Jump the shark moment:warp jump an entire moon?

[DarKnight]

The Emperor himself banned almost all psychers in the Imperium due to the risk of sorcery, I don't think he added "Oh, unless you're Malcador" at the end of that proclimation.

 

Malcador and the Emperor were tight. He was the Emperor's most trusted advisor, closer even than Horus. Malcador could get away with it most likely.

 

Next thing you know Ward will suddenly retcon the Imperium's entire history of xenophobia and hatred of AIs so he can make the Necrons follow Guilliman.

 

They're already doing that with Sanguinius. Silent King much.

Not familar with the Silent King thing. Care to elaborate?

[Epistolary Exander]

I believe it's been pointed out earlier that the term was beginning to be used in a more general sense before Codex Grey Knights came out- and A D-B mentioned it as well.

 

I really could not care less. There's a fine line between psychic powers and sorcery, the Imperium does not use sorcery. The Imperium reprimanded the Thousand Sons for using sorcery. The Inquisition shoots those using sorcery. The people who dance naked around ancient monuments screaming out the names of the chaos gods using sacrifices and blood rituals are shot on sight. The ones who aren't sanctioned psychers and repeatedly invoke Tzeentch's name are not accepted into the Imperium because "there's no difference between psychic power and sorcery".

 

The Grey Knights do not get a free pass on this no matter how much Ward wants to overpower them in an effort to start making people write Chuck Norris jokes about Draigo.

 

The Emperor himself banned almost all psychers in the Imperium due to the risk of sorcery, I don't think he added "Oh, unless you're Malcador" at the end of that proclamation.

 

Is there a difference between using psychic powers or sorcery? If so please could you post your definition.

 

From what I am aware a psyker is an individual who can access the warp & use its energy in real space. It is for this reason that they shine brighter in the Warp.

 

The issue of GKs or Malcador using their powers is not an issue during the heresy at that point. It was already said in Legion of One that Rubeo (a librarian) was allowed to use his psychic powers & that is set before the Siege of Terra. If the Emperor had enforced the Nikkea Edict during the heresy, Guilliman would not have allowed librarians to be retained in 2nd founding chapters. Why would Guilliman do something against the Emperor's will that everybody knew about. Even more importantly Russ still allowed the SW Rune Priests to run around after Nikkea, even when he was surrounded by the Emperor's own bodyguards including Valdor who was the Chief Custodian. It could be argued how Rune Priests control nature is a form of sorcery & they get away with it just fine.

 

Next thing you know Ward will suddenly retcon the Imperium's entire history of xenophobia and hatred of AIs so he can make the Necrons follow Guilliman.

 

Give the guy a break, he is only doing his job. GW would porbably have OKd him to write the GK dex. He is human, like us & just like the people of 40K are meant to be. They are xeno phobic because they are scared of the unkown, like countless people in today's world.

 

You have to remember the GK dex is from the GK point of view. One thing we've learnt from A Thousand Sons & Prospero Buns is that armies composed of psychic marines are better than having armies made of normal marines (assuming they dont randomly mutate into spawn) in the manor he did. Look at this from the GK point of view, they know are the best because they have to be best in order for them to their job of protecting the Imperium against its most lethal threat. Due to how the Warp is a parady reflection of the Real Space, the warp spaawn could literally pop anywhere (maybe someone should have told Magnus that ). If the GKs have to make themselves X better/ different from other chapters so those other chapters have a planet to recruit from or provide the materials to make its bolters etc, then the GKs will make themselves X better than other chapters.

 

The best analogy I can think of for this situation is how the SAS have made themselves so much better than majority of the other Army/ Marines, so they can literally go in do the job & get out without people knowing. They do this to not only protect UK interests, but also the general Squadies & other Forces members out there in Theatre. If you ever read or hear about the things special forces like the SAS do compared to regular forces, you will understand why they make themselves the remarkable establishments they are.

[Octavulg]

Is there a difference between using psychic powers or sorcery? If so please could you post your definition.

 

Uh...you mean other than the whole Nikaea thing being over whether sorcery was OK or not, and the compromise position resulting was that psykers were, sorcerors weren't?

 

Not much of a compromise if they're the same...

 

Or the way Magnus screwed up the Emperor's wards by contacting him using sorcerous methods...

 

EDIT:

 

From IA: Thousand Sons:

 

"Sorcery was a knowledge that had to be sought, even bargained for, and neither man nor paragon could be certain they had the best of such bargains."

 

Sorcery is power derived from and enhanced by daemons and daemonic forces. Psychic power stems from within the psyker. Or, at least, that appears to be the intended dilineation.

[Lord_Caerolion]

As Octavulg says, you have to be born a psyker, but anyone can be a sorceror, with the right knowledge. Psychic ability is manipulating the warp yourself, and is therefore "safe", as you can stop drawing power if something's going wrong. Sorcery is getting something else to do it for you, whether that be through a daemonic pact, or using a formula or ritual to manipulate the energy. In this way, you've either got the risk of dealing with a daemon, which is always trouble, or having to rely on a formula/ritual, which works perfectly, when you get the formula/ritual right. If you don't, and you inscribed a formula to draw warp energy, for example, you might have screwed up the symbol/section that stops it drawing warp energy, so it keeps following the part of the equation saying "keep drawing energy", until it overloads and you have daemons appearing. You might have made a pentagram to summon and bind a daemon within, but you didn't close the warding circle properly, so you summon it just fine, but it isn't contained.

 

Put simply, sorcery doesn't have the "safety" that a pure psyker does. Sorcery lets you draw on far more power, but if you screw up even slightly, it could have utterly disastrous consequences. Most sorcery though is the daemon pact variety, which seems to be "true sorcery", as it were.

 

Lastly, the worst part about it is the fact that it entirely negates the Council of Nikaea. Literally only a decade ago, the Emperor had one of his Legions destroyed because they used Sorcery, it's that bad. The fact that the Emperor apparently then does a complete heel-turn on the matter just makes it stupid. It's bad enough with the whole "banning psykers entirely, then restart the Librarium program" that the new fluff introduced, without having it that not 10 years after the Emperor had the Thousand Sons annihilated he decides that sorcerors are perfectly fine, and that he could sure go for a bunch of Space Marine sorcerors.

Funnily enough, Ward, the Imperium does give a damn about the difference between sorcery and psychic ability. The latter is fine, when monitored, but the first is purest heresy against the Emperor, enough to make him want to destroy one of the Primarchs. You can't really have any more of a difference. Good job at completely ignoring and butchering existing background just so that you can one-up your newest codex!

[Gaz1858]

In response to the OP of moving a moon into the warp.

 

One guy has already pointed out the Phalanx was apparently the size of a small moon. Then you've got The Rock. Dark Angels fortress which is all that remains of Caliban. That could be bigger than Titan and not only goes into the warp but travels the galaxy.

 

SO yes it is possible and has been done before without claiming bad fluff. Nobody claimed bad fluff with the Phalanx and The Rock.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Except as again, those structures were extensively constructed for warp-jumps. Titan basically had some muttered rituals, and maybe some hastily build gellar generators, and that's it. Two completely different things.

[Sons of Horus]

The Phalanx was a ship built to be capable of warp travel during the Dark Age of Technology. Titan is a moon. There's a slight difference.

[Aegnor]

@ Octavulg - sorry mate, they've retconned Nikea so there was no distinction drawn between psychic power and sorcery. That new interpretation is consistent with what's in the GK codex. Whether we think it's a good change or not, our opinion is irrelevant to what is the current canon. Plenty of things get retconned, not all of them are universally considered improvements.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Nope, there's still a difference, but the Emperor outlawed them both. Just because two things are outlawed doesn't mean they're the same thing. Remember, Magnus still argued in favour of both, where the Librarians argued in favour of psychic ability but not sorcery, while Mortarion and pals argued against both. We didn't see all the arguements, remember, so the old description of the arguments put forward still hold true.

Arguing that they're both the same because they're both outlawed is like saying murder is the same as theft, because they're both crimes.

[Epistolary Exander]

As Octavulg says, you have to be born a psyker, but anyone can be a sorceror, with the right knowledge. Psychic ability is manipulating the warp yourself, and is therefore "safe", as you can stop drawing power if something's going wrong. Sorcery is getting something else to do it for you, whether that be through a daemonic pact, or using a formula or ritual to manipulate the energy. In this way, you've either got the risk of dealing with a daemon, which is always trouble, or having to rely on a formula/ritual, which works perfectly, when you get the formula/ritual right. If you don't, and you inscribed a formula to draw warp energy, for example, you might have screwed up the symbol/section that stops it drawing warp energy, so it keeps following the part of the equation saying "keep drawing energy", until it overloads and you have daemons appearing. You might have made a pentagram to summon and bind a daemon within, but you didn't close the warding circle properly, so you summon it just fine, but it isn't contained.

 

Put simply, sorcery doesn't have the "safety" that a pure psyker does. Sorcery lets you draw on far more power, but if you screw up even slightly, it could have utterly disastrous consequences. Most sorcery though is the daemon pact variety, which seems to be "true sorcery", as it were.

 

I think you have the entire nature of sorcery wrong. In A Thousand Sons it mentions that the original Terran members of the Thousand Sons randomly gain their powers without wanting or looking for them. The original librariums of the legions were set up because Magnus pushed for it & he was instrumental in establishing libraiums in those legions who followed his desire in that regard. From a practical point of view it appears the Thousand Sons were the first legion to have librarians& so it would appear that Thousand Sons would have taught the orginal librarians across the other legions. Or at the very least that Magnus would have had significant input into their schooling. At that point Magnus thought all manipulation of the Warp was due to psychic power.

 

You only have to look at the nature of the Warp to gain an idea of how psychic powers/ sorcery works. The Warp is the reflection of the thoughts of the souls of those in real space. A psyker is an person who naturally can access power from the Warp currents & channel it into real space. Considering most of the Warp is made up of the 4 warp gods domains/ entities, most of energy being used by psykers will unwittingly come from one of the chaos gods. Would that make them sorcerers?

 

You don’t even have to knowingly/ consciously/ desire seeking to use the power of the warp gods to be gifted with active psychic abilities/ power. As I have said previously the Thousand Sons legion were given their powers directly from Tzeentch without realizing it. Even look at Magnus he only reached Terra through the webway because the Warp/ Tzeentch gave him the power to tear the webway structure open so he could enter (admittedly this tear did allow chaos forces to enter aswel). You don’t even have to born psychic to use psychic/ sorcerous abilities. Leilani Mollitas was able to become a psyker, even though she originally was a pariah & couldn’t be affected by psychic powers.

What I am trying to say is that the line between sorcery & psychic powers is very blurred & it may not even be distinguishable from each other. Would you say it sorcery if an Imperial psyker uses his abilities to summon the Legion of the Damned (I day this as it appears they are the Emperor’s daemons) to help his cause?

 

Lastly, the worst part about it is the fact that it entirely negates the Council of Nikaea. Literally only a decade ago, the Emperor had one of his Legions destroyed because they used Sorcery, it's that bad. The fact that the Emperor apparently then does a complete heel-turn on the matter just makes it stupid. It's bad enough with the whole "banning psykers entirely, then restart the Librarium program" that the new fluff introduced, without having it that not 10 years after the Emperor had the Thousand Sons annihilated he decides that sorcerors are perfectly fine, and that he could sure go for a bunch of Space Marine sorcerors.

 

Funnily enough, Ward, the Imperium does give a damn about the difference between sorcery and psychic ability. The latter is fine, when monitored, but the first is purest heresy against the Emperor, enough to make him want to destroy one of the Primarchs. You can't really have any more of a difference. Good job at completely ignoring and butchering existing background just so that you can one-up your newest codex!

 

You a grasp of what is going on but, not why it is happening.

 

The Emperor did order the arrest & possible destruction of the Thousand Sons by the Wolves. The Emperor wanted to have Magnus so he could sit on the Golden Throne, which could have killed him, but certainly it would have cost him a lot. Yet the reason why the order was given was because a chaos daemon was at Nikkea pretending to be Amon & thereby tricking the Imperium into thinking the Thousands were something they were not. On top of this Warp & Horus both manipulated the Wolves into attacking the Thousand Sons with the intention of destroying this misunderstood legion.

 

Of course the Imperium will allow certain people to use unfettered psychic abilities when the results justify the means of protecting eradicating the most lethal of foes. This principle has been used in our enlightened times by certain Western countries to protect themselves from Terrorism. They have done this by allowing elite counter terrorism units to get away with murder on foreign soil, while at the same time allowing any of their citizens who commit murder to be punished whether the crime was committed on their land or in another country. Its simply the pragmatic way how governments work either now or in 40K, there is no other way at times.

 

This goes onto why the Imperium started to use psychic powers again. Simply put it had no choice but to. The traitor forces were using warp derived abilities to give them an advantage, all across the Imperium. The traditional defense of using the Sisters of Silence would have been useless as there was not enough of them to go around to protect Imperial forces. So they would have to counter this threat another way & the only way they could do that was if they started using their psykers again for which would be readily more available than a pariah. Loyalist psykers would be able to use the abilities to sense & try to counter what ever warp based abilities/ advantage the chaos forces were using.

 

It goes back to eternal saying “Necessity is the mother of invention” & there is no greater necessity than in war time.

[Epistolary Exander]

As Octavulg says, you have to be born a psyker, but anyone can be a sorceror, with the right knowledge. Psychic ability is manipulating the warp yourself, and is therefore "safe", as you can stop drawing power if something's going wrong. Sorcery is getting something else to do it for you, whether that be through a daemonic pact, or using a formula or ritual to manipulate the energy. In this way, you've either got the risk of dealing with a daemon, which is always trouble, or having to rely on a formula/ritual, which works perfectly, when you get the formula/ritual right. If you don't, and you inscribed a formula to draw warp energy, for example, you might have screwed up the symbol/section that stops it drawing warp energy, so it keeps following the part of the equation saying "keep drawing energy", until it overloads and you have daemons appearing. You might have made a pentagram to summon and bind a daemon within, but you didn't close the warding circle properly, so you summon it just fine, but it isn't contained.

 

Put simply, sorcery doesn't have the "safety" that a pure psyker does. Sorcery lets you draw on far more power, but if you screw up even slightly, it could have utterly disastrous consequences. Most sorcery though is the daemon pact variety, which seems to be "true sorcery", as it were.

 

I think you have the entire nature of sorcery wrong. In A Thousand Sons it mentions that the original Terran members of the Thousand Sons randomly gain their powers without wanting or looking for them. The original librariums of the legions were set up because Magnus pushed for it & he was instrumental in establishing libraiums in those legions who followed his desire in that regard. From a practical point of view it appears the Thousand Sons were the first legion to have librarians& so it would appear that Thousand Sons would have taught the orginal librarians across the other legions. Or at the very least that Magnus would have had significant input into their schooling. At that point Magnus thought all manipulation of the Warp was due to psychic power.

 

You only have to look at the nature of the Warp to gain an idea of how psychic powers/ sorcery works. The Warp is the reflection of the thoughts of the souls of those in real space. A psyker is an person who naturally can access power from the Warp currents & channel it into real space. Considering most of the Warp is made up of the 4 warp gods domains/ entities, most of energy being used by psykers will unwittingly come from one of the chaos gods. Would that make them sorcerers?

 

You don’t even have to knowingly/ consciously/ desire seeking to use the power of the warp gods to be gifted with active psychic abilities/ power. As I have said previously the Thousand Sons legion were given their powers directly from Tzeentch without realizing it. Even look at Magnus he only reached Terra through the webway because the Warp/ Tzeentch gave him the power to tear the webway structure open so he could enter (admittedly this tear did allow chaos forces to enter aswel). You don’t even have to born psychic to use psychic/ sorcerous abilities. Leilani Mollitas was able to become a psyker, even though she originally was a pariah & couldn’t be affected by psychic powers.

 

What I am trying to say is that the line between sorcery & psychic powers is very blurred & it may not even be distinguishable from each other. Would you say it sorcery if an Imperial psyker uses his abilities to summon the Legion of the Damned (I day this as it appears they are the Emperor’s daemons) to help his cause?

 

Lastly, the worst part about it is the fact that it entirely negates the Council of Nikaea. Literally only a decade ago, the Emperor had one of his Legions destroyed because they used Sorcery, it's that bad. The fact that the Emperor apparently then does a complete heel-turn on the matter just makes it stupid. It's bad enough with the whole "banning psykers entirely, then restart the Librarium program" that the new fluff introduced, without having it that not 10 years after the Emperor had the Thousand Sons annihilated he decides that sorcerors are perfectly fine, and that he could sure go for a bunch of Space Marine sorcerors.

 

Funnily enough, Ward, the Imperium does give a damn about the difference between sorcery and psychic ability. The latter is fine, when monitored, but the first is purest heresy against the Emperor, enough to make him want to destroy one of the Primarchs. You can't really have any more of a difference. Good job at completely ignoring and butchering existing background just so that you can one-up your newest codex!

 

You have a grasp of what is going on but, not why it is happening.

 

The Emperor did order the arrest & possible destruction of the Thousand Sons by the Wolves. The Emperor wanted to have Magnus so he could sit on the Golden Throne, which could have killed him, but certainly it would have cost him a lot. Yet the reason why the order was given was because a chaos daemon was at Nikkea pretending to be Amon & thereby tricking the Imperium into thinking the Thousands were something they were not. On top of this Warp & Horus both manipulated the Wolves into attacking the Thousand Sons with the intention of destroying this misunderstood legion.

 

Of course the Imperium will allow certain people to use unfettered psychic abilities when the results justify the means of protecting eradicating the most lethal of foes. This principle has been used in our enlightened times by certain Western countries to protect themselves from Terrorism. They have done this by allowing elite counter terrorism units to get away with murder on foreign soil, while at the same time allowing any of their citizens who commit murder to be punished whether the crime was committed on their land or in another country. Its simply the pragmatic way how governments work either now or in 40K, there is no other way at times.

 

This goes onto why the Imperium started to use psychic powers again. Simply put it had no choice but to. The traitor forces were using warp derived abilities to give them an advantage, all across the Imperium. The traditional defense of using the Sisters of Silence would have been useless as there was not enough of them to go around to protect Imperial forces. So they would have to counter this threat another way & the only way they could do that was if they started using their psykers again for which would be readily more available than a pariah. Loyalist psykers would be able to use the abilities to sense & try to counter what ever warp based abilities/ advantage the chaos forces were using.

 

It goes back to eternal saying “Necessity is the mother of invention” & there is no greater necessity than in war time.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Except as again, those structures were extensively constructed for warp-jumps. Titan basically had some muttered rituals, and maybe some hastily build gellar generators, and that's it. Two completely different things.

pg 6 Grey Knights Codex. "Through sorcerous means, the Sigilite had long ago shielded the moon from the sight and deeds of loyalists and traitos alike"

 

I think Titan was prepared long before the HH started, before Nikaea. The Emperor saw it all coming and planned for the Grey Knights future. He knew that he could not trust most Astartes. He did not even trust the Primarchs. Only those who could be proven to be loyal beyond doubt would be worthy. It would take something on the scale of the HH to forge the ones he needed. On the battle fields of Calath, Istvaan, Prospero would they be subjected the trials of fire so intense the survivors would be like Diamonds to lumps of coal.

 

I think that the Grey Knights are better by many degrees then all other Astartes. Maybe not as much as a Astartes is to a guardsman but it is a clear difference. In addition to the Gear, Psykers + Sorcery, Training. They have something more. They have the combined battle knowledge of the Luna Wolves, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Iron Warriors, Emperors Children, Ultramariens.

What if they are able to learn and teach whatever Loken unlocked while he was buried under the rubble on Istvaan III. If they could all have a Cerberus power up grade.....

Add that to the Shrouding which if I'm right can protect them even from a orbital bombardment you have a force that should be unstoppable.

 

Nope, there's still a difference, but the Emperor outlawed them both. Just because two things are outlawed doesn't mean they're the same thing. Remember, Magnus still argued in favour of both, where the Librarians argued in favour of psychic ability but not sorcery, while Mortarion and pals argued against both. We didn't see all the arguements, remember, so the old description of the arguments put forward still hold true.

Arguing that they're both the same because they're both outlawed is like saying murder is the same as theft, because they're both crimes.

 

I agree 100%. I think the Grey Knights use both psykers and sorcery. I think they alone are sanctioned to do so. Also maybe the Ordo Malleus. Why the Emperor was ok with it is unclear but i do thik it was a part of his plan all along.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I think you have the entire nature of sorcery wrong. In A Thousand Sons it mentions that the original Terran members of the Thousand Sons randomly gain their powers without wanting or looking for them. The original librariums of the legions were set up because Magnus pushed for it & he was instrumental in establishing libraiums in those legions who followed his desire in that regard. From a practical point of view it appears the Thousand Sons were the first legion to have librarians& so it would appear that Thousand Sons would have taught the orginal librarians across the other legions. Or at the very least that Magnus would have had significant input into their schooling. At that point Magnus thought all manipulation of the Warp was due to psychic power.

 

You only have to look at the nature of the Warp to gain an idea of how psychic powers/ sorcery works. The Warp is the reflection of the thoughts of the souls of those in real space. A psyker is an person who naturally can access power from the Warp currents & channel it into real space. Considering most of the Warp is made up of the 4 warp gods domains/ entities, most of energy being used by psykers will unwittingly come from one of the chaos gods. Would that make them sorcerers?

 

You don’t even have to knowingly/ consciously/ desire seeking to use the power of the warp gods to be gifted with active psychic abilities/ power. As I have said previously the Thousand Sons legion were given their powers directly from Tzeentch without realizing it. Even look at Magnus he only reached Terra through the webway because the Warp/ Tzeentch gave him the power to tear the webway structure open so he could enter (admittedly this tear did allow chaos forces to enter aswel). You don’t even have to born psychic to use psychic/ sorcerous abilities. Leilani Mollitas was able to become a psyker, even though she originally was a pariah & couldn’t be affected by psychic powers.

 

What I am trying to say is that the line between sorcery & psychic powers is very blurred & it may not even be distinguishable from each other. Would you say it sorcery if an Imperial psyker uses his abilities to summon the Legion of the Damned (I day this as it appears they are the Emperor’s daemons) to help his cause?

 

Congratulations, you just agreed with me that sorcery can be utilised through daemonic aid. I'll say it again, sorcery is different in that you have to be born a psyker. You may only be latently psychic for most of your life, you may never "bloom", but you're either born psychic or you aren't. Tzeentch making the Thousand Sons sorcerors doesn't invalidate what I said in any way, if anything it proves it.

 

We know that a non-psyker can become a sorceror, because any blunt can draw a warding circle correctly, or make a daemonic pact. Being a psyker though relies purely on natural talent. You either have the "psyker gene" or you don't.

 

You don't grasp that while they have similar end effects, sorcery is utilised in a way completely different than psychic ability. Let's put it another way. A Sorceror wants to throw a "fireball". He'll either have a daemonic pact, at which point he'll have the daemon form the fireball for him. He himself does next to nothing, the daemon does it for him as dictated by the pact. This is essentially what the Thousand Sons did, coupled with a degree of inate psychic ability themselves. They could also have inscribed a ritualistic formulae on something, at which point they fulfill the "trigger", and the object manipulates warp energy in a manner that forms and hurls a fireball, if he inscribed it correctly. Once again, there is very little work done on the part of the sorceror when actually forming the fireball, only when inscribing the formula.

Conversely, a psyker trying to do the same lacks this "preparation stage", as he doesn't rely on any existing pacts or formulae to manipulate the energy, he does it himself. He himself has to draw the energy from the warp, and manipulate it into the form he wants.

 

My source for this is Disciples of the Dark Gods, specifically the sections on Sorcery, as well as the Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader rulebooks. It outright states that the Ordo Malleus regards the use of sorcery as a death sentence, stating:

What the Holy Ordos accept as truth is that through the use of certain mimetic formula and esoteric equations and theorem, expressed sometimes as simple verbal and somatic patterns (outwardly at least) or, more complexly through rituals of paradox, murder, and discord, the stuff of the Warp can bleed through to reality.

...

To undertake such practices or even to search out knowledge of them carries and immediate death sentence in the eyes of the Ordo Malleus, for the seeker damns not only himself but imperils countless others and even reality itself in his arrogance.

...

Nor is it clear where traditionally understood psychic powers end and sorcery begins. However, what all sources will agree upon is that the malefic arts are extremely dangerous to the wielder, and to meddle with such an unintelligible and fundamental force to shape reality is to court disaster at every turn.

...

It is the sacred task of the Ordo Malleus to hunt them down and destroy them before others suffer for their folly and ambition.

 

It is perhaps better put in Edge of the Abyss:

Both sorcery and psychic powers manipulate the warp. However, psychic abilities are an abnormality that manifest in a relatively rare few individuals, a pure and potent connection to the Immaterium allowing that person to manipulate the very fabric of reality. In theory, the only limits on what psykers can accomplish with their powers are the limits their own mind imposes - although in actuality many facets of a psykers life will determine what their abilities can accomplish.

Sorcery, on the other hand, is theoretically available to anyone to use. The sorcerous arts rely on formula, ritual, rite and the users own belief in such practices to briefly dip into the bottomless well of the Immaterium. Every mind - with a few rare exceptions such as the Untouchables - has a presence within and a connection to the Warp. Sorcery works through that connection.

Many sorcerors claim their practices are simply an art or misunderstood science, unjustly persecuted by oppressive organisations such as the Inquisition. However, what these deluded souls fail to realise is that sorcery is always fraught with risk. The Warp is fickle, the Warp is dangerous, and the Warp is aware of those who would use it for their own purposes. Even the most careful sorcerors are eventually consumed by the powers they attempted to control.

 

Every single source on the subject, with the exclusion of the Grey Knights codex, accepts that there is indeed a difference between sorcery and psychic ability. Every source agrees that sorcery is dangerous, and utilised differently to psychic ability, even the Horus Heresy books. A psyker summoning the Legion of the Damned wouldn't be sorcery, because he is entirely using his own ability to do so. A sorceror would rely on external help, as stated in numerous sources. The Grey Knights codex is the only source that takes the approach that sorcery is no different, the only one.

[Codicier Lucion]

Malcador and the Emperor were tight. He was the Emperor's most trusted advisor, closer even than Horus. Malcador could get away with it most likely.

 

Yeah, but can you imagine how that conversation would have gone down?

 

Malcador: Emperor, I wish to breach several of your decrees, most basic laws and use sorcery to catapult a moon with thousands of psychers and astartes from traitor marines into the warp for a hundred years or so.

Also, I need your geneseed.

Emperor: I don't have geneseed!

Malcador: Well, I need it anyway to make the Grey Knights immune to Chaos. No, don't think about that. It will just make your head hurt.

 

Not familar with the Silent King thing. Care to elaborate?

 

Ward wrote a part of the Blood Angels codex which had Dante forming an alliance with the Necrons to fight the Tyranids and then leaving on terms good enough for both not to 'dishonourably' stab one another in a back.

 

Is there a difference between using psychic powers or sorcery? If so please could you post your definition.

 

From what I am aware a psyker is an individual who can access the warp & use its energy in real space. It is for this reason that they shine brighter in the Warp.

 

A psycher is someone who uses psychic powers which are not fully corrupt, summoning the strength of the chaos gods and are safer, more reliable and more pure versions of sorcery. Sorcery involves blood rituals, directly calling upon the power of the chaos gods, binding daemons to a persons will, sacrificing others to enhance their personal power and following Chaos.

 

There is a very big difference between the two, and for a very long time there has been a clear distinction between them. It's banned within the Imperium and because it's banned you would not, until now, see space marines harbouring daemons and butchering faithful followers of the Emperor in order to defeat Khorne artefacts.

 

The issue of GKs or Malcador using their powers is not an issue during the heresy at that point. It was already said in Legion of One that Rubeo (a librarian) was allowed to use his psychic powers & that is set before the Siege of Terra.

 

And the entirety of the audio before that one focused heavily upon Rubio's conflict of whether he should use his powers or not due to being sanctioned not to call upon them. The fact Malcador was asking the Garro to follow his specific orders, even in the fact of the Emperor, suggests Malcador was doing this behind the Emperor's back and scheming in the same manner we'd seen in previous Horus Heresy instalments.

 

It did not feature the Emperor suddenly going back on a lot of his words and changing "-unless you're Malcador or the Grey Knights" at the end of every decree he had made so they could get away with heresy. Also note that Rubio was the only "Grey Knight" with any psychic power at the time of the heresy, thus your argument does not have a foot to stand on.

 

If the Emperor had enforced the Nikkea Edict during the heresy, Guilliman would not have allowed librarians to be retained in 2nd founding chapters. Why would Guilliman do something against the Emperor's will that everybody knew about.

 

Probably to help them detect corruption, fight daemons and give the Imperium back the edge it needed to fight something which they did not understand nor fully comprehend. As to why he did it we do not yet know, we don't even know it was Guilliman who suggested they go against the Emperor's decree for the second founding chapters.

 

Further more, Nikea was done because of the fears over the use of sorcery most of all.

 

Even more importantly Russ still allowed the SW Rune Priests to run around after Nikkea, even when he was surrounded by the Emperor's own bodyguards including Valdor who was the Chief Custodian. It could be argued how Rune Priests control nature is a form of sorcery & they get away with it just fine.

 

We only know of one Rune Priest who was about after Nikea using his powers, and the few lines we get from him suggests that he regarded himself as exempt from the decree due to his view that only the Space Wolves had the strength to resist corruption.

 

And no, their acts aren't sorcery because they do not have the Rune Priests yelling "Nurgle! cast your rot upon these blighted enemies of the Imperium!" or invoking the power of the Chaos gods.

 

Give the guy a break, he is only doing his job. GW would porbably have OKd him to write the GK dex. He is human, like us & just like the people of 40K are meant to be. They are xeno phobic because they are scared of the unkown, like countless people in today's world.

 

Yes, and he's doing a terrible job at writing codexes and has produced some of the worst stuff ever featured in them. He's miles worse than any person working on any codex in the last ten years and seems to barely be aware of any basic facts of the universe he's writing about. So until he starts improving i'm not going to stop pointing out that he's the worst writer in Games Workshop at this point in time. Hell, probably the only person the company has had worse than him is C.S. Goto, and at least with his stuff people didn't have to buy it to keep playing.

 

And who cares why they're xenophobic, the Imperium's long standing xenophobia is a major aspect of the universe and one of its core elements. It's a key part of the setting and quite frankly he is dumb enough to suddenly retcon it away so he can have Ultramarines carrying gauss weapons.

 

Also space marines are not human.

 

You have to remember the GK dex is from the GK point of view.

 

No it isn't. There have been a lot of codexes and rule books from the perspectives of their forces, the Dark Elves and Dark Eldar come to mind, but they are very clearly made in a way to show this. Nothing in any of Ward's tripe suggests he's writing it from a bias perspective, everything in it suggests he's writing it to be solid indisputable fact no matter how stupid, out of place or insane they might be.

 

It's the same problem as with his Space Marine codex; it's not the Ultramarines saying that they're the greatest force in the known universe and every chapter will gladly follow them and hail Calgar as their liege lord; it's something he's trying to force at people to be fact.

 

One thing we've learnt from A Thousand Sons & Prospero Buns is that armies composed of psychic marines are better than having armies made of normal marines (assuming they dont randomly mutate into spawn) in the manor he did.

 

Yes, and they tend to be fallible and unlike Ward's Khornate Grey Knights they actually take risks with their powers. Unlike Ward's "incorruptible" marines they have to risk daemonic incursions, corruption and falling to Chaos. They are interesting because they are not utterly invincible to the point of self parody with things like "We get a free pass on using sorcery because we have the Emperor's geneseed!"

 

They're powerful, they're small in number, and they're not so outright invincible that their leader pimp slapped Mortarion into submission and carved his predecessor's name into his heart.

 

Look at this from the GK point of view, they know are the best because they have to be best in order for them to their job of protecting the Imperium against its most lethal threat.

 

Yeah, which I have no problem with. They're the best, they have been written well as being the best by certain authors and have been done well without getting to the point of laughable self parody in the past. Just because they're the best does not mean they suddenly get the excuse that they can bench press Bloodthirsters and use daemonhosts casually.

 

Previously their status as the best was an uphill battle, a David vs Goliath fight against Daemons. Now that role seems to have been reversed to the point where Ward seems to be trying to write the daemons as running scared from them.

 

Due to how the Warp is a parady reflection of the Real Space, the warp spaawn could literally pop anywhere (maybe someone should have told Magnus that :teehee:).

 

Not quite. Most daemons have to be summoned or generally appear in locations of heavy corruption like the Eye of Terror, or have to influence unprotected psychers to help bring them back. It's for that reason there's not an endlessly re-spawning stream of Greater Daemons appearing on Holy Terra and finishing off the Emperor.

 

If the GKs have to make themselves X better/ different from other chapters so those other chapters have a planet to recruit from or provide the materials to make its bolters etc, then the GKs will make themselves X better than other chapters.

 

Yes, better but not cartoonishly invulnerable and unbeatable. There's a big difference. There are were limits to what they are capable of.

 

The best analogy I can think of for this situation is how the SAS have made themselves so much better than majority of the other Army/ Marines, so they can literally go in do the job & get out without people knowing. They do this to not only protect UK interests, but also the general Squadies & other Forces members out there in Theatre. If you ever read or hear about the things special forces like the SAS do compared to regular forces, you will understand why they make themselves the remarkable establishments they are.

 

That analogy does not work. At all. Nor does it excuse more than have the things Ward has written about them.

 

If the current Grey Knights were a reflection of the SAS; the special forces would be able to fist fight tanks into submission, take grenades to the chest without flinching, and be sanctioned to commit large scale war crimes without any repercussions of any kind.

 

 

 

Also, does anyone else here see the obvious plot hole involving jumping Titan into the warp for the Grey Knights? If they can do this why not spend the time doing it to Terra so it can avoid Horus' attacking fleet. Or hell, throw the moon into the path of Horus' fleet to cause mass problems and destroy a good chunk of it.

There are a million much smarter things they can do with having worlds perform actions of borderline warp travel.

[Epistolary Exander]

Is there a difference between using psychic powers or sorcery? If so please could you post your definition.

 

From what I am aware a psyker is an individual who can access the warp & use its energy in real space. It is for this reason that they shine brighter in the Warp.

 

A psycher is someone who uses psychic powers which are not fully corrupt, summoning the strength of the chaos gods and are safer, more reliable and more pure versions of sorcery. Sorcery involves blood rituals, directly calling upon the power of the chaos gods, binding daemons to a persons will, sacrificing others to enhance their personal power and following Chaos.

 

There is a very big difference between the two, and for a very long time there has been a clear distinction between them. It's banned within the Imperium and because it's banned you would not, until now, see space marines harbouring daemons and butchering faithful followers of the Emperor in order to defeat Khorne artefacts.

 

No there is no difference between the 2. The Warp & the Chaos Gods are the same thing. Its why the Interex & Eldrad were shocked about the Imperium not knowing about the Chaos Gods. As Ive said previously the Chaos Gods/domains take up significant part of the warp. So any individual who draws on the warp for anything will almost certainly be drawing on energy from the Chaos Gods, weather it is you or a daemon or an IA that focuses the energy. The energy is still energy from the Chaos Gods.

 

The issue of GKs or Malcador using their powers is not an issue during the heresy at that point. It was already said in Legion of One that Rubeo (a librarian) was allowed to use his psychic powers & that is set before the Siege of Terra.

 

And the entirety of the audio before that one focused heavily upon Rubio's conflict of whether he should use his powers or not due to being sanctioned not to call upon them. The fact Malcador was asking the Garro to follow his specific orders, even in the fact of the Emperor, suggests Malcador was doing this behind the Emperor's back and scheming in the same manner we'd seen in previous Horus Heresy instalments.

 

It did not feature the Emperor suddenly going back on a lot of his words and changing "-unless you're Malcador or the Grey Knights" at the end of every decree he had made so they could get away with heresy. Also note that Rubio was the only "Grey Knight" with any psychic power at the time of the heresy, thus your argument does not have a foot to stand on.

 

Lol The Emperor had to spend most of his time during the heresy sat on the Golden Throne to either help keep his webway from collapsing or to seal the Portal & this took all of his attention. The Emperor didn’t have time to micromanage the Imperial war effort, he had no choice but to delegate out jobs out to Malcador & Dorn. Malcador was the Emperors closest advisor, Malcador would only do what the Emperor would have wanted.

 

The relation or Rubeo being the only Grey Knight observed as psyker is because from we know it appears that Malcador took command of the Eisenstein 70 & the 12 marines Garro gathered. We’ve only seen 3 of the 12 collected marines, so we don’t know if the other 12 were psykers or not. On top of this librarians are rare amongst the legions, so it would be normal if Rubeo is the only psyker in the group.

 

If the Emperor had enforced the Nikkea Edict during the heresy, Guilliman would not have allowed librarians to be retained in 2nd founding chapters. Why would Guilliman do something against the Emperor's will that everybody knew about.

 

Probably to help them detect corruption, fight daemons and give the Imperium back the edge it needed to fight something which they did not understand nor fully comprehend. As to why he did it we do not yet know, we don't even know it was Guilliman who suggested they go against the Emperor's decree for the second founding chapters.

 

Further more, Nikea was done because of the fears over the use of sorcery most of all.

 

Yes & those fears were promoted by the direct actions of the Chaos Gods. Primarchs like Russ & Mortarian landed on planets in which there was natural fear to psychic powers. Tzeentch actively allowed the Thousand Sons to use their abilities by manipulating them & Magnus. It was primarily their actions in using energy from the Warp, that other Imperial bodies were afraid of.

 

Even more importantly Russ still allowed the SW Rune Priests to run around after Nikkea, even when he was surrounded by the Emperor's own bodyguards including Valdor who was the Chief Custodian. It could be argued how Rune Priests control nature is a form of sorcery & they get away with it just fine.

 

We only know of one Rune Priest who was about after Nikea using his powers, and the few lines we get from him suggests that he regarded himself as exempt from the decree due to his view that only the Space Wolves had the strength to resist corruption.

 

And no, their acts aren't sorcery because they do not have the Rune Priests yelling "Nurgle! cast your rot upon these blighted enemies of the Imperium!" or invoking the power of the Chaos gods. .

 

If the Emperor was serious about his edict he would have had the attached Custodes prevent the Rune Priests from using their abilities.

 

space marines are not human[/b]

 

There are transhuman, but their minds & those of the Primarchs are all affected by the same flaws/ attributes that we suffer from. It is because of this that the Chaos Gods were able to turn 9 of the Primarchs.

 

Due to how the Warp is a parady reflection of the Real Space, the warp spaawn could literally pop anywhere (maybe someone should have told Magnus that :mellow:).

 

Not quite. Most daemons have to be summoned or generally appear in locations of heavy corruption like the Eye of Terror, or have to influence unprotected psychers to help bring them back. It's for that reason there's not an endlessly re-spawning stream of Greater Daemons appearing on Holy Terra and finishing off the Emperor.

 

You are partially correct, but the Chaos Gods? Warp was trying to flood Terra through the damaged Webway Portal & that is currently being kept sealed by the Emperor.

 

If the GKs have to make themselves X better/ different from other chapters so those other chapters have a planet to recruit from or provide the materials to make its bolters etc, then the GKs will make themselves X better than other chapters.

 

Yes, better but not cartoonishly invulnerable and unbeatable. There's a big difference. There are were limits to what they are capable of.

 

The best analogy I can think of for this situation is how the SAS have made themselves so much better than majority of the other Army/ Marines, so they can literally go in do the job & get out without people knowing. They do this to not only protect UK interests, but also the general Squadies & other Forces members out there in Theatre. If you ever read or hear about the things special forces like the SAS do compared to regular forces, you will understand why they make themselves the remarkable establishments they are.

 

That analogy does not work. At all. Nor does it excuse more than have the things Ward has written about them.

 

If the current Grey Knights were a reflection of the SAS; the special forces would be able to fist fight tanks into submission, take grenades to the chest without flinching, and be sanctioned to commit large scale war crimes without any repercussions of any kind.

 

Actually it does work. Im establishing a parallel between military forces who composed of same entity. The Grey Knights & other chapters are formed from marines, while the SAS & todays forces are based around us humans, so I can show the differences that can exsist between generic forces & elite forces. I know the SAS are not space marines, but SAS have carried out crimes. The SAS were responsible for murdering 3 IRA members in Gibraltar & have not been charged for it. I know the SAS would never commit mass murder of anything, but they committed a crime & have won battles due to their legendary stamina. The unit helped put down a rebellion in Oman by climbing up to a plateau through what the rebels thought was unassailable route & the rebels literally surrendered because of the SAS arrival on the plateau. This is an example of what specialist training & elite people can do, there could be no telling what a Grey Knight can do given the opportunity.

[Octavulg]

I will say it again, just for those who haven't got it.

 

Titan is 40% the size of Earth. 40%. The Rock is a small fragment of a planet, and Phalanx is a big ship. They are very, very, very unlikely to be that big, if only because there would be no need for it. Indeed, since neither is spherical, we can be almost certain they aren't.

 

So those two are not analagous to this situation. Quit it.

[Lord_Caerolion]

No there is no difference between the 2. The Warp & the Chaos Gods are the same thing. Its why the Interex & Eldrad were shocked about the Imperium not knowing about the Chaos Gods. As Ive said previously the Chaos Gods/domains take up significant part of the warp. So any individual who draws on the warp for anything will almost certainly be drawing on energy from the Chaos Gods, weather it is you or a daemon or an IA that focuses the energy. The energy is still energy from the Chaos Gods.

 

Dude, have you not read a single thing I posted? Every single previous source regarding sorcery has stated that there's a difference. There is a difference between manipulating the Warp, and calling directly on the Chaos Powers. Seriously, if you're just going to disregard every piece of evidence against you, in favour of your argument of "but look, I have one sentence backing me up!" then there's no point in discussing this.

All warp energy is technically Chaos energy, yes, but that doesn't mean the Chaos Gods are involved. A basic psyker takes so little energy that the Chaos Gods/daemons usually don't notice (Perils of the Warp is what happens when they do), whereas sorcery is jumping up and down, yelling at them, and then getting them to help you take it. With this said, unless you're going to post some actual sources of more than a throw-away line backing your point, I'm done here, because there won't be any point in discussing with you.

 

If the Emperor was serious about his edict he would have had the attached Custodes prevent the Rune Priests from using their abilities.

 

Wow, and now you're saying the Emperor wasn't "serious" about his Edict? The fact is, the Wolves were hypocrites, and the Emperor can't have gotten any more serious about his Edict, given that he ordered Magnus brought back to Terra to have his Legion disbanded when he broke it. Before you say it, no, the Emperor was going to get Magnus to power the Throne, but then he realised Magnus had used sorcery again, and deemed him a lost cause, and ordered Russ to bring him in. You don't send a Legion on a war footing to hand a Primarch a new deployment.

[Codicier Lucion]

No there is no difference between the 2. The Warp & the Chaos Gods are the same thing. Its why the Interex & Eldrad were shocked about the Imperium not knowing about the Chaos Gods. As Ive said previously the Chaos Gods/domains take up significant part of the warp. So any individual who draws on the warp for anything will almost certainly be drawing on energy from the Chaos Gods, weather it is you or a daemon or an IA that focuses the energy. The energy is still energy from the Chaos Gods.

 

The Interax and Eldrad were shocked at their lack of knowledge because of how easily they could be corrupted and manipulated by Chaos, which is what happened to a good number of them. The Chaos Gods and their domains exist within the warp and make up a good part of it, but anyone using psychic power doesn't instantly call upon their power; they use the power of the warp instead. If they were calling upon the powers of the chaos gods astropaths would probably be summoning daemons into reality every time they tried to send a message and Librarians would become corrupt extremely fast and start welding spikes onto their armour.

 

Hell, I don't even need to explain this, you just need to look at a picture of a sorcerer and librarian to see the differences between the two.

 

This is a sorcerer, he openly looks evil, has had his armour warped by chaos, has icons of chaos plastered all over his armour and apparently relies upon no technology to focus his power, no books to limit which powers he uses and looks daemonic as a result of his corruption by using chaos sorcery:

http://games-workshop.com/pi/w40k/ia/ts_sorcerer.jpg

 

This is a librarian, he uses a psychic hood, has not had his armour warped by chaos, is not summoning daemons and apparently has various wards against corruption placed upon his armour. He does not use sorcrey:

http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k/image...neLibrarian.jpg

 

Lol The Emperor had to spend most of his time during the heresy sat on the Golden Throne to either help keep his webway from collapsing or to seal the Portal & this took all of his attention. The Emperor didn’t have time to micromanage the Imperial war effort, he had no choice but to delegate out jobs out to Malcador & Dorn. Malcador was the Emperors closest advisor, Malcador would only do what the Emperor would have wanted.

 

Yeah, but they still spoke to him and took orders once in a while. And while he didn't exactly micromange the effort I think he would have given Malcador to go on some insane task of getting marines to sware loyalty to him over the Emperor, take his non existant gene seed and perform all other sorts of insane acts listed in that excuse of a codex the Grey Knights use.

 

And again, Malcador asked Garro to sware loyalty to him and specifically him; that sort of suggests he was going behind the Emperor's back.

 

The relation or Rubeo being the only Grey Knight observed as psyker is because from we know it appears that Malcador took command of the Eisenstein 70 & the 12 marines Garro gathered. We’ve only seen 3 of the 12 collected marines, so we don’t know if the other 12 were psykers or not. On top of this librarians are rare amongst the legions, so it would be normal if Rubeo is the only psyker in the group.

 

And yet the point I quoted said all the Grey Knights were psychic at that time. Hence he can't be used as an argument to support the Grey Knights being "sanctioned" to use outright heresy in the name of the Emperor. Also we've seen four of the supposed twelve collected, assuming Ward's fanfiction is remotely accurate, so far and there's a strong suggestion that a Thousand Son will be amongst their number. Ignoring all that these Grey Knights are not psychers and as such cannot be used to support the argument they would be excused of using sorcery.

 

Yes & those fears were promoted by the direct actions of the Chaos Gods. Primarchs like Russ & Mortarian landed on planets in which there was natural fear to psychic powers. Tzeentch actively allowed the Thousand Sons to use their abilities by manipulating them & Magnus. It was primarily their actions in using energy from the Warp, that other Imperial bodies were afraid of.

 

Or more likely the mass corruption and other problems which they had encountered showing uncontrolled psychers, I.E. sorcerers, to be a major threat to others. Mortarion specifically cited instances he'd seen the damage uncontrolled psychers do and had a lot of witch hunters following him. Please also note that it's been a long standing point that psychic powers which are not trained and controlled are liable of daemonic possession and corruption by chaos.

 

Hence Nikea was done because of the fears of sorcery and the impact it had.

 

If the Emperor was serious about his edict he would have had the attached Custodes prevent the Rune Priests from using their abilities.

 

Except the only time we saw him using his powers after Nikea he had no Custodes nearby and never encountered them while he was using them.

 

There are transhuman, but their minds & those of the Primarchs are all affected by the same flaws/ attributes that we suffer from. It is because of this that the Chaos Gods were able to turn 9 of the Primarchs.

 

Or more likely that they did not have their minds guarded against Chaos and were susceptible to corruption due to the fact they did not know about them. And no, they don't have all the problems and flaws we suffer because they're specifically trained and chosen to be beyond that. There's no point around this, they're still corruptible but they're mentally conditioned and trained against petty flaws and to be beyond most of the problems general humans have.

 

If they weren't there would be thousands, perhaps millions, of instances of space marines abusing their powers openly for acts of petty gains and being self centered opportunists.

 

You are partially correct, but the Chaos Gods? Warp was trying to flood Terra through the damaged Webway Portal & that is currently being kept sealed by the Emperor.

 

Yeah, which they needed Magnus to corrupt with sorcery before they could do that. So yes, they only appear in heavily corrupt locations and can't simply turn up where ever they want.

 

And it was more daemons than the warp itself from what we know.

 

Actually it does work. Im establishing a parallel between military forces who composed of same entity. The Grey Knights & other chapters are formed from marines, while the SAS & todays forces are based around us humans, so I can show the differences that can exsist between generic forces & elite forces. I know the SAS are not space marines, but SAS have carried out crimes. The SAS were responsible for murdering 3 IRA members in Gibraltar & have not been charged for it. I know the SAS would never commit mass murder of anything, but they committed a crime & have won battles due to their legendary stamina. The unit helped put down a rebellion in Oman by climbing up to a plateau through what the rebels thought was unassailable route & the rebels literally surrendered because of the SAS arrival on the plateau. This is an example of what specialist training & elite people can do, there could be no telling what a Grey Knight can do given the opportunity.

 

Those are good examples of an elite force being damn good at their jobs and being a cut above everyone else. If they were like the Grey Knights as Ward writes them they would have been performing acts like ordering air strikes upon their position and be able to rely purely upon their equipment to survive it.

 

And no, based upon what is in the Grey Knights codex they would be performing acts on par with going out and slaughtering everyone in sight every time they were dropped into a combat zone if they were an apt comparison with the Grey Knights.

Or more likely slaughtering nuns based upon one instance.

[Walter Payton]

Malcador and the Emperor were tight. He was the Emperor's most trusted advisor, closer even than Horus. Malcador could get away with it most likely.

 

Yeah, but can you imagine how that conversation would have gone down?

 

Malcador: Emperor, I wish to breach several of your decrees, most basic laws and use sorcery to catapult a moon with thousands of psychers and astartes from traitor marines into the warp for a hundred years or so.

Also, I need your geneseed.

Emperor: I don't have geneseed!

Malcador: Well, I need it anyway to make the Grey Knights immune to Chaos. No, don't think about that. It will just make your head hurt.

 

We know very little about their relationship. Also, is sorcery actually the stated method? Although the scale is...somewhat ridiculous, we do have a sort of precedent; remember Vortex of Doom? I suppose this is the same principle, merely magnified and tweaked.

[Iron Lord]

It might be closer to "I need your genes, to modify some existing geneseed to make it corruption-proof."

 

In 2nd ed Codex Imperialis, it described the increased mental toughness of Grey Knights as "due to additional bio-engineering in keeping with their role".

 

The geneseed of the Grey Knights is described in Codex: GK, as "without the flaws of that which had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul".

 

Which may imply he put a bit of his own soul into it as well- a bit like the Soul Binding for astropaths.

[Epistolary Exander]

That doesnt work the Librarian is uncorrupted because he has sworn no pact to chaos, while the Thousand Sons begrudgingly gave themselves to Teentch & they have subsquently become more ornate than they already were before the Heresy.

 

My point is that when you take energy from the warp, you probably taking energy from some part of the chaos gods or the no mans land intween the Gods. The Chaos Gods are literally the Warp for most of it. What I am trying to say there is no difference between the Warp & Chaos = the same thing. I mean Imperial, Chaos, Eldar, other Xenos all use Gellar fields when travelling through the Warp because they know of the corrupting influence of the Warp, because the Warp is Chaos. Its because of this that there is irony of how the Warp is the Galaxy's biggest threat, yet virtually every space bound species needs the Warp to travel & comunicate effectively over interstellar distances.

 

What we are talking about here is transfering energy from the Warp into Real Space to stuff with. Power is the rate of energy use to do something with. You would use the term drawing power form the Warp in reference to howmuch energy someone is capable of drawing from the Warp not to the act of using energy of the Warp to work something.

 

Do you have a copy of the "The Inquisition" reference book form 2007? It clearly states that the Grey Knights are believed to have geneseed from the Emperors own flesh & that they uniquely recruit from the psykers brought to Terra on the Black Ships. So Ward hasnt competely butchtered the fluff as you trying to indicate. There is no point getting angry over how Ward writes his books. GW higher ups probably would have cleared him to write his codexes like he does & A-D-B has already said authors get told off for checking the facts when writing stuff. It appears Ward's style of writing fluff is part of the culture of GW atm. If you do not like it take it do something productive about it & take it up with GW.

 

Yea the SAS have come close to doing that in what is probably their moment of a 9 man squad successfully defended a town against an attacking force of over 200 enemy. Thats pretty impresive no matter how you look at it. As Ive said the SAS arent Space Marines, so how can punch a hole in tank? What Im trying to say is that people can do remarkable things given the opportunity. Based on Thousands Sons could do compared to ordinary marines, the Grey Knights could consievably do everything Ward has said they have done.

 

Like Malcador moving Titan into the Warp, that is a similiar feat to Magnus moving himself & his entire legion to the Planet of Sorcerers during the razing of Prospero & Magnus did that with a thought. These acts are not exactly surprising considering the psychic ability of individuals is directly proportiional to the amount of energy the being could draw on from the Warp to work a given task. We all know the amazing stuff the Emperor could do, Malcador & Magnus were second only to him in their psychic abilities it is probable they both could have done these feats if they wanted to without daemonic pacts. Besides the Warp is timeless, so in the Warp there would be huge amounts of energy given to it from the worhip of Emperor by countless billions of individuals for thousands of years. Malcador could have drawn on some that energy to move Titan.

 

You have to remember the Emperor has spent 10000 absorbing energy from countless psykers who all have the single belief/ thought he is a god. Isnt that the process of how a Warp God is created? Malcador could have used some of the energy given to the Emperor by the Astronicum to aid him moving Titan.

[Codicier Lucion]

We know very little about their relationship. Also, is sorcery actually the stated method? Although the scale is...somewhat ridiculous, we do have a sort of precedent; remember Vortex of Doom? I suppose this is the same principle, merely magnified and tweaked.

 

Well we do know some aspects of their relationship based upon the last meeting between himself and the Emperor in Visions of Heresy, but that book is becoming increasingly unreliable at displaying certain facts about the Heresy in comparison to the series.

 

And yes, sorcery was stated to be the specific method meaning that the Emperor was apparently perfectly fine with his right hand allying himself with the chaos gods and performing acts to use their power if Ward is to be believed.

 

As for the Vortex of Doom theory, it's possible but unlikely. The name sort of implies that it's not a stable rift for warp travel, otherwise you'd be able to do things like have land raiders equipped with Gellar Fields making warp jumps onto the battlefield with the help of the librarian*. Not to mention the thing you've already mentioned with the problem of the sheer size required. The biggest vortexes of doom tend to only be a few meters across, this thing would have to be thousands of miles long. Malcador, even if he were capable of this, would almost certainly kill himself performing this act and almost certainly not have the strength to hold the webway closed when the Emperor went off to face Horus.

 

A more probable power would be the Gate of Infinity, but Malcador himself would have to be on the moon to make it work. The size would also still be a problem and it would also be like making a small warp jump; teleporting from one place and turning up somewhere else in a short space of time. There's also the obvious point that these are psychic powers and not sorcery.

 

---

 

Epistolary Exander, you're going to respond to a post could you please use quotes. Sorry but otherwise this is going to get confusing very quickly.

 

That doesnt work the Librarian is uncorrupted because he has sworn no pact to chaos, while the Thousand Sons begrudgingly gave themselves to Teentch & they have subsquently become more ornate than they already were before the Heresy.

 

And making pacts with Chaos along with directly allying themselves with a chaos god is a core aspect of sorcery. There is still a very big difference between the two even ignoring the mass sacrifices, daemon summoning and other things.

 

My point is that when you take energy from the warp, you probably taking energy from some part of the chaos gods or the no mans land intween the Gods. The Chaos Gods are literally the Warp for most of it. What I am trying to say there is no difference between the Warp & Chaos = the same thing.

 

Yes there is. The Chaos gods are made out of the warp and exist within it but they aren't the warp itself. If they were there would be no chance for new gods to be created or to have any presence in the Warp. Thus the Eldar wouldn't be bothering with their big plan to create a new death god to kill Slaanesh and the astronomican wouldn't work.

 

Psychers draw upon the power of the warp, sorcerers draw upon the power of the chaos gods and their minions. There's a major difference between the two.

 

I mean Imperial, Chaos, Eldar, other Xenos all use Gellar fields when travelling through the Warp because they know of the corrupting influence of the Warp, because the Warp is Chaos. Its because of this that there is irony of how the Warp is the Galaxy's biggest threat, yet virtually every space bound species needs the Warp to travel & comunicate effectively over interstellar distances.

 

For starters the Eldar don't use warp travel. In addition to this they are a good example of the differences between psychic power and sorcery. If Elder Farseers were using sorcery they would probably get their souls devoured by Slannesh every time they attempted to tap into the warp, or have a daemon possessing them and using them as conduits to attack craftworlds en mass.

 

In addition to this the Tau don't know about or fully understand Chaos or understand its corrupting influence and there are probably a few others as well. I don't think the Tyranids or Orks understand it that well either and yet they seem to be able to tap into the warp and travel through it without any problems.

If the Tyranids were using sorcery then they would be making mass sacrifices to the Chaos gods every time they wanted to connect to the hive mind or use their powers.

 

What we are talking about here is transfering energy from the Warp into Real Space to stuff with. Power is the rate of energy use to do something with. You would use the term drawing power form the Warp in reference to howmuch energy someone is capable of drawing from the Warp not to the act of using energy of the Warp to work something.

 

Sorry but what does this have to do with the difference between psychic power and sorcery.

 

Do you have a copy of the "The Inquisition" reference book form 2007? It clearly states that the Grey Knights are believed to have geneseed from the Emperors own flesh & that they uniquely recruit from the psykers brought to Terra on the Black Ships. So Ward hasnt competely butchtered the fluff as you trying to indicate.

 

That's the difference right there. They were believed to have the Emperor's gene seed along with a few other rumours. There was a great deal of mystery behind the chapter, a great deal of interesting hints, ideas and nobility behind the chapter. Of course then Ward comes blundering in and uses the rumour as an excuse to make them his latest abomination of super-powered killing machines and directly butcher more of the fluff.

 

Also, before you try to start defending him and claiming he sticks to the fluff I just want to state the following as a counter argument: Kaldor Draigo.

 

There is no point getting angry over how Ward writes his books. GW higher ups probably would have cleared him to write his codexes like he does & A-D-B has already said authors get told off for checking the facts when writing stuff.

 

I think I have the right to start getting angry when his writing causes some people I know to refuse to use his updated codexes and some of the stuff he pulls out of his rear and puts on to paper makes some so embarrassed to play Ultramarines they jump chapters.

 

He actively shreds any decent ideas behind an army and crams in whatever fanfiction he can think of every time he gets his hands on a codex, and yes it is fanfiction based upon the sheer level of Ultramarines propaganda present within his codexes. Lord only knows what he's going to do to the Black Templars after already voicing his opinion that they're aberrants and degenerates dying out as time goes on.

 

But even if they are getting reprimanded for actually looking up facts about what they're writing, which makes little to no sense anyway, such as all chapters being on the beck and call of the Ultramarines, the Blood Angels holding Guilliman in high respect and a great deal of their success being owed to him, the Blood Angels allying with Necrons and departing on good terms; and a man walking about the warp casually defeating hordes of daemons and demigods.

You have to have to be consciously trying to think what goes against 40K lore to create some of that stuff.

 

It appears Ward's style of writing fluff is part of the culture of GW atm. If you do not like it take it do something productive about it & take it up with GW.

 

Why? They don't care and they've clearly got no intention to fire him. GW doesn't care about the fluff or the universe and is willing to simply overlook any complaints of its customers so long as it keeps getting money. The only way they'll get rid of him or stop him from writing is when enough of the playerbase finally gets tired of Ward's nonsense and stop buying Warhammer models.

 

And if Ward's fluff is a part of the culture of GW at the moment then it's just a clear sign that the game's going downhill and doesn't care about the quality of its writing any more.

 

Yea the SAS have come close to doing that in what is probably their moment of a 9 man squad successfully defended a town against an attacking force of over 200 enemy. Thats pretty impresive no matter how you look at it. As Ive said the SAS arent Space Marines, so how can punch a hole in tank? What Im trying to say is that people can do remarkable things given the opportunity.

 

You don't seem to get what I'm saying. To actually be an apt comparison with the Grey Knights power as they are now, the SAS and real life military soldiers would have to be able to perform acts like taking squadrons of fighter planes on in hand to hand combat and winning.

 

The Grey Knights aren't just good any more, they've turned into horrible fan characters I would expect to be seen written by twelve year olds on sugar rushes.

 

Based on Thousands Sons could do compared to ordinary marines, the Grey Knights could consievably do everything Ward has said they have done.

 

Yes, except where as the Thousand Sons powers came from training, strength, personal skill and intense training, not to mention the fact they were fallible. The Grey Knights simply say "I have the Emperor's gene seed, therefore I can use xenotech without retribution, make pacts with the daemons i'm supposed to be killing, performing acts of chaos worship, am entirely immune to corruption, can get away with forming permanent alliances with aliens, and have anime mecha in our chapter."

 

Again, they're no longer just good, they're horribly overpowered fan characters.

 

Like Malcador moving Titan into the Warp, that is a similiar feat to Magnus moving himself & his entire legion to the Planet of Sorcerers during the razing of Prospero & Magnus did that with a thought. These acts are not exactly surprising considering the psychic ability of individuals is directly proportiional to the amount of energy the being could draw on from the Warp to work a given task. We all know the amazing stuff the Emperor could do, Malcador & Magnus were second only to him in their psychic abilities it is probable they both could have done these feats if they wanted to without daemonic pacts.

 

Except that Magnus actively had Tzeentch himself backing him and working to manipulate himself, his followers and his powers so he could join him; more likely than not the chaos god gave Magnus a considerable power boost. Plus the ritual was suggested to have been prepared many years in advance rather than something done at the last minute as with Malcador's lot. Plus even with his psychic power the biggest acts seen being done by Magnus was psychicly ripping apart titans, something which took nearly all of his power. And ignoring all that, Magnus was a primarch and considerably more powerful the Malcador based upon what the golden throne did to the latter man.

 

Also, name a time when the Emperor threw whole worlds into the warp.

 

Besides the Warp is timeless, so in the Warp there would be huge amounts of energy given to it from the worhip of Emperor by countless billions of individuals for thousands of years. Malcador could have drawn on some that energy to move Titan.

 

That does not even begin to make sense and actually goes into time travel, something which aside from one novel (which had a character do this by accident) 40K has mostly stayed away from. Plus the sheer force of will, strength, power and skill to do that would probably be even beyond Malcador's abilities. Hell, the only reason some ships in 40K end up in the future is because it takes them longer than usual to get through the warp and that's always been by accident.

 

You have to remember the Emperor has spent 10000 absorbing energy from countless psykers who all have the single belief/ thought he is a god. Isnt that the process of how a Warp God is created? Malcador could have used some of the energy given to the Emperor by the Astronicum to aid him moving Titan.

 

This being the same Emperor who it was previously argued and pointed out was stuck on the golden throne and using all of his power to hold back hordes of deaemons and keep a corrupt webway portal shut, yes?

 

And no, there's a bit more to go before he reaches the status of a warp god. Especially if Slaanesh was anything to go by.

[Iron Lord]

And making pacts with Chaos along with directly allying themselves with a chaos god is a core aspect of sorcery. There is still a very big difference between the two even ignoring the mass sacrifices, daemon summoning and other things.

 

Where's it say that? I read Disciples of the Dark Gods, and The Radical's Handbook (both Dark Heresy books) and they don't say that "directly allying themselves with a Chaos god" is a requirement of sorcery. Indeed, they mention that there is a grey area between psyker power and sorcery.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Except it then goes on to explicitly say that sorcery is far more dangerous than psychic power, and that anyone can be a sorceror, but you have to be born a psyker. True, you don't have to have a pact, but whatever way you use sorcery in, it's dangerous for the wielder, far more so than psychic ability.

[Iron Lord]

It does say that in Codex GK as well- that the Grey Knights "wield power that would corrupt a mortal in an instant" (which is why they need the protection given by their geneseed).

 

I don't have a problem with it being more corrupting than normal psychic power- it's the assumption that you have to be "allied with a Chaos God" to use sorcery, that I'm challenging.

 

In Prospero Burns it implies that psychic power is just sorcery "under stringent psyker control"- that malificarum (their term for evil magic) is sorcery without this stringent control.