Fluff in a new DA codex

[Captain Semper]

The Emperor (to my knowledge) had not any kind of strict guidelines in place for the Legions' organization. Deathwing (as is now) was formed post heresy. The Emperor did not care how many assault squads you have per company or per chapter... This was left up to the Primarchs. So having a lot of bikes (Ravenwing) was not a matter of divergence but preference. Noone would prosecute you for that nor did any Primarch needed to "keep up appearances" with anybody else - This is the post Heresy attitude with the introduction of the Codex Astartes (which was effectively how UM liked to fight).

This is not quite true. While the Primarchs were given command of their Legions, ans some did indeed alter them to suit their own preferred fighting methods, the Legions were formed by the Emperor prior to the discovery of the Primarchs. The Legions were the armies that the Emperor created for the Great Crusade, and as each Primarch was found in turn, his Legion was presented to him, and he to his Legion. The Legions were organized into groups of of many Grand Companies each. Each Grand Company was 1,000 men, if I recall correctly, and Legions had even as many as one hundred(perhaps a bit more) of these Grand Companies. The Legions were, quite simply, massive. As the 1st Legions has its genesis as the Emperor's personal army, it undoubtedly was one of the bigger legions. What Roboutte Gulliman did was just shrink down the Legion structure to a Chapter structure(i.e. the Grand Companies of 1,000 marines each were shrunk down to Companies of 100 marines each), and attach a strategy and tactics manual to it. An important undertaking to be sure, but he didn't create the formative structure for the Legions, nor did any other Primarch- the Emperor did before even a single Primarch was found.

 

I do not understand how this counters what I said... The Emperor did indeed create the legions in the absence of the Primarchs. But he did create a generic military formation divided (as you correctly pointed out) into grand companies of roughly 10k marinles in each and so on... At this point being a World Eater or a Dark Angel made little difference (organizationally speaking). Once Primarchs took over their personality undoubtedly influenced the fighting style of each legion and frankly why shouldn't it? There were no hard and fast rules at the time... No "codex" the Primarchs needed to adhere to. The Emperor would never go into the trouble to question the mix of squads in a company or accuse a Primarch that he deviates from the norm... What norm? Furthermore (and more to the point) the formation of Deathwing was a direct result of the HH. Were there DA Terminators before? of course. But they did not call themselves Deathwing and did not differ (mission wise) from other legions equivalent troops. So what you mentioned a couple of posts ago - that DAs Legion differed from the rest in that they had DW and RW is not the case.

 

Just to get back to the original topic, this is 40k not 30k. DAs are not the noble warriors they were perceived as during the Great Crusade... They are introvert, clandestine organization with secrets and secret sociaties that go to great lengths to keep up appearences. They do fight the good fight on behalf of the Imperium but only when this does not clash with their own agenda. So "knights in shining" armour does not really describe this darker story line. They used to be much more knightly (although this is debatable too) but they are no more...

[Brother Degas]

Wether its knightly or not, the key thing is the darker side to the DA.

 

There was an intresting post earlier about how the cultural indoctrination that occured in other chapters didnt happen with the DA because of the destruction of Caliban, I think this is a great stroyline/hook.

 

Think about it, you basically have carte blanche to do what you want with this. Imagine the bitterness, bile and hatred this would generate and how that would permeate through a legion creating its own version of events/retelling events but with each generation it changes slightly.

 

Or you could take it in the direction: the DA take pride in being th first legion and empahsis this aspect, along with the fall (i.e. only we can be trusted because we know what can happen and guard against it) you basically end up with a bunch of scary a*se marines who dont care about external influences and just do what they think is right for whatever reason.

 

so codex adherence and loyalty become vague concepts to hide what the da are really doing; who says Cypher is a bad guy, maybe they are trying resurect the emperor or some such.

[andrew55]

i would like to see something like an assault squad that can take bolters. and some more stories. ive always seen DA as a shooting army so a jump pack shopoty squad would be nice!

[HsojVvad]

Id like to see the DA take a darker tone and become more of the anti-hero chapter. Still knightly and honorable but not afraid to cross the line and do whats right to win a battle, i.e. kill 1000's to save 1,000,000's etc.

 

They have a unique duality of character and purpose and Id like to see that explored more, not just individual awesome warriors that are rip-offs trying to compete with other chapters, but a more intellectual exploration of into the reasons they dont fall, their strength of character etc not just big battles.

 

reason for edit:spelling

I do not want to see this at all. I believe almost every SM chapter does this. I am finding 40K is getting out of hand how almost every faction in the Imperium is worse than Nazis now.

 

I would actually like to see the DA be dark, but be above the kill 1000 to save 1 000 000. If anything that would be why the Deathwing have Bone white armour. (sorry the name eludes me of the planet and names right now) The could have Excommunicated the planed and destroyed it, but they fought till they all died defending the lives and not taking the easy way out.

 

I also don't want to see DA portrayed as soon as a Fallen is "sniffed" or know about that DA will leave everythig and let mass people die just so they can chase them.

[Brother Degas]

I see your point HsojVvad, I was trying to demonstrate the DA's moral ambiguity/darker side but they definatly should not be rip off other chapters, they are far to flavorsum to waste with generic stories.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Id like to see the DA take a darker tone and become more of the anti-hero chapter. Still knightly and honorable but not afraid to cross the line and do whats right to win a battle, i.e. kill 1000's to save 1,000,000's etc.

 

They have a unique duality of character and purpose and Id like to see that explored more, not just individual awesome warriors that are rip-offs trying to compete with other chapters, but a more intellectual exploration of into the reasons they dont fall, their strength of character etc not just big battles.

 

reason for edit:spelling

I do not want to see this at all. I believe almost every SM chapter does this. I am finding 40K is getting out of hand how almost every faction in the Imperium is worse than Nazis now.

 

I would actually like to see the DA be dark, but be above the kill 1000 to save 1 000 000. If anything that would be why the Deathwing have Bone white armour. (sorry the name eludes me of the planet and names right now) The could have Excommunicated the planed and destroyed it, but they fought till they all died defending the lives and not taking the easy way out.

 

I also don't want to see DA portrayed as soon as a Fallen is "sniffed" or know about that DA will leave everythig and let mass people die just so they can chase them.

 

Yep, and Boreas' sacrifice in AoD. I'd actually like to see us percieved as bad guys by much of the imperium but actually be very 'good'. A flipside view to most, non DA players love to hassle us about having our own mini fall and it is a source of delight to me to prove them wrong.

 

stobz

[Droma]

One of the biggest reasons I'm pushing for a 2nd theme from the fallen one is that the fallen theme is already hugely documented. I don't see how they can add anything more to either in the fluff or in the models.

 

@shabbadoo

You're correct to a degree about the influence of the terrans but there are many fluff instances of the Lion not trusting the terran marines. Also while the legions did come pre-formed they certainly didn't maintain those numbers throughout the entire crusade. For at least 50 years new recruits and the teachings of the Lion were supplanting the terran marines. So to say that there really wasn't much calabanite influence in the dark angels is more than a little disingenuous. Did Johnson change how the knightly orders funcioned? Yes, but not to the degree you're claiming. Less than a lifetime had gone by between the emperor coming to calaban and the horus heresy which isn't nearly enough time for all influence to be lost. Especially when you consider that almost all of the new recruits inducted into the legion and a good portion of the new command staff were either knights in training or knights themselves. The betrayal was a major event and it compounded the dark angels already secretive nature but it certainly didn't change the way they fight or conduct themselves. You have to remember that before you learn anything of the fallen you've probably been a dark angel for at least 80 years. That is a lot of time for other traditions(monastic/knightly) to ingrain themselves before you're hit over the head with knowledge of the fallen. Think about this if you were 80 right now and were told some monumental secret do you really think it would fundamentally change who you are as a person? It's something that you would have to be mindful of but it's definitely not going to supplant the entirety of your being. One more piece of evidence, what percentage of missions have to do with the fallen for the deathwing/any captain compared to normal ones? Not a whole lot. The only ones who would be very heavily influenced by their hunt for the fallen would be chaplains.

 

Edit: The book Angels of Darkness is a really good example of how learning of the secret alters the thinking of the DA that learns of it.

 

This is all my opinion at least after having read just about everything currently in print about the DA. I'm glad this topic seems to be interesting though there is lots of good discussion happening.

 

 

Guys lets not forget to discuss some of the other fluff we'd like altered that is more specific. What kind of battles do we want to see the DA winning, how do we want our special characters stories to evolve?

[shabbadoo]

Lion didn't change the other knightly orders- he marginalized them. How? By making the Order not about the glory and edification of its members, but by actually doing what they were supposed to do- protect the people. Rather than send off one knight to die horribly fighting this or that monster, a concentrated effort was made to wipe out the bests. The results we so dramatic, and resulted in such a change in the everyday lives of the populace, that knights left other orders to join THE Order. So, you see, Lion never needed to change the other orders. He just absorbed their membership and rendered them irrelevant. In effect, he was in the process of creating a mini-Imperium. Lion was quite pleased with the forces put at his disposal. He didn't just hand them a new playbook and tell them "You are doing it this way now, Terrans." The Emperor was kind of a genius, as the Emperor is a genius compared to a Primarch, as a Primarch is a genius compared to a normal man. So, Lion didn't see much fault there to "fix". Just two grand companies were altered, though this was only to tactical reasons, not any other. And the 100,000 Terrans didn't just go "Oh Boy! Calibanites ideals! I must absorb their culture and become one with them." The Legion was already defined by Terran culture/ideals when Lion got it, and the division between Calibanites and Terrans would be precisely why the Calibanite influence would not take hold to any great degree with the Dark Angels Legion as the influences of homeworlds did with other chapters. Besides, the Emperor's ideals already mirrored those of the Order, and the Lgion ws living it heat and soul, so there wouldn't be much reason for change anyways.

 

As to not trusting the Terran marines, of course Lion didn't initially trust them. Look at what he had just dealt with- a knightly order actually working counter to the whole purpose of the knightly orders. Yeah, it would kind of be insensible for him to immediately thereafter assume that a bunch of strangers would be more beyond reproach than those who he had grown up around and thought he knew as well as anyone. As time passed, Lion began removing more and more Calibanites from his forces and sending them home/elsewhere. That's documented too, and it was the main point for Luther's oratory(the old "When will be get our turn at glory?" shtick). The Calibanites created tension in the Legion, and Lion even ruminates on this being in the nature of the Calibanites, they being from a tainted planet. They were simply divisive, not realizing that it is they who were the n00bs, not the other way around(let alone seeing themselves of greater status than the Terrans due to growing up with the Primarch). Apparently Lion didn't like to have the Calibanites around as much as things progressed, as they were often a pain in his arse. Getting rid of those you know and grew up with in favor of staying with those you didn't even know until recently is a rather telling insight into just what Lion thought of the Terrans and Calibanites. And there goes much of your Calibanite influence, sent off back to the home world or to some out of the way place where their divisiveness could cause the least amount of trouble.

 

And so it all hit the fan, and that source of influence was blasted into dust, and one big planetoid. All was lost, and then a new influence began to take hold- shame and humility. "We are not beyond reproach. We must strive to eradicate those who betrayed us, for they are not only a stain upon the Chapter's honor but work to a purpose antithetical to our cause, which is the Primarch's and the Emperor's cause. Only then will our penance come to an end." Honor, with humility. That is the influence of the Lion and the Calabanites combined(the former a lesson on what one should do, the latter a lesson on what one should not do).

 

The Dark Angels are not the Order, but bigger, and with Space Marines. That's my interpretation anyways. :)

[Brother Degas]

Thats a nice summation shab, it reminded me of a bit in the purging of kadalis when a DA marine (I forget the name) talks to some guardsmen about being an astartes and the sacrifcies involved.

 

Personally I like the whole redemption idea, but dont want the DA to be a steriotypical good guy looking for redemption its all a bit meh.

 

They should be darker and have a more sinsiter tilt, even coming close to contravening the rule of terra, are they a legion or are they not, who knows....

 

anyways thats my take.

[Arioch]

I think I share viewpoint with Stobz on the DA. They may seem evil and ruthless to outsiders, but in reality they are not as "evil" as people may think. But they often have to act "evil" to serve their honour our some other agenda, though they know they are doing things wrong.

 

I would really not like new fluff saying the Dark Angels killed 1 million people to save a billion. That just resembles the new (and terrible) fluff in the Grey Knight Codex. In fact I could see the DA doing the opposite, if the right circumstances where there. It has often been said that the Dark Angels does not have to be knights, because Black Templars and Grey Knights have that angle covered. But I dont see that as a valid point. The Dark Angels have as much rigth to this theme as anyone of the others. They came before Templars. In some sense, most chapters are ´knightly´ to a smaller or lesser degree, but there are many different ways to show this. Black Templars are crusader knights, or a stereotypical crusader. Ruthless, agressive and zealous. Grey Knigths are more paladins than actual knights, and seem more pragmatic than honorfull. The newest HH story about the Dark Angels suggest that at least somone among the writters think that the DA should be more knightly in aspect.

 

I think they are the solid mix of old testament angels, monks, knights and teutonnic order. Plus a lot of other things of course.

 

Anyone who like the old native american theme? I certainly dont, cant we just forget that part?

[ODM]

Good stuff here guys.

 

I would like the fluff in the codex to reflect the advances from the Horus Heresy novels. i.e the DA fought the Sons of Horus and were fighting running battles against the Nightlords during the Heresy and were blocked from returning to Terra. Even the part about the Lion realizing how it would look to future generations, "Loyalty is its own Reward."

 

I'd wouldn't mind seeing the Vraks storyline added as one of the famous battles, as well as the scouring of Thranx (I think) described in Deathwing.

 

I would like to see a timeline, a la the Rulebook and the SM Codex, for the key events we know the DA took part in, and the key events in the Chapter's history.

[Droma]

That would be nice to see ODM. I liked the story in the vraks book except for the part where Azreal gets his butt kicked. All our chapter heroes seem to either lose fights or they very quickly brush over the parts of them being awesome. For example in Belial's section it says he has lead the deathwing on a major string of victories and they distinguished themselves in the 13th black crusade around the eye of terror. It's only for about two sentences though. I want to know what chaos/xenos he's smacked in the face with his thunder hammer. Most of the stories about our leaders say they are tactical geniuses outmaneuvering the forces of evil but they always lose in a stand up fight. It's annoying to say the least.

[Mattias]

I have to say I disagree with shabbadoo regarding the level of influence the knightly traditions of Caliban had on the Dark Angels. If you read through the Horus Heresy novels it seems clear that by the time of the Heresy marines from Terra were in the minority in many other Legions and that whatever traditions had existed before had been largely supplanted by those from that Legion's home world (Lunar Wolves, Death Guard etc). I have seen no evidence that this would not be the case for the Dark Angel's as well, bearing in mind that the Legion was recruiting massively from Caliban over a period of more than fifty years and the Primarch himself was trained as a knight.

 

Only five hundred marines were initially sent back to Caliban in disgrace and thousands were recruited from Caliban so I do not believe that it is at all accurate to suggest the the Dark Angels Legion was purged of it's Calibanite influence.

 

Indeed that influence can be clearly seen in the adoption of the practice of having an Inner Circle and the most recent Horus Heresy novel clearly illustrates the knightly nature of the Dark Angels.

[Master Toddius]

Here is a vision of the DA's developed years ago on this forum.

 

Knights of the Order

 

Everything is so hand to hand focused with the other major SM codexes. I'd like to see a shooting based army with the heads of the inner circle being master swordsmen. Set up shooting increases with the ravenwing as scouts for target detection and intel. I'd like to see a greenwing list that is comparable to SM's again. Basically lets get away from only the small percentage of specialist units being the over all dominant units in a DA army. If you want to take a full DW/RW force you can but lets encourage the use of the main battleforce as well.

 

I'd like to see our vet serg's be much more interesting. Our chaplain be unique, or at least a couple different types of chaplain upgrades in the hunt for the fallen. [Can upgrade vet serg to chaplain for X points]

I'd like to see our libbies utilizing psycher powers that influence the mind of the enemy in interesting ways. Fear, confusion, miss direction. Also influence friendly models as well in positive ways.

 

I'd like to see our Masters follow suit to the personality of our primarch. [insert the lions fluff here]

 

I'd like to see a unique predator, dreadnought, and/or whirlwind artillery design. Supposedly we have some of the best and most ancient weapon caches of any other SM chapter. And? Where are some of these?

 

And beyond that, couldn't care less about complaints on any level from any non-DA fan posting on this thread. I won't entertain them.

 

Cheers. ;)

[shabbadoo]

I have to say I disagree with shabbadoo regarding the level of influence the knightly traditions of Caliban had on the Dark Angels. If you read through the Horus Heresy novels it seems clear that by the time of the Heresy marines from Terra were in the minority in many other Legions and that whatever traditions had existed before had been largely supplanted by those from that Legion's home world (Lunar Wolves, Death Guard etc). I have seen no evidence that this would not be the case for the Dark Angel's as well, bearing in mind that the Legion was recruiting massively from Caliban over a period of more than fifty years and the Primarch himself was trained as a knight.

 

Only five hundred marines were initially sent back to Caliban in disgrace and thousands were recruited from Caliban so I do not believe that it is at all accurate to suggest the the Dark Angels Legion was purged of it's Calibanite influence.

 

Indeed that influence can be clearly seen in the adoption of the practice of having an Inner Circle and the most recent Horus Heresy novel clearly illustrates the knightly nature of the Dark Angels.

You might want to note where the influence of homeworld marines is mostly seen in the Horus Heresy books early on. Hey, wait an minute. It's with the Legions that were destined to turn traitor. Hmm... It's almost like there is a plan there. The Primarch who turns traitor, favoring the marines from their home world whom they have wrapped around their little finger due to practically being worshiped as a near god-like figure, rather than favoring those marines from Terra who, until they got hold of them served The Emperor personally, and probably have a strong sense of loyalty to the big old shiny golden guy? Gee, the mystery is clearing up as to why quite few of the Legions ended up favoring the homeworld marines so early on. Just about half of them apparently favored the homeworld marines noticeably more than the Terran marines. ;)

 

Also, there is not much knightly in the latest Dark Angels Horus Heresy book than there is for any other Chapter. All space marines are space knights; some just more blatantly follow knightly traditions(Black Templars, Grey Knights).

 

As to only 500 Calabanites being sent back. Let's say that Caliban produced 5,000 recruits in their time, which would be a HUGE amount considering that Chapters currently recruits only number a few hundred or so from an entire planet, and only a few dozen of those survive to even become Scouts, let alone full battle brothers. Let's say they sucked up 50,000 recruits, and 5,000 went on to become full battle brothers(which is a nearly unheard of success rate, but that is what is said to have happened among the Calabanite recruits). 5,000 successes would be a huge amount, and yet a full 10% of them were defective douche bags? That's HUGE. So, 5,000 marines overwhelmingly influenced 100,000, inserting a whole slew of knightly traditions into the organization? Not likely.

 

I think where Caliban fits in precisely as an example of what it is- an object lesson. That's the Caliban experience. Thinking that the Legion would even more strongly embrace Calibanite ideals after the treachery seems ludicrous. Was the Legion ripe for embracing those ideals prior to the Fall? Sure, and if there was no Fall then the Legion would probably be very different now. But it's not. Instead of being shaped by noble knighthood over 10,000 years, it has been shaped by the foulest of treachery, and that is the Dark Angels' lasting legacy.

 

As to overall demeanor. Some Chapter are on amiable an friendly terms with outsiders. The Dark Angels not so much, though they will interact well enough with those who have ties to them(like the folks who live on worlds they recruit from; ref. the Piscina IV governor and PDF commanders in both Purging of Kadillus, etc.). Space Marines are simply brutal and intimidating though. I forget what story it is from, but her's the gist of it:

 

Little kid: Have you ever seen a space marine, Papa?

Man: Yes I have, son. Angels of the Emperor, son, in the flesh.

Little Kid: Wow! I hope that one day I'll see a space marine too!

Man: I pray that you don't. The Astartes only show up where there is the most dire need of them.

 

Unless you live on a space marine homeworld, or on a recruiting world, seeing a space marine is not a sign of good things. Very likely the crap hasn't just hit the fan, but has knocked the fan off the shelf to crash upon the floor into a thousand pieces. And, the space marine haven't shown up to fix the fan, just deal with the crap, and in the process of dealing with the crap they will likely further break that fan into a million pieces. Guess who has to clean up the fan? With that in mind, tack onto that impression how the Dark Angels will interact with those that are not from one of their recruiting worlds(i.e they don't worry much about ingratiating themselves with the locals all that much), they are probably going to be seen as less warm and fuzzy than they usually aren't. that lends them an aura of mystery. That they have the whole penitent warrior monk thing going works up the mystery as well.

 

One a side note, anyone who has read "Fists of Dorn" will know that the Imperial Fists Scouts actually have more emphasis on mastery of the sword mentioned in that one text than is ever mentioned for the Dark Angels Chapter. Almost like the sword is the Imperial Fists signature weapon. Arrgh!!! :D

[Mattias]

You might want to note where the influence of homeworld marines is mostly seen in the Horus Heresy books early on. Hey, wait an minute. It's with the Legions that were destined to turn traitor. Hmm... It's almost like there is a plan there. The Primarch who turns traitor, favoring the marines from their home world whom they have wrapped around their little finger due to practically being worshiped as a near god-like figure, rather than favoring those marines from Terra who, until they got hold of them served The Emperor personally, and probably have a strong sense of loyalty to the big old shiny golden guy? Gee, the mystery is clearing up as to why quite few of the Legions ended up favoring the homeworld marines so early on. Just about half of them apparently favored the homeworld marines noticeably more than the Terran marines.

 

That suggestion has no basis in fact, firstly even if your suggestion that we have only seen a homeworld influence for those Legions that turned traitor was held to be true, then I would suggest that this is because the early Horus Heresy books follow the exploits of the traitor Legions and not the loyalists. You cannot assume that the loyalist Legions were uninfluenced by their homeworlds simply because they have not been covered in a book.

 

However your suggestion can be proved to be incorrect as those loyalist Legions that have been covered in detail thus far have demonstrated massive homeworld influence, case in point the Space Wolves in Prospero Burns.

 

Also, there is not much knightly in the latest Dark Angels Horus Heresy book than there is for any other Chapter. All space marines are space knights; some just more blatantly follow knightly traditions(Black Templars, Grey Knights).

 

Have you actually read Savage Weapons? It quite clearly establishes a knightly character for the Dark Angels legion, even to the extent of the characters stating that they have a different sense of honour to the Night Lords due to being knights. I have never read any material that would suggest that the other Legions considered themselves to be knights.

 

As to only 500 Calabanites being sent back. Let's say that Caliban produced 5,000 recruits in their time, which would be a HUGE amount considering that Chapters currently recruits only number a few hundred or so from an entire planet, and only a few dozen of those survive to even become Scouts, let alone full battle brothers. Let's say they sucked up 50,000 recruits, and 5,000 went on to become full battle brothers(which is a nearly unheard of success rate, but that is what is said to have happened among the Calabanite recruits). 5,000 successes would be a huge amount, and yet a full 10% of them were defective douche bags? That's HUGE. So, 5,000 marines overwhelmingly influenced 100,000, inserting a whole slew of knightly traditions into the organization? Not likely.

 

Again this is pure conjecture on your part and does not match up with what has been written, in a single report in Fallen Angels over four thousand new marines are reported as having been trained that training cycle. When you take into account that the Dark Angels were recruiting from Caliban for over 50 years, as well as the initial one off recruitment that occurred when the knights of the Order were incorporated into the Dark Angels Legion it seems clear that a massive number of marines originated from Caliban by the time of the Heresy. This is consistent with the other Legions that have been covered, where the majority of marines did not originate from Terra by the time of the Heresy. I have seen no evidence that the Dark Angels would deviate from this trend.

 

I think where Caliban fits in precisely as an example of what it is- an object lesson. That's the Caliban experience. Thinking that the Legion would even more strongly embrace Calibanite ideals after the treachery seems ludicrous. Was the Legion ripe for embracing those ideals prior to the Fall? Sure, and if there was no Fall then the Legion would probably be very different now. But it's not. Instead of being shaped by noble knighthood over 10,000 years, it has been shaped by the foulest of treachery, and that is the Dark Angels' lasting legacy.

 

Again this is conjecture on your part and is not supported by the evidence we have, for instance we know that the Dark Angels formed an Inner Circle (a practice originating from Caliban), they formed the Ravenwing (a tradition from Caliban) and they changed their heraldry to green in order to commemorate the loss of Caliban. All these things illustrate a very strong Calibanite influence on the Dark Angels, so why would they not have been affected by the knightly traditions?

 

To be honest it seems to me as though a lot of what you are professing are just your personal opinions and are not backed up by any evidence in the source material.

 

I could see your point if you were attempting to argue that due to the treachery the knightly traditions of the Dark Angels gradually declined or altered over the years, but suggesting that the Dark Angels were never considered to be knights is not supported by the official fluff.

[Gillyfish]

Interesting discussion.

 

A few observations before I discuss where the DA background might be headed:

 

1. To some extent, all Space Marines are knights.

 

2. To some extent, all Space Marines are monkish.

 

3. To some extent, all Space Marines have a dark secret (except, perhaps, the Ultramarines)

 

 

There is a strong knightly theme within the current DA background - this is mostly expressed by the fact that each Company Master has his own personal heraldry (each marine in fact, if memory serves). In recent years, this theme has been reduced in favour of the monkish theme. When the last Black Templars codex came out the designers noted that the BT and DA had several common elements and that they needed to take care to make the Templars appear sufficiently different (hence the emphasis on personal valour and oaths). The Templars epitomise the idea of chivalry as it is commonly (mis)conceived. You could argue that the Dark Angels could the reality - the flipside to the coin where the ends justify the means and it's not about saving individuals. To an extent that is true.

 

Then there is the theme of a monkish order. The DA currently have robes in their favour. But they also exemplify the aspects of religious orders that mean giving up the world you know to serve a higher purpose. Think about Azrael's quote 'Forget all you know, henceforth you are a Dark Angel' (or something similar). Every chapter has this element to it (think about the Blood Angels and the physical change their members go through), but with the DA there is a physical removal as well as they move far from their homeworlds. The secretive, insular elements of a supposedly closed community are also there too, particularly around The Big Secret.

 

However, there is a bit of contradiction between these two themes. Monks are supposedly peaceful and selfless - knights are decidedly not (although chivalric knights are). The knightly orders do blend the two, but not comfortably. That element is already covered by Templars. So where does that leave the Dark Angels? I would assume the monkish element will continue to be highlighted, but how do you make them more warlike? There are two elements which monks are also known for which aren't already covered above - ritual and study. Rituals are already mentioned in the Codex (the Feast of Malediction being one) and study is something that all marines are supposed to do. However, these elements could be highlighted by making them more warlike, possibly even giving them benefits on the battlefield - perhaps the Dark Angels are particularly studious in the field of strategy, maybe they have rituals which make them ever more zealous.

 

Moving away from these themes, the Dark Angels seem to be something of a psychological Chapter, with high instances of Fearless and a history of abilities that affect enemy morale. I can see both of these elements being developed further, maybe tying in with the rituals above. I can also see the monkish element being developed, although there will (and should) always be the knightly theme underpinning things.

[Koremu]

Playing with (and expanding) the theme of the "cult of mysteries" concept where each rank is inducted into select "truths" of the greater whole fits both with the known personality of the Primarch, the theme of the fallen, the pre-existing background fluff & the charges which were eventually laid against the real-life knightly orders.

 

It also provides opportunity for tension between higher & lower ranks; the lower ranks may be frequently given orders which make no sense to them because they have not been inducted into knowledge of certain mysteries.

 

In a way it would make the Dark Angels the loyalist reflection of the Alpha Legion - the first and the last.

[Captain Semper]

Playing with (and expanding) the theme of the "cult of mysteries" concept where each rank is inducted into select "truths" of the greater whole fits both with the known personality of the Primarch, the theme of the fallen, the pre-existing background fluff & the charges which were eventually laid against the real-life knightly orders.

 

It also provides opportunity for tension between higher & lower ranks; the lower ranks may be frequently given orders which make no sense to them because they have not been inducted into knowledge of certain mysteries.

 

In a way it would make the Dark Angels the loyalist reflection of the Alpha Legion - the first and the last.

 

This!

 

I don't know what the fixation with the knightly image is... People are so influneced by the HH books they think there should be some contiuity. So there were knightly orders on Caliban. But Dark Angels were not a knightly order. They were Space Marines. Sure there were influneces form Caliban as there were influneces from the Terran Marines ("Call of the Lion" is a nice example of this). So? This is 40k. No (loyal) DA comes from Caliban nowadays. This is an organization that not only does not resemble the sociaty of Caliban, it hardly looks like the old Legion. There is a hidden agenda, a mission that in the Chapter's eyes supersedes any other obligation and loyalty. The old legion under the Lion did not have that. They were just fighting the Emperor's fight best way they new how. Now things are differend.

 

And that's what I like about them. Are they good? Sure they are still loyal to the Emperor and in their eyes, redeeming themselves is a bigger service to the Emperor than say hold the line that will save an Imperial world. On the other hand they can be perceived as really bad guys that will leave the Emperor's people die in order to participate in what is effectively a "cover up" operation. So dark "Spanish Inquisition" type of archetype - fine. Noble knights -no so fine in my view.

[ODM]

Another thing I'd like to see is a character from one of the successors, a la Seth in the BA Codex.

[Droma]

I don't know what the fixation with the knightly image is... People are so influneced by the HH books they think there should be some contiuity. So there were knightly orders on Caliban. But Dark Angels were not a knightly order. They were Space Marines.

 

Bolded for emphasis. That's pretty much like saying space wolves aren't vikings in space because they're space marines or BA aren't blood drinking raging killers because they are space marines. To assert that any legion/chapter would have such a radical change from their home planets origins is ludicrous. Especially when we consider the setting as a whole where nothing changes over a period of 10,000 years and the entirety of society clings to rituals they don't understand simply because they are how it's always been done. Do the fallen have a large influence over the conduct of the DA? Yes. Are they secretive? Yes. But they were these things before the fallen. The DA have always been a circles within circles organization. They took that directly from the knightly orders upon which they were based as well as from the influence of the Lion. So to assert that one thing would completely change their established background to my mind is insane. The loyalist marines were able to handle the knowledge of their brothers turning on them in the horus heresy. Did it change them in some ways? Yes. Did it completely alter who they were as a legion? No. The same thing applies to the DA. They don't have a choice about needing to keep it secret because the entire chapter would be branded traitors if it ever came to light. The things they are forced to do because of that doesn't fundamentally change who the Dark Angels are as a chapter/legion though.

 

I'm 100% with gillyfish on this one.

 

 

Edit: Concerning the HH books. If you've read some of ADB posts(Aaron Dembski-Bowden black library author) the HH books are cannon. The guys in charge of the 40k IP over at GW are the same ones who oversee the plot points of the HH books. So yes we not only think there should be continuity but in fact it's officially endorsed by GW.

[Captain Semper]

I don't know what the fixation with the knightly image is... People are so influneced by the HH books they think there should be some contiuity. So there were knightly orders on Caliban. But Dark Angels were not a knightly order. They were Space Marines.

 

Bolded for emphasis. That's pretty much like saying space wolves aren't vikings in space because they're space marines or BA aren't blood drinking raging killers because they are space marines. To assert that any legion/chapter would have such a radical change from their home planets origins is ludicrous. Especially when we consider the setting as a whole where nothing changes over a period of 10,000 years and the entirety of society clings to rituals they don't understand simply because they are how it's always been done. Do the fallen have a large influence over the conduct of the DA? Yes. Are they secretive? Yes. But they were these things before the fallen. The DA have always been a circles within circles organization. They took that directly from the knightly orders upon which they were based as well as from the influence of the Lion. So to assert that one thing would completely change their established background to my mind is insane. The loyalist marines were able to handle the knowledge of their brothers turning on them in the horus heresy. Did it change them in some ways? Yes. Did it completely alter who they were as a legion? No. The same thing applies to the DA. They don't have a choice about needing to keep it secret because the entire chapter would be branded traitors if it ever came to light. The things they are forced to do because of that doesn't fundamentally change who the Dark Angels are as a chapter/legion though.

 

I'm 100% with gillyfish on this one.

 

 

Edit: Concerning the HH books. If you've read some of ADB posts(Aaron Dembski-Bowden black library author) the HH books are cannon. The guys in charge of the 40k IP over at GW are the same ones who oversee the plot points of the HH books. So yes we not only think there should be continuity but in fact it's officially endorsed by GW.

 

 

Look, I'm not saying HH books aren't canon. They are and I'm fine with it (I quite like the books actually and I even quoted them in my previous post to support my point). What I'm saying is they describe the 30k Universe. DAs faced a traumatic and tranformative event during the HH unlike the other legions you mention. BAs and SW continued their future endorsing their past (in the case of BAs the flaw is genetic rather than cultural and to some extent so is the case for SWs). The DAs HAD to break away from their past and accept that some of their ranks were not that loyal after all. My understanding is that the original Inner Circle was created post the destruction of Caliban from the senior members of the Legion (later to be split to Chapters) in order to protect the secret of the Fallen. I am all for circles upon circles!!! Anything that underlines the secretive nature of DAs is really welcome. The virtous knight image is alien though in the current setting and the only reference to that comes from the HH books that describe a different era (pre-fallen or should I say pre-Legion even). I do not recall any Codex (that cover the 40k period) highlighting the knightly image for our chapter.

 

Edit: typo

[Candleshoes]

No (loyal) DA comes from Caliban nowadays.

 

You'd think that were the case, but that whole turning the remnants of a shattered planet into their mobile Fortress Monastery ala the Rock, one might make the case that all 40k Dark Angels come from Caliban! I jest.

 

I do not recall any Codex (that cover the 40k period) highlighting the knightly image for our chapter.

 

They are most certainly there, but in a lot darker, subtle ways.

 

ADB posted last year an excellent mental breakdown of some of the core themes of the Dark Angels and many still resonate with the current 40k aspect of them.

 

I'll throw it on here for some more fuel for the discussion.

 

I especially like #3. Just goes to show how everything is in the eye of the beholder.

 

edit* I think we are also all forgetting just how aloof and distant the Lion was as a being and how that would ultimately affect his legacy and the growth/evolution of the marines that followed him. Other than Curze, the Lion would be the most distant and hesitant around others, and his command would ooze that. He has always done things his way, no matter what, and even with the crusades on Caliban, he struggles with some things very blatantly. It is stated that he would never have achieved his crusade on Caliban without Luthor's wisdom and words to match the Lion's mind. This shortcoming in itself would definitely be interesting to look at in regards to how the Lion's sons developed over the 10,000 year period

 

 

1. The Lion. I envisage the Lion has the absolute embodiment of knightly perfection. He's noble, honourable, austere, almost cold to the mortals around him. Not disrespectful or condescending, but distant and inhuman in his regal professionalism and honourable perfection. He's a medieval warlord, a king of a powerful nation, and carried many knightly traditions from his homeworld with him into the wars of the Great Crusade. Part of this is that he grew for a while in the wilderness of Caliban, and that experience has stayed with him. Part of it is his upbringing in the knightly orders. With his Astartes, it's a different matter. They know him well enough to see the subtle smiles or the fires in his eyes when he speaks of something he's passionate about, but to most humans he seems an austere and majestic primarch - a tactical genius, wreathed in knightly tradition, but not as immediately charismatic as the more charming Horus or Sanguinius.

 

2. I try to consider most Legion's Astartes as Soldiers + Something Else. When I write about the Night Lords, I try to convey that they're not these ultimate, elegant swordmasters; they're murderers first, and soldiers second. When they fight, they don't duel or care about technique. And it's not because they're stupid, it's because they're fighting to get a knife into your throat right from the first moment they see you. If I wrote about the World Eaters, I would make them Roman gladiators first (with the traditions and customs that come with it), and soldiers second. I'd have made the White Scars warriors first, and soldiers second, playing up the subtle differences there. It's not to diminish any Legion or make them less efficient, it's to highlight how their upbringing and Legion customs shape them as soldiers. They're soldiers, sure. But they're also something else. With the Dark Angels, I see them as knights first, and soldiers second. Their skills in warfare are shaped by the fact they're a knightly order with their own traditions, codes and customs. Each one has a knight's devotion to war; to maintaining his weapons; to considering his primarch not as "master" or "Father", but instead "my liege". The primarch is their genetic father, but that's secondary to the fact that he;s their liege lord - the man to whom they owe fealty. They're bound by their oaths as much as their blood, and take pride in that. (Conversely, this is what would've made the betrayal of Luther and the Fallen all the more difficult for many of them. They're spitting on their sworn fealty, not just rebelling against a father.)

 

3. Caliban. It was dangerous for far, far more than the Great Beasts. It was classed as a Death World in Imperial archives, and every Dark Angel will have a wealth of tales of hardship and struggle while he grew up there. Think of everything that went wrong in medieval Europe and the Dark Ages, and magnify it by ten. The Order's wars with other knightly orders were crusades that spanned continents and killed hundreds of thousands. The forests stretched on forever, making travel between settlements no easy feat, and communities struggled year after year at the wilderness' edges. The trees bled poisonous sap once you split their bark, making quality lumber even harder to come by, and the beasts in the woodland were all born of savage, lethal breeds - from vermin with no fear of humans, right through to packs of beasts that leave isolated villages devoid of life after they hunt. Locust swarms would leave towns suffering and starving, while outbreaks of Black Plague would devastate entire towns, and knights would have the grim duty of marching in with torches to burn the dead in massive funeral pyres. And the Dark Angels would all be warriors that grew up in this, and survived it. While Caliban would be changed by the Lion's crusade against the Great Beasts, it would still have strong echoes of its Death World roots.

 

So.

 

Yeah. Hope that helps.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I really like that portrayal of them.

 

I personally see the DA as Knightly (BT are NOT Knights, they are CRUSADERS, a difference) and I believe that the calibanite Marines would have a had a bigger influence than some people give them credit for. For example, why else would we wear green if the terrans were in charge? Remember, it would not have been '5000 marines joining 100,000'. 5000 were added to, maybe, 20,000(terra has only so many Marines)? It was harder to create Marines without the Primarch (Emperors Children anyone?) as he genetic material needed was not as readily available. So, more Marines created after el'Jonson is found and that brings it up to near 100,000 or however many Astartes.

 

So, I think we have a strong case for knightly traditions to influence th Legion in a big way. Someone I believe here claims that Lion spent more time around terrans, which is unsubstantiated. For example in savage weapons, Lion meets Kurze with only 2 Marines. Both are from Caliban...why would he meet his nemesis with Calibanite Marines if he doesnt trust them?

 

My two pence

[Droma]

Thanks for the quote from ADB by the way.

 

The Lion spent a lot of time with the terran marines precisely because he didn't trust them. He knew that the calabanite DA would follow his orders no matter what. He wasn't so sure the terran marines would. This can really be seen in 'Call of the Lion' in Tales of Heresy. Astelan doesn't want to sacrifice any of the populace of a world when it could be prevented and messes up the Lion's plan. Astelan succeeds in preventing any civilian death but he loses a lot of marines doing it, so he gets sent back to calaban to join Luther and the others. The problem with the terran marines(from a primarchs point of view) that is seen throughout the HH books is that they are loyal to the Emperor first and Primarch second.

 

So the way I picture the current DA is having those same knightly traditions and customs that they had developed on calaban but its all been made much darker and even more strictly adhered to, both to weed out those unworthy of advancement and also to prevent any such heresy from occurring again. I think both aspects are a lot more intertwined than some people either want to admit or maybe they just hadn't thought along those lines before.

 

@ODM

 

I wouldn't mind seeing a successor SC but which chapter would it be from? Angels of Absolution maybe since they're also a pretty famous chapter and have been known to work very closely with the Dark Angels? Also what type of character would it be? Chapter Master, Company Master, Librarian, Chaplain, or something else altogether?