opponents without too much trouble. :) Congrats on pushing through prelims!

[Zagman]

Its been my first failed tank shock with my DriagoWing. Only took one though.... Losing the Paladins Turn 2, and the Librarian and Paladins Turn 3 really left a bad taste and cost me first.

[nurglez]

I haven't been yanked shocked too often, but have had a unit fall back off the table (they had walked on the turn earlier). And it sure does suck. I will rarely deepstrike a unit of paladins unless there is a servo skull nearby, however it is always a risky option, and when it does work its wonderful heh.

 

Maybe using DK's to screen the paladins from tank shock? Though last time I death or gloried with a dk vs a rhino the dice decided death...

[Zagman]

I don't think Trying to screen against something that happens less than one out of ten times is the way to go. It falls under acceptable risk IMO.

 

I DS occasionally, and usually do it in relatively safe places. Had I rolled a 9" for scatter I would have been fine and had side shots on a vindicator. I may DS a unit or two of paladins once in four or five games.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don't see tank shock as a major deterrent versus Draigowing. You can always swing with a hammer if you want to take that risk.

 

G :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here are my results in the Ard Boyz preliminary yesterday -

 

1st round vs. Templars (killpoints)

Minor win. My opponent had a Vindi with PotMS, shot the heck out of it - must have penned it at least 6-7 times but could only shake it at best... It was a major pain and kept me from playing more aggressively. Last turn my deathstar came out and cracked open a landraider in close combat to secure the win.

 

2nd round vs. Necrons (Seize Ground)

Massacre with full bonus points... Phased out the toasterheads on turn 2 with a huge multi assault into four squads of Warriors (took out the Nightbringer with Warp Rift).

 

3rd round vs. IG (victory points)

Lost this one... Very little terrain to block LOS... NDK failed hard.

 

Ended up taking 2nd place overall so I'll be moving onto the semis.

 

G :P

[nurglez]

ouch, phase out in the second turn? poor poor necrons...

[Noober]

I ran my paladin list in a small 3 round tournament with 26 players. 2000 points.

 

My list was Draigo, Librarian, 10 Paladins, 3 Paladins, 1 Paladin, 2 Psyflemans and a land raider redeemer.

 

1st round vs SW, Seize Ground (5 objectives)

SW had 3 squads of missile long fangs, 3 TWC lords, 3 TWC, 4x 5man grey hunters, 3 rifle dreads. It ended up being a clash of death stars where paladins crushed the TWC, Kaldor soloed pretty much all the long fangs. My land raider squad was 3 paladins with librarian who killed 3 units of grey hunters. My 2 psyflemans had a long ranged duel on the other side of the board with his 3 riflemans. He immobilized one and I wrecked all 3... B) 10-0 victory!

 

2nd round vs CSM, Seize Ground (5 objectives)

CSM had 2x Lash princes, a squad of obliterators, 2x defilers, 2x 5man terminators, 3 squads of troops in rhinos (plague marines, chaos marines and thousand sons). Both defilers were taken care of in 2 turns of shooting from my psyflemans. Both princes died to shooting from my paladins. Princes had a hard time getting lashes off because of reinforced aegis from dreads and hood from the librarian. I made a huge mistake when I forgot to unload my unit out of the land raider to assault the oblies, needless to say...the land raider was exploded on the following turn by the oblies. Despite the mistake I won objectives 3-1. 7-3 victory!

 

Last round vs GK, Annihilation with 3 objectives (each worth 2 killpoints)

Final table! This match would most likely decide the winner of the tournament. His list was 3x 5man purifiers in razorbacks, 4x 5man GKSS in razorbacks, one 10man GKSS walking with Coteaz, 3 Psyflemans. My psyflemans both wrecked one razorback on turn one but were then wrecked by lucky rolling from my opponent (one penetrating shot to each and both of them were 5 <_< ). I made a mistake with the landraider. I was sure I could get the charge but I was left 1/5 inch short. Also I walked my paladins too arrogantly in the middle of the board, instead I should have come from the flank so that the whole army couldn't shoot the paladins. I ended up eating huge amounts of SB + psycannon fire for 3 turns which made me running for my life behind a big los block to survive until the end of the game. Apothecary was man of the match for me. I must have saved like 10 fnp saves during the game. 4-6 loss!

 

I ended up being in 3rd place with 3 other players. It was a good result for me considering how stupid mistakes I made during the last two games.

 

I loved my list. Even the lonely land raider which was worth the points in every match. It gave cover to the paladins and took a lot of hits which is a good thing because all that fire power would've then gone to the paladins.

[thade]

ouch, phase out in the second turn? poor poor necrons...

Dropping a C'tan with Warp Rift was particularly brutal. No offense intended B.O. - I'm sure you're a skilled commander - but I think that particular win can be chalked up to the codex needing an update. Bad. :P

[RebG]

Black Orange - Little question for you.

 

Just briefly, how do you think you'd fight against Paladins along the lines of your or Nurglez's (i.e 10 man Draigo deathstar) lists with a Blood Angel assault based force?

 

I don't want to distract too much from the main thread but thought it'd be interesting being an experienced BA general as you are. RAS don't do enough damage to avoid dying once struck back - bolt pistols aren't much of a worry and the odd melta gun doen't have the chance for more than one kill really. DC are impaled on halberds before they hit. Lone Stormravens are left on the floor due to 6 psycannon pointed their way. Is there anything in a 'typical' BA assault force can do? Multiple assault with everything at once?

 

Also, to everyone else, for us non-Paldins looking in on this is there anything (except for maybe Dark Eldar) that worries your 10 man squads? Any units you really, really don't want to see bearing down on you? Be interesting to see what you say :)

[Captain Idaho]

Also, to everyone else, for us non-Paldins looking in on this is there anything (except for maybe Dark Eldar) that worries your 10 man squads? Any units you really, really don't want to see bearing down on you? Be interesting to see what you say :)

 

Yeah spill the beans. :)

[thade]

Personally, I would spam lascannon Devastators and flank them with anti-MC units (Meph, Sternguard, and power-fist equipped assault/tac teams) and invoke the Emperor's name with every cast of my dice.

[Meatman]

Dreads could work quite well. Only the Hammers can really hurt them in combat, and Strength 10 power weapon will kill 1 or 2 a turn? Multi-melta attack bikes, lascannon preds, and to a lesser effect, plasma command squads.

 

Vindicators are the obvious answer. I saw a triple vindicator list trash a GK army on Saturday.

 

Oh, and the Phobus (sp?) pattern land raider. 48" is a long way to travel when being hit by 2 twin-linked lascannons a turn.

[Zagman]

@RebG

 

I may be able to answer some of your questions as I faced both of the armies in question at my Ard Boyz and play BA myself.

 

23 Blasters and 6 DLs is a significant amount of firepower and greatly greatly reduced most of my army Round one. Only because I played about as well as possible with first Turn did I manage the Massacre. Trueborn with 4 Blasters each were my first targets. I would have targeted the Ravagers, but they never were withing my range, and spend one turn out of range. I relied on a 3+ cover save and Draigo to soak most of the damage. I lost 4 DKs, 13 Paladins, and Draigo.

 

I faced an Assaulty BA list with 2 Vindicators, a SR, Lib Furioso, Blood Talon Furioso, 2 Assault Squads with meltas, a Plasma Tactical, Sanguinary Guard, Dante, Astorath, and a 5 man DC. I've played this player before and beaten him, though it has always taken a toll.

 

Taking 2 Demolisher templates, 4 bloodstrike missiles, a TLLC, and a TLMM can cause some serious damage; I got lucky and took minimal casualties Turn 1. The only thing that saved me was Shrouding. Driago and the 8 remaining members of his squad got assaulted by 5 Sanguinary Guard with one powerfist, Astorath, 5 DC with two power weapons, and a 10 man assault squad with meltas and a fist. Driago was nerfed and fell to Astorath and the remaining 3 Sang Guard. That's what it took to take them in assault. It was a blood bath.

 

Any unit capable of dealing multiple S8+ AP2- wounds take priority. Units that I have faced that have really scared me have been:

Anything with a demolisher cannon

THSS Termies(Especially led by an EW CC monster like Calgar or Lysander)

Ven Dreads(Very difficult to remove as they tend not to die and don't need to target Driago)

Blood Talon Dreads(Can really devastate a squad) DC Talon dreads are very scary as well

3 Obliterators squads

Chosen with 4x melta

Combimeltas

Trueborn/Scourges with 4x Blaster

Ravager

LR with MM

Predator Annihilator

Hidden PF equivalents, less so for full squads of paladins and you can kill them before they swing...usually.

S8+ AP3+ Pieplates to a lesser extent. Volume works.

 

Hope I was able to help.