Brother Landrain Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 1. What overall theme do we want emphasized with the DA? (example ba=blood, sw=wolf/viking) Many have mentioned Knightly themes and Orders... I love Knights and all of that mythology, but I do not see DA/Unforgiven as Knights per se. I see them more along the lines of anti-hero Knights, or even sort of Wild-West-Gunslingers. We have strict codes we follow, we are the good guys, but we also have our own agendas and motives. A good example, is Clint eastwood, in High Plains Drifter and Pale Rider. How to express that as a theme among an Army though I am not sure. As far as physical themes, I think we should have Swords and sword usage as one. Lastly, as a theme, tactical/Strategic superiority should be our forte. The Lion was said to be the best of all the primarchs at planning. We used to have an advantage with strategy rating, would like to see that return in some manner. Allowing the Unforgiven to roll 2 dice pick highest when rolling for first turn, or to sieze initiative, is one possibility. 2. How do we want existing units to change? What knew feats of heroism must our dark angels accomplish to draw equal with our brothers in other chapters once again? Give units a way to gain tactical advantages. My idea uses Deathwing Sgts granting USR's to PA troops. 3. If you have a unit that you would really like to see in the new codex explain how they would fit into the DA fluff, how do they fit within our circles? Specialist Deathwing and ravenwing squads to make pure DW/RW armies more diverse and fun to play/model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arioch Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Ragnar knows our secret? Riiiigth. Remember that book I mentioned, where every strategy was CHAARRGE!? That is the book where Ragnar learns it! And its so poorly written and have the worst plot ever. It is the :) most :P , stupid book I have ever read! I do not consider it canon. I dont see the need to set up knightly vs. monkish theme. There is nothing that prevents a knight from being a monk to, like the templars, hospitallers and the teutons. They where monks and knights combined. Knights should also not be percieved as a "redeeming" aspect of the chapter, because it is what made them fall. Their knightly aspect, their pride led them to the fall. Knights is little more than a title for a warrior elite, though the church invented many ideals for them. But at the end of the day, knights are brutal, often selfserving and not so much about helping the poor and protecting the weak. Thats what the church wanted them to be, thats what they hoped they would be- just, pious, noble and unselfish. But that was rarely the case. Depends on the centery though. Now Im not saying that I want the DA to be all about knights and stuff, but I just want to say that they have some knightly theme to them, perhabs not as much as they used to though. Isnt the cup of Malediction supossed to be like the holy grail? Didnt we use to have that as a relic? If there was no serious influence from Caliban, then why did the Dark Angels not become regular codexmarines? I could definetly see some Clint Eastwood in them, I think that was the original inspiration for the character of Cypher. What Azrael concerns, Im pretty sure he was chosen from within the chapter, although his past was shrouded in secrecy, as to make him mysterious. He was master of the deathwing at one point I believe. I dont see the succesors loosing anything by becoming a legion. They are still chapters to some degree, and have their own traditions and styles of fighting, the only thing is, that they answer to the Supreme Grand Master. None of their traits or characteristics would suffer from this I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Degas Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 I thought ragnar knowing was rubbish, whats the book? I picture the inner circle as arising from the legions original command staff, each commander taking 1 successor chapter with the original SGM coming from the DA, afterwards its the nominated deputy/successor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Is it "Space Wolf" trilogy? Not sure really... I'm protecting myself by not reading (how 40kish is that?). Anyway since we are talking archetypes here I looked up the WD issue where BT's are introduced (issue 311 UK edition if anyone cares to look it up). It says a few interesting things: "They (BTs) are essentially the Space Marines they were 10,000 years ago. Closer to the Legions of old than many other Chapters a lot of whom have turned inwards like the Dark Angels, who look to their past, or become their own worst enemy by keeping secrets." In this line it hints (more than hints actually) that DAs suffered from a "discontinuity" after the HH. Not that close to the Legion of old... "Real World History was important in establishing the feel of these dour champions" and later "They share themes with the Knight Templars of history, those that protected the pilgrim routes to the holy lands. Even the tabards the Black Templars wear are similar to those which adorned historical Templars, emblazoned by the Black Templars cross." See where I'm going with this? The Historic crusader knight theme is BTs NOT DAs. And another one from Mark Gibbons - same source: "We had to do two things: give them (BTs) an individual identity and get some clear water between them and the Dark Angels who, whilst similarly robed, have a monastic feel" Emphasis mine of course... The same source later mentions: "Some of the (BT) models have tabards. This further emphasises the knightly aspect so intrisic to the culture of Black Templars.We kept the legs visible though so they (BTs) were different from the Dark Angels who wear long robes." So BT = Crusading knights archetype, DA= Introvert Monks archetype. Funnily I like it that way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 The two aren't necessarily incompatible. You can have introverted monastic crusader types. Or did you think those conspiracies about the Templars came out of nowhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Codex Introverted Monks, coming soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droma Posted June 23, 2011 Author Share Posted June 23, 2011 Let's not forget it's been a long time since 3rd edition and things can easily be changed. As this thread shows there are a ton of different directions that the DA could legitimately be taken in so that leaves me hopeful that the next DA codex will be unique and interesting compared to anything else out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arioch Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 The abomination of a book is called "Sons of Fenris" I believe. I read it because I saw it had Dark Angels in it, but what it really had was a bad parody at best. Thats what happends when spacewolf fans write a book...eehhv :sick: ´Sigh´ there are many different kinds of "crusading knights". As I mentioned before, there were many orders of monkish knights, that fought many different places. And there can be as many ways of using that "inspiration" in a fictional contects. The templars of reality does not equal the Templars of 40k. Its a crude archtype at most. They also mixed some teutonnic order into it. Most of their names are german as far as I know, the Knight Templars where mostly french. And they use the cross of the Hospitallers....the list goes on. Sure you could say that they are all crusading knights combined. But that does not mean Dark Angels have no right to a knightly theme, they were there first. We all now that a lot of things has been stolen from the chapter in regards of inspiration, rules, stuff. I cant help but feel that codex´ like Blood Angel and Grey knights entered territories that would normally be reserved for the DA. What you have posted, Captain Semper, also shows that they had to make sure that Dark Angels and Black Templars did not appear to be the same thing. Would they have done this if they had not been a little similiar in certain things? I love the monkish and monastic look of the Dark Angels, and it is the thing that defines them most. But if they where just monks, they would not fight. European monks did not fight, they got :P in the :P by vikings. We need the knightly side, a proud side that has a feud with these vikings and remember the proud past of the chapter. Now I used those angry things again...I apologise, but at least its better than swearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Darius Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I thought ragnar knowing was rubbish, whats the book? The book is "Sons of Fenrus" I don't think Ragnar does know. The DA character says to Ragnar. I need this guy, you need to hand him over to me, and I can't tell you why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Now we're on the right track! DA are like this... http://imagecache6.allposters.com/LRG/29/2947/7CMRD00Z.jpg (Hey, those are the GOOD guys! They seem really friendly!) :) ...combined with this... http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ML4448rQNNg/Tc3y...er-original.jpg "You're going to make me take this collar off, aren't you." (Hey, wait a minute...) :) ...combined with this... http://images.wikia.com/resin/images/d/d8/Dr_Doom.jpg (Uh oh! Now you've done it!) Awww yeah! ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droma Posted June 23, 2011 Author Share Posted June 23, 2011 Something along those lines I think lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Codex Introverted Monks, coming soon. ;) :lol: :lol: This is of course not what I meant... But it's so funny! Anyway instead of arguing what kind of monks DAs are maybe we can shift the argument on what kind of war they wage. The dilema here is either an overt crusade style war (hence the archetype of the crusader knight) or a covert war that refers more to secret service kind of thing (from Spanish Inquisition to KGB).. Maybe they are both to some extent but which is dominant? I always thought of DAs as really scary in a non-descript way. The way you cannot really pinpoint by their overt actions - but you know you should be scared of them. Their senior chaplains are called "Interoggator" for chrissakes... As a footnote, when BTs came out I thought they'll have a rough time carving a niche that partially overlaps with the already well established DAs fluff... Now I sort of feel DAs need to try to put "clear water" betweeen them and the BT - and the latter have not been touched by GW since 2005!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Degas Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 thanks all, the books now on the banned list. I agree, semper. The DA should be unnerving more than out right scary, they are space marines, scary enough but thir quiet and unpredictable manner makes the people who see them uneasy. edit: clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Darius Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 thanks all, the books now on the banned list. I agree, semper. The DA should be unnerving more than out right scary, they are space marines, scary enough but thir quiet and unpredictable manner makes the people who see them uneasy. edit: clarity Actually I would recommend it for a DA fan to read. It gives some good insight into how others outside of the DA may view them. It is one of the few books that deals directly with the fallen, and gives a good indication into just how difficult and all encompassing the hunt is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exsulis81 Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 By the time the Emperor arrived on Caliban, there was only one knightly order. Sure, the training resulted in some very well prepared recruits, especially as they trained using their own modified versions of standard space marine gear- bolt pistols, chainswords, power armor. A thousand to two thousand among a Legion numbering over 10,000 is not a majority by any means. New Caliban marines were not filling the ranks for many a year. They recruit every generation, not every year. Recruiting from staggered generation would be a slight stretch, but not a big one, and seeing as joining the Legion was such a new and prestigious thing, that would likely have happened. Even still, there would have only been a few recruitments from Caliban before its destruction. Lets do some math shall we. Lets say that the Legion Had 10,000 at the time the Big E made it to Caliban, and roughly 2,000-4,000 we made, or augmented into Space marines. Now we know per the HH that new recruit waves were coming into legion fleets pretty regularly. With the accelerated process that exacerbated certain legions' defects that recruit to full battle brother wasn't as long as it is now. 5-10 years verses something closer to 100 years. With that kind of creation legions would be able to maintain campaign losses, and still be battle worthy fleets. Per the HH novel Fallen Angel each release of new battle brothers was in the ball park of 2,000 per training cycle, and in 53 years they had completed 18 training cycles. Which would be 48,000-50,000 Dark Angels marines with the fleet. Battle losses would lower it but then we have the Angels of Darkness Novel which implies that there were indeed a lot of Dark angels marines. (At least 23 chapters) So no matter how you figure it there would be more Caliban Marines than Terran Marines. So if we go with that #(23 chapters) then there were about 20,000 battle brothers with the Lion during the crusade. And a Majority of them would be from Caliban as the Legion would stop recieving recruit from Terra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droma Posted June 25, 2011 Author Share Posted June 25, 2011 As far as legion size it's been stated ADB the author of First Heretic that official legion size is 100,000 marines. Putting the total number of marines at roughly two million before the heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Knight + Monks = the poor knight of christ blah blah blah the templar order (knights templar) who where loyal to none but there own and paid the price for it (the first friday the 13). I'd like to see a raven wing option in the scout section. What steps does a chaplain take to become an IC Outside organizations that have been infiltrated by the unforgiven as a whole the admech the ][ and others all in there search for any info on the fallen. (who would love to see a DA lord inqusitor(or id it just me)) More blade work swords and such walking the circel for example.Something like this Thats all i have for the time being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Just a sudden thought, perhaps the Dark Angels have networks of agents, including Rouge Traders and other types of people, that supply them certian infomation, or are contacted every now and again to conduct a certain operation for the DA on worlds where the presence of Astartes would not go unoticed. Just a random idea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 That's already come up, and the maintenance of the Dark Angels information network was expanded upon as one of the potential duties of the Master of the Watch, if I recall correctly. It's buried...somewhere...among the threads here, and I think it is a great fluff idea seeing as the DA have outposts scattered hither and yon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Degas Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 it was part of the project unforgiven themes discussion I think but my search fu sucks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Same here. :angry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAZ_AV_NZ Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Great discussion going on here. Ultimately Id like to see more background on all the characters. Asmodi I think will be an important figure. His Blades of reason will be nasty - and a big bit of fluff will be about him. I can see him being in a 6th edition box set. Would make sense. Dark angels armies - successor armies are based in the stories we see with Chaplains leading them and the Chaplains seem to be the the ones assisting / directing and winning battles when it relates to the fallen/chaos. Refer to Imperial Armour for that. Just to throw a funny one in the works - Az wears the Lion Helm as we know. As it was worn by the Primarch how does it fit Az? Primarch's were bigger than normal marines so Id imagine there heads were bigger. Granted if it was a helm made by technology from back then given now lost fine but Az current use of one doesnt make sense unless it was worn by someone close to the Lion - one of his elite? his head is too small. Additonally If your primarch had a weapon . armour would you not consider it a holy relic to the Chapter and not something to run around with? Ie like the spear of russ etc. While Space Wolves Chapter Cmdrs would like to run around spearing Thousand Sons with it they are not allowed to use it obviously. Its there for Leman Russ when he returns. Ragnar got a kicking for losing it big time. The fluff needs to be a bit better I think for DA and people really need to learn to write something good. The last DA codex if you read it - is very basic and rubbish especially about the successors. hardly any thought put into it. The histories are so vague with DA fighting alien races never heard of with very vague references ie" The leiths particular brand of subjucation" Which was prehaps maybe the Leiths overpriced minis in there sector and the fact they didnt ship GW products to the Souther end of the galaxy LOL No wonder the DA successor chapter fought so hard to stop that - total heresy I reckon. In saying that given that the DA are still evolving with the Novels they probably were struggling with the theme and direction to take them in. The HH has given a bit more direction to alot of the fuff for all chapters. I like to keep positive about any changes and hope we get good fluff, good codex upgrades with S6 Power weapons all round etc along wih other changes. We have these lovely heavenfall blade that are low S weapons S4 for all currently - doesnt make sense. The heavenfall blade are supposed to be special. Special all right at S4. DA should be wearing special needs shirts right about now. Crackup!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Just a sudden thought, perhaps the Dark Angels have networks of agents, including Rouge Traders and other types of people, that supply them certian infomation, or are contacted every now and again to conduct a certain operation for the DA on worlds where the presence of Astartes would not go unoticed. Just a random idea... That's already come up, and the maintenance of the Dark Angels information network was expanded upon as one of the potential duties of the Master of the Watch, if I recall correctly. It's buried...somewhere...among the threads here, and I think it is a great fluff idea seeing as the DA have outposts scattered hither and yon. This is actually an amazing background line that is already there - but largely unexplored... As opposed to UM that effectively have a utopian sub-Empire in the Eastern Fringe on which they can rely for resources and commodities to support their war effort, the DAs could have an unseen empire that is not geographically contained but it also provides them with resources for their covert war... Not materiel but information! Whole worlds or systems might be in the grip of the DA without them even knowing so. Local balances of power might change overnight to suit the needs and purposes of the DAs without of course being overtly involved. A "dark" ever-expanding sub-Empire, only known to be so to certain individuals in the Rock :). Great discussion going on here. Ultimately Id like to see more background on all the characters. Asmodi I think will be an important figure. His Blades of reason will be nasty - and a big bit of fluff will be about him. I can see him being in a 6th edition box set. Would make sense. Dark angels armies - successor armies are based in the stories we see with Chaplains leading them and the Chaplains seem to be the the ones assisting / directing and winning battles when it relates to the fallen/chaos. Refer to Imperial Armour for that. I definetely want to see Asmodai played up!!! Funnily enough our current codex does not have an Int. Chaplain special character! I mean c'mon!!! Asmodai to me epitomizes all that's different and unique about DAs. He is the embodiment of the secret war and the executive leader of the effort. Maybe not the overall leader of his kind (I was never quite convinced why Sapphon should get the top job) or the deep thinker that the Librarians are or the inspirational leader on the battlefield that other Chaplains (Sapphon again!) or Masters are. But I can just picture the Deathwing Terminators parting in awe to allow Asmodai to approach the recently captured Fallen. A moment that even Deathwing Terminators feel their stomach turning upside down in the presense of fear itself... ***end of poetry*** The fluff needs to be a bit better I think for DA and people really need to learn to write something good. Amen to that Brother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 In defense of Jervis, he writes perfectly good and balanced rules. It's just that he errs on the side of caution where everyone else seems to err on the side of overpowered. If he wrote all the codices, it'd be fine. :) A little bland, but probably quicker. Jervis believe simplicity makes good game systems. He's not wrong. But 40K has never favored simplicity, and so the fans certainly don't expect it. In regard to the DA being in C:SM - maybe. They'd need to be a lot more distinct than they ever have been in order to reach the point where they couldn't fit in, that's certain. It's certainly possible to produce a distinct and unique DA codex, so I'd imagine it'll be done. I'm just not sure it'll be what people expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Degas Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 the secret empire is very alpha legion and probably should be avoided, however the legion theme might play up here as you could argue that resources are divided up between chapters so you can have an overtly home AoA planet supporting the DA etc. Likewise the DA could share some of thier secret rock tec with successors when needed. Who knows what goodies are in the heart of the rock... Also I thik the DA would be wasted in the C:SM, they are a lot more complex than either SW (vikings in space) or BA (vampires in space). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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