Maybe the Two Legions Weren't That Bad?

[Omega Striker]

Ohhh...I like that one. Perhaps one of the Primarchs was a Ferrus or Perturarbo sort of character with more affinity for software than hardware. A few poor decisions and suddenly you've got a legion with sentient Power Armor and tanks and some crazy techno-Matrix demigod Primarch in need of purging. Of course in that scenario, Russ, as the exterminator, would be Keanu Reeves. :) :D

 

Think I'm gonna have to work on that. Should be fun to see folks in the Liber with 'sploding heads for using a Lost Primarch as a plot device :P

 

 

This actually relates to my DIY chapter already.....maybe I could break rules and say they are actually descendants of this techno-mage chapter....

 

Want help writing the IA? :P

[Culebras]

One theory I have been working on is the idea of an internal civil war happening inside the Legion. I was thinking that perhaps some sort of conflict erupted between the Primarch and members of his own legion that resulted in its decimation. The survivors got quietly retired and The emperor covered everything up.

 

I personally that Chaos and being seduced by the warp has been overused as a plot device. I like the AI idea, but I also think that the legions fall should be both tragic and traumatic. I think it should be like the burning of prospero; a terrible tragedy brought on by ignorance and fear and the misplaced desire to do what seemed like the right thing at the time.

[Zincite]

A few poor decisions and suddenly you've got a legion with sentient Power Armor and tanks and some crazy techno-Matrix demigod Primarch in need of purging.

Did anyone else get a vision of a Space Marine arguing with his power armour about what way he should attack the heretics?

[Delivern]

my 2 cents...

 

1 primarch either..was in cohoots with an alien race/ai and refused to give up his allegiance and attack them, or he was given a very specific direct order and refused. Hence space wolves taking care of him.

 

the other primarch was exposed to the warp in his cracked capsule or was experimented on by the emperor (to make an effective warp resistant marine) and the result was the legion of the damned. We all know that they supposedly showed up during the cursed founding....but maybe thats when they reappeared. Didnt Dorn ask Malcdor about the other legion, and the reply was that they were lost???

 

It seems that there are quite a few buried truths in the imperium...Blood Ravens, Alpha Legion, the Emperor, etc....

 

 

Anywho...this was my first post, lots of great ideas and information on these boards. Thanks..

[Perrin]

I think that the Primarchs of these Legions were killed, then covered up to protect morale.

This is based pretty much on the rumour/gossip in TFH.

If what they say is true and

the remainder of the lost legions were absorbed into the Ultras,

then the Primarch must have died, if they had commited some horrible crime then their marines would have stood with them regardless, look at Kurze and the Night Lords, and possibly Magnus and the TS. Not really the best examples and im too tired to think of anyway that those examples make much sense :huh:

But yeh, i think that the lost Primarchs were killed and the remnants of the Legions absorbed by the Ultras.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

An idea came to me recently.

 

What if a Primarch believed in democracy or something like that? That his father's way of ruling was flawed?

 

He tells this to his brothers and to the Emperor, and the Emperor basicly tells him "If you think democracy is going to work, go take your legion out of Imperial space and make it work"

 

This would align with a lot of things - being reunited with their legions taking part in the Great Crusade, and Dorn and Malcador's conversation - while not really interfering with anything we've been told, unless I missed something?

[SanguineSon]

the other primarch was exposed to the warp in his cracked capsule or was experimented on by the emperor (to make an effective warp resistant marine) and the result was the legion of the damned.

 

 

Unless it's been stated otherwise in IA9 or some other source, the Legion of the Damned are believed to be the remnants of the Fire Hawks who were declared lost in the warp around M 963. As with anything in the 40k universe it is subject to much speculation but I doubt very much the the Legion of the Damned are at all related to the missing/deleted legions.

[Jordan-096]

Did anyone ever consider the Red Scorpions. They are fanatical about their purity, and their geneseed has no markers that would trace back to the original legions. During the Great Crusade they may have had some kind of incident like the one that befell the Thousand Sons at their creation. However, the Thousand Sons kept theirs secret, and were not expunged.

 

Also, in another topic someone mentioned that the suvivors of the lost legions were absorbed into the Ultramarines.

[sponsra]

Ok, off-universe then, do you think GW has even decided what happened to them? Like, the IP-people know the full story but have agreed on not telling the fans in books or codieces, or do you think that they never really came up with a story about what happened and just decided it was bad and let´s keep it a mystery for the sake of the big 40k storyline?

[Legatus]

Also, in another topic someone mentioned that the suvivors of the lost legions were absorbed into the Ultramarines.

Well, they weren't.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Or instead of embracing the chaos/ loyalist destruction side of things they did something else (as to add balance)

 

Joined with a xeno life force, gained new technology (like the Alterate Heresy Ultramarines) and left the galaxy to start mankind again somewhere else taking enlighted sentient beigns away with them thusly escaping the hatered and intolerance of their own and other races.

 

Or maybe one could secretly of discoverd the existance of Malal (a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG shot but would be very cool) hence worships him.

 

Or maybe one resigned, left his legion to the Lion and became the founder of the iluminati, and Cypher is actually of his own gene seed and is working behind the scenes in disguise to carry out his Primarchs orders.

[Brother Immolator]

From a funny perpsective:

 

Lost primarch A discovers chaos during his travels.But he doenst understand the full implications of it.The chaos powers having already planned on using Horus as their champion play a prank on A.They give him a bit of power whithout telling him anything that would seem non imperial and tell him:Go tell your dad we need to talk to him about peace!Happy primarch A goes back to terra to tell dady the good news.When he arrives he descovers that his hand is turned into a tentacle!

 

A:Look dad!Tentacles,how cool is that?

Emperor:Shoot him somebody please!

 

And thats the end of primarch A.

 

Primarch B might have been the one horus banged at his capsule during his timetravel/vision on falsegods novel.(the novel told there were ten primarch capsules by the way....)

So when he landed he might have been brain damaged.Upon discovery the emperor didnt want to have a retarted son and said:Shoot him somebody please!

[Midgard]

I think there is only one thing that a Primarch could do to deserve being purged prior to the Heresy - and that thing is failure. Think about it - Lorgar was censured because he failed to follow his father's vision, and was in danger of failing to do his duty (conquest of the galaxy). Thousand Sons were almost disbanded due to their genetic flaws - again, failing, albeit in a physical manner (Magnus disobeyed a direct order, but his circumstances appeared different, and it happened significantly after the discussion in "A Thousand Sons" pointing that the Legion was in danger of being disbanded due to genetic instability).

 

This means that it is very likely that at least one of the two missing Primarchs failed at his task - in other words, he was defeated and quite possibly killed over the course of his campaigns. While the Emperor might tolerate a variety of different methods of waging war, it seems that not doing the job of conquering the galaxy was a big issue for him.

 

Furthermore, the entire Great Crusade was based on one simple axiom - the Legiones Astartes were invincible, undefeatable, and always managed to win. If a Legion failed while led by its Primarch, it is also a major public relations nightmare - how do you explain to the rest of the galaxy that your perfect ultimate warriors led by a god-like general could not do what they were tasked with doing? Knowing that the Marines are beatable even when led by a Primarch is a public relations nightmare, because if the knowledge gets out, many lost colonies might be more inclined to fight for their independence, or might even be able to replicate the methods used to defeat the Marines.

 

Now, suppose one of the lost Legions is on a major campaign, led by its Primarch. Said campaign ends up a complete disaster - massive losses which may even include the Primarch himself, and the Legion still does not have a completed objective to show for it, or the victory is accomplished only after the Primarch's death. The Emperor will have two massive problems - first, the Legions are supposed to be unbeatable, and no one must get wind that they can be beaten. Second, the Primarchs are a public relations project - if a Primarch, supposedly this immortal, god-like thing made into the Emperor's own image, can be defeated by a renegade human/xenos/whatever, the knowledge must not get out.

 

Imagine if there was a relatively low-tech way to effectively defend against nuclear weapons. Now, imagine that the knowledge of such method becomes public. All of a sudden, nuclear arsenals of major world powers become far less valuable as deterrent or as conventional military threat. The Primarchs and their Legions are the nuclear weapons of the Great Crusade, and from a public relations standpoint they must be inviolable and invincible, or their value diminishes greatly. Perhaps one or both of the lost Primarchs failed - and as a result, their memories were basically given a damnatio memoriae, while their Legions were either disbanded, incorporated into others, or otherwise written off. As a result, the Imperium still holds on to the myth that the Primarchs and the Legions are undefeatable, which aids greatly in reconquest of the galaxy, while the truth remains hidden in plain sight.

[Rakene]

the other primarch was exposed to the warp in his cracked capsule or was experimented on by the emperor (to make an effective warp resistant marine) and the result was the legion of the damned. We all know that they supposedly showed up during the cursed founding....but maybe thats when they reappeared. Didnt Dorn ask Malcdor about the other legion, and the reply was that they were lost???

I believe it's been stated that the Legion of the Damned were the Firehawks chapter. And if the Starchild theory or the theory about the Emperor becoming the new Chaos God of fanaticism are true then these bad boys are his Daemons.

 

Whoever the Primarch's were they must have done something unspeakable to have been purged from records, even Horus plus the Traitors haven't been purged from Imperial records to this day.

[Legatus]

However, the traitor legions are still around, so deleting all records of them would be quite detrimental. Perhaps once a traitor Legion was destroyed beyond any reasonable doubt and without any trace left, perhaps then their records could be deleted as well?

[TheDVoid]

Prehaps the two lot primarchs fell on planets that were under the sway of chaos? Maybe they became warped and corrupted even before they were refound so the Emperor had them expunged or prehaps

they thought they themselves were gods or apon the Emperors rediscovery of them they turn from him

and fight against his forces.

[Brother-chaplain Astador]

Perhaps it could have been

 

That their Marines were created from their DNA and went about their usual business crusading, saving planets etc, but by the time these two Primarchs were discovered, they had been tainted or corrupted somehow, thus their legions had to be 'destroyed'

 

There's also the question of uncontrollable mutation

[Skirax]

I always had the idea that the missing two were among the last to be found, and one of them resisted the Emperor taking him from his homeworld, for whatever reason, so much so that it drove them both to exchanging blows and the Emperor killing him. My reasoning behind this:

 

1) It would explain that whole "Ultramarines got huge number boost after they were "purged""; as we all know, Legions were built on Terra and when the MP was found and refused to join the Great Crusade, they were sent to the closest Legion homeworld; Macragge.

2) It explains the idea that the "Legion" took part in the Crusade, and IIRC no canon ever mentions a definitive answer to the question "Did the Primarchs take part?"

3) It explains why the Emperor would "purge" his record, purely out of shame.

 

That's my theory on Number 2, because Number 11 was punctured by Horus in False Gods (I know, I know, it was a Vision, but all the same...)

[Mutters]

Back in the day, 40k and Warhammer Fantasy where related, with Fantasy being a world within the 40k universe. I'd venture to think that Sigmar was one of the Primarchs, and by the time the Emperor was waging his Crusade, Sigmar was being worshipped as a God, and thus broke the Emperor's rules. He slew Sigmar and covered it up, but avoided conquering the WHFB world (for plot reasons) and covered up its existence in the astronomican. (for reasons that GW split the two systems apart)

 

The other primarch could be Tzar'chanek, fallen to chaos or whatever.

[Jordan-096]

I always had the idea that the missing two were among the last to be found, and one of them resisted the Emperor taking him from his homeworld, for whatever reason, so much so that it drove them both to exchanging blows and the Emperor killing him. My reasoning behind this:

 

1) It would explain that whole "Ultramarines got huge number boost after they were "purged""; as we all know, Legions were built on Terra and when the MP was found and refused to join the Great Crusade, they were sent to the closest Legion homeworld; Macragge.

2) It explains the idea that the "Legion" took part in the Crusade, and IIRC no canon ever mentions a definitive answer to the question "Did the Primarchs take part?"

3) It explains why the Emperor would "purge" his record, purely out of shame.

 

That's my theory on Number 2, because Number 11 was punctured by Horus in False Gods (I know, I know, it was a Vision, but all the same...)

 

in the first heretic,

it is rumored that the 2nd and 11th were absorbed by the 13th(Ultramarines), which would explain why they had several times the strength of some of the other large legions. it is also hinted that they may have done something similar to Lorgar's "Imperial Creed"

 

 

also, on the theory of the legions being moved to the nearest unpurged legion homeworld, the codex space marines starmap has a world called prism in the Ultima Segmentum, near Ultramar. the symbol for prism is that of the rainbow warriors, and is listed as -Record Deleted-

Suspicious?

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

A D-B has said many, many times that this wasn't meant to be taken seriously but rather just a jab thrown at the Ultramarines since they were still angry at them.

[Legatus]

also, on the theory of the legions being moved to the nearest unpurged legion homeworld, the codex space marines starmap has a world called prism in the Ultima Segmentum, near Ultramar. the symbol for prism is that of the rainbow warriors, and is listed as -Record Deleted-

Suspicious?

Nice catch. An obvious reference to the Rainbow Warriors. (Well, not obvious enough for me to have noticed it until now...) Although I would not really call that "near Ultramar". :D

[brianboru]

In First Heretic, when Erebus is explaining about blood sampling the Custodes, he mentions having failed in his testing of 11 Legions, the 9 who turned I'm guessing and possibly the 2 who are missing? Hard to imagine any loyalist legions standing for blood testing. Maybe the lost legions had turned earlier or he had access to some of them. It might imply that they were flawed somewhat before.

[Captian Xavier]

Could it be at all likley that one of, or both, the missing legions became physically too powerful? For example Magnus was attacked by the Space Wolves because he used he physic powers and caused great damage to the Emperors project, could it be that the same thing happened again and the Space Wolves were sent to destroy one or both of the legions? I mean it would explain why all the legions think the Space Wolves are nuts and are afraid of them, it would explain why in the first few HH books Horus (I think) describes the Space Wolves legion as a 'legion destroyer' or words to that effect. Just a thought anyway :)

[2.71828]

I agree with the Emperor’s insight that religious worship of a concept which is other than universal and prefect is and can be very problematic. I do not agree that the Emperor’s extreme actions were justified. The actions were especially unjustified with regards to Prospero, demonstrating a fanatic will that overshadowed the sacred need to embody knowledge.