Dante vs Astorath

[SnorriSnorrison]

I'd say Dante. His hit and run is almost automatic succes

 

 

?

:D

How so?

 

Because his I is so high that he only fails on a 6.

 

But who plays Dante as one model? He's usually with a squad.

 

Surely, the entire squad rolls for this using Dante's I.

 

Ad far as I know, you use the most common initiative for the test - which would be 4 when Dante is attached to a squad.

 

Snorri

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

I'd say Dante. His hit and run is almost automatic succes

 

 

?

:ph34r:

How so?

 

Because his I is so high that he only fails on a 6.

 

But who plays Dante as one model? He's usually with a squad.

 

Surely, the entire squad rolls for this using Dante's I.

 

Ad far as I know, you use the most common initiative for the test - which would be 4 when Dante is attached to a squad.

 

Snorri

 

I've no idea now that you mention it, and I read the rule again. The rule isn't exactly clear on whose I it is that is being used.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Look in the front of the book (Should be like page 20 or something) at Characteristics and how you take a characteristic test. It should say something to the effect you always test at the most common value except when two or more values are tied for most common then you use the highest.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Look in the front of the book (Should be like page 20 or something) at Characteristics and how you take a characteristic test. It should say something to the effect you always test at the most common value except when two or more values are tied for most common then you use the highest.

 

Thank you for that. And might I add "BAH!". Well, that tips the scale in Astro's favour a bit. But I'd still take Dante over him.

[Morollan]

Not necessarily disputing that this should be the correct method but I can't find anything in the rules to say that it actually is. Anyone got any page reference. Nothing under Characteristic Tests (pg 8).

[knife&fork]

Dante has the "Hit and Run" USR, he also confers this rule to any unit he joins. Ergo, if Dante has joined a squad the test will be made at the majority value. Unless the squad has been reduced to a single model you'll most likely test at a lower I.

[Taz]

I have to agree that it heavily depends on the list you're writing. Dante and Astorath have vastly different effects on the way an army plays. Dante affects his whole army through his sanguinary guard thing. This frees up elite slots not just for priests, but for chaplains as well. On the field, if you take an honor guard, not only do you benefit from the free priest bubble from the novitiate. Between Dante's pinpoint DS and the versatility of the kit you could drop either a squad full of melta guns right behind your opponent's favorite vehicle or a bunch of power weapons, priest and a banner right in the middle of your already angry troops. Not to mention he himself is pretty damn good in combat, with I7 if there's a priest/novitiate and 7 attacks on the charge if there's a Banner, plus master crafting. Not to mention the awesome HQ gimp at the beginning of the game. All in all Dante makes for a tighter, more elite list with lots of AoE buffs that plays very tactically and is more reliant synergy and teamwork between units.

 

Astorath, on the other hand, aside from being a bamf chaplain, despite being crowbarred into the fluff by a mad codex writer, removes the limit on our DC and makes everybody angrier than fans whose team lost to their rivals. Everybody rages on a 3 instead of a 1. While having a large DC will make all tactics moot eventually, it does allow a slight amount more versatility in that now you can attack more targets over a broader range than with a single Death Company, or mount them in separate vehicles, and this can add a psychological aspect, too since even seeing Astorath I can't say for sure how many opponents would actually expect more than one DC. On the field he doesn't contribute much outside of his squad. While you could have Astorath in an honor guard his litanies of hate are better served buffing a larger squad like RAS or Death Company that can bring a large number of attacks, doubly so for the DC who get rerolls on not just hits but wounds. Plus any vaguely DC-centric army that has Astorath IMO should pack Lemartes, too. Put each in charge of a Death Company and just watch the carnage. Even if you forgo the DC a 50% chance of red thirsting on every one of your units is going to obviously make your focus getting into combat, which if it wasn't already you might want to consider a different type of list. On a model vs. model basis, if they were in combat with one another Dante has one more wound, is faster and can bring a lot more attacks to the table, plus he likely would have nerfed Astorath with his special death mask while Astorath, while not attacking as frequently, will be far harder to save from because of the forced invuln rerolls. It'd be a close run but my money's on Dante. That said, as I understand it the watchword for DoA lists is "aggression," which is something Asto has in spades.

[JamesI]

Taz, the +1 attack for the chapter banner is for the unit only, not a bubble.

[greatcrusade08]

Surely, the entire squad rolls for this using Dante's I.

like most rolls, its done at 'average' so its done at squad level..

average toughness and average WS is worked out the same way.

[Morollan]

Surely, the entire squad rolls for this using Dante's I.

like most rolls, its done at 'average' so its done at squad level..

average toughness and average WS is worked out the same way.

 

Playing Devil's Advocate here but does anyone actually have a rules reference for this? It's probably RAI but nobody has shown yet that it's RAW.

[marine77]

Surely, the entire squad rolls for this using Dante's I.

like most rolls, its done at 'average' so its done at squad level..

average toughness and average WS is worked out the same way.

 

I thought this too, but when I played a guy, we went back and forth on this. We couldn't find a specific sentence stating that you use average. Can we get a page number or citation to back this up? It seems really important to Dante's rules.

[captain Angel]

Please correct me if i am wrong but,

 

Sweeping advance is done at the highest unmodified initiative on either side, so it would make sense that they would use the highest initiative to to hit and run.

 

or am i mistaken?

[Spassbueroler]

I use Dante's I.

 

Because there is no majority rule for ini tests. Only for sweaping advance, wounding, ...

 

And Dante has the special rule which grants him hit and run. Usually he would lose it when he joins a squad. All special rules marked with an ***Asterix*** are lost when an UC joins a squad. Dante is different here as the speical rule allows him to use hit and run with his squad.

 

Nobody complained so far. But the rule is a bit unclear writen I must say.

[Taz]

Noticed and corrected. Thanks, James.

[knife&fork]

If you check the wording on page 8 and 75 of the rule book in the context of Dantes special rules I think it's pretty clear that the test should be made at majority value. Test not taken like this, leadership for instance, are specially worded to exclude them from normal statchecks.

 

It could also be argued that RAW means that you roll for Dante and his squad separately.

[Spassbueroler]

There is no majority rule on this pages. At least not in the german version.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I use Dante's initiative for H&R. The rules state you use the owning model's stats and this was not FAQd. No one I've played yet has complained.

 

Dante vs. Astorath

 

To me Astorath is pricy for what you get - his low number of attacks is not good. I see Dante as more of a better force multiplier plus he also let's you nerf an enemy HQ. Youre paying lots of points for Astorath - a lot of what he has to offer can be provided by a Chaplain which I always run in my DoA. The best thing Astorath brings is RT at 50% odds for each unit. Sometimes it will buff a large percentage of your army but other times it won't. Everything Dante has to offer is always there when you need it. I think Asorath is really cool but from a purely competitive point of view I think Dante brings more to the table.

 

G ;)

[Morticon]

Please correct me if i am wrong but,

 

Sweeping advance is done at the highest unmodified initiative on either side, so it would make sense that they would use the highest initiative to to hit and run.

 

or am i mistaken?

 

Sweeping advance is done at the majority value, or the highest only if there is no majority.

[exetus]

Guess I'm one of the few that likes to Use Astorath more, but once again, like so many have said, it is based upon the army that you play. I usually take neither until I get to games of 2000pts or higher, preferring to choose more troops and support rather than spending my points on characters. The sole exception is when I make a Death Company list and I always select Astorath to make that happen. It's not a very tactically sound list, but it's fun to play and can hit really hard if you play as aggressively as you should with it. If I really want to go all out, it's Astorath and a DC with a DC Dread on one Stormraven, Lemartes and a DC with either a DC or libby furioso on another Stormraven, and two 6-man tac squads with razorbacks to take objectives. It causes plenty of chaos if you're really aggressive and doesn't fit a Dante mold at all.

 

So it really does depend on army build and what you're planning on doing with it.

[Hannibal.Lictor]

I think the Astro model is just plain righteous. On pure looks I would call in his favor, but when did looks ever win TT? Every time I actually get RT on a squad its my tacs or the one with the SP in it, so I wouldn't bank on that. I personally love the Dante Drop and Pop option, and I love running SG. I have on more than one occasion thought about Astro, but he doesn't bring much more to the table than a reculsiarch and that dude is almost 100 points cheaper, 70 if you include the JP. He suffers some of the same things that Lemie dose, you cant get him without a JP, and if he (Astro) is in a DC squad you loose your HQ to the rage rule. If Astro was like 180 or 170 I would gobble him up and pop him in with Dante's SG with SP squad.

 

Dante's debuff cant be over looked. I have had more people need to read that rule than any other. That rune priest now just needs one wound to take out. Love that. Its a free wound on an IC, that alone is killer.

[Gridlocked]

For DoA?

 

I'd say Dante if I was wanting some Golden Boyz as troops and flavorsome list.

 

Astro if I simply wanted to make my opponents life :lol:.

[Jorre]

In my experience Dante is a much better choice, but you do have to be very selective with what you attack with him as he can be easily killed, although so can Astro.

 

My regular opponents absolutely fear Dante, but they usually laugh when ever I mention astro(mostly because the first game I used him he split from his squad to mop up 2 demonettes and they killed him before he struck!!!! I failed 2 2+ armour saves and 1 4+ invul save from a rend was hopeless rolling considering he only got wounded 3 times)

 

Dante is far more reliable in my opinion with master crafted weapon and more attacks, the extra wound and sweet gold armour you can't go wrong

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

I might add, that since the question if for DoA in particular, it's clearly Dante for me. Bias aside and all, but Astro doesn't do anything for DoA, except adding the option to take even more horribly overpriced D.C.

[JamesI]

I might add, that since the question if for DoA in particular, it's clearly Dante for me. Bias aside and all, but Astro doesn't do anything for DoA, except adding the option to take even more horribly overpriced D.C.

Red Thirst increase is the main reason to take Astorath, and he's probably the best combat IC available to DoA. That strength 6 and reroll invuls is a lot better than people give credit to.

 

When I try to make a list with Dante, I have to cut squads to add more priests. With Astorath, I have a priest and an HG and that's enough. My Vanguard have a decent chance of Furious Charge without hoping that a priest or the HG show up the same turn and they stay near enough each other when they scatter.

 

I see Dante as nice, but outside of pure SG, all he does is Hit and Run and makes one squad not scatter. I understand how good those things are, but the Red Thirst increase and Astorath's better weapon really make him appear superior.

 

Dante is far more reliable in my opinion with master crafted weapon and more attacks, the extra wound and sweet gold armour you can't go wrong

 

1 reroll to hit a turn versus the entire squad getting to reroll hits on the charge and strength 4 with 5 attacks or strength 6 with 3 attacks? Astorath seems more reliable to me, he can hurt far more enemies, instant death on T3 enemies, and gets through their invul saves far easier than Dante does.

 

Also, some one said that Astorath just duplicates a chaplain, so better to take Dante and a chaplain. That's 130 points more than Astorath! I'd rather consolidate them into one character and have more points for squads.

[captain Angel]

I personally like both. Astorath has some more power in taking out big enemies, while Dante can cleave through the most heavily armored enemies in droves, like plague marines. Dante gives you scoring san gaurd, while astorath gives us more death company. It just depends on your playing style. You really must chose your playing style.

 

By the way after three different battles against the two, Dante won all three times even with astorath charging all three times, because of Dante's death mask. Probably one of the best things ever.