Jump the shark moment:warp jump an entire moon?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Actually, if anything, sorcery has more control over itself than psychic ability does, the problem comes from the fact that it's an all-or-nothing thing. Either your pact is foolproof, or your ritual is perfectly pronounced/inscribed, at which point you're awesome, or there's a flaw somewhere, and you're utterly, utterly screwed. On the other hand, there is no such thing as foolproof psychic ability.

The problem comes from the fact that while sorcery can be flawless, the vast majority of the time there is some loophole in the pact for the daemon to take advantage of, as shown by the Thousand Sons, or the summoning circle was blurred in one section, ruining the ritual etc. Psychic ability, on the other hand, while never entirely safe, is much more manageable in its problems, because the psyker can actively stop drawing power, or whatever needs to be done, something that can't be done with sorcery.

[Justin Kase]

This isn't the first time Titan was 'moved'.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_in_fiction

Judge Dredd, part of the 2000 AD comic series. Titan is used as a penal colony, but, due to a writer's error, is placed in orbit around Jupiter. This was later explained as being due to a scientific experiment in teleportation. This was revealled in the Games Workshop adventure for the Judge Dredd Roleplaying Game - Judgement Day (Not to be mistaken for the Zombie Takeover) where the Judges discover that the soul of Judge Caligula is still alive and is attempting to take over Megacity 1. The players in their investigation get to go to Titan. In the introduction that tells the GM about Titan, it reveals about the Teleportation Experiment that went wrong. (A fact that was said in the White Dwarf review of this adventure to be a very neat solution to the writer's error.)

 

If it is good enough for Dredd, it's good enough for the Grey Knights :D

[Walter Payton]

As for the Vortex of Doom theory, it's possible but unlikely. The name sort of implies that it's not a stable rift for warp travel, otherwise you'd be able to do things like have land raiders equipped with Gellar Fields making warp jumps onto the battlefield with the help of the librarian*. Not to mention the thing you've already mentioned with the problem of the sheer size required. The biggest vortexes of doom tend to only be a few meters across, this thing would have to be thousands of miles long. Malcador, even if he were capable of this, would almost certainly kill himself performing this act and almost certainly not have the strength to hold the webway closed when the Emperor went off to face Horus.

 

A more probable power would be the Gate of Infinity, but Malcador himself would have to be on the moon to make it work. The size would also still be a problem and it would also be like making a small warp jump; teleporting from one place and turning up somewhere else in a short space of time. There's also the obvious point that these are psychic powers and not sorcery.

 

Well, we do know that Malcador is a prodigiously powerful psyker. If Librarians cannot create stable warp rifts, then he may be able to.

 

 

I think I have the right to start getting angry when his writing causes some people I know to refuse to use his updated codexes and some of the stuff he pulls out of his rear and puts on to paper makes some so embarrassed to play Ultramarines they jump chapters.

 

Indeed, you seem to so angry you want to make him unemployed.

 

He actively shreds any decent ideas behind an army and crams in whatever fanfiction he can think of every time he gets his hands on a codex, and yes it is fanfiction based upon the sheer level of Ultramarines propaganda present within his codexes.

 

Given that Matt Ward wrote very little of the Ultramarines fluff in Codex: Space Marines, the bulk of it being lifted from Index Astartes: Ultramarines and the 2nd Edition Codex: Ultramarines, what are you referring to?

 

He actively shreds any decent ideas behind an army and crams in whatever fanfiction he can think of every time he gets his hands on a codex, and yes it is fanfiction based upon the sheer level of Ultramarines propaganda present within his codexes. Lord only knows what he's going to do to the Black Templars after already voicing his opinion that they're aberrants and degenerates dying out as time goes on

 

He never said they were degenerate, and they are aberrant, which only means to be different from the usual. The vast majority of chapters are Codex following, and the majority of chapters are Ultramarines successors (which, by the way, wasn't him either). So it isn't unfair to say that a Space Marine chapter is usually Codex adherent. The proportion of non-Codex chapters decreased with each decade too; if we look at the Indices Astartes for the non-Codexers, we find that they are indeed passed over as a source of new geneseed; there are no Black Templars or Space Wolves successors (the Wolf Brothers died out).

 

Dark Angels successors are rare because they are mistrusted.

 

Blood Angels successors are rare because their geneseed is catastrophically flawed.

 

But even if they are getting reprimanded for actually looking up facts about what they're writing, which makes little to no sense anyway, such as all chapters being on the beck and call of the Ultramarines

 

Did he say that? The Ultramarines are held in very high regard, and many chapters regard Guilliman as their spiritual liege. Neither of those concepts were invented by him.

 

the Blood Angels holding Guilliman in high respect and a great deal of their success being owed to him.

 

1. The Blood Angels do want to be like the Ultramarines, in a superficial way. The Black Rage is not something they embrace. It is not something they are even proud of. They would much rather not have their men become uncontrollable berserkers before combat. In this regard, they do want to be like the Ultramarines in the sense that they would rather be closer to the Ultramarine model of a chapter than they are now. Ward could have said it a hell of a lot better, however.

 

2. It is well documented in Index Astartes: The Codex Astartes and in Index Astartes: Blood Angels that the Blood Angels follow the tenets of the Codex Astartes in many, if not all things, being limited by their geneseed.

 

3. Why shouldn't they hold him in high regard? He was still a mighty primarch and held the Imperium together in a great time of crisis. His Codex forms a core part of their organisation and tactics. Are you saying that all the Chapters simply reject as useless those primarchs who aren't their primogenitor?

[Iron Lord]

Did he say that? The Ultramarines are held in very high regard, and many chapters regard Guilliman as their spiritual liege. Neither of those concepts were invented by him.

 

it was in the White Dwarf introducing the 5E codex that the "all chapters regard Guilliman as their spiritual liege" phrase was used.

 

Poorly chosen, certainly- but in the actual codex it's a more reasonable version- with Ultramarines successors regarding him that way.

 

Some timeline things actually first appear in the 5E main rulebook- before being repeated in the 5E Codex. Calgar holding a gate against Orks alone for a night and a day. The ultramarines allying with the Tau against the Necrons- and then allowing them to evacuate before carrying out Exterminatus against the planet.

[Walter Payton]

Did he say that? The Ultramarines are held in very high regard, and many chapters regard Guilliman as their spiritual liege. Neither of those concepts were invented by him.

 

it was in the White Dwarf introducing the 5E codex that the "all chapters regard Guilliman as their spiritual liege" phrase was used.

 

But did he say "all," or merely "many?" If it is the latter, he did not invent the concept; a similar phrase appears in Index Astartes: Ultramarines.

 

I don't deny that his work shows a remarkable lack of tact or subtlety, but I don't see much that he has actually added to the fluff and I certainly don't see how he has "butchered," it. The idea of a warp jumping moon is ineffably silly, but hardly more so than many other ill-advised tracts written by GW's hacks over the years.

[Codicier Lucion]

It does say that in Codex GK as well- that the Grey Knights "wield power that would corrupt a mortal in an instant" (which is why they need the protection given by their geneseed).

 

First off, that book is a canon black hole. As far as i'm concerned none of it counts towards anything in the universe of 40K due to the sheer lunacy of its content, the geneseed part just for starters, and it's the same book which had Grey Knights shrugging off orbital bombardments along with a man running about the warp and destroying the domains of the chaos gods.

 

It's not exactly the most reliable source to cite, especially considering the author.

 

I don't have a problem with it being more corrupting than normal psychic power- it's the assumption that you have to be "allied with a Chaos God" to use sorcery, that I'm challenging.

 

Well, not just a chaos god. They can be undivided to my knowledge but in 40K sorcerers do only appear in Chaos codexes as far as I know. There's also the list of powers they have access to, the various upgrades they can get which seem to all come from chaos and the chaos gods and then there's other things like the rituals they're known to perform and he names they invoke.

The few times a sorcerer's ritual is performed in fluff, they have the habit of being allied with chaos and saying things like "Slaanesh bless me!"

 

In Prospero Burns it implies that psychic power is just sorcery "under stringent psyker control"- that malificarum (their term for evil magic) is sorcery without this stringent control.

 

Which was written from the perspective of the Space Wolves, a chapter who, as noted earlier, tended to have a somewhat negative view of psychers due to how they appeared on their homeworld. I think that implication is somewhat bias and should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Well, we do know that Malcador is a prodigiously powerful psyker. If Librarians cannot create stable warp rifts, then he may be able to.

 

True, but again the effort would probably totally burn him out. To my knowledge, not even the Emperor himself was shown to have enough power to warp jump planets and Malcador only had a fraction of his strength.

 

Also, assuming they can do this sort of thing, wouldn't it make more sense to move the planet into the webway if they wanted it to not be noticed by Horus or a large force of daemons? You'd think that the whole plan behind sending it into the warp would be quite flawed if it was intended to not let Horus or his benefactors know about the Grey Knights. The use of sorcery to help perform the act probably wouldn't help either as Malcador would have to be calling on Tzeentch's power or one of the others to perform this act.

 

 

Indeed, you seem to so angry you want to make him unemployed.

 

No, just gone from Games Workshop.

Either that or for him to be kept away from writing any more fluff from here on and kept on an extremely tight leash when it comes to codexes. Or anything rules related.

 

Given that Matt Ward wrote very little of the Ultramarines fluff in Codex: Space Marines, the bulk of it being lifted from Index Astartes: Ultramarines and the 2nd Edition Codex: Ultramarines, what are you referring to?

 

Yes and no. A lot of it was lifted from the previous codex and other events taken from it, but apparently Ward took his own personal touch to each of them. For example the following changes were made to a few characters:

- Calgar is now the second greatest Ultramarine behind Guilliman himself, no complaints there, but he's now got a long standing record of killing daemon princes and eldar avatars in single combat.

- Sicarius is so great his name serves as a byword for victory even beyond the realm of Ultramar, has all but totally perfected the tactics the Raven Guard have spent their entire existence practicing, and his second company is noted to be the finest fighting unit in the entire adeptus astartes.

- Tigurius now has apparently near pinpoint precognitive abilities and an incredibly powerful sixth sense which allows him to follow multiple “hunches” and constantly discover useful and is so good he is thought to be directly guided by the Emperor’s hand. And is also second only to the Emperor in terms of psychic power if one source is to be believed.

- The Ultramarines now have the most skilled marksmen amongst all of the space marine chapters according to Telion’s bio.

 

And yes, Sicarius did have a background prior to this as he was created for the Medusa V campaign.

 

Huge chunks of the codex is dedicated to how great and awesome the Ultramarines are, claiming that all chapters save for those who do not follow the codex astartes attempt to be as in keeping with the doctrine as possible and will “ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great primarch (Guilliman)”. Even implying they are second rate by stating “These chapters can never be Ultramarines” and giving no hint that any of them follow the primarchs they take their gene seed from rather than Guilliman.

He also claims that all chapters who come from Guilliman recognise Calgar as being their lord and will follow his will in an instant specifically saying “should the Lord of Ultramar ever find himself in need of aid, he will find these Chapters ever willing and able to fight at his side” but the one time Calgar’s listed to do this he is able to easily recruit chapters with other geneseed such as the Crimson Fists.

 

The almost entire Horus Heresy is skipped save for the bare basic facts (Horus turned traitor and fought the Emperor) in favour of describing in detail how Guilliman and the Ultramarines apparently single handily held the Imperium together and all but the most backwards and arrogant primarch followed his glorious plan (Russ).

 

There’s more but I think that gives you a good idea of some of the things he’s done.

 

He never said they were degenerate, and they are aberrant, which only means to be different from the usual. The vast majority of chapters are Codex following, and the majority of chapters are Ultramarines successors (which, by the way, wasn't him either). So it isn't unfair to say that a Space Marine chapter is usually Codex adherent. The proportion of non-Codex chapters decreased with each decade too; if we look at the Indices Astartes for the non-Codexers, we find that they are indeed passed over as a source of new geneseed; there are no Black Templars or Space Wolves successors (the Wolf Brothers died out).

 

Yes, but the White Scars (who Ward is now trying to claim are following the codex) and Salamanders seem to be doing remarkably well and are noted to have successor chapters. Hell, the Raven Guard use a very different command structure than the Ultras and they’re only being held back by limited gene stock. Not to mention that the Black Templars currently outnumber any codex adherent chapter by at least five to one, hardly sounds like an aberration which is dying out does it.

What’s worse is the way he describes them though, and puts them into context. After listing how great and awesome the Ultramarines are, how all who have Guilliman’s geneseed will follow their beck and call, how all other chapters from other primarchs look up to Guilliman and follow his teachings; Ward writes disparagingly how they are “looking to their own founder’s ways of war and caring little about how they fare in the eyes of others.”

 

Dark Angels successors are rare because they are mistrusted.

 

Which has an obvious solution behind dealing with them; just don’t tell new chapters where their geneseed comes from when the use the El’Johnson’s genetic legacy.

 

Blood Angels successors are rare because their geneseed is catastrophically flawed.

 

And this is a reason they should regard themselves as being second rate space marines and following Guilliman over Sanguinius why?

 

Did he say that? The Ultramarines are held in very high regard, and many chapters regard Guilliman as their spiritual liege. Neither of those concepts were invented by him.

 

Page 24, with the specific part quoted above.

 

1. The Blood Angels do want to be like the Ultramarines, in a superficial way. The Black Rage is not something they embrace. It is not something they are even proud of. They would much rather not have their men become uncontrollable berserkers before combat. In this regard, they do want to be like the Ultramarines in the sense that they would rather be closer to the Ultramarine model of a chapter than they are now. Ward could have said it a hell of a lot better, however.

 

2. It is well documented in Index Astartes: The Codex Astartes and in Index Astartes: Blood Angels that the Blood Angels follow the tenets of the Codex Astartes in many, if not all things, being limited by their geneseed.

 

He also said the following in the Blood Angels codex he wrote: "Indeed, it was Guilliman who would have the greatest lasting effect upon the now leaderless Blood Angels. Through the Codex Astartes - that great treatise on the restructuring and ordering of the Space Marines - Guilliman's legacy would reshape the Blood Angels Legion into the Chapters that defend the Imperium to this day."

Sounds almost as if Ward’s trying to portray them as following Guilliman over their own lord primarch, and any credit for their successes and victories should go to him, doesn’t it. I don’t have a problem with them being codex adherent, just that Ward’s written bits to make it look like they’re second rate space marines who follow his favourite primarch and are trying desperately hard to be Ultramarines.

 

Wait, no, sorry I still don’t follow why they think it’s a good idea to be incredibly codex adherent.

 

3. Why shouldn't they hold him in high regard? He was still a mighty primarch and held the Imperium together in a great time of crisis. His Codex forms a core part of their organisation and tactics. Are you saying that all the Chapters simply reject as useless those primarchs who aren't their primogenitor?

 

No, but I still don’t get why the Blood Angels would be written to favour and hail the glories of one primarch from an entirely different legion rather than the one who led them to multiple victories, is the gene father of their chapter and died fighting alongside them in the greatest battle of the Imperium’s history. Even if one primarch could be seen to be better than theirs, they still wouldn’t pray and worship to him over their own one.

 

For example, Rogal Dorn served as the Emperor’s Champion and helped to defend Terra, fortified it to withstand almost all of Horus’ armada, effectively holding the line and being heavily responsible for the Imperial’s narrow victory during the Heresy and playing a more prominent role than Guilliman did during that time.

By the same logic you’ve stated the Ultras should be yelling “Hail Dorn! Defender of the Emperor! The reason for our victory against the traitors! All Hail Lord Dorn!” and favouring worshipping him over Guilliman.

 

But did he say "all," or merely "many?" If it is the latter, he did not invent the concept; a similar phrase appears in Index Astartes: Ultramarines.

 

That's more excusable due to the source and the fact it's ultimately being written from the Ultramarine's personal views and accounts, sort of in the same way accounts of events can change depending upon which side is being written about.

 

The difference between the two is the Space Marine codex is meant to cover almost all of the Adeptus Astartes, and rather than opinion Ward seems to actually trying to force the idea that the Ultramarines are canonically and factually the best at everything as well as all but a few chapters hailing them.

[Walter Payton]

It does say that in Codex GK as well- that the Grey Knights "wield power that would corrupt a mortal in an instant" (which is why they need the protection given by their geneseed).

 

First off, that book is a canon black hole. As far as i'm concerned none of it counts towards anything in the universe of 40K due to the sheer lunacy of its content, the geneseed part just for starters, and it's the same book which had Grey Knights shrugging off orbital bombardments along with a man running about the warp and destroying the domains of the chaos gods.

 

It's not exactly the most reliable source to cite, especially considering the author.

 

Canon's canon. What we as hobbyists think of it is irrelevant.

 

 

Given that Matt Ward wrote very little of the Ultramarines fluff in Codex: Space Marines, the bulk of it being lifted from Index Astartes: Ultramarines and the 2nd Edition Codex: Ultramarines, what are you referring to?

 

- Calgar is now the second greatest Ultramarine behind Guilliman himself, no complaints there, but he's now got a long standing record of killing daemon princes and eldar avatars in single combat.

 

Avatar singular. We have to remember that the Battle of Orar's Sepulchre is a notable battle. It is extraordinary because he killed an Avatar. Personally, I see killing an Avatar as being an example of the kind of extraordinary act a Space Marine Chapter Master might find himself performing in the course of his career. It never implies he does this every day.

 

- Sicarius is so great his name serves as a byword for victory even beyond the realm of Ultramar

 

So the 2nd Captain of the Ultramarines is renowned throughout the Imperium. Doesn't seem strange, really.

 

- Tigurius now has apparently near pinpoint precognitive abilities and an incredibly powerful sixth sense which allows him to follow multiple “hunches” and constantly discover useful and is so good he is thought to be directly guided by the Emperor’s hand. And is also second only to the Emperor in terms of psychic power if one source is to be believed.

 

The "second only to the Emperor," line is from 4th ed.

 

- The Ultramarines now have the most skilled marksmen amongst all of the space marine chapters according to Telion’s bio.

 

Fair, but pro-Ultras hyperbole is not new.

 

And yes, Sicarius did have a background prior to this as he was created for the Medusa V campaign.

 

Actually he had background before even that; he was mentioned in name only in 4th Ed, on a caption to a photo of a bald Commander with a plasma pistol and a lighting claw. Why is this relevant? He was barely elaborated upon in Medusa V, although it is worth noting he was so skilled then that he had overall command of the SM forces on Medusa.

 

Huge chunks of the codex is dedicated to how great and awesome the Ultramarines are, claiming that all chapters save for those who do not follow the codex astartes attempt to be as in keeping with the doctrine as possible and will “ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great primarch (Guilliman)”. Even implying they are second rate by stating “These chapters can never be Ultramarines” and giving no hint that any of them follow the primarchs they take their gene seed from rather than Guilliman.

 

It is written poorly, yes. But it is not unfair to suggest that Blood Angels want to be like the Ultramarines (in a way), nor to suggest that they cannot be.

 

He also claims that all chapters who come from Guilliman recognise Calgar as being their lord and will follow his will in an instant specifically saying “should the Lord of Ultramar ever find himself in need of aid, he will find these Chapters ever willing and able to fight at his side” but the one time Calgar’s listed to do this he is able to easily recruit chapters with other geneseed such as the Crimson Fists.

 

So just like the way in which the Crimson Fists managed to get everyone together to help them out when things got sticky? Asking for help from allies isn't odd. The idea that the Ultramarines are respected isn't new.

 

The almost entire Horus Heresy is skipped save for the bare basic facts (Horus turned traitor and fought the Emperor) in favour of describing in detail how Guilliman and the Ultramarines apparently single handily held the Imperium together and all but the most backwards and arrogant primarch followed his glorious plan (Russ).

 

He didn't write that either.

 

He never said they were degenerate, and they are aberrant, which only means to be different from the usual. The vast majority of chapters are Codex following, and the majority of chapters are Ultramarines successors (which, by the way, wasn't him either). So it isn't unfair to say that a Space Marine chapter is usually Codex adherent. The proportion of non-Codex chapters decreased with each decade too; if we look at the Indices Astartes for the non-Codexers, we find that they are indeed passed over as a source of new geneseed; there are no Black Templars or Space Wolves successors (the Wolf Brothers died out).

 

Yes, but the White Scars (who Ward is now trying to claim are following the codex)

 

Well, the Scars have always been listed in C:SM.

 

Ultramarines have always has remarkably pure genestock and have always been the favoured source for new foundings:

 

"[Their geneseed] is by far the purest stock." (IA: Ultramarines)

 

"The preferred source for new foundings."

 

Not to mention that the Black Templars currently outnumber any codex adherent chapter by at least five to one, hardly sounds like an aberration which is dying out does it?

 

He means that non-adherent chapters are lessening, not that the individual marines are. Chapters get wiped out. Non-adherents are less likely to be replaced as they are less popular in the eyes of the High Lords. Thus, they are harder to replace, so the number lessens. The Salamanders and Raven Guard are, fundamentally, Codex Chapters, by the way:

 

"The Salamanders follow normal Space Marine tactical and strategic dogma [i.e the Codex] with a slight variation to compensate for their physical and mental traits."

 

how all other chapters from other primarchs look up to Guilliman and follow his teachings

 

Many do. The chapters still respect those primarchs who are not their own. Any Codex-adherent chapter or a chapter that even appreciates the Codex "follows his teachings," to a greater or lesser ectent

 

Ward writes disparagingly how they are “looking to their own founder’s ways of war and caring little about how they fare in the eyes of others.”

 

I don't see the disparagement there, frankly. "Looking to their own founder's ways of war." Well, er, yes they are. "Caring little about how they fare in the eyes of others." So other people hold them disdain for not following the Codex. Not new or even unique to Ward. They do not care about this. Good for them.

 

Dark Angels successors are rare because they are mistrusted.

 

Which has an obvious solution behind dealing with them; just don’t tell new chapters where their geneseed comes from when the use the El’Johnson’s genetic legacy.

 

Well, not such an obvious solution, given that they have A: always been mistrusted (Index Astartes: DA, Codex: DA) B: this has never been mooted as a possible solution and C: it strikes me as an incredibly poor idea not to let an apothecary know which primarch their geneseed has come from.

 

Blood Angels successors are rare because their geneseed is catastrophically flawed.

 

And this is a reason they should regard themselves as being second rate space marines and following Guilliman over Sanguinius why?

 

They don't and they don't.

 

[

1. The Blood Angels do want to be like the Ultramarines, in a superficial way. The Black Rage is not something they embrace. It is not something they are even proud of. They would much rather not have their men become uncontrollable berserkers before combat. In this regard, they do want to be like the Ultramarines in the sense that they would rather be closer to the Ultramarine model of a chapter than they are now. Ward could have said it a hell of a lot better, however.

 

2. It is well documented in Index Astartes: The Codex Astartes and in Index Astartes: Blood Angels that the Blood Angels follow the tenets of the Codex Astartes in many, if not all things, being limited by their geneseed.

 

He also said the following in the Blood Angels codex he wrote: "Indeed, it was Guilliman who would have the greatest lasting effect upon the now leaderless Blood Angels. Through the Codex Astartes - that great treatise on the restructuring and ordering of the Space Marines - Guilliman's legacy would reshape the Blood Angels Legion into the Chapters that defend the Imperium to this day."

Sounds almost as if Ward’s trying to portray them as following Guilliman over their own lord primarch, and any credit for their successes and victories should go to him, doesn’t it. I don’t have a problem with them being codex adherent, just that Ward’s written bits to make it look like they’re second rate space marines who follow his favourite primarch and are trying desperately hard to be Ultramarines.

 

Wait, no, sorry I still don’t follow why they think it’s a good idea to be incredibly codex adherent.

 

No, he is stating merely that Guilliman had a great lasting effect upon them. They do follow Guilliman to the extent that all chapers organised according to the Codex follow his teachings. He has written poorly, but it does not portray them as second-rate. This is the same Matt Ward who described the "second-rate," Blood Angels as "the noblest of all SM chapters." By the way, the Blood Angels follow the Codex in many regards:

 

"The Blood Angels share much of their organisation with their brother Space Marines." (Index Astartes: Blood Angels)

 

"Examples of chapters that adhere broadly to the tenets of the Codex but differ in some ways due to primarch or geneseed." (Index Astartes: Codex Astartes)

 

3. Why shouldn't they hold him in high regard? He was still a mighty primarch and held the Imperium together in a great time of crisis. His Codex forms a core part of their organisation and tactics. Are you saying that all the Chapters simply reject as useless those primarchs who aren't their primogenitor?

 

No, but I still don’t get why the Blood Angels would be written to favour and hail the glories of one primarch from an entirely different legion rather than the one who led them to multiple victories, is the gene father of their chapter and died fighting alongside them in the greatest battle of the Imperium’s history. Even if one primarch could be seen to be better than theirs, they still wouldn’t pray and worship to him over their own one.

 

But it never implies that, merely that the Blood Angels adopted Guilliman's codex and respect him. Neither is a particularly contentious concept.

[Iron Lord]

Going by this

 

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=2210

 

the Dark Heresy version of the Grey Knights will have things like Dreadknights, Purgation squads, and so on.

 

So- if you subscribe to the view that Dark Heresy is "more canonical" than Codex GK is- then it looks like some of the GK changes may end up being cemented into that system as well.

[Brother-Kezek]

Their is a difference between sorcery and pychic power. Luther is a good example of this.

[jeffersonian000]

Didn't that Rune Priest in Propero Burns describe the different between psychic power and sorcery was that Psykers control their power through force of will while Sorcerers use rituals, yet the source of their power was the same? We see that Rune Priests use a combination of both techniques, which is no different than the Sorcerers of the Thousand Sons except that all of the Thousand Sons had personal Avatars they could call upon for power and to give tasks to. This means that the only real difference between the two is the mystique and the binding.

 

SJ

[Iron Lord]

He used the term sorcery as a general term- for "magic" as a whole.

 

"Malificarum" (forbidden magic) was "any sorcery not performed under the most stringent of psyker control".

[Codicier Lucion]

Sorry for the late reply but my internet is on the blink, if I end up being slightly delayed in my responses it’s only because I can’t get online.

 

Canon's canon. What we as hobbyists think of it is irrelevant.

 

If a writer manages to write something so divergent from the basic aspects of the universe, or in these cases the armies he’s writing about, it’s extremely hard to consider them canon.

 

Case and point: Draigo. A character so badly written most people I’ve met think he’s a non-canon parody added as a joke.

 

 

Avatar singular. We have to remember that the Battle of Orar's Sepulchre is a notable battle. It is extraordinary because he killed an Avatar. Personally, I see killing an Avatar as being an example of the kind of extraordinary act a Space Marine Chapter Master might find himself performing in the course of his career. It never implies he does this every day.

 

And yet it lists him single handedly fighting off a daemon prince to reclaim a star fort and single handedly holding a gate against an entire Ork Waaagh!

 

Any one of these things should have been the peak of his achievements, and with most other chapter masters they were. As superhuman as the space marines are, as powerful and experienced as chapter masters like Calgar are, they should not be able to repeatedly perform acts such as this on a frequent basis.

 

As for the Avatar, he beat it in only a few seconds. I’ll admit I’m glad to see Ward noted it actually wounded him before he struck it down and it took nearly all his strength; but he’s shown to have expended about as much effort to kill it as a daemonsword carrying Fulgrim did in the Horus Heresy series.

 

So the 2nd Captain of the Ultramarines is renowned throughout the Imperium. Doesn't seem strange, really.

 

I was more complaining about the fact his second company was noted to be the best fighting unit out of every single last space marine chapter in existence, adding yet another thing Ward thinks the Ultras are the absolute best at.

Despite their chapter not having been involved in a great deal of the major wars and events in the Imperium’s ten thousand year history.

 

In addition to this I don’t have a problem with him being renowned throughout the Imperium, that’s acceptable, but that he’s apparently so good at his job that his name has become a byword for victory. I can think of a dozen other Imperial characters who have led their armies to greater victories, and this is ignoring the primarchs, and have been a part of much greater victories than he. Macharius for one example, Russ for another, Dante, Yarrick, Tu’Shan, Aurellian for others and quite a few more.

 

The "second only to the Emperor," line is from 4th ed.

 

Actually it isn’t. In the three paragraphs of his bio not once does it state that he is the second greatest psycher to the Emperor instead just calling him “one of the most powerful in the Imperium”. Nor does it state that he is so great and so powerful that most of his predictions and hunches help Ultramar to deflect attack after attack. Instead that bit is noted to be specifically against Ork Waaghs! is due to his origins and being an expert upon the Orks.

 

Fair, but pro-Ultras hyperbole is not new.

 

No, but in past codexes they were at least presented as failible and didn’t have section upon section expressing how awesome they are. Nor were they ever stated to be the absolute best at everything as suggested repeatedly by Ward in the 5th edition codex.

 

Actually he had background before even that; he was mentioned in name only in 4th Ed, on a caption to a photo of a bald Commander with a plasma pistol and a lighting claw. Why is this relevant? He was barely elaborated upon in Medusa V, although it is worth noting he was so skilled then that he had overall command of the SM forces on Medusa.

 

I posted that because the last few times I brought up Sicarius as a character Ward has changed and superpowered, someone has tried to point out he’s a new character for not being in the last codex.

Medusa V showed him to be a good commander, and as you’ve noted before it showed him to be someone who was skilled at leadership, but not someone who is presented as such a genius he has perfected a form of combat in one lifetime which other chapters have spent their entire existences following.

 

Also he had two lightning claws in his model.

 

It is written poorly, yes. But it is not unfair to suggest that Blood Angels want to be like the Ultramarines (in a way), nor to suggest that they cannot be.

 

It’s also not unfair to try and state that the Ultramarines would want to be like the Imperial Fists due to their steadfastness, but you don’t see any writer trying to make the Ultras sound like a second rate chapter who serve as fanboys for someone from an entirely different primarch.

 

And yet Ward seems to see nothing wrong with making all other chapters subservient and Guilliman sound like the Emperor’s hand picked successor.

 

He also claims that all chapters who come from Guilliman recognise Calgar as being their lord and will follow his will in an instant specifically saying “should the Lord of Ultramar ever find himself in need of aid, he will find these Chapters ever willing and able to fight at his side” but the one time Calgar’s listed to do this he is able to easily recruit chapters with other geneseed such as the Crimson Fists.

 

So just like the way in which the Crimson Fists managed to get everyone together to help them out when things got sticky? Asking for help from allies isn't odd. The idea that the Ultramarines are respected isn't new.

 

No, it’s more to do with Ward contradicting himself and once more trying to show other chapters as weak willed boot lickers to the Ultramarines. Ward specifically noted that only chapters with Guilliman’s geneseed are those who would leap at the chance to help Calgar and yet it’s a chapter with Dorn’s geneseed, a second founding one at that, who comes running to their aid like the subservient lapdogs the writer tries to present them as.

 

He didn't write that either.

 

He expanded upon the Guilliman worship and detailed how awesome it was for chapters to follow his codex astartes. Unlike the fourth edition book Ward had the chance to expand upon how other chapters are presented, give more details upon the Heresy and make it more balanced in its presentation, but he only used it as an opportunity to ram more Ultramarine praise down the reader’s throat.

 

Well, the Scars have always been listed in C:SM.

 

Ultramarines have always has remarkably pure genestock and have always been the favoured source for new foundings:

 

"[Their geneseed] is by far the purest stock." (IA: Ultramarines)

 

"The preferred source for new foundings."

 

And? It doesn’t mean that all new chapters should be shown as second rate Ultramarines and any chapter who shows some intelligence and expands from the codex at all is instantly a backwards fool who is part of a dying breed.

 

He means that non-adherent chapters are lessening, not that the individual marines are. Chapters get wiped out. Non-adherents are less likely to be replaced as they are less popular in the eyes of the High Lords. Thus, they are harder to replace, so the number lessens. The Salamanders and Raven Guard are, fundamentally, Codex Chapters, by the way:

 

"The Salamanders follow normal Space Marine tactical and strategic dogma [i.e the Codex] with a slight variation to compensate for their physical and mental traits."

 

Which is naturally why the Salamanders organisation and structure resembles nothing listed in the codex and is closer to the Space Wolves’ company organisation than anyone else. Though I’m surprised that Ward didn’t label those traits as imperfections or deficiencies along with his retcon to make their dark skin a genetic impurity.

 

In addition to this, I stated specifically that the Raven Guard have a very different command structure, not relying upon a single source for orders and leadership as well as allowing companies to work independently. In much the same way the Alpha Legion did when they allegedly lost their Primarch but were left largely unaffected by the loss; using the codex’s predictability and chosen against the Ultras then severely mauling the legion.

Sort of sounds like the total opposite of Guilliman’s codex decree.

 

Many do. The chapters still respect those primarchs who are not their own. Any Codex-adherent chapter or a chapter that even appreciates the Codex "follows his teachings," to a greater or lesser ectent

 

Yes, but until now they’ve never been implied to all hold those teachings with religious fanaticism upon which breaching is a crime worthy of exile.

 

I don't see the disparagement there, frankly. "Looking to their own founder's ways of war." Well, er, yes they are. "Caring little about how they fare in the eyes of others." So other people hold them disdain for not following the Codex. Not new or even unique to Ward. They do not care about this. Good for them.

 

Except that Ward seems to imply sticking to their founder’s ways of war, as opposed to the primarch he is a fan of, is wrong. Also implying that due to simply refusing to follow the codex and doing something different they are somehow regarded as being entirely wrong, backwards and disdainful in their actions.

 

Well, not such an obvious solution, given that they have A: always been mistrusted (Index Astartes: DA, Codex: DA) B: this has never been mooted as a possible solution and C: it strikes me as an incredibly poor idea not to let an apothecary know which primarch their geneseed has come from.

 

A: It’s hard for a chapter to give reasons to be mistrustful if they’re not a part of the Unforgiven and performing the actions of hunting down the Fallen. As well as giving the High Lords reason to mistrust them.

B& C: This has never been considered as a possible solution and yet a good number of chapters do not know of their origins, or primarch, and yet they seem to have no problems. The Blood Ravens, Angels of Fire, Celebrants, Sable Swords and quite a few others don’t seem to know their geneseed origins and they suffer no problems. Hell, the Astral Claws had no idea where they came from and were more or less successfully boosting their own numbers and rebuiling the Tiger Claws without problem until the Badab War.

 

It’s an obvious solution and would allow more chapters to be created.

 

They don't and they don't.

 

And yet Ward seems to present them as such even in their own codex.

 

No, he is stating merely that Guilliman had a great lasting effect upon them. They do follow Guilliman to the extent that all chapers organised according to the Codex follow his teachings. He has written poorly, but it does not portray them as second-rate. This is the same Matt Ward who described the "second-rate," Blood Angels as "the noblest of all SM chapters." By the way, the Blood Angels follow the Codex in many regards:

 

"The Blood Angels share much of their organisation with their brother Space Marines." (Index Astartes: Blood Angels)

 

"Examples of chapters that adhere broadly to the tenets of the Codex but differ in some ways due to primarch or geneseed." (Index Astartes: Codex Astartes)

 

And? In that case he should have just put that they followed the codex closely rather than going off in his usual tangent involving hailing the Ultramarines as the greatest force in 40K. Trying to suggest that Guilliman, as stated before, is largely responsible for any greatness on the Blood Angels part.

A great deal of his poor writing seems to continuously suggest favoritism upon his part and attempts to promote the Ultramarines as being superior in every way to all other chapters.

 

Calling them the noblest of all space marine chapters is hardly a compliment when compared to his continual descriptions of the Ultramarines as “the best” of all of them.

 

But it never implies that, merely that the Blood Angels adopted Guilliman's codex and respect him. Neither is a particularly contentious concept.

 

If Ward had wanted to show that then he would have just called them codex compliant and said they followed the texts closely. As opposed to “GUILLIMAN IS THE GREATEST! THE BLOOD ANGELS OWE ALL TO HIM! ALL HAIL GUILLIMAN!” in his usual unsubtle manner, he clearly indicates that they’re more his chapter than Sanguinius’ as of his rewrites.

 

Going by this

 

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=2210

 

the Dark Heresy version of the Grey Knights will have things like Dreadknights, Purgation squads, and so on.

 

So- if you subscribe to the view that Dark Heresy is "more canonical" than Codex GK is- then it looks like some of the GK changes may end up being cemented into that system as well.

 

That's not Dark Heresy for Starters, it's the Grey Knights. Also, I think you've already proven that they're becoming less canonical in recent editions with your quote involving geneseed stability, levels of genetic failure and Space Wolf successors.

 

The Grey Knights are probably more a case of Games Workshop trying to use the RPGs as free advertising for their products since it's been a hit.

[Iron Lord]

That's not Dark Heresy for Starters, it's the Grey Knights. Also, I think you've already proven that they're becoming less canonical in recent editions with your quote involving geneseed stability, levels of genetic failure and Space Wolf successors.

 

The first words in the article are:

 

"Recently, we announced Daemon Hunter, an upcoming supplement for Dark Heresy."

 

so- it's a supplement allowing you to use Grey Knights in Dark Heresy games.

 

The issue of geneseed stability was more for people wanting to homebrew their own successors. A rules issue rather than a fluff issue.

 

Also- it was you who cited Space Wolf successors as a good thing about Deathwatch:

 

* - Also note that in the Deathwatch RPG supplements the Space Wolves are allowed to create second founding and successor chapters. Only the successor listed in the canon was noted to have failed.

 

The term "becoming less canonical" isn't really realistic in the context of GW- a better term would be "updating and modifying the canon"

 

So- the idea that there may be a few Space Wolf successors out there, isn't "less canonical" it's a "change to the canon".