Fluff in a new DA codex

[shabbadoo]

That suggestion has no basis in fact, firstly even if your suggestion that we have only seen a homeworld influence for those Legions that turned traitor was held to be true, then I would suggest that this is because the early Horus Heresy books follow the exploits of the traitor Legions and not the loyalists. You cannot assume that the loyalist Legions were uninfluenced by their homeworlds simply because they have not been covered in a book.

Hey, you are the one who pointed to the Horus Heresy books that have been written as showing examples. Sorry that it was too easy for me to use them to point out exactly the opposite of what you state the Horus Heresy books illustrate. You ought to put the "You cannot assume that the loyalist Legions were uninfluenced by their homeworlds simply because they have not been covered in a book." back in your pocket, as it is a pointless statement. We are not talking about what or may not be written in the future, but about what has been written.

 

However your suggestion can be proved to be incorrect as those loyalist Legions that have been covered in detail thus far have demonstrated massive homeworld influence, case in point the Space Wolves in Prospero Burns.

Good One. Pick the Primarch who made a point of putting his mark on his Legion in a way that no other Primarch ever did. The Space Wolves are about as indicative of a Legions' home world influence on a newly acquired Legion as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is indicative of how the average democratic republic works. You'll have to choose another example, as Leman Russ is more than well known for altering his Legion to suit his own idea of things. The Space Wolves are the exception, not the rule.

 

Also, while Lion was trained as a knight, did he stick to all of the training he was raised upon? Not quite. He saw that, while the ideals of the orders were sound(except that one order), their practices were flawed, and only served to drag out the existence of the horrors terrorizing the people of Caliban that the orders were supposedly formed to protect the people against. So he formed THE Order with similar ideals, but with a more defined goal in mind, and proceeded to make the othsr all look like chumps because his Order actually worked. Then along came the Imperium...

 

Lion: So, your my dad, huh? What have you been doing all my life?

Emperor: Other than looking for you, I have been striving to unite humanity and protect it from all threats.

Lion: DUDE! I have, like, totally been doing the same thing here on Caliban!

Emperor: I can see that. So, you will take command of your Dark Angels Legion and continue with my mission?

Lion: As if you even had to ask!

 

So, the Lion needed to alter a Legion that was already doing exactly what he had formed The Order to do? Um, I don't think so. Did he implement one of the knightly traditions that one had to go out and kill beast to become a knight? That was pretty big one there, but nope, he didn't. Lion was more likely learning all about a Darka Angels Legion which had been doing for nigh on a century(or more; I forget) what he and his knights had only been doing for only years. Yeah, that Emperor guy had some good ideas apparently. Might want to learn about how the Dark Angels Legion came to be.

 

So, what is so "knightly" about the Dark Angels?

 

Do the Dark Angels have tournaments?

Do they protect the helpless and save damsels in distress?

Do they take oaths on their honor to serve the Primarch and the Emperor?

Do they act all honorable?

 

Sure they do, but that is what the space marines of all of the Legions/Chapters do(except the traitors and the psychos that is :)). So, I'd like somebody to point out all of this "knightly heritage" present in the Dark Angels Legion/Chapter, in either the Horus Heresy books or anywhere else, that isn't already an example of how space marines of various Chapters normally behave.

 

I very much like the downplay of the knights for the monkish thing. I find it unfortunate that the Black Templars were given some things that could he been made to fit the Dark Angels even better, let alone the censers and other imagery. Sword Brethren? That one in particular killed me. Hooded Warrior Monks with swords would have been awesome for the Dark Angels. The Black Templars get the sword guys, and the Dark Angles minis get a power mace. Probably should have been the other way around. But that ship has sailed, so the Dark Angels need be something other than classical knights now. Taciturn, secretive, monkish marines works well enough, and as to fluff the whole process by which a Dark Angels progresses through the Chapter(i.e. add more detail to the info on the secretive ranks of the Inner Circle).

 

A knight angle could be added, though I would prefer it to be added in a very low key way. A nod to Caliban rather than any outright "cleverness" such as the DA Inner Circle sits at...a round table, and the Calibanite phrase for "Sword of Secrets translates to "EXCALIBUR" in ancient Terran. That would just be lame.

[Lord_Edgimus]

if we get any SC's next dex, i'd hope for one for the disciples of caliban, maybe let us into a little bit more info on them.

[shabbadoo]

More info on them would certainly be great. How about a whole page or page and a half plus art for each, rather than just a paragraph or two?

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

The Lion spent a lot of time with the terran marines precisely because he didn't trust them. He knew that the calabanite DA would follow his orders no matter what. He wasn't so sure the terran marines would. This can really be seen in 'Call of the Lion' in Tales of Heresy. Astelan doesn't want to sacrifice any of the populace of a world when it could be prevented and messes up the Lion's plan. Astelan succeeds in preventing any civilian death but he loses a lot of marines doing it, so he gets sent back to calaban to join Luther and the others. The problem with the terran marines(from a primarchs point of view) that is seen throughout the HH books is that they are loyal to the Emperor first and Primarch second.

 

hey...what? lion was not there...it was the other guy who was from Caliban (and really arrogant, he annoyed me) And Astelan, as far as I see, is as jealous of Lion as Luther. he was in charge until Lion was reunited. You make Lion sound liek a traitor...hes loyal 100% to the Emp, so I doubt it bothers him.

 

@Shabbadoo: Not all Marine Chapters are 'knightly', even normal Chapters, IF are not, they are Prussian. Yea, maybe Lion did not spread knightly traditions, but, what about the massive influx of recruits? They sure did. So, maybe there is some aspect of Knights in the DA Chapter. One tinged with guilt, there honour is stained. Its a massive quest to recover their honour, to make all the traitours repent. Its a massive undertakening, and one the Terrans would not have been favouring after the betrayal. Only, really, the Calibanite Marines. And he did not form THE Order. He may have merged all Knights into THE Order, but he did not create it. He may not have changed things much, but Knightly ideas would definetly have spread and mingled with the Terrans.

 

so, while knightly theme may not be prominent or paramount, it certainly underpins the modern DA and should not be rejected at all. Everything they do has this heritage as the foundation of their existence.

[Candleshoes]

So, what is so "knightly" about the Dark Angels?

 

Do the Dark Angels have tournaments?

Do they protect the helpless and save damsels in distress?

Do they take oaths on their honor to serve the Primarch and the Emperor?

Do they act all honorable?

 

Again, I think this deffinition isn't appropriate for the Dark Angels version of knightly, though, you are correct in what you point out, and there are many other chapters who embody these stereotypes much better.

 

Knightly in the tradition of Caliban would have been so dark, decrepit, and awful for anyone who existed on the world. A place that hates everything you stand for, that weeps and spreads disease, corruption and woe, a place where no natural sunlight touches the ground or those who inhabit it. Tournaments and damsals have no such bearing where every single one of Grimm’s Fairytales are truth, and they will infact kill your whole family.

 

Being a knight within this world stands a statement more than anything. The darkest parts of the Artharian tales, where what made a knight a knight, was the realisation that what you believe in with all your heart, may in fact be (and probably was) not real at all. Rather than giving into the evil of despair, you stand for the ideal, alone and unafraid, ready to die, never needing justification, for you never needed it in the first place. This really came to the fore in our latest short story, ala “Loyalty is its own reward.” The Dark Angels, like the Lion himself, are beyond justification.

 

ADB mentions the environment of Europe during the Black Death as a parallel. Nobody, knight or not, was heroic in the horror, nor would I imagine any of the other stereotypes on the list at the forefront. I suppose the enviroment was all we can really compare to what Caliban sat at, during the age of the Orders. It was something that was all consuming, mind, body and soul, with the greatest divide being the land itself, seperating communities and leaving them to die. The fear, the decay, the frailty, the hysterical, the soul-lessness of mankind when pushed, the stranded life or death, the burning of outsiders/witches/heretics out of fear and doubt… while religon helped in the past, on Caliban someone had to be the bulwark against this, to cage their fear and be the strength to steel resolve. This is the knightly theme at it's strongest for the DA, the worst and ugliest type of survival possible, dirty, grim, but honourable. No one else was strong enough.

 

Surviving this, being an ageless martial brotherhood that protected the most impoverished people who suffered in their environment. Tending to the dead when they were rotting and burning their bodies, rooting out corruption and punishing it, be it material or potential. Who sought out and crusaded against beasts born of the strongest conductors of the warp, or the handfuls of others who believe their view of living hell was different than the Orders.

 

Everything in life is precious on a Deathworld, especially one so close to the Eye of Terror. Order must reign, it allows life to continue, it allows you to survive. Tradition is bred into your being. Just because the great beasts were driven out of the forests, does not mean Caliban was . Yes the Lion was evolving, pushing to change and grow the people who lived in the Order, but in a life of circles, secrets, tests, oaths, and achievements, the Lion knew that he would not compromise on his visions, and that vision would always include his Calibanite heritage that adopted him, whether or not agreed with by the Terrans.

 

I suppose the question is, how best to tackle so much potential background, and what solid direction to take it, again, I am really looking forward to seeing what they do in the year(s) to come.

[Droma]

hey...what? lion was not there...it was the other guy who was from Caliban (and really arrogant, he annoyed me) And Astelan, as far as I see, is as jealous of Lion as Luther. he was in charge until Lion was reunited. You make Lion sound liek a traitor...hes loyal 100% to the Emp, so I doubt it bothers him.

 

Sorry my statement wasn't worded the best. You're correct there was another person there instead of the Lion. Astelan gave that description I mentioned I think in Angels of Darkness. Either way it was "disobedience" to the Lion that caused him to get sent back. I also didn't mean to imply the Lion was a traitor. I know he wasn't. However no leader likes when his men disobey him and then make the excuse this is what my old leader taught us. They are both doing what the Emperor wanted but the Lion(and every other Primarch) wanted it done his way. Also, if stuff like that didn't bother him why send those marines back to calaban at all?

 

 

Tales of Heresy also gives a nice quote from chapter master Belath a Calabanite Dark Angel, "I too have my honours. I was the first of my order to be chosen by the Astartes, I am the first to be made Chapter commander. I have been raised on traditions far older than your Legion, Terran. Many generations of my forefathers fought for the Order of the Raven's Wing and their blood flows in my veins. You may look down in dismay at the heritage of Caliban, but it is your home now. Its people will be your people. it is the world of the Lion, and his traditions shall be the traditions of the Dark Angels. It is by his judgment that I mark my worth, not by yours."

 

I think that gives a pretty clear indication how important Caliban and its traditions are to the Dark Angels as a Chapter and as a Legion and also their views towards the terrans in their mix.

[Captain Semper]

I am a bit taken aback by how much people like the (overplayed and frankly quite plain) knightly theme... I am also perplexed by the fact that they attribute the traditions of "The Order" to the Dark Angels Legion as a fundamental characteristic - which it was not. Furhtermore there is the underlying assumption that hey if The Order was a defining feature of the Legion (it was not) then it should have permiated to the current version of DAs. They ignore the fact that the Legion re-established itself post heresy with new internal organization, new mission and NO CALIBAN. I come to the conclusion that some people seek to establish a redeeming feature for the DA to justify their otherwise dark nature. I think the argument goes like: They are dark on the outside but they are knights so there is somenthing good about them on the inside. Well how about they do not have (such an easy) redeeming feature. They are not noble in the conventional sense. Not at all.

 

I think of them a bit like this:

 

They have an abstract mandate to serve the Imperium to which they adhere. Fine. But they also beleive the greatest service they can offer the Emperor is their redemption. This supercedes all other obligations. So whenever there is a conflict between holding the line in the odd world against the enemies of the Imperium and going after the fallen they'll always choose the latter. Now in their minds they are loyal servants of the Emperor but in the eyes of an outsider they are just acting weird (to put it mildly). They perceive their institution to be more important than any amount of lives that might be lost. This self centered attitude is not noble or knightly and nor is the Chapter's internal organization. But in their own eyes they do offer a higher service to the Emperor and therefore see themselves as virtuous.

 

So what are they? The ultimate "grey area" of the Imperium. Nothing overtly redeeming about their actions BUT their motives are the correct ones in their eyes. That sets them apart from other loyal legions but also Chaos! The latter quite willingly will damage the Imperium any chance they get. The DAs will oppose them any chance they get. Unless there is a fallen nearby.

 

So more like KGB than Lancelot :P

 

And yes the more they put in the Codex about successors the better (my preferred chapter can be seen in my profile on left :lol:).

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I agree with you, but, we cannot just let the heritage fall. What im argueing for is that the Knightly traditions are at the base of the old DA and hence the current DA, not the 'main' theme, which definetrly is their quest. Its like moving to a new country and letting your roots die completely...

 

But, ive never been comfrotable with the ditching the Imperium to hunt the fallen for the reason that our standard Marines are not supposed to know, so, wouldnt it be weird to them that they are ditching their allies? I can understand the DW and RW, but, not, say, the entire 3rd Company. It seems to obvious that they have another agenda.

 

Personally I think that the DA leadership will order the DW leave the battlefield or to kill civilians/IG/Astartes who stumble onto the truth, but, if they do, I believe that it pains them for every uneccessary life they take. If they could just get the fallen without blowing up the Templar ship or wiping out those Arbites they would. But sometimes they just cant.

 

And, if the fallen is the overriding 'theme' for the DA, it seems...limiting...especially seeing as one pops up perhaps ever 1000 years? It governs the way they operate, they do not wish to fail, they failed Lion once already, that is a stain on their honour. They WILL NOT fail the Imperium again, they will not dishonour the memory of their Primarch on the battlefield. Why are they so stubborn? Why do they refuse to yeild? because of the fallen. because they seek redemption. Is that not knightly? Heroic? Chivalrous, in a grimdark way? To stand and persevere even though they are stained. they will be taught from their scouthood that to fail is the ultimate shame...

 

That, to me, is knightly, not jousts or feasts, not this hollywood/mock arthurian image modern media showers us with. Thats how I see the DA

[ODM]

The more I think about, the more I think there's a different aspect GW should play up. One just. Hinted at so far, that would be very cool and different, without changing the character of the DA at all.

 

I think GW should play up the nature of the DA as the last true Legion of marines. With Azrael as the Grand Master and each Chapter of successors acting as Chapters used to act in the 30k timeline. I'd love to see more evidence of a centralized command structure and even cross Chapter cooperation when necessary.

 

This is something that's been hinted at but I'd love to see it codified as our differentiator. Few projenitors keep as close a relationship as the DA, why not turn us into a Secret Legion.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I like that idea!

 

A new successor character would be nice. And the way he interacts with Azrael would be a good way to reflect the single Legion idea.

[Droma]

That is another aspect of the DA that could be played up. More info about how the DA and their successors are seen regularly with one another. I'm not sure if that could be translated into any new units but it could be interesting for some apoc stuff.

 

It's useful to remember though the Templars kind of stole some of this aspect from us as well.

[ODM]

Well Templars soft of have an aspect in that no one knows how many there really are, but in the end, they're one Chapter, a successor to the Imperial Fists.

 

Having a Legion could give Azrael the kind of long range planning and massive operational scale the DA not seen from marines since, well, the Lion. Constantly coordinating multiple Chapters at one time would be kind of a cool image. sure how it would translate into rules, but I like the fluff side.

[Candleshoes]

Excellent ideas.

 

The single legion mentality would also allow them to really play up and make the Fallen a real spotlight and theme, rather than the back-burner issue it was in our current codex. Their very structure itself exists as branches of that Legion, each with their own roles and specialties, just like the codex eludes to already. The size is really the only relative similarity to the BT, but where their crusades are independent, the Unforgiven chapters act together.

[shabbadoo]

The more I think about, the more I think there's a different aspect GW should play up. One just. Hinted at so far, that would be very cool and different, without changing the character of the DA at all.

 

I think GW should play up the nature of the DA as the last true Legion of marines. With Azrael as the Grand Master and each Chapter of successors acting as Chapters used to act in the 30k timeline. I'd love to see more evidence of a centralized command structure and even cross Chapter cooperation when necessary.

 

This is something that's been hinted at but I'd love to see it codified as our differentiator. Few progenitors keep as close a relationship as the DA, why not turn us into a Secret Legion.

 

GW has already played this up by saying the the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels is answered to by all of the other Unforgiven Chapter Masters. Effectively they are a secret Legion with a unified purpose. Fortunately there is a little bit of differentiation as to each Chapters outlook on certain things. Only one other Legion is as undivided as the Dark Angles, the Space Wolves, who's Legion was only divided once in very blatant disregard to the edicts of the Lords of Terra. Apparently nobody ever felt the desire to call them on it. :P

 

The 100,000 Terran Dark Angels adopting Calibanite customs like ducklings taking to water is about as realistic as the Dutch going to the World Cup in South Africa wearing their orange and coming back home wearing South African colors and speaking English with a South African accent. It's just not going to happen. :P

 

There was no cultural immersion for the Legion. The Legion didn't arrive on Caliban and then spend decades there "going native". The Legion stopped off at Caliban for a short time, and then the bulk of it continued on with the Crusade, leaving only a token force behind for recruiting/garrison duties. The token force left behind surely could have adopted a bit more Calibanite culture, but they also happened to absorb a whole bunch of other ideas(i.e. Luther's ideas) too. Guess what happened to those guys? ;)

 

Very slight allusions to knightly traditions would be okay, mostly in the way the fighting style of circles within circles(as marines from any background will be interested in any new fighting techniques/styles, Terran or not). What I would really like to see more of is information on the reclamation of The Rock and its development into what it came to be, but also information as to how the in the aftermath of the Treachery and destruction of Caliban the remaining Dark Angels HQs began to reform the Legion in its newer image. Who exactly were these very important founders who picked up the pieces of a shattered Legion and reforged them into a new Legion with a different mindset? Info on some of these very important, formative figures would be really interesting. Perhaps that would be better handled in a novel though.

[Marshal Rohr]

I've always been a fan of the Dark Angels being a secret legion. If they were they'd outnumber the Templars by several orders of magnitude.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

The 100,000 Terran Dark Angels adopting Calibanite customs like ducklings taking to water is about as realistic as the Dutch going to the World Cup in South Africa wearing their orange and coming back home wearing South African colors and speaking English with a South African accent. It's just not going to happen. :P

 

Very slight allusions to knightly traditions would be okay, mostly in the way the fighting style of circles within circles(as marines from any background will be interested in any new fighting techniques/styles, Terran or not). What I would really like to see more of is information on the reclamation of The Rock and its development into what it came to be, but also information as to how the in the aftermath of the Treachery and destruction of Caliban the remaining Dark Angels HQs began to reform the Legion in its newer image. Who exactly were these very important founders who picked up the pieces of a shattered Legion and reforged them into a new Legion with a different mindset? Info on some of these very important, formative figures would be really interesting. Perhaps that would be better handled in a novel though.

 

I agree with almost all of this, except, the 100,000 terran marines, which is not actually stated. It is said that there is over 22 chapters, wether or not that means we suddenly have 100,000 terrans and 220,000 Calibanites, well, who knows?

 

Personally, I think there was less than 100,000 marines when the DA reached Caliban, because, well, the Emp didnt have 2 million Astartes...

[Candleshoes]

The 100,000 Terran Dark Angels adopting Calibanite customs like ducklings taking to water is about as realistic as the Dutch going to the World Cup in South Africa wearing their orange and coming back home wearing South African colors and speaking English with a South African accent. It's just not going to happen. :P

 

There was no cultural immersion for the Legion.

 

Yet there seemed to be no qualms with that happening to hundreds of thousands of Terran marines that became the White Scars, Space Wolves, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Ultramarines, Word Bearers, World Eaters (through custom, rather than culture), Salamanders, and Thousand Sons.

 

Seems a little cynical to think that the 1st Legion was impervious to influence from their adopted homeworld, but the majority of their peer Legions have no problem with adopting the culture whole-heartedly in the handful of decades they are part of the Great Crusade, be it steppe plains-warrior, nautical viking tribes, death-hive gangers, independent pirates, roman-esque imperialists, religious warriors, peerless gladitorial brotherhood, master forgers, or master scholars.

 

As Droma pointed out:

 

"You may look down in dismay at the heritage of Caliban, but it is your home now. Its people will be your people. it is the world of the Lion, and his traditions shall be the traditions of the Dark Angels. It is by his judgment that I mark my worth, not by yours."

 

If Caliban wasn't a factor of import, 40k Dark Angels would not be green, the Rock would not need to exist, the post Heresy Terrans would never have mentioned Caliban at all to their progeney (there would be no need for circles within circles when lies are all that is needed), and they would not likely seek redemption for their souls, as it was Caliban and it's sons that were disgraced, not the first legion.

 

As for the soccer example, the Lion helmed their team for more victories than any other, save the Warmaster, while leading them. Do you honestly think that they were still wearing their "We Heart Big E" jerseys during that, or had they put on their new soccer club sweaters that read "Papa Lion for the Win"? I always looked at it more like a new franchise, they are reunited with their true leader, and their true greatness is made from then on, the whole reason why they were created in the first place. Forced integration and simply the Lion being who he is, would be more than enough to un-terran the terrans, much like the list above of other culture-adopting Legions.

[Brother Degas]

I agree with the legion idea, its kind of epic that the DA are this massive battle force waiting for their primarch to return before reuniting and heading off on some major ass kicking!!

 

Also, I think you might have the caliban influence a bit backwards. Yes the legion was influenced by the calibanite marines but not because of the way everyone is saying x number of marines changing the habits of x number of other marines.

 

Each chapter is influenced by the primarch, e.g. magnus' spiral and hunger for knowledge, gullimans noblity etc etc who were each shaped by their respective upbringings. The lion is slightly different in that he was alone so survival was his early goal, which echos the end justifies the means point raised earlier. He was also influenced by Luther and the order with regard to traditions etc but he also changed them into a more effective fighting force.

 

So, when he took over the legion he altered it based on his own ideals so it reflected the order he had created but on a much larger scale. The calibanite marines were just more used to it.

 

Hope that ramble makes sense.

 

oh, Id also like to see cypher developed a bit, is he a traitor or on a secret mission for the lion.....

[shabbadoo]

Double post.

[shabbadoo]

As for the soccer example, the Lion helmed their team for more victories than any other, save the Warmaster, while leading them. Do you honestly think that they were still wearing their "We Heart Big E" jerseys during that, or had they put on their new soccer club sweaters that read "Papa Lion for the Win"? I always looked at it more like a new franchise, they are reunited with their true leader, and their true greatness is made from then on, the whole reason why they were created in the first place. Forced integration and simply the Lion being who he is, would be more than enough to un-terran the terrans, much like the list above of other culture-adopting Legions.

 

You misunderstand. The jerseys would read "Go Terran Culture!" and "Go Calibanite Culture!" There is no issue with the Legion gravitating towards their Primarch at all. It's like gravitating towards a friend who hangs out with a bunch of douche bags, and then...

 

Calibanites: Hey you Terrans! We are superior to you. You should be like us and adopt our ways.

 

Terrans: We are rather set in our ways already. Besides, the Primarch is not a douche bag like you guys are. W'ed rather be like him than you. Perhaps you should be like him too, meaning not be douche bags.

 

Calibanites: Well, he was raised in our culture and is product of it.

 

Terrans: And yet he is not a douche bag. And, because your culture was so screwed up, the Lion was needed to work towards changing it by actually accomplishing what your sad sacks of orders couldn't in centuries, due to your backwards ways. Too bad the end result of that couldn't take a bit more effect before we found you. So, excuse us if we prefer to adopt which of your ways that the Lion himself deemed fit to adopt himself. I think we'll listen to him, and emulate him, not you. Your planet's cool though.

 

Call me a cynical Terran Dark Angel. :o

 

As to the quote:

 

Belath: "You may look down in dismay at the heritage of Caliban, but it is your home now. Its people will be your people. it is the world of the Lion, and his traditions shall be the traditions of the Dark Angels. It is by his judgment that I mark my worth, not by yours."

 

Ka-BOOOM!!!

Belath: "Okay. Well, you got taste of it at least. Damn. Not even a half generation of influence,an with most of you guys out on the Crusade and not experiencing it first hand anyways. Well, you're going to hear about the place at least! The good parts that is."

 

Still, I'd like to see some examples of what influence this Calibanite culture would have.

[Mattias]

The 100,000 Terran Dark Angels adopting Calibanite customs like ducklings taking to water is about as realistic as the Dutch going to the World Cup in South Africa wearing their orange and coming back home wearing South African colors and speaking English with a South African accent. It's just not going to happen.

 

There was no cultural immersion for the Legion.

 

You continue to miss the point, the background sources show that marines from the Primarch's homeworlds made up the majority of the Legions by the time of the heresy as a result of initial recruitment when the Primarch's were found as well as the ongoing recruitment over the course of the Crusade in order to replace casualties and increase the Legion sizes. If you read the Horus Heresy books Garro and the 'Half-Heard' have become the exceptions rather than the norm in originating from Terra.

 

In the case of the Dark Angels there was the initial recruitment of the knightly orders on first contact followed by over fifty years of continuing recruitment, resulting in a massive influx (tens of thousands) of Calibanite marines into the Legion.

 

If we must use your football analogy then it is equivalent to a new manager/strip being adopted by the team and then over the course of fifty years of people moving into the area or growing old enough to develop an interest in football the majority of supporters are likely to identify with the new manager/strip and even those who remember the old traditions are likely to have become influenced by the new traditions due to the experience of fifty years.

 

Also please stop with the made up conversations, they really don't add weight to your opinions.

 

On another note having read through this thread I think that one of the reasons that people are divided on whether the Dark Angels are influenced by knightly traditions is that different people seem to have very different concepts of what being a knight involves. On the one hand there are those who view it in the romantic/hollywood sense of tournaments/damsels/honour/purity which I would agree does not seem to match the darker tone of the Dark Angels. On the other hand is the more historical view, where knights were ruthless warriors who didn't flinch from acts that seem appalling to modern sensibilities and whose chivalry extended only to their social equals (and not always then) but who were bound through oaths and obligations to their lords.

 

If you conjure up the image of knights on the march conducting a Chevauchée http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevauch%C3%A9e, then perhaps it will strike a chord when you compare it to the Lion's ruthless use of civilians to lure an enemy out to fight him on his terms that resulted in Astellan being disgraced.

[Octavulg]

The secret legion thing is fun for the DA, not as much for everyone who plays a successor or whatever. :whoops:

 

Frankly, even if the DA think they're a secret legion, I don't think they are. Right now, they have the Fallen to unify them. That's pretty much it. Otherwise, they're spread around the galaxy and have countless demands on their time and varying opinions and needs. If the Fallen were to disappear, I think there would swiftly be a lot of division in the DA ranks. They agree on a course of action because there's a grand unifying threat in the form of the Fallen and the secret of their existence. Without that, they are distinct enough I could certainly see problems.

 

Personally, I think the thing to emphasize is their monastic nature. Emphasize how nobody is ever entirely certain what's going on, the strict-and-yet-not-strict hierarchy, the countless circles, the obedience. The DA are monastic knights, not chivalric knights or romantic knights. The Vamky Brotherhood in Dave Duncan's Impossible Odds, basically.

 

Mentioning their wars with the Space Wolves would also be nice.

 

The fluff should also try and move beyond the Fallen - not in regard to motivation, but in regard to personality. The Fallen has no doubt consumed the DA's time and thinking, but there are still other aspects to them that deserve exploration.

 

Oh, and they'd emphasize firepower more, for tactical flexibility, because engaging mighty beasts in hand-to-hand when you don't have to is dumb, and because it's the last remaining niche in SM codices. And there would be good and powerful reasons for it in the fluff.

[ODM]

The secret legion thing is fun for the DA, not as much for everyone who plays a successor or whatever. :D

 

Frankly, even if the DA think they're a secret legion, I don't think they are. Right now, they have the Fallen to unify them. That's pretty much it. Otherwise, they're spread around the galaxy and have countless demands on their time and varying opinions and needs. If the Fallen were to disappear, I think there would swiftly be a lot of division in the DA ranks. They agree on a course of action because there's a grand unifying threat in the form of the Fallen and the secret of their existence. Without that, they are distinct enough I could certainly see problems.

 

Personally, I think the thing to emphasize is their monastic nature. Emphasize how nobody is ever entirely certain what's going on, the strict-and-yet-not-strict hierarchy, the countless circles, the obedience. The DA are monastic knights, not chivalric knights or romantic knights. The Vamky Brotherhood in Dave Duncan's Impossible Odds, basically.

 

Mentioning their wars with the Space Wolves would also be nice.

 

The fluff should also try and move beyond the Fallen - not in regard to motivation, but in regard to personality. The Fallen has no doubt consumed the DA's time and thinking, but there are still other aspects to them that deserve exploration.

 

Oh, and they'd emphasize firepower more, for tactical flexibility, because engaging mighty beasts in hand-to-hand when you don't have to is dumb, and because it's the last remaining niche in SM codices. And there would be good and powerful reasons for it in the fluff.

 

I guess I tend to agree with you about the Hunt for the Fallen holding them together, but that's the point. The Hunt is never going to end. It will always be the glue that holds them together, with the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels at the top. From what I can tell there are at least 8000 (the 7 chapters from the codex and the Angels of Vigilence) marines in just the official successor chapters under Azrael's ultimate command.

 

I might take this into it's own thread as I've been thinking about it for a while and don't want to derail this one.

 

I also agree about the monastic nature, warrior monks seems to be the visual niche, and with the circles within circles.

[shabbadoo]

It would be good to know what year Caliban was found by the Emperor, and what year Caliban was destroyed.

[shabbadoo]

It would be good to know what year Caliban was found by the Emperor, and what year Caliban was destroyed, so as to assess the effect of recruits and influence.

 

I guess I tend to agree with you about the Hunt for the Fallen holding them together, but that's the point. The Hunt is never going to end. It will always be the glue that holds them together, with the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels at the top. From what I can tell there are at least 8000 (the 7 chapters from the codex and the Angels of Vigilance) marines in just the official successor chapters under Azrael's ultimate command.

Many more than that. A Chapter is not just 1,000 marines. The basic squads of the 1st-9th Companies totals 900 marines, and the 10th Company usually has as many as 200. This doesn't include command staff and support staff that are also marines- command squad vets, techmarines, apothecaries, chaplains, librarians, company masters, vehicle crew, Chapter fleet personnel, any other marines that are a part of the Inner Circle and not accounted for elsewhere, the handful of marines sent off to serve in the Deathwatch, etc. All told, each Chapter probably has closer to 1,300 marines. Multiply that by 8 and you have 10,400 marines.

 

Oh, and they'd emphasize firepower more, for tactical flexibility, because engaging mighty beasts in hand-to-hand when you don't have to is dumb, and because it's the last remaining niche in SM codices. And there would be good and powerful reasons for it in the fluff.

What reasons would those be? That every single one of the Calibanite orders liked to fight the beasts in close combat? The Lion himself being famed for taking out the worst beast of all on Caliban- a Calibanite Lion, and not from range? That the Chapter engages in all sorts of combat, from entrenched firefights to gritty assaults, as does any other Chapter? I guess we can pick and choose/ignore whatever we want to, just to suit an agenda though, but I don't think it is a good idea to do so. The shooty(albeit close range shooty) Salamanders stupidly hunt beasts too, as do the pace Wolves. There really is no shooty niche uncovered. The Salamanders have close range shooty specialists and the Space Wolves(oddly enough) have long range shooty specialists. Various Chapters have assault specialists. The Dark Angels have their specialists in DW and RW, but the DA don't really grossly favor any particular phase of the game over another. RW certainly do better at range than in assault, but that can be said of most bike units in the game. Like most Chapters, even those with specialists that favor something over the other, DA can do it all. It's a hallmark of Space Marines in general to be able to do everything well.