Luna Wolves company size

[Grandmaster Anaziel]

In Horus Rising when Loken's 10th Company returns to 63-19 an iterator mentions that a dozen Stormbirds will be used.

That would seem to imply that the 10th Company was around 1,200 strong, as oposed to 600, which was what I previously though. -_-

Glory to Horus!

 

Edit: It does however show 300 Luna Wolves(including Loken)preparing to board the first 6 Stormbirds. Which supports the 10th Company being 600 strong.

[Olis]

I'd always assumed the rough number had been a thousand-ish or in the high hundreds. It has been a while since I'd read the open trilogy of the HH series so I may be merely working upon recent extrapolations rather than actual quotes. -_-

[Brother Rathul]

In Horus Rising when Loken's 10th Company returns to 63-19 an iterator mentions that a dozen Stormbirds will be used.

That would seem to imply that the 10th Company was around 1,200 strong, as oposed to 600, which was what I previously though. :lol:

Glory to Horus!

 

Edit: It does however show 300 Luna Wolves(including Loken)preparing to board the first 6 Stormbirds. Which supports the 10th Company being 600 strong.

I thought the whole chapter was there, not just Loken's 10th compnay, that would account for the other additional stormbirds.

[Perrin]

How big were the Luna Wolves compared to Ultramarines and Space Wolves? Ultras being the biggest and SW being one of the smallest.

[Talizen]

How big were the Luna Wolves compared to Ultramarines and Space Wolves? Ultras being the biggest and SW being one of the smallest.

 

Well, the Ultramarines were probably the largest Legion going, what with seeming to avoid a lot of the major fighting (Astartes vs. Astartes stuff) and the implied telling that the Ultramarines absorbed the two 'unknown' chapter's Space Marines.

 

So, the UltraMarines would be the largest, with the Luna Wolves being second (before the purge at Isstvan III).

 

I don't know if the Rout was the smallest, compared to the Thousand Sons, or even the Alpha Legion or Night Lords. (Sorry, I keep thinking of Soul Hunter, so then I say Night Hunters.) :lol:

[Sons of Horus]

Luna Wolves were most likely smaller than the Word Bearers as well as the Ultramarines. I'd put them 3rd largest at most, maybe even smaller than others. Remember that it says in Galaxy in Flames that 2,000 Luna Wolves were alive after the virus bombs were dropped and they continued to fight the traitors. Must be a pretty big legion, but nothing in the hundreds of thousands.

 

btw @Talizen: there is no such thing as the 'Night Hunters'.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Nothing has ever indicated that the Night Lords or Alpha Legion were among the smallest Legions. They've always been listed as the Thousand Sons, Space Wolves and Emperors Children. Secondly, we know the Word Bearers were the second largest, at 100,000, and that the Ultramarines didn't absorb missing Legions.

[Mykra]

I'm pretty confused with legion strengths right now as even a dozen books into the HH it seems they were working off the old 10,000 strong number, while I know I read somewhere the later books shifted to a new vision of 100,000 plus strength legions.

[Simonius]

The text in Horus Rising supports Loken's company being around 600 strong, with Loken and his 300 preparing to board 6 stormbirds and a similar amount boarding in the other launch bay on another 6 stormbirds. So 600 in total on 12 stormbirds, 50 marines per ship.

 

What we don't know is if Loken's company is at full strength, or if it is typical of the size of a Luna Wolves company (or smaller/larger). And we don't know exactly how many companies there are in total as not every captain is noted in the dramtis personae, we just know the highest company number of the highest numbered captain - which does give a minimum i suppose.

 

We also don't get a full picture of if specialist marines (Reavers, Recon etc) are within the numbered company structure or outside it.

 

However, a number of the authors have confirmed that the HH group are now consistently working on the legions being around the 100k mark, with the Ultra's massively bigger at 250k. The Luna wolves are, i believe noted as one of the larger legions - probably just behind the Word Bearers as 3rd - and are likely at this time, before the purge, to be very close to 100k.

 

The Space Wolves, Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons and Salamanders are the only legions noted (I think) as being smaller than average, but even these could easily be around the 50k mark. Though I think the EC and TS are the smallest of all, maybe only 10-15k strong - but it is difficult to tell from the numbers quoted in the books as each author was working to different numbers at the time and there is little consistancy.

[Pulse]

I'm pretty confused with legion strengths right now as even a dozen books into the HH it seems they were working off the old 10,000 strong number, while I know I read somewhere the later books shifted to a new vision of 100,000 plus strength legions.

100,000 is the new number given by GW for the majority of Legions - although some as already stated were bigger (Ultramarines) or smaller (Space Wolves).

[malika666]

100.000 was supposed to be the average number, but with the Word Bearers having 100.000 members and being the second largest Legion kind of contradicts that. I assume that most Legions would be somewhere below 100k, somewhere between 50k and 100k.

[Morollan]

we know <snip> that the Ultramarines didn't absorb missing Legions.

 

How do we know that? The First Heretic reports it (as gossip) but I'm not aware of anything definitive saying it's untrue.

[Lord_Caerolion]

we know <snip> that the Ultramarines didn't absorb missing Legions.

 

How do we know that? The First Heretic reports it (as gossip) but I'm not aware of anything definitive saying it's untrue.

 

Because the author himself has stated that there's nothing behind it whatsoever, and if he knew people would take it as truth he wouldn't have included it in the book.

[Mykra]

I'm pretty confused with legion strengths right now as even a dozen books into the HH it seems they were working off the old 10,000 strong number, while I know I read somewhere the later books shifted to a new vision of 100,000 plus strength legions.

100,000 is the new number given by GW for the majority of Legions - although some as already stated were bigger (Ultramarines) or smaller (Space Wolves).

 

I'm sorry, I think I miss-worded that. I'm a bit confused as to how to properly gauge just how large or small the legions are based on numbers given in the Heresy books now. It seemed to me that a large majority of them were written working off a 10,000 or less structure, while somewhere in the writing process they were bumped up to 100,000 strong averages with some being two to three times that number.

 

So before when the Space Wolves would have numbered 5000 brothers, I doubt they'd be that small when the new average would be probably 60-80,000 men, with some having up to a quarter of a million now.

[Midgard]

From what I recall on the Legion numbers, Thousand Sons were probably by far the smallest - if I recall correctly, the novel mentions they were somewhere around 11,000-12,000 marines, of which only about 1,200 survive the Burning of Prospero. Considering that "A Thousand Sons" is one of the more recent novels, I would assume that it was written and published after the 100,000 average was made canon.

 

The only number I recall with certainty was 80,000 or so Raven Guard at Istvaan V, with the number of Istvaan V survivors being "below 10,000" (as per "Faces of Treachery" from "Age of Darkness"). While the 250,000 Ultramarines number is mentioned very frequently, I don't recall any recent fluff specifically stating that (not sure about Collected Visions, which I have not read) - similarly, Word Bearers numbers are not specifically given (as far as I know), meaning the Word Bearers could be 200,000 strong for all we know.

 

Other than that, we know that there were at least 49 companies in the Ultramarines, and around 30 companies in the Emperor's Children. I don't remember company numbers above mid-20s for the Sons of Horus, so presumably it means at least 25 companies, and if Loken's company was average size at around 600 marines, we would end up with the minimum number of Sons of Horus at 15,000. Under the same logic (reasonable since Horus trained Fulgrim), if we assume 35 Emperor's Children companies at 600 marines per company, we will end up with the absolute minimum number for them at 21,000. As we know that Ultramarine 4th Company was 3,000 or so strong, we can arrive at the minimum number of 147,000 for the Ultramarines, assuming that the 4th Company size is typical, and excluding any and all specialists, auxillaria, and other units operating outside of the normal company structure. And that is after Calth, when presumably the Ultramarines took massive losses to Word Bearer assault.

 

Naturally, the minimum numbers are likely to be far greater because of specialists, non-uniform company sizes, and the like... the lack of references to higher company numbers does not mean they do not exist. Furthermore, just because Loken's company is believed to have numbered around 600 does not mean much - his company could have suffered significant losses that were not yet replaced, it could have had significant assets in different Expeditionary Fleets, or it could have simply been abnormally small. I do recall that Word Bearers Serrated Sun Chapter was about 700 strong, while the Ultramarines 4th Company was 3,000 strong, but that only indicates that different Legions have significantly different internal organizational structures.

 

Let's recap. This is what we know for the fact:

 

Thousand Sons were probably the smallest Legion, with about 12,000 marines at Syrbotae

Raven Guard had around 80,000 marines before Istvaan V

Ultramarines 4th company had 3,000 marines after Calth

Loken's Sons of Horus company had around 600 marines at 63-19

Word Bearers' Serrated Sun Chapter had around 700 marines before Monarchia

Ultramarines had at least 49 companies

Sons of Horus had over 20 companies (assuming around 25 for the calculation below)

Emperor's Children had over 30 companies (assuming around 35 for the calculation below, assuming similar size to SoH companies)

Vlka Fenryka had 13 companies (company size unclear)

Death Guard had 7 companies (company size unclear, stated to have been very large)

Salamanders (probably) had 7 companies (company size unclear)

Thousand Sons had 9 company equivalents (company size unclear, likely slightly over 1,000)

Raven Guard had at least 34 companies (based on "The First Heretic")

 

From here, we can calculate some minimum numbers:

 

Ultramarines likely had no less than 147,000 marines after Calth

Sons of Horus had no less than 15,000 marines around 63-19

Emperor's Children had no less than 21,000 marines before Laeran

 

These numbers are almost certainly underestimating the actual size of the Legions in absolute and relative terms, but they are probably the absolute minimums that would be consistent with the fluff. The assumptions are made on two key factors: consistent company structure (i.e. each company is roughly similar in size to all others), and consistent company numbering (i.e. companies are numbered in successive order, from 1 to however many companies the Legion has). Additionally, the assumptions do not take into account forces outside the company structure, assigned to other Expeditionary Fleets, etc.

[Pulse]

Considering that "A Thousand Sons" is one of the more recent novels, I would assume that it was written and published after the 100,000 average was made canon.

Yeh it was, i think A D-B said the book was written about a month before GW called everyone together to talk about the BL books and legions sizes etc etc. :P

[Lord_Caerolion]

First Heretic outright states that the Ultramarines have 250,000, and that the Word Bearers have 100,000 and are the second largest Legion.

[Morollan]

we know <snip> that the Ultramarines didn't absorb missing Legions.

 

How do we know that? The First Heretic reports it (as gossip) but I'm not aware of anything definitive saying it's untrue.

 

Because the author himself has stated that there's nothing behind it whatsoever, and if he knew people would take it as truth he wouldn't have included it in the book.

 

I saw ADB's post on this forum a while back saying that this was gossip between characters in the novel and should not be taken as necessarily being the truth, but I can't recall him saying that it wasn't the truth.

[Lord_Caerolion]

He stated that if he thought people were going to take it as truth, he wouldn't have included it. Plus, the Mechanicus would realise "hang on, these Ultramarine geneseed tithes include traitor (well, they DID go missing, so they have to have done something) geneseed! They're with-holding their own! Send the Inquisition!"

[Olis]

He stated that if he thought people were going to take it as truth, he wouldn't have included it. Plus, the Mechanicus would realise "hang on, these Ultramarine geneseed tithes include traitor (well, they DID go missing, so they have to have done something) geneseed! They're with-holding their own! Send the Inquisition!"

 

So, are you arguing that because the author stated such an intention that it invalidates the passage or merely gives it different meaning?

[Lord_Caerolion]

I'm stating that if the author himself never intended for it to be true, it's probably best not to take it as true. While another author might take the idea and run with it, it doesn't seem it is intended to be. Alls it means is that the rumour is intended to be just that, a malicious rumour spoken by two bitter marines about the Legion they hate. Of course, this being 40k, and the Horus Heresy fans in particular, every 'rumour' is taken to actually mean 'gospel truth' or at least 'shadowy foretelling'.

 

People can believe the Ultramarines absorbed at least one Legion, but people are also free to believe that the Necrons are actually cute little kittens, and the Tyranids are actually just looking for someone to be their friends. Of course, I'm being a little hyperbolic there, but as it stands, the size of the Ultramarine Legion is purely down to the fact that they recruited from a sector, not just a single planet. With a recruitment base several times larger than the others, it stands to reason that you'll have several times as many soldiers.

[Olis]

Fair enough. Sounds like a good counter-point, actually. :rolleyes:

[Morollan]

Do you happen to have the quote from ADB? As I say, I recall him saying that it was written as speculation/gossip between characters and that it should not necessarily be taken as truth. I don't ever recall him "doing a Gav Thorpe" and saying it shouldn't have been included at all and was just a throwaway comment, not to be taken seriously.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I don't recall exactly where, as the topic has come up numerous times on two different forums that I've read his posts in, as well as on his blog. I'll try to find it, but it might take a while...

 

EDIT: Found it, here you go:

If I'd known people would really believe it was a hint, rather than several soldiers joking, I'd never have written it. I genuinely had no idea people would take it as fact. Most of the other HH references to the Lost Legions (especially in Prospero Burns) are spoken with an air of truth. In The First Heretic, in that scene, it's blatantly just some soldiers even admitting they know it's just a rumour.

 

EDIT:

 

Let's compare.

 

You have a Space Wolf categorically saying that his Legion has punished other Legions before, in that such an event "is not unprecedented" in Prospero Burns. I can completely see why readers will attribute that to the Lost Legions.

 

But the Word Bearers in The First Heretic are plainly saying it's just a rumour that would explain the Ultramarines' insane size, and they suspect it might be true. They have no evidence. It's a possibility, but I was careful not to make it a statement.

[Morollan]

Thanks for that. I did a search on ADB's posts but I was only looking in ones about TFH so I missed that one.