Dante vs Astorath

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Fair point about the Red Thirst James, but I fail to see how Astro makes you need less priests. Unless you really want many a' D.C, there should be no difference. And if you do, scoring becomes something of a problem.

 

In all fairness, they're both still Marine C.C characters without E.W. In the end they'll fold like butter to anything that is actually meant for C.C, so I'm guessing personal taste really is a huge part of it. Why else would we be playing DoA?

[Isryion]

Fair point about the Red Thirst James, but I fail to see how Astro makes you need less priests. Unless you really want many a' D.C, there should be no difference. And if you do, scoring becomes something of a problem.

 

In all fairness, they're both still Marine C.C characters without E.W. In the end they'll fold like butter to anything that is actually meant for C.C, so I'm guessing personal taste really is a huge part of it. Why else would we be playing DoA?

 

There seem to be plenty of people that have had success with DOA, and there are ways to be effective with it and not.

 

The reason you take fewer priests is that the red thirst roll makes the priests a bit redundant. They're not worth it just to give a unit FNP. So, in my Astrorath lists I tend to do what JamesI does, dropping my other priest or two (getting me another 100-150 points or more) and simply running with the HG, if any at all.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Fair point about the Red Thirst James, but I fail to see how Astro makes you need less priests. Unless you really want many a' D.C, there should be no difference. And if you do, scoring becomes something of a problem.

 

In all fairness, they're both still Marine C.C characters without E.W. In the end they'll fold like butter to anything that is actually meant for C.C, so I'm guessing personal taste really is a huge part of it. Why else would we be playing DoA?

 

There seem to be plenty of people that have had success with DOA, and there are ways to be effective with it and not.

 

The reason you take fewer priests is that the red thirst roll makes the priests a bit redundant. They're not worth it just to give a unit FNP. So, in my Astrorath lists I tend to do what JamesI does, dropping my other priest or two (getting me another 100-150 points or more) and simply running with the HG, if any at all.

 

I'm not saying it is fail to run DoA, they're working quite good for me as well. Some matchups are however horrible for it. And I beg to differ, I'd pay the points for just feel no pain too. See Paladin apotechary for referernce and how much that costs.

[JamesI]

Fair point about the Red Thirst James, but I fail to see how Astro makes you need less priests. Unless you really want many a' D.C, there should be no difference. And if you do, scoring becomes something of a problem.

 

In all fairness, they're both still Marine C.C characters without E.W. In the end they'll fold like butter to anything that is actually meant for C.C, so I'm guessing personal taste really is a huge part of it. Why else would we be playing DoA?

Maybe we look at things differently. When I make a Dante 1850-2k list, I want at least 3 priests (including the HG).

 

I've been very successful at 1850-2k with just 1 priest in an Astorath list, though I currently have a second because I've added a shooty HG.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I usually run two Priests at 2k - one might or might not be a Novitiate. FNP is one of the key components that makes BA DoA so effective... you are playing a small elite army with roughly 1.5 times the actual models you put on the table. You never think about it but it is always right there saving your bacon.

 

G :P

[knife&fork]

I usually run two Priests at 2k - one might or might not be a Novitiate. FNP is one of the key components that makes BA DoA so effective... you are playing a small elite army with roughly 1.5 times the actual models you put on the table. You never think about it but it is always right there saving your bacon.

 

G :D

 

I'll have to agree here. FNP is the big thing, FC is icing on the cake.

[Brother Nathan]

that depends on what your fighting. ie against the army i usually fight i dont usually get fnp as my opponents weapons tend to be str 8 or rending or powerfists... ive only ever ran a single priest and with his bubble im able to get the fnp to where it will make a difference. furious charge however is more important for me as it means i atack before my opponents in cc so theres fewer to strike back especially when i hit harder.... the few times ive had redthirst its allowed me alot more flexibility with the units that have it as you dont fear them loosing their priest(hello vindicare assisin)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

FNP is great versus small arms fire and will keep your assault Marines in the thick of it versus enemy units such as Berzerkers and Grey Hunters. :tu:

 

To be honest I think the Sanguinor is our best choice in regards to the ultimate close combat prowess for a single character plus his buffs to your army are also very helpful as well. I know he is not the subject of discussion in this topic but I felt it should be mentioned. Astorath is also very potent with S6 and forcing enemies to reroll their invulnerable saves but he is subject to instant death just as is Dante. I have used Astorath when I was testing my DoA list but Dante works better for me. It really just depends upon your own play style what will work best for you. Definitely in my opinion Astrorath looks the most dead sexy. :)

 

G :P

[JamesI]

FNP is great versus small arms fire and will keep your assault Marines in the thick of it versus enemy units such as Berzerkers and Grey Hunters. :P

 

To be honest I think the Sanguinor is our best choice in regards to the ultimate close combat prowess for a single character plus his buffs to your army are also very helpful as well. I know he is not the subject of discussion in this topic but I felt it should be mentioned. Astorath is also very potent with S6 and forcing enemies to reroll their invulnerable saves but he is subject to instant death just as is Dante. I have used Astorath when I was testing my DoA list but Dante works better for me. It really just depends upon your own play style what will work best for you. Definitely in my opinion Astrorath looks the most dead sexy. ;)

 

G B)

Yeah, I intentionally did not include the Sanguinor as I was limiting the discussion to ICs. Sanguinor isn't directly comparable to Astorath and Dante, but he clearly has his place in DoA.

I think Dante and Sanguinor would be an interesting combo (a Sanguinary Guard list with a nasty Vanguard or 2 where the Sanguinor's blessing would be guarnteed to the Vanguard sergeant would be nice). But I don't like to use Sanguinor as my main HQ for fluff reasons.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I run the Sanguinor with or either Dante or an Epistolary (Unleash Rage & Sanguine Sword) as my two HQ for my DoA army. Dante is for the all jump infantry list while the Librarian is for a hybrid DoA list that includes a Stormraven and Furioso. My most competitive list is the hybrid.

 

I did a review of Dante versus Astrorath once:

 

* Dante - advantages:

- Precise deepstrike

- Hit & Run, deathmask

- Makes Sanguinary Guard count as troops

- Nerfs one enemy IC HQ

- I6 : WS6 : 4W : 5A

 

* Dante - disadvantages:

- Not Eternal Warrior

- Not Fearless

 

 

* Astorath - advantages:

- Litanies of Hate

- Fearless

- Red Thirst Generation

- Unlocks more Death Company Marines & Death Company dreadnaughts

- S6 force sword that forces opponents to reroll invulnerables

 

* Astorath - disadvantages:

- Not Eternal Warrior

- Less attacks, lower number of wounds, lower initiative

 

G :P

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

that depends on what your fighting. ie against the army i usually fight i dont usually get fnp as my opponents weapons tend to be str 8 or rending or powerfists... ive only ever ran a single priest and with his bubble im able to get the fnp to where it will make a difference. furious charge however is more important for me as it means i atack before my opponents in cc so theres fewer to strike back especially when i hit harder.... the few times ive had redthirst its allowed me alot more flexibility with the units that have it as you dont fear them loosing their priest(hello vindicare assisin)

 

Well, surely, this is only ever true if your opponent is using a deathwing list with all TH/SS termies and cyclones. Otherwise, FNP is great against any and all armies. Except GK in melee.

[knife&fork]

just some final words regarding Dantes hit n run. Characteristics test have been FAQed to be taken at majority value unless specifically stated otherwise.

+

main rulebook

p 75

"The unit using the hit & run ability must take an Initiative test."

 

p 48

"An independent character may not join or leave a unit during the shooting and assault phases...."

[Morollan]

just some final words regarding Dantes hit n run. Characteristics test have been FAQed to be taken at majority value unless specifically stated otherwise.

+

main rulebook

p 75

"The unit using the hit & run ability must take an Initiative test."

 

p 48

"An independent character may not join or leave a unit during the shooting and assault phases...."

 

Where is the FAQ please? The rules you quoted don't really help as other rules specify whether the majority value or highest value is used for the test. This one doesn't say either way.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yeah I don't see anything there to support your interpretation k&f. You might want to go back and read Dante's rules again. :blush:

 

G :)

[JamesI]

IF the unit it making a hit and run test, you would use the units initiative, not the 6 of Dante. I can't see any justification in Dante's rules to allow a squad to use his initiative for H+R. We don't use his initiative for sweeping advance, why would we use it for hit and run?

 

that depends on what your fighting. ie against the army i usually fight i dont usually get fnp as my opponents weapons tend to be str 8 or rending or powerfists... ive only ever ran a single priest and with his bubble im able to get the fnp to where it will make a difference. furious charge however is more important for me as it means i atack before my opponents in cc so theres fewer to strike back especially when i hit harder.... the few times ive had redthirst its allowed me alot more flexibility with the units that have it as you dont fear them loosing their priest(hello vindicare assisin)

 

Well, surely, this is only ever true if your opponent is using a deathwing list with all TH/SS termies and cyclones. Otherwise, FNP is great against any and all armies. Except GK in melee.

So much of the Dark Eldar stuff is AP2 and units with all power weapons.

[Morollan]

IF the unit it making a hit and run test, you would use the units initiative, not the 6 of Dante. I can't see any justification in Dante's rules to allow a squad to use his initiative for H+R. We don't use his initiative for sweeping advance, why would we use it for hit and run?

 

So, what if it required a Ld test instead of I?

 

I'm afraid it's another example of GW writing unclear rules. If you're going to allow a character to confer this rule onto a squad when it would normally be lost (as the rule is marked with * in the rulebook) then it should be very clearly stated what I value is to be used.

[JamesI]

IF the unit it making a hit and run test, you would use the units initiative, not the 6 of Dante. I can't see any justification in Dante's rules to allow a squad to use his initiative for H+R. We don't use his initiative for sweeping advance, why would we use it for hit and run?

 

So, what if it required a Ld test instead of I?

 

I'm afraid it's another example of GW writing unclear rules. If you're going to allow a character to confer this rule onto a squad when it would normally be lost (as the rule is marked with * in the rulebook) then it should be very clearly stated what I value is to be used.

leadership uses the highest in the squad. Other abilities have always gone by the majority value (highest in the case of a tie).

 

Knowing GW they didn't feel it was necessary to say to use the squads initiative, just assuming we would all know to do it that way.

[SnorriSnorrison]

So, what if it required a Ld test instead of I?

 

I'm afraid it's another example of GW writing unclear rules. If you're going to allow a character to confer this rule onto a squad when it would normally be lost (as the rule is marked with * in the rulebook) then it should be very clearly stated what I value is to be used.

 

While a LD test is always taken at the highest value within the unit, other characteristic tests are taken at the most common value.

 

knife&fork quoted the part from the main rulebook that explains why a unit does not benefit from Dante's initiative:

The unit using the hit & run ability must take an Initiative test.

 

While Dante is part of the unit and wants to 'run' away with his bros, he does not confer his initiative to them. It is just like models with different movements, for example a squad of Tacticals and a SP with JP. The Priest must not move more than 6" because that is the maximum range of the foot-slogging marines.

 

In the same way, Dante cannot use his initiative for the test because then he would be rockin' off alone, and as the second quote provided by knife&fork explains, that is not possible as that kind of movement could only be done in the movement phase, not in shooting or assault phase.

 

I've always seen this as very simple, actually. That came up a few time when Broodlords and genestealers were targeted in shooting, and you could wound the broodlord on 4's because the majority value for the 'stealers' toughness was 4.

 

 

I hope this has become clearer. :)

 

 

Snorri

[Brother Nathan]

that depends on what your fighting. ie against the army i usually fight i dont usually get fnp as my opponents weapons tend to be str 8 or rending or powerfists... ive only ever ran a single priest and with his bubble im able to get the fnp to where it will make a difference. furious charge however is more important for me as it means i atack before my opponents in cc so theres fewer to strike back especially when i hit harder.... the few times ive had redthirst its allowed me alot more flexibility with the units that have it as you dont fear them loosing their priest(hello vindicare assisin)

 

Well, surely, this is only ever true if your opponent is using a deathwing list with all TH/SS termies and cyclones. Otherwise, FNP is great against any and all armies. Except GK in melee.

dont get me wrong fnp is good, but when an army knows they are facing it they bring weapons that deny it more. i loose more marines to heavyweapons than to standard shooting. ie how many armys you face that dont where they can take melta, plasma, power weapons, powerfists, rending, monsterous creatures, str 8+ guns, etc. thats how blood angels die, just like everything else with 3+ armour save. not many guard armys rely on lots of lascannon rounds to down my marines.

in fact my regular sob opponent runs 3 excorcists, sisters units with melta guns and an eviscivator leader, and a huge choppy unit with lots of eviscivators(that just wont die! stupid inv power!) infact because of this ive had to swap my chaplin for a libarian for the coversave power to try and save some of the units long enough to do do the nessiary damage. fnp is good but not unadvoidable. just look at the other armys with it, dosent quite make them unstopable...

[knife&fork]

Where is the FAQ please? The rules you quoted don't really help as other rules specify whether the majority value or highest value is used for the test. This one doesn't say either way.

 

Main rulebook FAQ

 

"

Q: When there are multiple different characteristic values

or armour values in a single unit how do you work out

what the majority is? (var)

A: The majority will be the most common value, i.e. the

one that the largest number of models have. When two or

more values are equally as common, use the highest. ...."

 

Yeah I don't see anything there to support your interpretation k&f. You might want to go back and read Dante's rules again. :)

 

Codex BA

p 53

"Surgical strike: Commander Dante (and any unit he has joined) have the Hit and Run universal special rule"

 

Nothing there about making the test with Dantes initiative. Since ICs are effectively locked in a unit (RB p 48) outside of the movement phase can you really argue that he and his squad would not be considered a unit in this case? And then it's clearly stated on p 75 that H&R is taken on a unit, not model. And how multiple different characteristic values are handled has been clarified in the FAQ.

 

While there hasn't been a FAQ that outright says how you handle Dantes special rule, the case for using the majority value is strong. The argument for using Dantes on the other hand is mostly about negative proof.

[captain Angel]

OK thanks. That clears that up. :)

[Morollan]

Where is the FAQ please? The rules you quoted don't really help as other rules specify whether the majority value or highest value is used for the test. This one doesn't say either way.

 

Main rulebook FAQ

 

"

Q: When there are multiple different characteristic values

or armour values in a single unit how do you work out

what the majority is? (var)

A: The majority will be the most common value, i.e. the

one that the largest number of models have. When two or

more values are equally as common, use the highest. ...."

 

Yeah I don't see anything there to support your interpretation k&f. You might want to go back and read Dante's rules again. :D

 

Codex BA

p 53

"Surgical strike: Commander Dante (and any unit he has joined) have the Hit and Run universal special rule"

 

Nothing there about making the test with Dantes initiative. Since ICs are effectively locked in a unit (RB p 48) outside of the movement phase can you really argue that he and his squad would not be considered a unit in this case? And then it's clearly stated on p 75 that H&R is taken on a unit, not model. And how multiple different characteristic values are handled has been clarified in the FAQ.

 

While there hasn't been a FAQ that outright says how you handle Dantes special rule, the case for using the majority value is strong. The argument for using Dantes on the other hand is mostly about negative proof.

 

Sorry, but I'm still not buying it. The FAQ merely tells you how to work out what a majority is (how the hell is that even a FAQ anyway?), not whether you use a majority for this particular test. The only examples I can find immediately for using this value are for Toughness when rolling to wound and Ws when rolling to hit and there is a specific, headed section in the rulebook telling you to do so.

 

To be honest, I tend to agree that it should be the I of the unit, although I do think there's an argument to say that Dante is the one conferring the ability so his I could be used. But I think it's misleading to cobble together a series of assumptions and pass it off as RAW.

[Brother Nathan]

does it not say unless stated use majority for these sortof tests? id still go wo with the unit on this one too....

[shatter]

Where is the FAQ please? The rules you quoted don't really help as other rules specify whether the majority value or highest value is used for the test. This one doesn't say either way.

 

Main rulebook FAQ

 

"

Q: When there are multiple different characteristic values

or armour values in a single unit how do you work out

what the majority is? (var)

A: The majority will be the most common value, i.e. the

one that the largest number of models have. When two or

more values are equally as common, use the highest. ...."

 

Yeah I don't see anything there to support your interpretation k&f. You might want to go back and read Dante's rules again. :)

 

Codex BA

p 53

"Surgical strike: Commander Dante (and any unit he has joined) have the Hit and Run universal special rule"

 

Nothing there about making the test with Dantes initiative. Since ICs are effectively locked in a unit (RB p 48) outside of the movement phase can you really argue that he and his squad would not be considered a unit in this case? And then it's clearly stated on p 75 that H&R is taken on a unit, not model. And how multiple different characteristic values are handled has been clarified in the FAQ.

 

While there hasn't been a FAQ that outright says how you handle Dantes special rule, the case for using the majority value is strong. The argument for using Dantes on the other hand is mostly about negative proof.

 

Sorry, but I'm still not buying it. The FAQ merely tells you how to work out what a majority is (how the hell is that even a FAQ anyway?), not whether you use a majority for this particular test. The only examples I can find immediately for using this value are for Toughness when rolling to wound and Ws when rolling to hit and there is a specific, headed section in the rulebook telling you to do so.

 

To be honest, I tend to agree that it should be the I of the unit, although I do think there's an argument to say that Dante is the one conferring the ability so his I could be used. But I think it's misleading to cobble together a series of assumptions and pass it off as RAW.

 

Uhm, I think K&F got it quite correct.

The FAQ speaks of characteristic checks in a unit, H&R calls for an initiative check(/roll-off). Initiative is a characteristic.

Surgical Strike lumps him and attached unit together as a single entity: A unit.

A unit with mixed characteristic values is covered by majority value as stated.

 

By the by. This has come up several times over th elast 12 months and no one has seriously tried to argue against 'majority value' for Dante's H&R.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Still don't buy this argument. It's just clumping some rules together in a mish mash sort of way.

 

G :P