Unintentional Batman Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 I was kinda wonderin... We know that back in the Ullanor days the Hugest Ork Ever almost strangled Emps to death, but then we have the same Emperor at the end of Heresy facing Uber-Horus with Chaos Bonuses in a fight to the death. It's mostly implied in the Ollanius Pius (and later, sadder) fluffs that when the guardsman got killed by Horus Emps finally stopped holding back and vapourized Horus' soul with a thought... So if he was this much a psyker, why almost get strangled by an ork? Why didn't he go around magizapping everyone who opposed him to death? Is there any fluff to imply that using THAT much power (annihilating souls is pretty much something that sounds to be #1 on the PSI powers list) was one of the reasons Emps got into such a bad shape, not just the beating he had recieved in deciding to fight Horus physically? Was it the final Hail Mary from the most powerful human (any?) psyker of all time or had he just been holding back all along, inculding when he was getting strangled by ze Ork? Only way I can personally rationalize this is that using this amount of psychic power added to the physical wounds recieved from Horus combined took down the Emps and he wasn't willing to attemt the soul-destroying trick under any lesser circumstances (he knew he'd be leaving the Empire without functional leadership when he does that), including almost getting strangled. Thoughts on this, anyone? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 He saved Horus once. Maybe he deliberately seemed helpless to let Horus to settle the debt. Fathers do stuff like that. Or that was some kind of super ork who could put Ghazghkull to shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewlay Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 The fact that the Emperor doesn't use his 'Mind Crush!!' power is because of the repercussions of such a powerful ability. Hence why the Emperor is on the Golden throne, because he almost killed himself, killing Horus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 And because according to old fluff Horus melted half of the Emps face, ripped off a limb or two etc etci.. I think after that even i would need a nice long nap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gil galed Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 One might presume that, a mega ork leading the biggest waaaaaggh! ever with the full backing of Gork and Mork is a pretty powerful entity, perhaps even more powerful than Horus the undivided. Fluff suggests that as Waaaaghs build they become a force unto themselves, granting psychic power to the orks which can even begin to shift time and space. I think we underestimate how awesome that Ork was, it's not inconsistent. That ork would be an Alpha level psyker with the ability to blow up titans with his mind, fair fight vs the Emperor. ~Gil :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted May 9, 2011 Author Share Posted May 9, 2011 I think we underestimate how awesome that Ork was, it's not inconsistent. That ork would be an Alpha level psyker with the ability to blow up titans with his mind, fair fight vs the Emperor. Yeah, I thought so too. That Ork was a match for Emperor, which is why I am pondering why Emps didn't let rip with all his power like he did against Horus. Seems like I am not alone in thinking the psychic strain of annihilating Horus' soul was part of what put Emps on the Golden Trhone, not only the asskicking recieved from Horus. But is there ANY fluff to support this theory at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 just to clarify, IIRC that uber-ork was not part of the Ullanor campaign. It happened some other time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Yeah, I thought Horus killed the Ork Warlord at Ullanor. He with his champions struck at the leadership(modus operandi of the luna wolves). He eventually slays the war lord and throws his body off the tower to crash below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ju'kosian Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 maybe that ork lord was somehow immune to psychic powers.. ? I think the Emp's mind crush is a thing of last resort. it was also the only thing left the Emp could use against horus, since he got his arm ripped of and things like that.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Kezek Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Was The Emperor physically the same size as a Primarch? A Primarch's physical size and strength backed up with the psychic power of all four Gods of the warp. The Mind Crush was really his only option. I also believe using it was the thing that put him in the Golden Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 I think I need the exact quote of the Ork giving the Emperor a real fight. Because honestly, this doesn't sound possible. Perhaps it was a tough battle, but 1v1 if the Emperor is trying I'm hard pressed to find an entity in fiction (outside of abstracts like Marvels Galactus, or Eternity) that could put up a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Its just mentioned in one of the first three books, not in any detail. @Lord Ragnarok, that was a different ork warlord i think. Wasnt that the one where Horus took the whole first company into its headquarters and only him and Abbadon were left standing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 I'm sure the qoute is from an earlier source. Index Astartes maybe. It either went Horus was knocked unconcious by a plasma grenade and the Emperor stood over him and defended his son (doesn't sound like the Emperor we know) and a few years later Horus repais the favour by killing an Ork that was strangling the Emperor. Or the favour went the other way. Though what I don't get is how the Ork got near the Emperor. He is always surrounded by his 200 companions (inner guard Custodes), even when in his private chambers (taking a leak must be a pain and the "golden thrine" room must be massive to hold 201 people), so how did an Ork warlord battle through them to get to the Emperor and they do nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 I'm sure the qoute is from an earlier source. Index Astartes maybe. It either went Horus was knocked unconcious by a plasma grenade and the Emperor stood over him and defended his son (doesn't sound like the Emperor we know) and a few years later Horus repais the favour by killing an Ork that was strangling the Emperor. Or the favour went the other way. Though what I don't get is how the Ork got near the Emperor. He is always surrounded by his 200 companions (inner guard Custodes), even when in his private chambers (taking a leak must be a pain and the "golden thrine" room must be massive to hold 201 people), so how did an Ork warlord battle through them to get to the Emperor and they do nothing. The entire scenario sounds dubious at best. I'll chalk it up to crazy writing much like I did when Dazzler beat Galactus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialIssue Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 TBH, I reckon it was the Big E deliberately holding back to build and cement his bond with Horus. Father had saved son, now son saves father, and they are complete together. Horus is shown worthy to take over the reins of the crusade, his loyalty and love to his father absolute. Everyone is happy. Too bad Big E needs to work a bit more on the parental follow up. Its all about communication! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generating Random Name... Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Thought I remembered something about this ork you mentioned, anyway here's a quote: Because the Tyrant of Ullanor, and his attendant billions of orks on their dozens of worlds was also psychic- like every other member of the ork race. Their gestalt consciousness is enough to change the laws of physics accross entire worlds, and they are as a group definitely alpha++ pysckers. While the Tyrant himself could not smash titans with his mind, the power his and his peoples beliefs would be enough to blunt the force of imperial titans, slow bullets, increase the metabolic rate of planetary ecosystems and change the orbit of anything smaller than a planet- possibly more. Indeed, weve seen orks DO those things in later days. The God-Emperor only knows what they could do when led by the Tyrant- an ork said to be the size of a Dreadnaught who spoked with the most refined of accentless speech and highest intellect. If ever there was a xenos capable of stopping a primarch in his tracks, that was it. Although I can't find any info to back up this quote so you may have to just trust the mage! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endless Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Is there any fluff to imply that using THAT much power (annihilating souls is pretty much something that sounds to be #1 on the PSI powers list) was one of the reasons Emps got into such a bad shape, not just the beating he had recieved in deciding to fight Horus physically? Yup! :) Here you are: When the Emperor plunged his sword into Horus, the energy of the warp flowed through the Emperor, down his sword and into Horus, burning the Warmaster's flesh and sinew and destroying him in a searing flash. But the Emperor had over extended his own powers, for no man of living flesh could act as a vessel for so much power and survive. The charred husk of the Emperor fell to the ground amidst a pall of smoke and darkness. Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 That's sounds a bit strange...the Emperor, the ultimate human being, was too powerful for his own body? Granted he is still flesh and bone, but it seems illogical that the Emperor's biggest flaw was...well, being human, physically speaking - organic is more accurate, but the point stands, I'm skeptical on this one. As to the matter of the Ork who throttled Emps, Warhammer is a fluff-armour universe, one minute you're swallowing a lascannon shot, the next you're taken down by a few slashes of a sword or exhaustion from using your own powers...that's the grimdark we know and love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 That Lost and the Damned is really old (20 years) stuff and probably got retconned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 The entire scenario sounds dubious at best. I'll chalk it up to crazy writing much like I did when Dazzler beat Galactus. Strange things happen in war and so it is entirely feasible that an extremely powerful/gifted Ork could have caught the Emperor by the throat, especially if the chaos of battle was all around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Uriah Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 That's sounds a bit strange...the Emperor, the ultimate human being, was too powerful for his own body? Granted he is still flesh and bone, but it seems illogical that the Emperor's biggest flaw was...well, being human, physically speaking - organic is more accurate, but the point stands, I'm skeptical on this one. I'm not. The Emperor is the amalgamation of the Earth's shamans in ancient prehistory, reborn in one human body. Seems perfectly reasonable to me that the most powerful human being ever born is still ultimately a human being, and that his mind/spirit is infinitely more powerful than his mortal shell. This concept is one of the things that makes the 40K setting so awesome. That Lost and the Damned is really old (20 years) stuff and probably got retconned. And I still use The Lost and the Damned and Slaves to Darkness books. Even as old as they are, they're still great references and fun to read! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I'm not. The Emperor is the amalgamation of the Earth's shamans in ancient prehistory, reborn in one human body. Seems perfectly reasonable to me that the most powerful human being ever born is still ultimately a human being, and that his mind/spirit is infinitely more powerful than his mortal shell. This concept is one of the things that makes the 40K setting so awesome. Well, yes, but to the point of not being able to channel his power? Sure, if we strain ourselves too much, our body fails as well...I don't know, maybe I just prefer the "Emperor held back and couldn't kill his son" version, as cliche as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Wasn't Ullanor (or at least the empire that controlled Ullanor) one of the most powerful/largest Ork empires EVER? As we all know the biggest Orks rule Ork society (with a few exceptions)... The bigger the Empire, the more orks, the more fighting... the bigger the orks get... the bigger the leaders need to be. So imagine an ork the size of Ghazgkull Uruk Thraka... except this ork is that big without mega armour... Hell lets pretend they come from a high gravity world where Orks have developed like Ogryns have to humans and normal Orks are the size of nobs... If an ork empire was based around those the warboss could be even bigger... Then you have the orks Gestalt psychic field thingymabob which with a huge ork empire would be massive... What if the Orks think the Ork Warlord can't be killed or beaten in battle (AKA he is the best fighter), he may well be the best fighter and it is only because "Da Sneaky umans stuck him while he was krumpin da boss" that he could be killed at all. As for mind crush... Do Orks even have minds to crush :) Personally I think the Emperors power is often blown out of proportion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Actually, I do miss the "old days" when the Emperor's and Primarchs' powers were portrayed as almost godlike. That's what made events like this one (the Ork) to generate these threads: "Could it be real? How strong would an Ork have to be to throttle the Emperor of Mankind?". But this is the same Empy that was said to be able to hold off all four gods of Chaos. While I like the tone of most of the HH novels, they do have the downside of making the Primarchs' true power known. They get hurt, they die, they have to take cover, they urge others to aid them...Of course, that's the whole point of the novels, to show the reality behind the Legend, but I'll also give credit to the old, made-of-awesomeness-and-hyperboles fluff for a while longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generating Random Name... Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Wasn't Ullanor (or at least the empire that controlled Ullanor) one of the most powerful/largest Ork empires EVER? As we all know the biggest Orks rule Ork society (with a few exceptions)... The bigger the Empire, the more orks, the more fighting... the bigger the orks get... the bigger the leaders need to be. So imagine an ork the size of Ghazgkull Uruk Thraka... except this ork is that big without mega armour... Hell lets pretend they come from a high gravity world where Orks have developed like Ogryns have to humans and normal Orks are the size of nobs... If an ork empire was based around those the warboss could be even bigger... Then you have the orks Gestalt psychic field thingymabob which with a huge ork empire would be massive... What if the Orks think the Ork Warlord can't be killed or beaten in battle (AKA he is the best fighter), he may well be the best fighter and it is only because "Da Sneaky umans stuck him while he was krumpin da boss" that he could be killed at all. Indeed, weve seen orks DO those things in later days. The God-Emperor only knows what they could do when led by the Tyrant- an ork said to be the size of a Dreadnaught who spoked with the most refined of accentless speech and highest intellect. If ever there was a xenos capable of stopping a primarch in his tracks, that was it. Like I said before, not sure how genuine this is, but anyway it was the only info I could find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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