Fluff in a new DA codex

[Marshal Rohr]

Templars are already like that broski. Stay away from my theme.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Templars are already like that broski. Stay away from my theme.

Yeah, but we had it FIRST. ;)

 

stobz

[Brother Immolator]

Gentlemen i had been reading this past few days that wonderfull thread and i would like to make some comments,been a dark angel player,fluff freak.

 

First of all i want to point out something which for a couple of pages in this thread you seem to take from granted while it is not so(as far as i know at least correct me if i am mistaken).

 

Issue one:The legacy of the dark angels:There is a discussion about the influx of recruits from Caliban during the HH and how those recruits were mistrusted by the lion and how they influenced the present day chapter.In the angels of darkness novel remember the bitterness expressed by the TERRAN Astelan.In it he sais that whole terran chapters of the legion were regularily shadowed in their movements by newly recruited from Caliban.Moreover eventually they were replaced in the front lines and the terrans were relegated to secondary tasks.The Terrans were resistant to the lions orders compaired to the new recruits and that can be seen in one of the battles he describes(if i remember it right it describes the lion also be outraged by the fact).So if this is true and the whole front line is Calibanite then it must be logical that those that bombed Caliban were Calibanites themselves.Secondly if terran officers such as Astelan were returned back to Caliban it is only logical that they would take their forces with them(Terrans).

In conclusion,since the core of the DA crusading force was composed of Calibanite chapters and the terrans were recalled to Caliban,it apears that the majority of the fallen were terrans.Luther corrupted the newest generation of recruits(quioted from the codex),wich means at least for me that the majority of full formed marines on the planet were terrans.How can a generation of recruits claim to have been abandoned to guard duty when they havent even fought in the crusade?No the survivors of the destruction of Caliban are Calibanites themselves and the majority of the fallen are terrans.To this you can say that Luther might have some others with him that were also transformed into lets say semi marines like him,but the question remains.What side were the Terrans?I believe Luthers,or at least used Luther somehow.

 

Remember that if what Astelan says is true,the Lion was more pragmatist than Loyal,which infuriated the Terrans,whose loyalty is to the Empy foremost.

 

Close Combat or Ranged Combat Chapter?The dark angels are predominantly a long range chapter.Why?Lets see:We are the first chapter to pioneer plasma weaponry.We used it first in tactical squads,in dreads and devastator squads.We are also the first chapter to mount double autocannons to our dreads(Mortis pattern).We are(or used to be in other editions anyway)the most advanced in terms of technology chapter.Technology moves you away from the barbarism of CC and demands precise planning.The lion was a master strategist and didnt have many uses for the briliant space pup strategy known as:Kick and punch them in the head till they die.Not to say that we suck at it but it isnt our focus.

 

I liked the picturing of the dark angels and their succesors as unified(albiet loosly)legion.I hadnt though of that in the past,but it seems to be the case that out chapter master in indeed the leader of the succesors.He is not first among equals as it has been stated,he is first and the other chapter masters are second to him.If they all were equal then all chapter masters would knew about Luther.Only he knows it even within the DA(except perhaps Ezekiel but that is not made clear).He was indeed recruited by the dark angels(he fought in the phase uprising if i remember right).

 

Edit:I remember having a discussion and somebody pointng to me that the watchers are the souls of the Exorcised Fallen who have been forced to serve the DA.Anybody can confirm pro or against that?

 

Anyways those are my two cents.Comment and critisism accepted as always.

[Captain Semper]

I think it is fundamentally wrong to assign labels (Terrans/Calibanites) on the Fallen. Although the background (mostly BL books) certainly shows enmity between Terrans and Calibanites this is not to say the Fallen are predominantelty of either faction. Their leader was Calibanite. One of their most senior officers (and the one who pressed the button) was Terran. The rest? Who knows. I beleive they were mostly Calibanite, you believe vice versa. In any case there is not conclusive evidence on either position in existing literature (although assuming Terrans to be the prime supporters of Luther seems far fetched to me to say the least). Furthermore it is irrelevant in the 40k context. It's not like there is a distinction to the treatment be the Fallen Terran or Calibanite. A Fallen is a Fallen is a Fallen.

 

On the issue of ranged or c/c orientation, well this is the interesting one. The plasma theme from the 3rd edition received a lot a negative comments and was not carried through in the 4th - (or 5th for that matter). Now Plasma Cannons are available to all "Codex" Chapters tactical squads. So the theme has waned. It is however generally accepted that that DA have some technological advantage. This is not reflected in the rules but it could be a great opportunity to introduce new vechicles or weapons that are unavailable to other Chapters. That'd be cool. Personally I wouldn't mind DAs to go for the shooty theme. An antithesis to BAs. Why not?

 

Just for the record: I think 3rd edition Codex contributed a lot to the background of DA despite its failings and its size. Probably one of the most underrated codices ever. I think it deserves more recognition.

[Brother Immolator]

I am with you for the 3rd codex.People might not liked the plasma heritage but it has been shaped.Because that codex was the first consistent(Angels of death was not so targeted for a lack of a better word)attempt at fleshing the DA as a chapter fluff wise.

 

On the Calibanites Vs Terrans.I dont descriminate them.Fact is that most Terrans were on Caliban prior to its destruction while the Calibanites were with the Lion.

Luther had only his own kind(those who were given augmentation but were true space marines)and the newlly trained marines and the new recruits.

 

I dont say the Calibanites followed Luther.I like the word used to describe this situation.Given the fact that most of them didnt knew about chaos at all(the imperial truth anyone?)They wouldnt have noticed chaos influence on him.After all IF(and this is a huge if,cause this comes from the mouth of a fallen)

Astelan told Boreas the truth,it was he who fired the lazer defenses against the Lions fleet.

 

Whatever the case might be we will propably never learn the truth.And that is what is great about the DA chapter.They are warped in an enigma one that none has any realistic chance of ever unrapping.And i believe the destiny of the chapter is closer to the emperors destiny than any other organisations within the imperium.The only ones coming a close second for me is the Alpha legion but i havent found much about their fluff too.

[shabbadoo]

Edit:I remember having a discussion and somebody pointing to me that the watchers are the souls of the Exorcised Fallen who have been forced to serve the DA.Anybody can confirm pro or against that?

Somebody just made that up. The HH books very literally state that Watchers are powerful Xenos psyker guardians who watch over the dark places of Caliban and keep the taint of Chaos in check as much as they can(obviously, it isn't fully kept in check). Yes, the Dark Angels have that to hide too. Lion/Zariel(I forget which; I loaned my HH books to my brother to read just today so I can't verify who it was) actually chats up a Watcher on Caliban in the HH books and learns a few things.

 

As to the Terrans, many get removed from the front lines, but it is just those who are trouble makers. The same goes for the Calibanites. Nowhere does it state that Lion removed commanders and the entirety of the 1,000 marines under their command. It would be insensible to do so anyways.

 

Also, we know that Astellan told many untruths and half-truths(which is why his story is so fun).

 

There could have been plenty of Calibanites in the Legion, but Lion's ideals had more in common with Imperial ideals than Calibanite ones, so the Calibanites would be the ones needing to leave behind their petty infighting and noble hubris(remember, anybody could become a space marine, but on Caliban only the nobility could become knights), and some were none too pleased with the idea of it. This bit in particular was a big sticking point within the old guard of Calibanite society, and eventually led to insurrection that was brutally put down. We see some Calibanite traditions in the Dark Angels, but they are traditions that don't heavily alter Imperial traditions. Basically, there are just some name changes, and not much more. We could also point to the Ravenwing as being a Calibanite things, and the Order's scouts are called "Ravenwing"(that was added into the HH books). I don't recall the Deathwing being mentioned up to this point. Maybe they'll be in the next book.

[Captain Semper]

So guys let's recap:

 

Main themes/debates that emerged from the previous discussion:

 

1. Pronounced knightly theme/played down knightly theme.

2. Exploring more the “circle upon circles” theme.

3. Shooty /more balanced tactics theme.

4. Unified Legion theme/more depth for Successors.

5. Technological advantage theme played up.

6. Oh yes… and a timeline!

 

Any more stuff? Anything I missed?

[shabbadoo]

You left out the penitent warrior monk theme, which is what has shaped the Chapter for 10,000 years. Kind of important that. :P The development of this Dark Angels mindset instead of the continuation of the crusading knights theme is definitely worth exploring further.

[Captain Semper]

You are right!!! I guess this was implied as the opposite of the knightly theme (and the current dominant theme)... but maybe not. So yes, the 1st bullet should be:

 

1. Knightly theme vs. Monk theme (?)

 

Does this make more sense? Or could be both at the same time? Oh here we go again... :P

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

hahaha, yup, here we go. Lets just leave it as GW will decide whatever they want for our beloved warriors...sigh...

 

Even making them, heaven forbid, dark green ultra smurfs!

 

BUT, id like the Legion aspect played up, and make it more than just about the fallen, that all successor chapters follow Azraels direction in many areas of doctrine, policy, relations with other aspects of the Imperium etc: I love the idea that we are waiting for Lion to return and lead us on a new crusade to purge the Imperium of Chaos.

 

However, i want us to move away from a 'shooty niche' and play up the tactics side of things, as the Lion was second only to Horus and well ahead of Guilliman in tactica.

[Octavulg]

However, i want us to move away from a 'shooty niche' and play up the tactics side of things, as the Lion was second only to Horus and well ahead of Guilliman in tactica.

 

The problem is that:

 

A ) The DA are a codex chapter. That ties us to Guilliman.

B ) Jonson being tactically sophisticated doesn't mean his organizational methods were or that his descendants are. Indeed, most portrayals of him suggest that his successes had more to do with him than with any innate ability in his legion.

C) Tactics tend to be abstracted in 40K. They seem to think the player should provide some.

D ) Even when they're not abstracted out, they're generally limited to HQ units

E ) You show me how to be tactically flexible while being distinct from Codex: Space Marines, a Codex Chapter, and not "Codex Space Marines, but better", and I'll be impressed.

F ) Shooting is, in many ways, more flexible than assault (it lets you retain mobility, it can be applied from range, and it limits your exposure to scary things that are bigger than you). What do most Space Marines carry?

 

BUT, id like the Legion aspect played up, and make it more than just about the fallen, that all successor chapters follow Azraels direction in many areas of doctrine, policy, relations with other aspects of the Imperium etc: I love the idea that we are waiting for Lion to return and lead us on a new crusade to purge the Imperium of Chaos.

 

I find it amazing how often this and "no shooty" go hand in hand.

 

So anyone who wants to make a DA successor gets to deal with the fact that they really are knockoffs of their parent? Sounds fun. Plus, that's incompatible with previous fluff - the Angels of Absolution follow Azrael's direction in all things...but don't think Hunting the Fallen is necessary to redeem themselves. That sounds like a pretty big incompatibility if they follow Azrael in all things...

 

If you have it vary from chapter to chapter, there's a range of interesting possibilities, and the potential for conflict when the Fallen are gone (if that ever happens), or even conflict now. Have them all be extensions of the DA and it eliminates a lot of the potential from the background.

 

There'd also be the question of how the DA never curb-stomped the Space Wolves whenever they went to war...

[Captain Semper]

However, i want us to move away from a 'shooty niche' and play up the tactics side of things, as the Lion was second only to Horus and well ahead of Guilliman in tactica.

 

The problem is that:

 

A ) The DA are a codex chapter. That ties us to Guilliman.

B ) Jonson being tactically sophisticated doesn't mean his organizational methods were or that his descendants are. Indeed, most portrayals of him suggest that his successes had more to do with him than with any innate ability in his legion.

C) Tactics tend to be abstracted in 40K. They seem to think the player should provide some.

D ) Even when they're not abstracted out, they're generally limited to HQ units

E ) You show me how to be tactically flexible while being distinct from Codex: Space Marines, a Codex Chapter, and not "Codex Space Marines, but better", and I'll be impressed.

F ) Shooting is, in many ways, more flexible than assault (it lets you retain mobility, it can be applied from range, and it limits your exposure to scary things that are bigger than you). What do most Space Marines carry?

 

Let me guess... bolter? :)

 

The shooty theme is something that will deferentiate DAs on the table top - not in the background so much I don't think. If GW wants to make DA a shooty Chapter that's fine - I'm all for it! But it will probably include a couple of special rules and upgrade configurations and possibly (hopefully) some unique equipment so that they'll touch the "technical superiority" theme as well. In any case I personally do not see the shooty/not-so-shooty debate as a major issue background wise.

 

 

BUT, id like the Legion aspect played up, and make it more than just about the fallen, that all successor chapters follow Azraels direction in many areas of doctrine, policy, relations with other aspects of the Imperium etc: I love the idea that we are waiting for Lion to return and lead us on a new crusade to purge the Imperium of Chaos.

 

I find it amazing how often this and "no shooty" go hand in hand.

 

So anyone who wants to make a DA successor gets to deal with the fact that they really are knockoffs of their parent? Sounds fun. Plus, that's incompatible with previous fluff - the Angels of Absolution follow Azrael's direction in all things...but don't think Hunting the Fallen is necessary to redeem themselves. That sounds like a pretty big incompatibility if they follow Azrael in all things...

 

If you have it vary from chapter to chapter, there's a range of interesting possibilities, and the potential for conflict when the Fallen are gone (if that ever happens), or even conflict now. Have them all be extensions of the DA and it eliminates a lot of the potential from the background.

 

There'd also be the question of how the DA never curb-stomped the Space Wolves whenever they went to war...

 

Here I have a different view. You seem to think that a unified Legion theme "demotes" the successors. It doesn't have to be like that.

 

First of all this is a unique background that sets (the otherwise very Codex chapter) apart from its peers. It binds them to a common mission and enhances the secrecy theme. That's good. From then on it depends how strong the ties are between the various successors. There are a number of possibilites here. It could be the more bland approach: "DAs is the boss the rest should follow" which I'll agree with you is lame BUT it could be much deeper than that. What if, for example, the Supreme Grand Master is elected from the unified Inner Circle that spans accross all Chapters? That will be an interesting line, no? All Successors operate as if they were Chapters of the Legion. No relative seniority but with a common ruling body (Inner Circle) and a leader that holds the honorary position of the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels...

 

Or it could take a different direction where each successor is acting indipendently unless a particular situation arises and the "Legion" theme is triggered. Or it may be that some successors see themselves as a direct continuation of the Legion and some see it as a loose alliance. Or something else...

 

I think this would be a very interesting area to expand on in a future Codex as the theme is already mentioned but not explored enough...

 

Oh, and I wouldn't worry about running out of Fallen just yet :) .

[Octavulg]

Let me guess... bolter? laugh.gif

 

I was thinking unresolved daddy issues, but yours makes more sense in context. We'll go with that.

 

The shooty theme is something that will deferentiate DAs on the table top - not in the background so much I don't think. If GW wants to make DA a shooty Chapter that's fine - I'm all for it! But it will probably include a couple of special rules and upgrade configurations and possibly (hopefully) some unique equipment so that they'll touch the "technical superiority" theme as well. In any case I personally do not see the shooty/not-so-shooty debate as a major issue background wise.

 

Depends on how it's implemented.

 

"Lion'El Jonson invented the bolter" will be met differently than "the DA shoot stuff on occasion".

 

Or it could take a different direction where each successor is acting indipendently unless a particular situation arises and the "Legion" theme is triggered. Or it may be that some successors see themselves as a direct continuation of the Legion and some see it as a loose alliance. Or something else...

 

See, this would be the approach I favored. Far more possibility for calamity, conflict, and general skullduggery.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Agreed with you, I dont mean move away neccessarily in ruleset etc: But, I want us to not be concieved always as the 'shooty chapter' like thats all we do, its annoying. Take the SW, they can put out some mean gun lists, but everyone sees them as close combat.

 

And with the Legion, yea, plenty of room to play around with it. Could be interesting if Azrael is the first DA Chapter Supreme Grand Master in over a 1000 years...

[Brother Immolator]

What do you mean by him be the first supreme grand master in years?

 

Electing a chapter master for the dark angels(since he is the supreme grandmaster)from another succesor in a no no.It would be odd

for the battle brothers dont you think?

 

DA non inner circle marine:Why do they send us an angels of abosulution guy to rule here?We have 10 company masters to choose from...scratches head...

Inquisitor:Why do they choose as chapter master one of their succesors?Odd let me search this a bit...

 

Well you get my point.Even though the interogator chaplain escorting the inquisitor will 'accidently' toss him out an airlock,it will arise suspisions.

We call ourselves the unforgiven,some of our chapters have left whole hives to die and we dont much as say a 'hello' to our allies when we deploy for battle,

we dont need to arise more suspisions.Plus who will accept a 'foreigner' as a chapter master?Succesors though they may be they are different bodies even if they operate under a legion structure.I believe that having the DA chapter master as the Supreme grandmaster of all the unforgiven its for the best,but he should be elect from the DA themselves.

 

Anyone feels that we need a succesor chapter to deal with the inquisition?Much like we have the Lions of Caliban for the fallen/Cypher?

A chapter that will deal with inquisitors(ie feed them false info and if needed silence them as not to risk marring the DA name).After all how many can have 'accidents' without arrousing suspicion?

We have our own CIA(Lions of Caliban),lets create a KGB too!That would be fun!

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Not as GM for the DA, but it has been previously a AoA or AoR GM as the Supreme Grand Master, so like Azrael is the DA Master, AND the Supreme Grand Master, previously the Gran Master fo the Angels of Absolution was elected Supreme Grand Master as well as being the Grand Master of his Chapter

[ODM]

I think the point is that each Chapter has one Supreme Grand Master, and which one is also the Supreme Supreme could change.

 

I'm not sure I mind if that's what happens, although I imagine it would only pass among the Second founding Chapters? Only those founded from the original marines like the DA. (Gives them 5 chapters to choose from). Suffice it to say, the current Supreme Grand Master of the Unforgiven would have a Legion to draw from should the time come.

[Brother Immolator]

Not as GM for the DA, but it has been previously a AoA or AoR GM as the Supreme Grand Master, so like Azrael is the DA Master, AND the Supreme Grand Master, previously the Gran Master fo the Angels of Absolution was elected Supreme Grand Master as well as being the Grand Master of his Chapter

 

Were is that stated?Id like to have my hands on this source/

[ODM]

It hasn't happened per say.

 

What we have is one line in the 4th edition codex saying Azrael is first of Supreme Grand Master, master to the Successor master, or something close to that.

 

In discussing how the idea of a Legion could be expanded, it was suggested that maybe the role of "Supreme Supreme"tm could be voted on by the Inner Circle of all the Grand Masters.

 

It's a thought on how to expand the fluff.

 

The main idea is that we, DA and Successors still have an entire Legion of marines to draw from. This is probably usually a very light touch, guidance as they meet in counsel, but in extreme situations and when the Hunt for the Fallen is concerned he takes amore active role in orchestrating the Chapters.

[ODM]

It hasn't happened per say.

 

What we have is one line in the 4th edition codex saying Azrael is first of Supreme Grand Master, master to the Successor master, or something close to that.

 

In discussing how the idea of a Legion could be expanded, it was suggested that maybe the role of "Supreme Supreme"tm could be voted on by the Inner Circle of all the Grand Masters.

 

It's a thought on how to expand the fluff.

 

The main idea is that we, DA and Successors still have an entire Legion of marines to draw from. This is probably usually a very light touch, guidance as they meet in counsel, but in extreme situations and when the Hunt for the Fallen is concerned he takes amore active role in orchestrating the Chapters.

[Captain Semper]

Actually it'll be cool to have a Codex: Unforgiven rather than Dark Angels. Where the Supreme Grand Master of the Unforgiven can come from any Successor (thus emphasising they are still a Legion with no relative seniority). Just a thought...

[Brother Degas]

Ive read some where that the supreme GM picks his successor from the members of the inner circle, Ill try and remember the source.

 

also read that ragnar blackmane knows about the fallen so could well be internet rubbish....

[Octavulg]

Azrael's fluff says he was nominated by the previous SGM, IIRC.

[Brother Degas]

thanks Octo its on page 46. Nice way to play the legion theme up

[Captain Semper]

Yes, it also says that each SGM chooses his successor from the members of the Inner Circle. On p.11 of the current codex in the box titled "Circles within Circles" it says that each successor Chapter of the Second founding was (upon creation) led by a Master that was a member of the Inner Circle and continue to be so to this day (member of the Inner Circle that is, not the same person obviously...). In fact the exact wording in the same paragraph suggests that every successor's Chapter leadership (not just 2nd Founding) are Inner Circle members. So it stands to reason that since the SGM chooses his successor personally from among the Inner Circle it stands to reason that all members from all the Unforgiven Chapters are eligible for the position.

 

I like this line of background a lot...

 

The piece about Ragnar knowing is (I'm told) from the BL Space Wolf series... and it's true (I'm told). About time someone paid him a visit :D