nurglez Posted August 25, 2011 Author Share Posted August 25, 2011 I think I'll let you wait the 8 days :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatman Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Ha. Really looking forward to it mate :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 I think I'll let you wait the 8 days :cuss Haha good move mate. Although we all know you took two dreadkinghts. Onto other points. Ultramarine players may have been saying take dreads so they can shoot them. Dreads yes Ven dreads no. As I showed a venerable is Significantly more difficult for rockets to kill over a dreadknight, simple math, and if those landspeeders have MM's then they will do ok against shunting dread or worse your paladins, they will never get close enough to use their MM on a dread because as soon as a landspeeders rears its hull next turn it's dead against a dread not so with a dreadknight where the landspeeder will just keep chipping away at your units. Then DS 3 oblits to MM one. You do realize on average units don't come down till turn three which means by just taking the dread you have avoided 6 lascannon shots! so you are already up on that dread knight which would just shunt up and cop twin linked rapid frie plasma and just die turn 1. If it didn't shunt it will die quicker too lascannons than the dread, another example of a dread being a significantly better choice but lets say that you have no warp quake so the oblits can DS within 12" of the dread. Now if you know they are deep striking then just wrap a few paladins around the back of it to give it cover while they walk up. so 3 DS in shoot 3 times hit twice almost instantly pen then have a 25% chance to destroy it on the dmg chart needing a 4+ 4+ with another 4+ cover save after that. SO your 3 DS = dead dread comment is actually only a 3 oblits DS in have a lowly 25% chance to kill it and even once they make the dmg table each shot has a 30% chance of doing nothing but stun the dread because chaos with no psychic defence cant then stop the dread from just passing an ld 10 psychic check to pretend it never happened. Now lets look at what that does to a DK when 3 oblits ds in or you just shunt up to them to attemp to do something, oh and your dk can be lashed and pulled into rapid fire plasma range or into combat with abaddon and things of this nature where as I don't believe a dread can. 6 twin linked plasma shots do a total of 2.4 wounds, and on a side note it is more likely for the dread knight to get unlucky and die to the plasma fire than it is for the dread to get unlucky and die to the 3 MMs so even in your example the dread is still tougher in every instance! Yes Math-hammer but it is just the truth. Another major factor. The dread is providing those paladins with psychic defence which they desperately need. lash? at ld 6 is fine but at ld 9 means your paladins can suffer as with a psycher battle squad reducing you to Ld2 then making you run or BA libs with fear of darkness. Many offensive powers can be stopped by having a dread, it is more than just a set of guns. Also the dread is cheaper by about 45 points over one with a heavy incin and about 70 points cheaper than one with the heavy incin and a sword. Sure we all have defferent opinions on which may be the better unit but surely by pure cost efficiency you can see the dread is an overall better choice. Regards, 35 - 70 points is alot in a drago list. that is mastercrafting on all the psycannons + 3 extra powers for a lib or in the 70 point instant it's that plus a warding staff + a couple MCrafting for full wound allocation or more servo skulls. Random bit of trivia, a Ven dread with a twin linked autocannon and a Nemesis doom fist will beat a a sword weilding DK in CC on average because his fist is a force weapon. Dread knights really are completely over priced. Regards, Crynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 I would love for a CSM player to DS their Obilts next to my dread. They will die the next turn for sure. :cuss G :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted August 26, 2011 Author Share Posted August 26, 2011 Just because I've been defending the DK over a dread doesn't mean I dont see the use of having a dread alongside a draigo wing force. I will even go so far as to say that psyrifle dread's are better then DK's like oblits are better then havocs or how hive guard are better then zoanthropes or a vindicare is better then a calidus. However playing style accounts for a lot. I've always liked dread's, I own about 8-9 of them at least, though due to playing codex chaos I haven't used them that often recently. I also took your suggestion of a venerable dread on board even before you started providing "math hammer evidence". Too many random hapenings have, er, happened in dice based games for me to put much faith in math hammer, I got a friend of mine to program a dice rolling program, using 2 dice, and the curve only appeared once he "rolled" several thousand dice, so I do believe averages will, er, average out, but over a series of games, and even then, you may roll low when you want to roll high and roll high when you want to roll low. When I want to see how things work, I take the dice and roll them myself, I do this a few times, through this I can see that when firing 4 psycannons vs armour 14 (with none twin linked) I should penetrate with around 0-3. math hammer would give 2 rends, and then either 2 pens or 1 glance 1 pen. I can quite easily figure out how much damage certain units should do at certain times, but the "luck" factor keeps cropping up. I was so uncertain about what I wanted, I flipped a coin over it. Maybe not the best thing to do when planning for a tournament, but it helped me decide :cuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 The thing is psyflemen have twin linked autocannons plus they are S8 and 48" range - when you factor in Fortitude as well the odds are very high in their favor. Sure anyone can have some bad dice but as you said over the course of many games it tends to average out. :lol: G :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Just because I've been defending the DK over a dread doesn't mean I dont see the use of having a dread alongside a draigo wing force. I will even go so far as to say that psyrifle dread's are better then DK's like oblits are better then havocs or how hive guard are better then zoanthropes or a vindicare is better then a calidus. However playing style accounts for a lot. I've always liked dread's, I own about 8-9 of them at least, though due to playing codex chaos I haven't used them that often recently. I also took your suggestion of a venerable dread on board even before you started providing "math hammer evidence". Too many random hapenings have, er, happened in dice based games for me to put much faith in math hammer, I got a friend of mine to program a dice rolling program, using 2 dice, and the curve only appeared once he "rolled" several thousand dice, so I do believe averages will, er, average out, but over a series of games, and even then, you may roll low when you want to roll high and roll high when you want to roll low. When I want to see how things work, I take the dice and roll them myself, I do this a few times, through this I can see that when firing 4 psycannons vs armour 14 (with none twin linked) I should penetrate with around 0-3. math hammer would give 2 rends, and then either 2 pens or 1 glance 1 pen. I can quite easily figure out how much damage certain units should do at certain times, but the "luck" factor keeps cropping up. I was so uncertain about what I wanted, I flipped a coin over it. Maybe not the best thing to do when planning for a tournament, but it helped me decide :tu: I can completely understand this and my arguements are purely from a competitive mind set. If there is a theme or a style of play you are going for then absolutely take whatever you like and find ways to apply them in the best manner possible. I thought you were debating this on a competitive front in which case I am still happy to be convinced the DK is the better option but as it stands in my personal opinion the ven dread is your best bet. Regards, Crynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noober Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Nurglez now you absolutely have to take the DK and show everyone how well they perform for YOU! :P I've tried to compare the effectiveness of dread and DKs too, but it's not that simple. Both are very different units for different purposes. Imo psyflemans, normal and ven, are great. The best for the HS slot and I use them regularly. Then again I like the DK for it's possibilities to be so much more than the dreadnaught. Especially in lists with a GM to give scouting. Versatile, fast and potential turn 1 assaults should be considered too, not just who dies first to deepstriking oblis. Ven dread is more durable but the DK has much more destructive power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Versatile, fast and potential turn 1 assaults should be considered too just a query, how do NDKs get 1st turn assaults, i thought the shunt doesnt allow for assaults afterwards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noober Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 12" scout move after deployment, then another 12" and 6" assault. That is 30" assault range first turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 12" scout move after deployment, then another 12" and 6" assault. That is 30" assault range first turn. ah your using grand strat to give them scout ability... ok that makes sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Versatile, fast and potential turn 1 assaults should be considered too just a query, how do NDKs get 1st turn assaults, i thought the shunt doesnt allow for assaults afterwards? It can still be done, you just give it scout allowint it move 12 inches then first turn it moves another 12 inches followed by 6 inch charge. The only way to pull this off is if you have the first turn otherwise you ahve scouted a DK halfway up the board and it just gets opened up on. Also most smart opponents when they do not have the first turn and see that you have used GS to give a DK scout they will just deploy more than 30 inches from it if that really worries them as they will be deploying second this isn't too hard most of the time. Another small problem is you cannot first turn assault in DoW and you you are unlikely to give it scout over scoring in an non scoring mission. Would anyone ever consider a DK just walking with a heavy incinerator with maybe a hammer? because they are like 100 points cheaperthan the sword, incin jump one? Just wondering. Regards, Crynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 my scouts fear those heavy incinerators.. nasty, nasty things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noober Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 I believe 3x DKs with only incinerators could work as they can deepstrike too. Add 3x venerable dreads with autocannons and coteaz for cheap troops? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 I think cheap is good for them to be honest. with coteaz and 3 vens you still ahve plenty of point of things at 1750 though i'm not sure if 3 vens in necessary maybe just 2 or 1 and 3 normal and add a GM to make the ven one scoring if needs be. You could still fit in plenty of razorback strike squads or henchmen units. Maybe take a lib over the GM? would be an odd list. Regards, Crynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noober Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Can't take normal psyflemans as the DKs take the slots in heavy support. Popping transports with the dreads and then flaming the contents with the DK has some potential. I don't know if the GM is necessary as it costs a lot of points and needs a squad to walk with which costs even more points! B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranting Fool Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 I was so uncertain about what I wanted, I flipped a coin over it. Maybe not the best thing to do when planning for a tournament, but it helped me decide :) How very Orky of you.... :) I wouldn't worry about the Dice Gods as unless you play Vs are Guard friend the Dice Gods love you :D I gota borrow your GK Codex some time, maybe build a list vs your Wolves or Nurgle Marines :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted August 26, 2011 Author Share Posted August 26, 2011 my 2000 point list has 2 dk's and 1 psyrifle dread, 1 dk is my usual HI, PT and GS while the other just has a HI, and has performed decently (though I haven't played that many 2000 point games). Sure I've had games where they have died rather quickly to vendetta's lascannon's. I like using the foot slogging one to provide cover to a squad of paladins behind it. Also outflanking with a MC that can move 12 can be rather fun too, especially when it has the option of shunting once per game. 30 inches from the side covers a lot of ground, especially when equipped with a heavy incinerator, while vs marines/terminators its not that great but it is wonderful vs quite a few units, especially ones that have decent cover saves but 4+ or worse armour saves (scouts, eldar path finders, turbo boosting non sm bikes etc). and can also threaten some vehicles too. On the subject of ven dread's, there are times I have rolled a flurry of 6's vs vehicles for a 6 inch explosion, vs a ven dread that would have still popped it :jaw: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 The problem with Venerable is when you don't roll a destroyed result. The amount of times I lost a Dreadnought Close Combat weapon or was immbolised and got brave and told my opponent to re-roll and they got a destroyed result is not funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thompson Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Really enjoying this thread guys, thanks! I just ordered my first batch of models, since my favorite webshop has a summer sale! :-D Could you give me a rundown of weapons on your 10 man squad per model? I know there's 4 Psycannons, 2 hammers, 1 Falchion and 2 MC-weapons in it, but I can't figure out what each Paladin in the unit would have. Thanks a bunch!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted August 26, 2011 Author Share Posted August 26, 2011 10 paladins Psycannon halberd Psycannon MC halberd Psycannon sword Psycannon hammer Halberd Halberd MC halberd Falchion Sword Hammer Mixing it up, you can put MC's where you want, can even MC storm bolters so you have different weapons :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Just out of interest, but is using this unit a logistical nightmare? You have 10 different models to keep track of and when making attacks by shooting and assault you have to roll a bunch of dice separately because of some getting re-rolls etc. I can imagine it takes ages to use the unit? I would find that frustrating were it not for the fact the unit makes up half the army! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted August 26, 2011 Author Share Posted August 26, 2011 It took a bit of getting used to at first, but as the only MC weps are on close combat weapons, its not a big issue. In the list i'm bringing to Kthulu I add a few more MC'ed weps to make them fully unique, and the MC psycannons may be annoying, but I'm sure I'll deal with it :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 I thought we werent supposed to give out points. The board permits us to give out points provided we don't itemize; i.e. we can state "this captain with these pieces of equipment and powers costs N points"...but we are not allowed to spell out how many points each piece of gear and power cost individually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Just because I've been defending the DK over a dread doesn't mean I dont see the use of having a dread alongside a draigo wing force. This is my stance as well, but a lot of people are on the Dreadnought-side of things. Gives us some perspective for a few of us to be on the other side, so that's where I fell. <3 Also, I personally field a lot of Dreadnoughts with my marine force, including Riflemen. For the sake of variety alone I intend to use Dreadknights almost exclusively for my heavy support choices. If I do field a GK Dread, it will probably never be a Psy-Riflemen, despite their very clear merit in many applications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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