knife&fork Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 Still don't buy this argument. It's just clumping some rules together in a mish mash sort of way. G :P Let's reverse it, prove (using the rules) that we should use Dantes I. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230471-dante-vs-astorath/page/4/#findComment-2774118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 page 6 of the BRB shows that Ld tests are different than all other characteristics tests, and that if you have differing values within a unit, you use the highest only pg 40 BRB sweeping advances both the unit falling back and the winning unit roll a D6 and add thier initiative value to the result. always count the initiative value from the models profile without any modifiers. In a unit with mixed initiative characteristics, count the majority value, or the highest if there is no majority Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230471-dante-vs-astorath/page/4/#findComment-2774136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volcatus Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 I'm wondering how folks are arriving at the conclusion that all characteristic tests are done at majority value. As it stands, the rulebook provides only two specific instances: Multiple Toughness Values (pg. 19,38) and Units with different WS (pg.37). Neither of these imply, or dictate, that all characteristic tests are taken at majority value. If anything, we are provided with multiple instances to the contrary. Characteristic tests that don't use majority rule: -Armour Saves -Weapon Skill while attacking in close combat -Ballistic Skill -Strength -Attacks -Initiative in close combat Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230471-dante-vs-astorath/page/4/#findComment-2774146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 I'm wondering how folks are arriving at the conclusion that all characteristic tests are done at majority value. As it stands, the rulebook provides only two specific instances: Multiple Toughness Values (pg. 19,38) and Units with different WS (pg.37). Neither of these imply, or dictate, that all characteristic tests are taken at majority value. If anything, we are provided with multiple instances to the contrary. Characteristic tests that don't use majority rule: -Armour Saves -Weapon Skill while attacking in close combat -Ballistic Skill -Strength -Attacks -Initiative in close combat none of these 'instances' are applicable to units.. in each case the characteristic test is specific to individual models.. armour saves are done per model, with the exception that all like armed miodels are rolled together. close combat is done per model, although again we generally roll all like models together for alacrity.. so using WS, number of attacks, strength and inititaive arent applicable examples.. however you use the majority of the enemy units Ws to determine what value you hit on.. this IS an example of majority characterisitc. Ballsitic skill is the same, you shoot per model, some models are armed differently, others use a better BS value.. howeevr determining if you wound rolls on majority toughness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230471-dante-vs-astorath/page/4/#findComment-2774165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 None of these are characteristic tests either. They are just situations in which you use the abilities. Rolling to hit are both quite different. You'll notice that all these rolls also assume you want to roll high. Where as with all characteristic tests rolling low is your goal. Leadership tests are the next closest thing and they have a very specific set of rules applicable to them. (Use the highest) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230471-dante-vs-astorath/page/4/#findComment-2774235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 None of these are characteristic tests either. They are just situations in which you use the abilities. Rolling to hit are both quite different. You'll notice that all these rolls also assume you want to roll high. Where as with all characteristic tests rolling low is your goal. Leadership tests are the next closest thing and they have a very specific set of rules applicable to them. (Use the highest) thats all true, but i think weve strayed from the main point.. which is that the rulebook specifically states you would use the squads initiative and not dantes, unless the squad only had one man remaining at which point you use dantes initiative. quoted again for clarity page 40 BRB sweeping advances both the unit falling back and the winning unit roll a D6 and add thier initiative value to the result. always count the initiative value from the models profile without any modifiers. In a unit with mixed initiative characteristics, count the majority value, or the highest if there is no majority Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230471-dante-vs-astorath/page/4/#findComment-2774296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted May 28, 2011 Author Share Posted May 28, 2011 Ok, guys. The issue of Dante's Initiative or squad initiative is not really relevant to the issue of Dante/Astorath in DoA (though it does have some bearing as Dante is better if he can us I6 rather than I4 for H+R). Lets take the rules debate to the OR. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230471-dante-vs-astorath/page/4/#findComment-2774443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 Agreed. G :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230471-dante-vs-astorath/page/4/#findComment-2774537 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Dante. While Astorath's SotP rule can indeed mean FC for you assault units, the roll for RT is still random. Still got a 50% chance to fail. So you'll still want priests to ensure your assault units will get FC. So why bother improving your RT rolls in the first place? Plus, FnP is just THAT good (unless your opponent tailors to your list all the time, which is more of a "need to find new opponent" problem then a FnP problem). DC squads? Oh right, JP DC are seriously overcosted. Combat ability? Well, obviously Asto has the leg up there, not just because of his axe, but Litanies of Blood too. Dante is no slouch though, and Hit and Run is a great boon to an army that works on FC. Plus, Dante's abilities ALL benefit a DoA army. Ergo, he is the superior choice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230471-dante-vs-astorath/page/4/#findComment-2775116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt. Blood Donator Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Dante. While Astorath's SotP rule can indeed mean FC for you assault units, the roll for RT is still random. Still got a 50% chance to fail. So you'll still want priests to ensure your assault units will get FC. So why bother improving your RT rolls in the first place? Plus, FnP is just THAT good (unless your opponent tailors to your list all the time, which is more of a "need to find new opponent" problem then a FnP problem). DC squads? Oh right, JP DC are seriously overcosted. Combat ability? Well, obviously Asto has the leg up there, not just because of his axe, but Litanies of Blood too. Dante is no slouch though, and Hit and Run is a great boon to an army that works on FC. Plus, Dante's abilities ALL benefit a DoA army. Ergo, he is the superior choice. And with F.C he gets to strike before GK's with halberds. Might be something about that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230471-dante-vs-astorath/page/4/#findComment-2775173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted May 31, 2011 Author Share Posted May 31, 2011 Having now played 2 completely jump packs DoA games with Astorath as my Hq, I'm thinking to myself that I'd rather have Dante for those games. Though overall, I think I'd rather just play my old style with devs or hybrid with some mech/jumpy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230471-dante-vs-astorath/page/4/#findComment-2777078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Chris Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Dante, of course. Dante is all about less randomisation, and much more control, of where he lands and who he attacks. this seems the essecence of DOA. Astorath adds many more random or uncontrollable elemets, with red thirst and more than one DC unit. That might be fun, but I would rather have more control. Astorath's main plus points on this thread seem to be he has a nice new model on modern style. You could, for all that, just paint him gold and use him as Dante. Alternatively, has anyone put his jump-pack and axe on the Dante model? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230471-dante-vs-astorath/page/4/#findComment-2777246 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted May 31, 2011 Author Share Posted May 31, 2011 Astorath's main plus points on this thread seem to be he has a nice new model on modern style. You could, for all that, just paint him gold and use him as Dante. Alternatively, has anyone put his jump-pack and axe on the Dante model? I put Astoraht's jump pack on Dante. Still felt Dante looked wrong (I just don't care for the model) so I built my own Dante out of SG and DC parts and Astorath's jump pack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230471-dante-vs-astorath/page/4/#findComment-2777263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Dante, of course. Dante is all about less randomisation, and much more control, of where he lands and who he attacks. this seems the essecence of DOA. Astorath adds many more random or uncontrollable elemets, with red thirst and more than one DC unit. That might be fun, but I would rather have more control. Astorath's main plus points on this thread seem to be he has a nice new model on modern style. You could, for all that, just paint him gold and use him as Dante. Alternatively, has anyone put his jump-pack and axe on the Dante model? Not his axe but I did nick his JP. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230471-dante-vs-astorath/page/4/#findComment-2777285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rindaris Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 thing is though if this was a fluff question astro would never see play... but i must say i do prefer astros model...(well jumppack and axe anyway) I have to agree with this. I won a local 40k league and one of my prizes was Astrorath. I ended up cutting one arm short and replaced it with an infernus pistol and removed the axehead and replaced it with the 2-handed axehead from the Sang Guard kit to have it be my Dante. If it wasn't for my prolonged hospital stay I'd have pics up... hopefully will soon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230471-dante-vs-astorath/page/4/#findComment-2778673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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