Jump the shark moment:warp jump an entire moon?

[DarKnight]

Reading through the GK codex and it says during the Siege of Terra, Malcador shifts Titan into the warp to escape Horus' notice. Am I the only one who thinks that's a little too much? I understand there's an innate suspension of disbelief in 40K and I'm not trying to fanboy it to death but an entire planetary body, even with the use of sorcery and "macro geller-fields" just seems too fantastical. Or do I just need to stop being a dick about it?

[Codicier Lucion]

Moving a planet into the warp can be done, it happened in the Grey Knights books, but that was with the help of daemons and one particular corrupt machine. Not to mention the planet was corrupt as it could possibly be when it reappeared.

 

Having Titan enter the warp and come back out without any problems, and its human occupants entirely uncorrupted, is one of the many, many "you've got to be fething kidding me" moments in that book. Not to mention the whole canon black hole created by the author's views on sorcery.

 

Just wait until you read about what happens to the Sisters of Battle when the Grey Knights find them.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Can we just stamp it "Ward fluff" and move on before this turns into another flame-fest?

 

WLK

[Culebras]

Reading through the GK codex and it says during the Siege of Terra, Malcador shifts Titan into the warp to escape Horus' notice. Am I the only one who thinks that's a little too much? I understand there's an innate suspension of disbelief in 40K and I'm not trying to fanboy it to death but an entire planetary body, even with the use of sorcery and "macro geller-fields" just seems too fantastical. Or do I just need to stop being a dick about it?

 

If you want the GK to be "just another" Space Marine Chapter, then yeah. But thats not what the GK codex is shooting for.

 

Its trying to portray what life is like at the pinnacle of the Imperium. We tend to get alot of bottom up views in 40k. We see from the individual guardsman, the inquisitors, even space marines, who truth be told, are really really common, (and by common, i mean not singular, unique, or different.) How would you present the utmost pinacle of the imperial military, the absolute best of the best?

 

It has to be over the top, it has to be unbelievable, because what they are shooting for is to make the GK to Space Marines as Space Marines are to imperial guardsman. If the book had come out and simply said, well they fought the necrons at such and such, and this is squad Dakka dakka, which killed titan <insert name here>, How would it be different than the space marine codex, or the Blood Angel Codex, or any of the other codexes floating around. I personally welcome the over the topness because it keeps the hobby from getting stale and it gives something for people to joke about during games.

[Sons of Horus]

Ward Fluff.

 

@Culebras: Since when were the GK supposed to be like super space marines? They are better equipped and trained in a special manner but they are definitely not "to a space marine what a space marine is to a member of the guard"

[snorkle]

@Sons of Horus: Since the horror that is Ward :tu:

 

I believe the call of Creeeeeeeeeeeeed may soon be replaced with Waaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrd

[Iron Lord]

. Not to mention the whole canon black hole created by the author's views on sorcery.

 

I believe it's been pointed out earlier that the term was beginning to be used in a more general sense before Codex Grey Knights came out- and A D-B mentioned it as well.

 

Something that I do find interesting in the C:GK changes is the notion of psychic powers and sorcery being refined into something better explained for pretty much the first time.

 

"Truly, the separation between psychic power and black magic exists only in the minds of men, and is wholly dependent upon whether the observer views the wonders of the galaxy through a veil of sorcery or science."

 

The idea of all psychic powers (no matter what you call them) being essentially the same thing isn't a new one; I've heard it spoken by IP folks and Games Dev guys many times, and I wonder if it's just something that's never really translated all that well into codices before. So now, when it's explained clearly, it seems a sudden surprise and a massive conflict, when really it's just that the Grey Knights know enough about the warp to realise that whether you call it Psychic Powers or Sorcery, it's still the same thing. So they don't bother with differentiating it along artificial lines. In the 40K setting, the sixth sense is a corrupt power at its very core, but depending on how you wield it will make a lot of difference.

 

As for "moon-sized object jumping into the warp"- the Phalanx was the size of a small moon.

[Oiad]

It's a bit far-fetched to say the least. What I find more ridiculous is that Saturn has several dozen moons, maybe hundreds. So the need to move Deimos from Mars seems illogical. Astronomy is obviously not Ward's strength. While I like the idea that the Grey Knights have their own Forge ran by Martian techs, I hope Deimos gets retconned back to its more traditional locale in the next codex.

 

@Culebras: Since when were the GK supposed to be like super space marines? They are better equipped and trained in a special manner but they are definitely not "to a space marine what a space marine is to a member of the guard"

While I would never call a Grey Knight (or a Custode for that matter) as being to an SM to what an SM is to IG, it depends on the fluff you read. There are two viewpoints on Grey Knights ability:

• Most non-GK players who (from experieince) dislike GKs and their elite stance tend to view them as the 'specialised but otherwise the same'. At the most tolerable, these agree with the Matt Ward 'WS4 school-of-thought' as the preferable way to represent them, though that doesn't mean they necessarily agree with his fluff. The emphasis is that they are only good at killing daemons and not much else...
  -
  
• Then there's the ideology held by many others who prefer the elite approach. This follows the Chambers/Kelly/McNeil 'WS5 school-of-thought'. There are valid resources to support evidence that Grey Knights tend to throttle the cuss out of Space Marines. 'The Killing Ground' by McNeil for example, or the 'Imperialis - Armageddon', where procurement of the future Brother-Captain Aurellian by a squad of Grey Knights resulted in them defending themselves from, then killing a group of chaplains from a rival chapter. When both the Flaming Falcons and the Relictors tempted the wrath of the Inquisition they both ended up decimated and scattered too, showing that Grey Knights can be called upon to eliminate SM chapters. In my estimation the Grey Knights are at least up there with the Space Wolves and the Minotaurs as being 'Space Marine killers'. Mess with them at your own peril...
  

--------------------

EDIT: Less zeal, more fact.

[Walter Payton]

Astrology is obviously not Ward's strength.

 

He's brilliant at Astrology, that's how he learned to write fluff. Astronomy isn't his strong point.

 

 

When both the Flaming Falcons and the Relictors tempted the wrath of the Inquisition they also scoffed at the Grey Knight's ability to kill marines - they both ended up eliminated to the last man.

 

They weren't. The Relictors escaped into the Eye and it is hinted that some Flame Falcons still survive. They did however have the worst of the engagement.

[DarKnight]

. Not to mention the whole canon black hole created by the author's views on sorcery.

 

I believe it's been pointed out earlier that the term was beginning to be used in a more general sense before Codex Grey Knights came out- and A D-B mentioned it as well.

 

Something that I do find interesting in the C:GK changes is the notion of psychic powers and sorcery being refined into something better explained for pretty much the first time.

 

"Truly, the separation between psychic power and black magic exists only in the minds of men, and is wholly dependent upon whether the observer views the wonders of the galaxy through a veil of sorcery or science."

 

The idea of all psychic powers (no matter what you call them) being essentially the same thing isn't a new one; I've heard it spoken by IP folks and Games Dev guys many times, and I wonder if it's just something that's never really translated all that well into codices before. So now, when it's explained clearly, it seems a sudden surprise and a massive conflict, when really it's just that the Grey Knights know enough about the warp to realise that whether you call it Psychic Powers or Sorcery, it's still the same thing. So they don't bother with differentiating it along artificial lines. In the 40K setting, the sixth sense is a corrupt power at its very core, but depending on how you wield it will make a lot of difference.

 

As for "moon-sized object jumping into the warp"- the Phalanx was the size of a small moon.

I thought of the Phalanx a bunch of times before I created this thread, I figured that a mobile Chapter-Monastery already under propulsion was "more realistically" able to do warp jumps? *shrugs*

[Oiad]

He's brilliant at Astrology, that's how he learned to write fluff. Astronomy isn't his strong point.

Oh shoot! Two consonants out. Well now you what's not my strong point. :D

 

They weren't. The Relictors escaped into the Eye and it is hinted that some Flame Falcons still survive. They did however have the worst of the engagement.

To be critical of myself, neither did either of those chapters exactly 'scoff at their ability', if anything at all. Still, to embellish it while under such zeal shouldn't have happened and I'll retract that part of the statement.

[Octavulg]

The problem, to me, is that Titan is almost half the size of Earth. That's really big.

 

Plus, as people said - coming out completely unscathed? Please.

 

* * *

 

Culebras:

 

We see from the individual guardsman, the inquisitors, even space marines, who truth be told, are really really common, (and by common, i mean not singular, unique, or different.

 

There is less than one Space Marine for every world in the Imperium. Space Marines are more rare than inhabited Imperial planets.

 

They're pretty singular.

 

* * *

 

Oiad

 

While I would never call a Grey Knight (or a Custode for that matter) as being to an SM to what an SM is to IG, it depends on the fluff you read. There are two viewpoints on Grey Knights ability:

 

Most non-GK players who (from experieince) dislike GKs and their elite stance tend to view them as the 'specialised but otherwise the same'. At the most tolerable, these agree with the Matt Ward 'WS4 school-of-thought' as the preferable way to represent them, though that doesn't mean they necessarily agree with his fluff. The emphasis is that they are only good at killing daemons and not much else...

-

Then there's the ideology held by many others who prefer the elite approach. This follows the Chambers/Kelly/McNeil 'WS5 school-of-thought'. There are valid resources to support evidence that Grey Knights tend to throttle the cuss out of Space Marines. 'The Killing Ground' by McNeil for example, or the 'Imperialis - Armageddon', where procurement of the future Brother-Captain Aurellian by a squad of Grey Knights resulted in them defending themselves from, then killing a group of chaplains from a rival chapter. When both the Flaming Falcons and the Relictors tempted the wrath of the Inquisition they both ended decimated and scattered, showing that Grey Knights can be called upon to eliminate SM chapters. In my estimation the Grey Knights are at least up there with the Space Wolves and the Minotaurs as being 'Space Marine killers'. Mess with them at your own peril...

 

The whole "Space Marine killer" thing is the stupidest idea in a long time (though, oddly, it would be fine if the GK were and the SW/Minotaurs weren't).

 

But leaving that aside - the problem with the "GK are the greatest of the greatest" is that Space Marines are supposedly the greatest of the greatest. They train almost 24 hours a day, and train pretty damn hard. What, exactly, are GK doing that would propel them significantly past this? I could see their recruiting practices helping, and sure, maybe they've got some serious technological advantages, but you're still going to run into the problem that Space Marines are already improbably capable. Being so much more improbably capable begins to seem odd.

[DarKnight]

The problem, to me, is that Titan is almost half the size of Earth. That's really big.

 

Plus, as people said - coming out completely unscathed? Please.

 

* * *

 

Culebras:

 

We see from the individual guardsman, the inquisitors, even space marines, who truth be told, are really really common, (and by common, i mean not singular, unique, or different.

 

There is less than one Space Marine for every world in the Imperium. Space Marines are more rare than inhabited Imperial planets.

 

They're pretty singular.

 

* * *

 

Oiad

 

While I would never call a Grey Knight (or a Custode for that matter) as being to an SM to what an SM is to IG, it depends on the fluff you read. There are two viewpoints on Grey Knights ability:

 

Most non-GK players who (from experieince) dislike GKs and their elite stance tend to view them as the 'specialised but otherwise the same'. At the most tolerable, these agree with the Matt Ward 'WS4 school-of-thought' as the preferable way to represent them, though that doesn't mean they necessarily agree with his fluff. The emphasis is that they are only good at killing daemons and not much else...

-

Then there's the ideology held by many others who prefer the elite approach. This follows the Chambers/Kelly/McNeil 'WS5 school-of-thought'. There are valid resources to support evidence that Grey Knights tend to throttle the cuss out of Space Marines. 'The Killing Ground' by McNeil for example, or the 'Imperialis - Armageddon', where procurement of the future Brother-Captain Aurellian by a squad of Grey Knights resulted in them defending themselves from, then killing a group of chaplains from a rival chapter. When both the Flaming Falcons and the Relictors tempted the wrath of the Inquisition they both ended decimated and scattered, showing that Grey Knights can be called upon to eliminate SM chapters. In my estimation the Grey Knights are at least up there with the Space Wolves and the Minotaurs as being 'Space Marine killers'. Mess with them at your own peril...

 

The whole "Space Marine killer" thing is the stupidest idea in a long time (though, oddly, it would be fine if the GK were and the SW/Minotaurs weren't).

 

But leaving that aside - the problem with the "GK are the greatest of the greatest" is that Space Marines are supposedly the greatest of the greatest. They train almost 24 hours a day, and train pretty damn hard. What, exactly, are GK doing that would propel them significantly past this? I could see their recruiting practices helping, and sure, maybe they've got some serious technological advantages, but you're still going to run into the problem that Space Marines are already improbably capable. Being so much more improbably capable begins to seem odd.

Very much agreed sir.

[Oiad]

More stupid than moons being illogically moved for he sake of spectacle? There's nothing 'stupid' about it unless someone takes it too literally. After all, it's not a claim of overall speciality but it does merit those chapters that have demonstrated an ability handle other loyalists in conflicts. Other members may want to add different chapter names but these two specifically stick in my mind, particularly the Minotaurs who's history is more noteworthy of their conflicts with other chapters than with factions outside of the Imperium. What makes certain chapters more reliable to do this kind of work is not about the amount of time put into practising, but more the kind of battle practices they specialise in and attitudes they have.

 

As for the escalation of elitism, you'll always get someone wanting to go one better in this game. I've lost count of how many 'Custodes>Grey Knights?' threads I've seen.

 

------

 

EDIT - Space Marine killer/ Space Marine executor, what's the difference? Not my concept. Here's the quote:

 

"Space Marines are inherently tough, but Space Wolves are particularly dangerous. They are ruthless, they are savage, they are brutal. And it begs the question, why would the Emperor permit something quite so dangerous and untamed to exist? And that would be to take down another Legion."

[Walter Payton]

More stupid than moons being illogically moved for he sake of spectacle? There's nothing 'stupid' about it unless someone takes it too literally. After all, it's not a claim of overall speciality but it does merit those chapters that have demonstrated an ability handle other loyalists in conflicts. Other members may want to add different chapter names but these two specifically stick in my mind, particularly the Minotaurs who's history is more noteworthy of their conflicts with other chapters than with factions outside of the Imperium. What makes certain chapters more reliable to do this kind of work is not about the amount of time put into practising, but more the kind of battle practices they specialise in and attitudes they have.

 

As for the escalation of elitism, you'll always get someone wanting to go one better in this game. I've lost count of how many 'Custodes>Grey Knights?' threads I've seen.

 

What's ironic is that if the Imperials had simply waited, then Titan would have been a worthless hunk of rock and thus protected by its inconspicuity.

[spu00sed]

I don't mind the technology in hiding a small planet (titan is one of two moons bigger than the smallest planet(s) in the solar system.

 

I don't get hiding it in the first place.

 

When Horus arrives would he notice a moon around a distant planet, that had little in the way of EM emmisions.

 

Surely he would be more suprised that a moon was missing.

 

Also wouldn't the saturian fleet and colonies notice a moon missing from their orbital dance.

 

Demos is only 6Km across. It isn't even a proper moon (lacking the gravitational force to sphericalise itself). If that is the size of their forgeworld, couldn't they just give the admech some of the moon to use, Heck I would give them Reading. Terra doesn't need it.

 

Finally, wasn't Demos mentioned when the Necrons attacked Mars?

[Culebras]

Culebras:

 

We see from the individual guardsman, the inquisitors, even space marines, who truth be told, are really really common, (and by common, i mean not singular, unique, or different.

 

There is less than one Space Marine for every world in the Imperium. Space Marines are more rare than inhabited Imperial planets.

 

yes, they are rare, but not as rare as GK, which is sort of the point the codex is overstressing. When you get down to it, if you really wanted to, you could get five thousand marines from like 10 different chapters or 5k Guardsmen from like 100 different armies on one planet in a huge battle, but 5k GK? nope, not that many, ever. And when you put all those space marines together, what do you get? Alot of different colors but at the end of the day, they are all wielding chain swords and bolters and have predators and jump packs and W/e. Sure you may get Blood angels or space wolves with a different flavor, but when you get down to the basics, bolt guns are bolt guns no matter what color they are painted.

 

Now Gk don't use Bolters, they use storm bolters, and nemesis weapons, and two-wound terminator, and teleporting assualt troops, and dreadknights and whatever else. Are they common, No, because no other force in the Imperium uses that combination of weird stuff. So When I say "Space Marines are common," I mean that for all the individuality each chapter may have, they still follow the common rules of the codex astartes and use the same common weapons. Do the GK? think about it. what to the GK really have in common with other space marines in the wake of this codex? Not a whole lot.

 

@Culebras: Since when were the GK supposed to be like super space marines? They are better equipped and trained in a special manner but they are definitely not "to a space marine what a space marine is to a member of the guard"

 

If you are going to quote me, quote the whole sentence. I said

It has to be over the top, it has to be unbelievable, because what they are shooting for is to make the GK to Space Marines as Space Marines are to imperial guardsman.

 

The intention of the authors, as I read it, is to make GK better. They do not want the GK to be "just another Space Marine Chapter." If they did, they would have kept the rules that allowed you to take SM and IG units and called it daemonhunters, but they didn't. What they were shooting for was to make the most EPIC army idea they could think of. They seemed to approach this by asking "if I was a futuristic empire with infinite money and access to the most advanced technology in the history of mankind, what Couldn't I do?" What we got was an army with:

 

-geneseed taken from the Emperor himself

-marines made up of psykers pulled from blackships no one else in the Imperium is supposed to touch

-equipped with weapons and armor many chapters can only dream of getting access too

-put through a hellish training phase (no scout phase and like what? 99.9% mortality rate for aspirants?)

-made to study info on demons that even your basic marine isn't supposed to know

-not to mention all the quests that the heroes have to go through

-their own Forgeworld!! (ok forge moon)

-able to work with the inquisition

and lord knows what else I'm forgetting.

 

I read that and my reaction is not "oh they made another space marine chapter." My reaction is "Oh, they were trying to capture the essence of Chuck Norris and over did it a little."

 

Now, you obviously disagree with this direction and you know what, fine your allowed to think that. I honestly don't care for armies that need to be larger than life on the page. I think they may have overdone it by showing how elite and special the GK are with all their strange alien weapons and toys and rules and such. But at the same time, I am glad they are trying to push the envelope rather than just recycling what was good 20 years ago. I've seen enough games whose ideas of innovation were taking old content and overused story ideas and trying to pass them off as "New." It doesn't work.

 

What they are doing now doesn't make everyone happy, but at the end of the day, it has the potential to grow the hobby and prevent codex stagnation. They just have to be careful about overdoing it.

[Octavulg]

Oiad:

More stupid than moons being illogically moved for he sake of spectacle? There's nothing 'stupid' about it unless someone takes it too literally.

 

You mean like Dan Abnett, the first person I ever saw express it? He claimed the Space Wolves were specifically created with that in mind because they were so ferocious and dangerous.

 

And I am sorry, but that is dumb. And it needs to be stomped one wherever possible, as hard as possible.

 

Some Marines good at killing other Marines? Fine. Marines specifically created for the purpose? No.

 

* * *

 

Culebras

 

Now Gk don't use Bolters, they use storm bolters, and nemesis weapons, and two-wound terminator, and teleporting assualt troops, and dreadknights and whatever else. Are they common, No, because no other force in the Imperium uses that combination of weird stuff. So When I say "Space Marines are common," I mean that for all the individuality each chapter may have, they still follow the common rules of the codex astartes and use the same common weapons. Do the GK? think about it. what to the GK really have in common with other space marines in the wake of this codex? Not a whole lot.

 

And all of those are shiny toys. Take them away and give them to any random Space Marine chapter and you will be much closer to the GK than you will be handing power armor and bolters to IG.

[Culebras]

And all of those are shiny toys. Take them away and give them to any random Space Marine chapter and you will be much closer to the GK than you will be handing power armor and bolters to IG.

 

I am curious. Are you disagreeing with the opinion I expressed regarding the GK codex and its author's intentions or the fact that I called space marines common?

[Octavulg]

More with the idea that the GK don't have much in common with Space Marines, though Space Marines being common is definitely an odd perspective to take.

[Wrath of Terra]

@Sons of Horus: Since the horror that is Ward :D

 

I believe the call of Creeeeeeeeeeeeed may soon be replaced with Waaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrd

 

 

Bite your tongue! I am NOT changing my sig!

[Codicier Lucion]

I believe it's been pointed out earlier that the term was beginning to be used in a more general sense before Codex Grey Knights came out- and A D-B mentioned it as well.

 

I really could not care less. There's a fine line between psychic powers and sorcery, the Imperium does not use sorcery. The Imperium reprimanded the Thousand Sons for using sorcery. The Inquisition shoots those using sorcery. The people who dance naked around ancient monuments screaming out the names of the chaos gods using sacrifices and blood rituals are shot on sight. The ones who aren't sanctioned psychers and repeatedly invoke Tzeentch's name are not accepted into the Imperium because "there's no difference between psychic power and sorcery".

 

The Grey Knights do not get a free pass on this no matter how much Ward wants to overpower them in an effort to start making people write Chuck Norris jokes about Draigo.

 

The Emperor himself banned almost all psychers in the Imperium due to the risk of sorcery, I don't think he added "Oh, unless you're Malcador" at the end of that proclamation.

 

Next thing you know Ward will suddenly retcon the Imperium's entire history of xenophobia and hatred of AIs so he can make the Necrons follow Guilliman.

 

As for "moon-sized object jumping into the warp"- the Phalanx was the size of a small moon.

 

The difference being that Phalanx was designed from the ground up to do that, hollowed out, given the right engines, structured in the right way and above all was actually a ship. It did not have things tacked on at the last minute in an effort to hand wave Ward's ever growing "MY CHAPTER IS BETTER THAN YOURS!" mentality he displays in every codex he writes.

 

And no, the Rock doesn't count because again they spend more than five minutes working on it, it was smaller than a moon, and it's more a ship than a planet now.

 

I believe the call of Creeeeeeeeeeeeed may soon be replaced with Waaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrd

 

Considering he decided to give all Grey Knight Grandmasters a "better" version of Creed's ability I think he heard of that particular internet meme and tried to capitalise upon it.

 

Hopefully this is a sign that he looks at the internet and will come to realise that he shouldn't use the complaints about his last codex as suggestions for what he should do to his next one.

 

@Culebras - There's a limit to how over the top you can make armies. When the general warhammer community would not be surprised for this sort of thing to be in the Grey Knights codex:

 

http://1d4chan.org/images/1/15/1304719660820.jpg

 

Something has seriously gone wrong.

[Doghouse]

To be honest I think that a lot of the background material for the GK is a little far fetched but the aspect concerning it's creation is probably the least problematic as far as I'm concerned.

 

Before the heresy I don't think they'd have even considered creating a chapter dedicated to fighting chaos but once the cat was out of the bag I can't see this being a problem in the same way I can't see the role of the Space Wolves being created to tackle other Legions.

 

The whole disappearing moon issue isn't really that bad. You are talking about a technologically enlightened Imperium at it's zenith and fighting itself into a corner, I'd say it was desperate times calling for desperate measures.

[Walter Payton]

The Emperor himself banned almost all psychers in the Imperium due to the risk of sorcery, I don't think he added "Oh, unless you're Malcador" at the end of that proclimation.

 

Malcador and the Emperor were tight. He was the Emperor's most trusted advisor, closer even than Horus. Malcador could get away with it most likely.

 

Next thing you know Ward will suddenly retcon the Imperium's entire history of xenophobia and hatred of AIs so he can make the Necrons follow Guilliman.

 

They're already doing that with Sanguinius. Silent King much.

[Culebras]

@Culebras - There's a limit to how over the top you can make armies. When the general warhammer community would not be surprised for this sort of thing to be in the Grey Knights codex:

 

http://1d4chan.org/images/1/15/1304719660820.jpg

 

Something has seriously gone wrong.

 

 

Agreed.