Fluff in a new DA codex

[Octavulg]

The Salamanders hunted beasts to prove how tough they were, as do the Wolves. The Dark Angels hunted beasts to protect people and keep from dying. There would, I think, be a difference in strategy.

 

Furthermore, as always, no one said "only shoot". No one ever said that. No one ever will say that. And, at this point, if you think anyone has said that, you are wrong, if only because you've been told no one meant that innumerable times.

 

The simple fact is that the DA have no real defined strategic or tactical style, and the ones the fluff leans toward generally are firmly occupied by other chapters. So giving them their own niche makes sense. There is some logical precedent for shootiness: the Space Wolves like CC, and the DA often oppose them on sheer principle. Increased access to plasma was once a defining feature. Shooting is, arguably, more tactically flexible than running forward and hitting people (it's certainly easier to switch targets in a pinch).

 

This continual insistence that the DA should basically be C:SM is exactly what keeps the DA as basically being C:SM with more Terminators and (sometimes) Bikes. That is a bad thing. It makes us less interesting and unique, and that makes us less salable. Which greatly increases the chances of us being eliminated.

[ODM]

Well, I started to put together a little piece on why the Dark Angels still function as the only Space Marine Legion.

 

 

After the Horus Heresy, all the Legions were ordered to be broken down into Chapters. One would retain the original Legion’s name, and the rest would become new Chapters in their own right. This reorganization became known as the Second Founding.

 

During M31, the Second Founding, the Dark Angels reorganized into at least 5 Chapters, the Dark Angels, the Angels of Vengeance, the Angels of Absolution, the Angels of Redemption, and (it is assumed) the Angels of Vigilance. It is assumed that additional Chapters were created, and still exist, but their links are not recorded. All the Chapters of Dark Angel heritage collectively call themselves the Unforgiven. The Guardians of the Covenant and Consecrators have been confirmed as Unforgiven Chapters, although the timing of their creation is unknown, with the Consecrators only appearing in Imperial records in M41. The Disciples of Caliban were created in M37 at the behest of the Dark Angels’ Supreme Grand Master.

 

Therefore, at the end of M41, there are 8 identified Chapters of the Unforgiven, or roughly 8,000 – 10,000 marines. This number could escalate to upwards drastically depending on how many unrecognized Unforgiven Chapters there are. All of these Successor Chapters are united in their Hunt for the Fallen, and each is organized along similar lines, both in terms of Company makeup, and circles of knowledge, with an Inner Circle headed by the Chapter’s Supreme Grand Master.

 

These Grand Masters are frequently seen on the Rock, the Dark Angels’ Fortress Monastery, as they visit for summit meetings to consult and coordinate their efforts. The Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels, currently Azrael, sits at the head of the Inner Circle and is master to all the other Supreme Grand Masters of the Unforgiven. From this position he orchestrates the Hunt across the Chapters, explaining why many of the Unforgiven Chapters have been recorded fighting side by side, in joint strike forces when the Fallen are involved expected.

 

Azrael is master to at least 8 Chapters of marines, coordinating and planning their activities as they Hunt the Fallen and seek to wipe them from the Imperium. The Dark Angels are the last true Legion of Space Marines.

[Candleshoes]

@shabbadoo

 

2nd ED days spelled out the DA heritage in the 40k era debate clearly.

 

The Rock itself does not stay in any one place for very long, at most for only a few generations. As a result the Dark Angels do not recruit from any one planet. It is for this reason that the order needs such strict levels of admission and rigorous tests of loyalty. The masters of the order have to make sure that all those who come to the Chapter become true Dark Angels. As the members of the order come from such a mixed variety of backgrounds.

 

The Dark Angels rely on their heritage for their sense of camaraderie. Once a prospective Space Marine has passed through all the appropriate levels, only then can he be considered a true Dark Angel. For then he will be driven by the same shame and secret purpose that has driven all Dark Angels since the death of Caliban; to hunt our every last one of the Fallen and reclaim the honour of the Chapter.

[shabbadoo]

The Salamanders hunted beasts to prove how tough they were, as do the Wolves. The Dark Angels hunted beasts to protect people and keep from dying.

No. Hunting a beast was a right of passage to becoming a knight, similar to a Fenrisian or Vulcanian. Other than that, whenever a beast would terrorize an area, then a knight would volunteer to quest after the beast. If it proved to be a particularly vicious beast, multiple knights would undertake the quest. Otherwise, the cunning beasts would only be killed when a knight or knights happened upon one. It was only after Lion created the Order and banded together the other orders that they actively hunted the beasts according to a plan, and yet, even then, killing a beast was still a right of passage for becoming a knight of the Order too. If you want a reference for that then read the story of Sar Zariel becoming a knight of the Order under Lion, who has to prove his worth by going off and killing something. Then Lion

congratulates him on it. It's all there. Yes, it is rather for the same reason that the Fenrisian/Vulcanian in its entirety, just with a slightly different reason attached to doing it. Tough, worthy, manly. The reasons all boil down to doing exactly the same thing to prove exactly the same thing- how badarsed somebody is.

 

The reference to "the order" is a good one. Very low key, but combined with the other things it shows the Chapter(and most of the Successors likely) as a penitent order. Kind of interesting that it also eludes to only those of the Deathwing and higher as "true" Dark Angels. That level of separation within the Chapter could be gone into a bit more. It's the "heritage" bit that hasn't really been touched on in any codexes...yet. Perhaps we'll actually see a glimpse of it in another Horus Heresy book covering the destruction of Caliban and who takes over the Legion afterwards.

[Octavulg]

The Fenrisians and Nocturnians don't wander off and kill the ferocious beasts in question outside of proving their manhood (or, at least, not much). The Dark Angels launched a coordinated campaign to eradicate theirs.

 

That's a pretty big difference.

 

The first is about a one-on-one contest between man and beast, concerned with aspects like honor and suchlike. The second is about killing the beasts, first and foremost. The two would lead to and demonstrate different attitudes and reward different methods.

 

Also, allow me to quote you: "Lion didn't change the other knightly orders- he marginalized them. How? By making the Order not about the glory and edification of its members, but by actually doing what they were supposed to do- protect the people."

 

You also claim the DA aren't knights in that same post, IIRC. Will you be taking a consistent position soon?

[Captain Semper]

The debate of how much the original legion was influnced by Caliban tradition is largely irrelevant in the context of how DAs look and operate in 40k. Caliban traditions represent all the bad things about DAs (as they see themselves now). The remnants of knightly orders were the ones that corrupted Luther. Luther in turn becomes the advocate of Caliban traditions and values to the point he defies the Lion. The loyal DA destroy Caliban!!!

 

After the HH and the re-arrangement of the Legion into Chapters with Inner and Outer Circles, Deathwing etc. they set themselves a pupose to hunt the fallen. Although examples of prominent Terran fallen exist (Astelan) it is my understanding that they are predominantely Calibanite (since Luther's job was to recruit from that planet). So does it make sense that after all this the post HH DAs high command said: "wait a minute, we should actually upkeep the traditions of Caliban" - I don't thing so. DAs of 40k are hunters of fallen - this is their ultimate service to the Emperor and this put them firmly on the Imperium camp. DAs is the only loyal Legiom that emerged from the Heresy completely transformed internally (without counting the of course the implementation of the Codex Astartes). Trying to identify DA with their original homeworld (from which no DA currenly originates from) in the same way as say SWs is just wrong. If anything they should shun the traditions of Caliban as something evil - something that helped bring on the Fall.

 

As far as the sinlge Legion theme goes (i.e. all the chapters being interconnected and still see themselves as one legion) I think it's great!!! More please! I do play a successor and have no problem with this! It is clearly mentioned the current Codex and it can be further explored in the future. In fact through this line of background it would be possible to flesh out the successors even more!!!

 

@ shabbadoo: These dialogues in your posts are very funny ;) !!! You sould write a booklet named: "DA history for beginners" or "What you always wanted to know about DA and were afraid to ask"!!! Keep it up!

[shabbadoo]

The Fenrisians and Nocturnians don't wander off and kill the ferocious beasts in question outside of proving their manhood (or, at least, not much). The Dark Angels launched a coordinated campaign to eradicate theirs.

 

That's a pretty big difference.

Still persisting in this. The campaign to eradicate the beasts of Caliban was all but completed before the arrival of the Imperium, meaning that the beasts on Caliban were all but dead by the time the Dark Angels got there. Specifically, Lion and representatives from all ranks of the Order were out and about on the final beast hunt when they encountered the Imperium for the first time. So, no Dark Angel ever hunted a beast on Caliban. Read Descent of Angels, in particular the bits on Sar Zariel, as the book covers his journey from novice to knight. It also mentions two of his three friends having finally taken their own beasts and so becoming knights. Calibanites just couch it in fancy terms, but the killing of a beast is a warrior rite in very much the same way as it is for those from Fenris and Vulcan. Read page 255 in particular, as it shows that the Imperials influenced Caliban far more than the other way around. It is mentioned elsewhere that the similarities between the structure of the Order and the Astartes was seen as a point of amusement by both groups. Not a lot of need for change between similar things.

 

Also, Lion marginalized the other orders by actually creating one that did what the knightly orders were supposed to do. Many of the knights of other orders left to join the Order. Yes, I'd say that a fledgling order that eclipses all others that had been around for centuries kind of...um...marginalizes them by showing that their division led to ineffectualness, and by accomplishing their ultimate goal in 10 short years compared to the centuries of enduring terror from the beasts under the other orders. Perhaps you think I mean that Lion marginalized being a knight at all. That is clearly not what I mean. I also mean that Lion marginalized the other orders by throwing their hubris in their face. All but the Knights of Lupus came around in the end, especially when the Order began to achieve the kinds of results it did. Think on why no unified effort was ever put forth by the orders before Lion and you'll see what I mean about marginalization. "Hey you dumbarses! Look what the Order can do because we are not idiots. Will you continue to suck, or will be adopt a new way of thinking that will truly help the people of Caliban- cooperation?" Only one order didn't finally come to the conclusion, "Wow. Perhaps we do suck. Perhaps this is a good idea.", but that one order had its own motives as we find out. Yes, Lion(and the Order) very much marginalized the other orders. Later on, the other orders were abolished and brought under the control of the 1st Legion at the direction of Lion and the Legion.

 

And I didn't say that Dark Angels are not knights, just that they are not noticeably more so that any other Chapter already is(see the previous note on the amusement seen at the similarities between the the Order and the Astartes). I have previously mentioned this a few times, so have been rather consistent in this.

 

I'm not really against some slight knight stuff still creeping in, but I think it should be done in way that isn't cheesed out, or alters the Chapter in any way. I like the whole dark image of the Chapter. The swords and circles thing of Caliban is certainly in the background already, but only barely. That could be expanded upon a little bit. The whole close combat aspect of Caliban was left in the dust, so much so that some believe the Dark Angels are the "shooty" Chapter. Because that's what knights do- shoot stuff dead safely from as far away as they can possibly be. The Valour. The Gallantry. The Majesty. Of the very knightly Dark Angels. :lol: If the Dark Angels truly were all about Caliban culture like some say they are(which they clearly are not) or should be, you'd see every Dark Angels marine armed with power armor, chainsword, and bolt pistol, the traditional weapons of the knightly orders of Caliban. If they were, the Dark Angles would be a Chapter that clearly favored Assault, and yet that is not what they have ever been.

 

What little information we've got to go on so far, combined with the form the Chapter has taken in the codexes, leads to the conclusion that much that was definitive of Caliban was left behind. Otherwise the Chapter would take to the field of battle in a much different way than they always have.

 

So, here's the problem- at this point we really don't know that much about the early formative heritage of the Legion post Caliban. We've got the Order, circles(both for fighting and command), swords, and even mention of "Ravenwing" as scouts for the Order(these are not the DA RW though, as the Imperium hasn't showed up yet). I think the form that the Chapter has always had is the biggest problem when talking about anything related to Caliban, as it is so different from it. Poster Caliban info will be the most interesting to me. Just who did take the Chapter in its ultimate direction, which left most things Caliban behind, and altered the Imperial standard as well. I think that would make for the most interesting reading in a new new codex fluff section.

 

@ shabbadoo: These dialogues in your posts are very funny ;) !!! You sould write a booklet named: "DA history for beginners" or "What you always wanted to know about DA and were afraid to ask"!!! Keep it up!

The Astellan one is the best I think(it's lurking somewhere here).

 

As to your points, I agree. I'm a bit off on a few things, but I remembered more things correctly than not. The Imperials didn't terraform Caliban- they Terraformed it. By that I mean culturally. This occurred to the extent that Imperial tales began to supplant Caliban folk tales in just a matter of years. The speed of this cultural transformation is very specifically remarked upon in Descent of Angels. So, I remembered that dead on at least.

 

Here's another quote which is counter to a previous one, and that is in line with the current DA indoctrination:

 

'I remember it(the Verbatim)." said Nemiel, his face suddenly growing stern. 'But you need to remember we are no longer in the Order. All that is behind us. The old ways are dead. I'm serious. They died the day the Emperor came to Caliban and we learned of the Lion's true nature. From that moment on, we became Dark Angels and we put the past behind us.'

[Arioch]

Stop being racists to people from Caliban! (sorry had to say it ;) )

 

So what all of a sudden the chapter holds no traditions from Caliban? What? Where do you think we got our robes from? Our inner circle, the ravenwing, the heraldy on our terminators? All our secret rites, the entire system of keeping secrets hidden from the unworthy, it all comes from Caliban. In every other legion we have seen that the traditions of the primarchs homeworld was merged with that of the legion, so why would the Dark Angels be any exeption? Even the name of the legion "Dark Angels" comes from an ancient myth of Caliban. The Dark Angels of the 41. millenium share this heritage, as they share some form of the knightly heritage that came from that. Yes they destroyed Caliban, but they build their seat of power on the remains of it! There is no proof of the DA shunning the traditions of Caliban and the Order, in fact with their primarch gone, it was all they had left to build on.

 

There is also nothing that suggest that the Lion hated Caliban or its people. He sent some back, yes, but there where also terrans among them (Astelan, Israfael). The reason behind it is still unknown anyway. In the latest HH book, the Dark Angels is portrayed very knigthly, Caliban as a feudal world, just a hundred times worse than the actual medival times. The Lion is called "a knight" and the heroes shown uses the sword as their foremost weapon.

 

Im also still not buying that the Dark Angels favors the gun.

Other stories does nothing to suggest that the Dark Angels should be particularly empathised on shooting. In "Decent of Angels" the hero Zahariel slays a monster with pistol and sword. Latter as a spacemarine, the Lion and his men engages a demon of chaos in close combat, until it can be destroyed with a psychic attack. In "Fallen Angels" the figthing is done as much with shooting as with the blade. In the final fight they charge their enemy (although these are afterwards eliminated by a huge warmachine). In "The purging of Kadillus" Boreas simply states "Shock assault brother, that is what we do best". I would agree with this.

 

But what I really wanted to say is: The Dark Angels are knigthly in aspect. That is why we have Grand Masters and a Supreme Grand master, much like the (reallife)Templars had it. The Rock is pretty much a floating Mont saint Michel in space, or a Krak de Chevallier (sorry with the spelling I dont know anything about french). But the Da are never the straigthforeward, easy recognisable knigths, like the Templars for instance, they hold many other aspects which makes it hard to find any solid "archtype" at all.

 

Anyways Im also pro-legion, we all know that we are not the lapdogs of Guilliman :D

[Octavulg]

Everybody charges in the Black Library, Arioch.

[Brother Degas]

isnt the temple of angels on the rock and sealed? surely that indicates some kind of reverence?

[Candleshoes]

The remnants of knightly orders were the ones that corrupted Luther. Luther in turn becomes the advocate of Caliban traditions and values to the point he defies the Lion...Trying to identify DA with their original homeworld (from which no DA currenly originates from) in the same way as say SWs is just wrong. If anything they should shun the traditions of Caliban as something evil - something that helped bring on the Fall.

 

The orders never corrupted Luther, saying so is a generalization at best, nor are they evil. Caliban heritage is not corrupting or evil either. If you read Fallen Angels, Luther's reason for breaking fealty to the Lion is a lot more complicated and a lot more desperate than being an advocate of Caliban.

 

You also seem to forget that no Dark Angel, from 30,000k to 40,000k was born from consistent homeworlds. From when the Lion Falls, to the current timeline, the only consistency, the only glue holding them together were the traditions that the Lion had installed within them and left them with after his passing. They leave all backgrounds to become part of a 10,000 year tradition that has never changed, except in the case of the Deathwing, which happened thousands of years after Caliban was destroyed.

 

Why would the immediate post Heresy loyalist DA shun Calabanite traditions? A massive portion of them were former order members, firmly loyal to the Lion as well as their home. You mention that it was the DA loyalist destroy Caliban, and why wouldn't they even if the majority of them were from Caliban, for who would want to see their home so perversely desecrated by a traitor. Here is something from Codex: Angels of Death, 2nd Edition, page 12:

 

Caliban was made the home world of the Dark Angels and the whole of the Order moved to join its ranks. Those knights who were still young enough had the Legion's gene-seed implanted within them, while those too old for this process underwent surgery to transform them into elite warriors of the Imperium.

 

Those are the traditions of the Lion, as well as Luther, and it was all that remained for the survivors of the event. It was the pre-determined strength and oath-bound secrecy and that allowed them to endure the hardships and seek redemption for 10,000 years. They continued to live exactly how they always had, but rather than pursuiting splintered human worlds, they now sought vengeance on the Fallen.

 

"wait a minute, we should actually upkeep the traditions of Caliban" - I don't think so.

 

How did they not keep their traditions? All Dark Angels are exactly that, Dark Angels, and they have been since the Lion's fall. They continue on in the way that the Lion taught them, fighting in the manner he taught them. Supreme Grand Master Azrael does not consider himself born a head-hunter of Kimmeria and feel pride in it, nor can he relate to someone born in a backward gulch-desert world, none of it matters since the day he passed his trials and chose to give up everything about his past in order to become a son of the Lion, he who once called Caliban home.

 

Also remember that the majority of 40k Dark Angels do not know who Luther is, do not know how Caliban was destroyed, do not know of how it's people came to be tied in a web of lies, do not know the majority of their own Legion's past, save stories and traditions they learn as they grow through the ranks. There is no reason the post heresy loyalists didn't preserve the best things of their own past, and ensure that the future of the Legion received them as well.

 

There is no proof of the DA shunning the traditions of Caliban and the Order, in fact with their primarch gone, it was all they had left to build on.

 

This. The proof is in the pudding.

 

*edit Also, anyone notice the parallel between: how the Order was the only martial brotherhood on Caliban who accepted members based on work and merit, rather than blood, lineage and heritage. The poorest of the poor had just as much of an equal chance, as a wealthy noble son. With Caliban destroyed, and the lineage with it, it seems this same value applies to the diversity of applicants accepted from so many recruitment worlds. When you become a Dark Angel, much like a member of the Order, you accept it body and soul and leave your past at the door.

 

*edit It has long been understood that Death-worlds are given leave and immunity against taxation by the Imperium, be it through monetary values or trade supplies. Normally, the only item of value on the world that can be readied for acquisition is an agreement by the inhabitants to give up their sons for active service to either the IG or the Astartes. Caliban being a Legion homeworld... why on earth were there facilities and industrial plants placed on practically sacred and legally bound ground? It really is a decent question to ask, as this is one of the main fire starters for the calibanite-heresy.

[Bryan Blaire]

Also, a "shock assault" does not necessarily refer to a hand-to-hand combat, but can be more like a blitzkrieg style attack using speed and shock to tactically push the enemy off balance and protect their flanks by completely pushing through/past an enemy position rather than having to take specific flank protecting actions. Given what Boreas et al do, that seems a more likely interpretation of Boreas's comment than "heroic charges into the enemy with melée weapons when they aren't expecting it!" The tactics may include hand to hand combat, but that is not the defining aspect of the combat.

 

It is also a common Space Marine combat methodology, and not really anything uniquely DA.

[ODM]

As far as the sinlge Legion theme goes (i.e. all the chapters being interconnected and still see themselves as one legion) I think it's great!!! More please! I do play a successor and have no problem with this! It is clearly mentioned the current Codex and it can be further explored in the future. In fact through this line of background it would be possible to flesh out the successors even more!!!

 

Agreed completely. I'm looking over the 3rd Vraks campaign book, as it goes into the mechanics of the successor relationship a little more in depth.

 

As for Successor players not liking it, I'm not not so sure. Presumably it's already accepted that if you play an Unforgiven Chapter, Azrael is the Supreme Supreme. If you don't, then you're skipping parts of the fluff already, so new stuff along the same lines should be just as easy to ignore? And I would think just as many play successors as an extreme part of the DA psyche, kind of how they're described in the codex, and like the tie to the DA? All conjecture on my part I guess.

 

For the DA of today, I would think that the short stories and novels set in the 40k timeline would be the best examples. Purge of Kalidus is as recent as they come, and AoD was rereleased last year, so the knightly-ness, or lack of, displayed in it is probably a good representation of where the Chapter is now. There's very little talk or hint of knightly-ness beyond what you might find elsewhere, i.e. all marines are knghtly. I think the secrecy and ruthlessness as marines are indoctrinated further into the inner circle is where GW will take them.

[Octavulg]

Except what Azrael being supreme means varies depending on who you ask - is he first among equals? Does he just direct the hunt for the Fallen? How much does he direct it? How much voice do the other GMs have? Personally, I don't think they're a legion, if only because they're too spread out for it to be practical. Azrael's a lot closer to the Holy Roman Emperor than the Roman Emperor.

 

That sort of thing. I think it'd be a lot more interesting to have that answer vary depending on who you ask in the DA and their successors than it would be to just have them be a legion with the serial numbers filed off.

[ODM]

Here's a little synopsis of how the Dark Angel/Successor relationship played itself out on Vraks.

 

At the final stages of the war, the Dark Angels were unavailable for a mission to capture a Fallen commander that they had missed out on capturing 9 years before. Azrael turned to the Angels of Absolution and they took the mission in place of the Dark Angels. An Interrogator Chaplain from the Dark Angels was attached to the mission, which was under the command of an Angels of Absolution 1st Company Master and included roughly 3 companies of marines plus armored support.

 

The seige and final assault was under Inquisitorial command, but the Unforgiven commanders had orders from their respective Grand Masters to demand they be allowed to return any captured Chaos legionaires to the Rock for interrogation, otherwise they would withdraw their forces. Eventually the Inquisition agreed to hand over all captured Chaos marines to the Unforgiven and the strikeforce joined the assault. The Unforgiven Strikefore fought in the assault then immediately withdrew with their prize. The Fallen warband leader, and another 15 Chaos Legionaires, were captured and returned to the Rock.

 

It's a pretty detailed story reminscient of the ones in the codex. But it has a few extra details. Azrael and the Dark Angels began the Hunt for this particular Fallen 9 years before. They lost him and withdrew with their other objectives met, but kept intelligence reports on the Vraks progress for a decade. At the right time, Azrael sends a large Successor Chapter force to capture one of the Fallen. He also attaches one of his Interrogator-Chaplains along, who actually assumes control of the force when the Angels of Absolution's 1st Company Master is killed. Once the Fallen is captured, the Chaplain withdraws the entire Angels of Absolution strikeforce along with their prize, who is returned to the Rock.

 

Along with some of the blurbs in the codex, this makes a pretty good case that in their Hunt for the Fallen at least, Azrael is utilizing the multiple Chapters of the Unforgiven as a Legion.

[ODM]

Except what Azrael being supreme means varies depending on who you ask - is he first among equals? Does he just direct the hunt for the Fallen? How much does he direct it? How much voice do the other GMs have? Personally, I don't think they're a legion, if only because they're too spread out for it to be practical. Azrael's a lot closer to the Holy Roman Emperor than the Roman Emperor.

 

That sort of thing. I think it'd be a lot more interesting to have that answer vary depending on who you ask in the DA and their successors than it would be to just have them be a legion with the serial numbers filed off.

What the codex says is that he is master even over the other grand masters and that he orchestrates the Hunt for the Fallen. Read into that what you will.

 

In my opinion, it's one of the most interesting things about the DA, and virtually the only thing that hasn't been eroded away somewhere else. Every other aspect of the Chapter is at least shared by another Chapter.

 

The fluff that makes us unique is the Hunt for the Fallen and the fact that the DA Grand Master is master to all the Unforgiven. These are the things I think they need to play up.

[Captain Semper]

The remnants of knightly orders were the ones that corrupted Luther. Luther in turn becomes the advocate of Caliban traditions and values to the point he defies the Lion...Trying to identify DA with their original homeworld (from which no DA currenly originates from) in the same way as say SWs is just wrong. If anything they should shun the traditions of Caliban as something evil - something that helped bring on the Fall.

 

The orders never corrupted Luther, saying so is a generalization at best, nor are they evil. Caliban heritage is not corrupting or evil either. If you read Fallen Angels, Luther's reason for breaking fealty to the Lion is a lot more complicated and a lot more desperate than being an advocate of Caliban.

 

Who said anything about evil? The members of the old knightly orders that approached and influneced Luther (did not corrupt him outright - you are right there) were undoubtedly anti-Imperium - if this is a good or a bad thing it's debatable :D . Ambiguity is a defining feature of DAs after all.

 

You also seem to forget that no Dark Angel, from 30,000k to 40,000k was born from consistent homeworlds. From when the Lion Falls, to the current timeline, the only consistency, the only glue holding them together were the traditions that the Lion had installed within them and left them with after his passing. They leave all backgrounds to become part of a 10,000 year tradition that has never changed, except in the case of the Deathwing, which happened thousands of years after Caliban was destroyed.

 

I didn't realise I argued otherwise... I actually quite agree with the above. But the Lion was not an advocate of Calibanite tradition - far from it.

 

Why would the immediate post Heresy loyalist DA shun Calabanite traditions? A massive portion of them were former order members, firmly loyal to the Lion as well as their home. You mention that it was the DA loyalist destroy Caliban, and why wouldn't they even if the majority of them were from Caliban, for who would want to see their home so perversely desecrated by a traitor. Here is something from Codex: Angels of Death, 2nd Edition, page 12:

 

Caliban was made the home world of the Dark Angels and the whole of the Order moved to join its ranks. Those knights who were still young enough had the Legion's gene-seed implanted within them, while those too old for this process underwent surgery to transform them into elite warriors of the Imperium.

 

First off the emphasis is yours - not in the text. The way this sentence comes across to me (emphasis aside) is that the Order was assimilated into the Legion. Not the other way around.

 

Those are the traditions of the Lion, as well as Luther, and it was all that remained for the survivors of the event. It was the pre-determined strength and oath-bound secrecy and that allowed them to endure the hardships and seek redemption for 10,000 years. They continued to live exactly how they always had, but rather than pursuiting splintered human worlds, they now sought vengeance on the Fallen.

 

Arguing that the Lion and Luther had the same take as to what DA should stand for is a little stretched… And the Legion post HH did not operate as it did pre-Heresy. Not the same command structure not the same mission. Maybe similar battlefield tactics but that’s about it.

 

"wait a minute, we should actually upkeep the traditions of Caliban" - I don't think so.

 

How did they not keep their traditions? All Dark Angels are exactly that, Dark Angels, and they have been since the Lion's fall. They continue on in the way that the Lion taught them, fighting in the manner he taught them. Supreme Grand Master Azrael does not consider himself born a head-hunter of Kimmeria and feel pride in it, nor can he relate to someone born in a backward gulch-desert world, none of it matters since the day he passed his trials and chose to give up everything about his past in order to become a son of the Lion, he who once called Caliban.

 

Yes. The traditions of the Legion as the Lion taught them. Not the traditions of Caliban's knightly orders. I think the Lion distant himself from the old order (Order) pretty fast (another point of friction with Luther). But OK it was a bit harsh on my behalf. As Arioch also mentioned obviously some traditions did permeate to the post HH Legion/Chapters. The robes were adopted by the Legion before HH (the Lion wore them) and they were maintained after that. The concept of the Inner Circle (non-existent in the Legion's structure before HH) was established in a similar fashion as in the Order. But then again they repainted their armor to green from black - I think the only loyal legion to make such drastic change... But I admit I got carried away a bit there. However my fundamental position in this discussion is that the knightly theme was never a dominant feature in any DA Codex. Trying to introduce it in the future as such with the justification that it originates from Caliban well.. there is a problem there. What bothers me the most is that there is somehow a redeeming element in them being "knights". To me DA are cold hearted on the outside and cold hearted on the inside. No boring (sorry to say) knightly theme here. It is not a defining feature now and it would not differentiate us (DAs) in the future. The warrior monk/Spanish Inquisition theme works fine and is unique (sort of).

 

Also remember that the majority of 40k Dark Angels do not know who Luther is, do not know how Caliban was destroyed, do not know of how it's people came to be tied in a web of lies, do not know the majority of their own Legion's past, save stories and traditions they learn as they grow through the ranks. There is no reason the post heresy loyalists didn't preserve the best things of their own past, and ensure that the future of the Legion received them as well.

 

What was to be preserved or not was not decided by low level marines but by the Inner Circle. They decided what version of the truth should be prevailing and what customs were to be preserved or not. Again my point is that there is a discontinuity in the Legion post Heresy unlike any other loyal Legion..

 

There is no proof of the DA shunning the traditions of Caliban and the Order, in fact with their primarch gone, it was all they had left to build on.

 

This. The proof is in the pudding.

 

*edit Also, anyone notice the parallel between: how the Order was the only martial brotherhood on Caliban who accepted members based on work and merit, rather than blood, lineage and heritage. The poorest of the poor had just as much of an equal chance, as a wealthy noble son. With Caliban destroyed, and the lineage with it, it seems this same value applies to the diversity of applicants accepted from so many recruitment worlds. When you become a Dark Angel, much like a member of the Order, you accept it body and soul and leave your past at the door.

 

Much like any other loyal Chapter. Interestingly this was not the case of Zaltys was it now... Someone is getting rusty in the Chapter recruiting office :D.

 

*edit It has long been understood that Death-worlds are given leave and immunity against taxation by the Imperium, be it through monetary values or trade supplies. Normally, the only item of value on the world that can be readied for acquisition is an agreement by the inhabitants to give up their sons for active service to either the IG or the Astartes. Caliban being a Legion homeworld... why on earth were there facilities and industrial plants placed on practically sacred and legally bound ground? It really is a decent question to ask, as this is one of the main fire starters for the calibanite-heresy.

 

Good question - no answer here.

[Arioch]

Octavulg:

Ok, so maybe Black library likes charging? Im not quite sure what to say to this, I read a spacewolf novel once, it sure was terrible, and the only strategy employed was CHAARGEE! That certainly was boring.

 

Brother Degas:

The tower of Angels is restricted area, because it is considered sacred by the chapter, so it has nothing to do with hate towards it.

 

Bryan:

You are completly correct, and yes its true for all spacemarines, because spacemarines is heavy-shocktroppers, at least that is how they are normally deployed. I wasnt trying to prove that they uses CHARRGE! as their only viable strategy, rather I was trying to clear out how they attack. If I recall correctly, some other tropper told the chaplin that they could have surrounded the place and shoot the enemy from all kind of different angles, using the pdf forces, but Boreas would not allow that. Why? Because he was stubborn, proud and considered it below his dignity to have normal human do the work of an astartes. Was this reasonabel? Well you could say, that because of this, the pdf had more forces to spare elsewhere.

 

ODM:

If I may say so, Purging of Kadillus showed very little distinction between a Dark Angel and a regulear marine, exept a little things here and there. If our new codex featured these marines, well....would we really need that codex?

 

Staying on topic:

Let the DA become a secret legion, expand our known characters more (especially Azrael). Lets hear more from the Fallen, our strife with the Space wolfs (and let us win a duel once in a while). More details on the Rock, how initiates are tested to become marines. Lets get more information on that Cypher guy, how has he damaged the chapter, how has he helped the chaper? What do a watcher do, why are they hanging around? Are they just there to carry Azraels helm, or are they watching him, ever watchfull for the corrupting influence of chaos? Do other characters have one? What did the chapter do during the last black crusade. There is LOADS of stuff to explore. Just...just keep that guy away from it...no not JJ....

[Captain Semper]

Except what Azrael being supreme means varies depending on who you ask - is he first among equals? Does he just direct the hunt for the Fallen? How much does he direct it? How much voice do the other GMs have? Personally, I don't think they're a legion, if only because they're too spread out for it to be practical. Azrael's a lot closer to the Holy Roman Emperor than the Roman Emperor.

 

That sort of thing. I think it'd be a lot more interesting to have that answer vary depending on who you ask in the DA and their successors than it would be to just have them be a legion with the serial numbers filed off.

 

Yes! Exactly. I beleive there is a lot of room here to explore. A lot of question marks. How does this exactly work? Are all the successors compliant? Do successors co-operate in other missions that do not involve the Fallen? Are they a dormant legion or a loose alliance? Is there an "inner circle" within this strucutre i.e. do some Succesors work more closely together than others? Are all the Masters of DA superior to their respective counterparties as Azrael is to the other Chapter Masters? How is the Supreme Grand Master chosen? Do candidates also come from Successors? On this last one I have the feeling that it was hinted that Azrael did not originate from the DAs but some succesor. I cannot though remeber where I read it and am not sure I got it right. If true it sheds some light on the close relation of the Successors. Maybe someone can help here...

 

I am with ODM fully on that. It is a path worth exploring and I like to see it emerge in a future codex.

 

EDIT: I also agree with Arioch in that Kadillus left a lot to be desired. Very few things were reminiscent of DAs and Belial and Boreas are portayed in a less than favorable light in my view. Nothing like that in the future Codex i hope...

[ODM]

Octavulg:

Ok, so maybe Black library likes charging? Im not quite sure what to say to this, I read a spacewolf novel once, it sure was terrible, and the only strategy employed was CHAARGEE! That certainly was boring.

 

Brother Degas:

The tower of Angels is restricted area, because it is considered sacred by the chapter, so it has nothing to do with hate towards it.

 

Bryan:

You are completly correct, and yes its true for all spacemarines, because spacemarines is heavy-shocktroppers, at least that is how they are normally deployed. I wasnt trying to prove that they uses CHARRGE! as their only viable strategy, rather I was trying to clear out how they attack. If I recall correctly, some other tropper told the chaplin that they could have surrounded the place and shoot the enemy from all kind of different angles, using the pdf forces, but Boreas would not allow that. Why? Because he was stubborn, proud and considered it below his dignity to have normal human do the work of an astartes. Was this reasonabel? Well you could say, that because of this, the pdf had more forces to spare elsewhere.

 

ODM:

If I may say so, Purging of Kadillus showed very little distinction between a Dark Angel and a regulear marine, exept a little things here and there. If our new codex featured these marines, well....would we really need that codex?

 

Staying on topic:

Let the DA become a secret legion, expand our known characters more (especially Azrael). Lets hear more from the Fallen, our strife with the Space wolfs (and let us win a duel once in a while). More details on the Rock, how initiates are tested to become marines. Lets get more information on that Cypher guy, how has he damaged the chapter, how has he helped the chaper? What do a watcher do, why are they hanging around? Are they just there to carry Azraels helm, or are they watching him, ever watchfull for the corrupting influence of chaos? Do other characters have one? What did the chapter do during the last black crusade. There is LOADS of stuff to explore. Just...just keep that guy away from it...no not JJ....

 

I pretty much agree with all you've said, and all the areas to explore.

 

My point about Kallidus is that in a straight up battle, that's what we are, marines. We're tactially proficient marines who use a combined arms approach to combat. Like a ton of other Chapters. Trying to find a new niche there is silly IMHO. It's covered every which way in the other 4 codexes.

 

The differences come out with regards to our Hunt for the Fallen. That's even what the DW and RW are supposed to be for according to the latest codex. So expand it. That's where our secret shame, and the Inner Circle, and the Unforgiven as a legion all come in to their own.

 

Do you guys remember the artwork of the Fallen and the Scouts (Fallen Hunters?) before the last codex? There were obviously some interesting ideas that were never completed. I'd like to see this developed further, a lot further. Cypher, hell yes. Let's go with it.

[Octavulg]

ODM

 

The fluff that makes us unique is the Hunt for the Fallen and the fact that the DA Grand Master is master to all the Unforgiven. These are the things I think they need to play up.

 

I'd like some new stuff, personally. The DA are a bit one note right now, and while expanding and deepening what is there is good, the simple fact is that more could be done and probably should be done, if only because right now we're not a very distinct army (and we should be, for practical considerations if nothing else).

 

Arioch

 

Ok, so maybe Black library likes charging? Im not quite sure what to say to this, I read a spacewolf novel once, it sure was terrible, and the only strategy employed was CHAARGEE! That certainly was boring.

 

My point was that just because they charge in the Black Library does not mean that's all they can do, or even most of what they do. I mean, the Night Lords do a decent bit o' charging in A D-B's books.

[Brother Degas]

@arioch

I meant respect not fear. The tower is sealed because it is revered by the da, a hang over from the pre-heresy days to be entered once the lion returns.

 

I agree with ideas for expanding stuff.

 

Also a lot of things are currently explained/hinted at, 1 being that the SGM picks a successor.

 

I think its an idea from ODM about expanding the successor chapters, I was thinking why not create a new generic HQ entry for project unforgiven "SGM Successor". This would allow a successor player to pick a HQ that was similar to Az but not quiet as powerful.

 

Plus if the DA are a legion, there's nothing to stop a successor player fielding an army with az as hq anyway so wont make too much difference.

[Candleshoes]

3. If you have a unit that you would really like to see in the new codex explain how they would fit into the DA fluff, how do they fit within our circles?

 

Back to Droma's original post, what type of new units would or could be created to either help enhance the current fluff, or give more flavour to what seems to be a very normal in play army, but distinctive in background possibility.

 

I was thinking about this the other day and the relentless rule just really seemed to pop, as it has been brought up in other areas. It is not really utilized by anyone thusfar bar terminators, but with the majority of players choosing assualt based terminators over their tactical brothers, this leaves this gap.

 

In our recent fluff, stories, novels, and short stories, the heavy firepower brought to bear through DA shock assaults seem to be the niche of choice.

 

Having a unit with the relentless rule and the possibility to mix heavy and or special weapons could allow mobile fire support, or act as a hammer of firepower before assaulting. Your not treading on the black templar/blood angel realm of close combat, the static and specialized tactics of the codex chapters, or the variety of the space wolves.

 

Maybe giving our "company veterans", or rather, what will be the equivalent of our peers sternguard and vanguard, this fire-power shock role, will help define them as a viable entry in our new book, that doesn't step on the toes of the other basic tactical/assualt/devastator entries.

 

Remembering back to when the 4th ed book came out, and some of the concepts that could have been, but were dropped, it will be nice to see a change of pace.

 

I agree with Octavulg, they are a little one note right now, with no real reason to retain their own independant book in upcoming 6th, unless serious changes are made to the background, rules, models, and playstyle.

 

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p113/Darkbeastman/1fbf8b6a1b.jpg

[shabbadoo]

I do agree that DA need a little something more, but I think it should not be in the way of affecting every unit in the Chapter, but mainly in making more noticeable the one area of the Chapter that really hasn't been explored all that well yet- the Inner Circle. We've had the Deathwing and the Ravenwing, but the Inner Circle has pretty much been ignored. It has only really been a name, plus a special rule for HQ choices. How has that been shown? The DA HQs, which everyone has, were robes. That's it. Robes. That concept art above is basically Dark Angels Honour Guard armed with relic blades. Actually having a unit which represents the Inner Circle so blatantly would definitely be a very good thing. I think this sort of unit will do more for the image of the Dark Angels than a Mortis Dread or other vehicle variant ever would. It's the boots on the ground that matter, no so much the machines.

 

Stop being racists to people from Caliban! (sorry had to say it :))

^_^ No, I'm not bashing Caliban culture, but the books do. I couldn't recall the specifics, so I reviewed them a bit. There other books don't really go into what effect the arrival on any of the other Primarch's world has, De3scnet of Angels does describe it, and how drastic an effect it is. The book describes the change in mindset that comes over the people of Caliban in but a short time. Before, only the nobility were worthy to become warriors, but with the arrival of the Imperium, anybody could join the Imperial Army. The status of knight therefore became lessened immediately in Caliban culture. The knights even mentioned subordinates talking back to them a few times, and it is these who try to assassinate the Emperor and later lead uprisings. We all know how the Imperium deals with such uprisings- brutality.

 

So what all of a sudden the chapter holds no traditions from Caliban? What? Where do you think we got our robes from? Our inner circle, the ravenwing, the heraldry on our terminators? All our secret rites, the entire system of keeping secrets hidden from the unworthy, it all comes from Caliban. In every other legion we have seen that the traditions of the primarchs homeworld was merged with that of the legion, so why would the Dark Angels be any exception? Even the name of the legion "Dark Angels" comes from an ancient myth of Caliban. The Dark Angels of the 41. millenium share this heritage, as they share some form of the knightly heritage that came from that. Yes they destroyed Caliban, but they build their seat of power on the remains of it! There is no proof of the DA shunning the traditions of Caliban and the Order, in fact with their primarch gone, it was all they had left to build on.

Surely the Legion picks up some minor practices and didn't shun Caliban influenced completely. They were just very minor. It is Lion's Legion, so he does of course shape it a bit. The similar hierarchy of the Legion adopts Caliban rank names for one, and the knightly surplice for the other. Unfortunately, that covers most of the known changes right there. As to only having Caliban heritage to build from, what? So the Imperium, which altered the very culture of Caliban in but a short time, ceased to exist in the minds of the Dark Angels? There was only the memory of Caliban to shape them? Seriously? I'm thinking that the continuing Dark Angels Legion very much continued building off what still remained to actually influence them; that which they were a part of, and that which they would continue to be a part of- the Imperium. Except that, after the great betrayal, they now had something to hide even from them too. Heavily Imperial, slightly Calibanite, the former would wonder about what happened to Caliban and the Primarch, while the latter was no longer around to serve as evidence of the Legion's shame/cause any further problems/influence them further. As to the heraldry bit, every single Chapter uses heraldry, personal and otherwise. Once again, all space marines are knights to some degree, as it is what they are based on.

 

There is also nothing that suggest that the Lion hated Caliban or its people. He sent some back, yes, but there where also terrans among them (Astelan, Israfael). The reason behind it is still unknown anyway. In the latest HH book, the Dark Angels is portrayed very knigthly, Caliban as a feudal world, just a hundred times worse than the actual medival times. The Lion is called "a knight" and the heroes shown uses the sword as their foremost weapon.

And the Dark Angels that Lion first encounters are equipped in exactly the same way- power armor, chainsword, bolt pistol. It is described in detail how they are the same, excepting that the Imperial tech is far superior, and that the marines are giants. The sentiment is very much "They are just like us, only better." I never said Lion hated Caliban or its people. Lion hated division, and some of that was bred into the Calibanites due to their long tradition of feudalism and lack of cooperation among the other knightly orders. Those who would not get with the new program, or that would be divisive were slowly but surely removed. There were more instances of this among Calibanite Dark Angels than Terrans, though there are some Terran to be sure; Astellan for instance.

 

Im also still not buying that the Dark Angels favors the gun.

Other stories does nothing to suggest that the Dark Angels should be particularly emphasixed on shooting. In "Decent of Angels" the hero Zahariel slays a monster with pistol and sword. Latter as a spacemarine, the Lion and his men engages a demon of chaos in close combat, until it can be destroyed with a psychic attack. In "Fallen Angels" the figthing is done as much with shooting as with the blade. In the final fight they charge their enemy (although these are afterwards eliminated by a huge warmachine). In "The purging of Kadillus" Boreas simply states "Shock assault brother, that is what we do best". I would agree with this.

I agree. There are many examples of the Dark Angels fighting in all ways. They really are a balanced force, not one that favors shooting more so than any other Chapter already does.

 

But what I really wanted to say is: The Dark Angels are knigthly in aspect. That is why we have Grand Masters and a Supreme Grand master, much like the (reallife)Templars had it. The Rock is pretty much a floating Mont saint Michel in space, or a Krak de Chevallier (sorry with the spelling I dont know anything about french). But the Da are never the straigthforeward, easy recognisable knigths, like the Templars for instance, they hold many other aspects which makes it hard to find any solid "archtype" at all.

That's the funny thing about them. They have outward aspects of the historical Knights Templar- penitent warrior monks, Inner Circle, the same rank titles, but that is about where it ends. Some would seek to use that angle to also insert mysticism into the Dark Angles, but there is no evidnce of muysticism atall. Perhaps they are mixing up books about the Knights Templar with the Dark Angles. Nope, they don't commune with the talking head of John the Baptist, or anything else. Who knows where the whole mysticism angle comes from. Perhaps they interpret ritual(like the Feast of Malediction) as mysticism, which is of course not mysticism at all. The whole Fallen angle can be played up further in the fluff, as can the Watchers who linger around visibly enough in the current Chapter that most Dark Angels will know of them. That's got to come about somehow, because previously the Watchers didn't appear hardly at all.

 

"wait a minute, we should actually upkeep the traditions of Caliban" - I don't think so.

 

How did they not keep their traditions? All Dark Angels are exactly that, Dark Angels, and they have been since the Lion's fall. They continue on in the way that the Lion taught them, fighting in the manner he taught them. Supreme Grand Master Azrael does not consider himself born a head-hunter of Kimmeria and feel pride in it, nor can he relate to someone born in a backward gulch-desert world, none of it matters since the day he passed his trials and chose to give up everything about his past in order to become a son of the Lion, he who once called Caliban home.

The Calbanite tradition is not "Forget that you were a noble of Caliban. You are only a Knight of the Order now." The only tradition Lion(and the Emperor himself actually) insisted upon was the unity of the knightly orders leading to unity in the Legion, such that all other knightly orders were abolished and rolled into the Order. There are no knightly orders, there is only the Order. That sense of unity remains in the example you describe, but that isn't Calibanite culture as it is literally against the Calibanite cultural practice of having competing knighthoods. The unity of the orders had to do with Imperial culture, and after Caliban's destruction it also has to do with a secret purpose too. Going forwards from that, only the most steadfast and loyal are inducted into the Deathwing. Nice the way that unity of purpose builds within the Chapter.

[brother vlad]

Murder. Everything. DA are the only major chapter with something to hide... and protecting secrets are one thing the Dark Angels have done well since the Heresy. Wolves are Vikings, BA are vampires, DA are the Bundies/Dahmers/Zodiac killers of the Space Marine chapters. Let other chapters keep the "Twighlight" themes. Screw monastic themes, Grey Knights can have it. Flirting with chaos makes the DA appeal, not a bunch of brooding EMO BS. Let the Ultramarines be the "varsity" of space marines, Dark Angels will be the kids behind the gym with switchblades, fast cars, and a 'devil may care' attitude. Non human? Kill it. Heard a rumor? Kill it.

 

The 1st Chapter.

 

Loyal to the Emperor alone.

 

Destroy and ruin EVERYTHING that comes in the way of the first two points.

 

Everyone should fear the Dark Angels, nosy loyalists, Chaos, xenos, and Gray Knights.

 

BRING. IT. ON. FOR THE LION.