Droma Posted June 26, 2011 Author Share Posted June 26, 2011 I was reading through some of ADB's posts and found something interesting but may not be relevant to the current discussion. Sometime next year there will be a horus heresy anthology(ala Tales of Heresy/Age of Darkness) that will contain four novella's about certain primarchs. Apparently Gav Thorpe will have one in there about the Lion. That is still a long ways into the future but if our codex is not out then I expect it to give more incite into the organization of the legion and the influence of the Lion about what came after the Heresy. At the very least I expect it to go a way towards clearing up just how much calaban had an influence over the Lion and the legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Found it: *Grand Master of the Watch- assumes responsibility of making sure that all DA holdings are well guarded. This seems more likely to be a separate posting, as the DA are known for having outposts scattered all over the place so as to keep a watch on their recruiting planets and other areas of interest. Then there are also all of the hidden outposts responsible for tacking information related to the Fallen. For Dark Angels at least, being the Grand Master of the Watch has a whole other connotation to it so for as what is being watched. This position could very much be the Dark Angels equivalent of a spymaster, which is a cool idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Excedis Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 If I may throw my two cents in here. I may be a BA player but the DA have always been an oddity, and interest to me merely out of curiosity. They were always shady and distant, you knew they were something different but you couldn't always put your finger on it until you went behind the scenes. To me that screams out hashashins, or assassins. They were the secretive but known militant arm of the Muslim church during the medieval ages. They were very much monks and fighters. They could take on whoever they wanted with whatever they wanted. They had the hidden blade as their signature weapon but in this case its the sword for the DA. They wore robes into and outside of combat. Even over top any armor they wore. Most people knew they existed and who each one was, but no one really knew what they do adn they often disappeared randomly. They were split into orders and had an immense amount of their own secrets many of which were only known to their upper echelons. he DA's seem so close to them its not really funny. But I think that is rightly amazing and a well done comparison (if by accident). Now I know many of you are saying "Hey! That's straight from Assassin's Creed!! That's not historical!!! What are you talking about?!?!". But also remember that that game is based on historical fact and then had some things thrown in (albeit very well integrated :D ) to make the story line they have. I am sorry for ranting or offending some of you since I am a BA player ;) but I do take interest in your lineage. But this is also just my opinion, so I could be dead wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droma Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 I think you bring up a good comparison and it's something else to consider. The DA seem to be drawn from all sorts of medieval culture than from any one thing in particular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 @Brother Excedis: I think what you describe is closer to my vision of DAs than say their historic opponents - the Templar knights... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODM Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Now I know many of you are saying "Hey! That's straight from Assassin's Creed!! That's not historical!!! What are you talking about?!?!". But also remember that that game is based on historical fact and then had some things thrown in (albeit very well integrated :) ) to make the story line they have. Well, it's based on fact in that there were crusaders and an order of Hashassin in the middle east. The rest, not so much. But, history be damned, it's a cool game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Excedis Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 It is a very good set of games. I have to go back and playt he first two :) @Captain Semper: Cool. I do believe that would be an incredible way to portray a chapter of space marines. and your DA's have a lot to work with with regards to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderHammer Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Hey guys, great thread! Just wanted to throw out some pictures, symbols and terms that I have always associated with the DA, maybe they bring some new ideas to the discussion. So in no particular order: The winged sword of the emperor, Angels that bring death, a fundamental belief that killing is a holy task, Dark knights, Killing the enemies of the empire rather than defending the empire, hate rather than love, bitterness, highly efficient strategies and cold blooded execution, unapproachableness, merciless, "never forgive, never forget", grim. If I had to summarize these images in one or two words, which is very hard for me and I am not sure it is even necessary to come up with a summary, but then I think I would turn to the chapter's name: Dark Angels. Also wanted to mention the last 40k radio show where Rick Priestley talks about how the Space Marines originate in some aspects from the warriors of Chaos! And finally, wanted to point out that (if memory serves me right) in the same WD that originally brought Plasma cannons, the Master of the RW and other cool stuff to the DA via FAQ, there was also a short story about a DA squad unleashing all kinds of hell and literally running through walls in order to save imperial citizens. Later the DA sarge finds out though that the citizens were ogryns (or whatever they are called) which makes him consider the efforts worthless. So racism associated with the DA in the story. Never seen that association again though. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 It is not racism. Ogryns are ab-humans, as in abnormals. That they are mutants is why Ogryns are loathed by the Dark Angels. The Dark Angels fight for "humanity". Ogryns are not seen to be "humanity". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Degas Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 they might have viewed them as tainted so why bother wasting time on them given what the da do to fallen and anyone with a hint of taint... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Well the chapter didnt use to be quite tollerant back in the 3rd ed.Remember that we wouldnt side with any army that had 'mutants':Ogryns,Ratlings etc...I would like to add space puppies here but that would be too much hehehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 And it hasn't change... The 3rd ed. codex did a lot to further shape the DA perception despite it's small size. For example the "shootiness" of DAs was introduced in 3rd (many still perceive DAs as a chapter with a shooting bias despite not particularly reflected in current 4th ed. rules) or that Deathwing being a circle of knowledge rather than just another name for the 1st company... The xenophobia and the dislike of abhumans was also establsihed in the 3rd ed. Codex and has not been countered explicitly in the 4th - so it still stands as far as I'm concerned. Not bad for a 23 page codex... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coot83 Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I too would love to see some more dark secrets in their fluff. It would be cool to see some more Lion and Leman Russ confrontation, I feel like DA is down on the score about taking garbage from them...no offense to any wolves. Coot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAG42 Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I too would love to see some more dark secrets in their fluff. It would be cool to see some more Lion and Leman Russ confrontation, I feel like DA is down on the score about taking garbage from them...no offense to any wolves. Coot I don't feel like the DA are down. Russ sucker punches the Lion, extended fight ensues, Russ after not being able to win thinks it's funny some how, get's his ass knocked out. As I see it we're up 1-0. Unless there's other stuff out there I'm missing between these 2, important info like the " Lion and the Wolf " story. I think I've read almost everything DA related though. IA vols, HH books, Index Astartes vols. I-IV. But there is always something new I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coot83 Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I think you have it covered as I have only read 3 books on them and the dexes. Its not so much physically that I was concerned with, but it seems to me that there is alot of rivalry with the wolves. Im not too familiar with the wolves fluff but I feel like they are always looking down on the DA, in any event it would be cool to see some more fluff about it. I guess I just get tired of the arrogance of the local wolf players in my area. Coot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAG42 Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I think you have it covered as I have only read 3 books on them and the dexes. Its not so much physically that I was concerned with, but it seems to me that there is alot of rivalry with the wolves. Im not too familiar with the wolves fluff but I feel like they are always looking down on the DA, in any event it would be cool to see some more fluff about it. I guess I just get tired of the arrogance of the local wolf players in my area. Coot I got ya. The Wolf players have a hypocrite for a Primach. Here's why. After all his beechen and moaning about 1k sons, he allows his rune priests to keep on going and if memory serves he, himself killed some 1k sons with his form of psychic howl at that library place. Plus it's all in good fun anyways. They are only dumb mutts after all..... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coot83 Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 That does seem ironic and funny. Thanks for the info...btw your sig the dark fortress has some good stuff in there, might have to browse for a bit. Coot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Fluffwise, I would not mind the new codex focusing upon the secretive and monkish nature of the Dark Angels. These are the guys who vacate from the middle of a battle, no explanation given, to pursue their own agenda. Not to mention the hints about taking out a Templar fleet. They have dark secrets and do dark deeds to keep them. I personally dislike the "secret legion aspect" that was, as far I can tell, introduced in the latest codex. I find it hard to believe that such control could be exercised across such as a vast space. That they all hunt the fallen and share the secret is a given. That they somehow all bow to the core leader not so much. I think emphasis on how this "Circles with Circles" organization is beginning to wind in on itself should be emphasized. Secrets have a nasty habit of breeding more secrets, perhaps even from one another. Given Chapters autonomy, give them leadership with a clandestine goal, hunting faller former members, they may begin to wonder who they can truly trust. Visually: Monkish robes and or cowls, bring back the banners from 2nd edition, otherwise is cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODM Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Fluffwise, I would not mind the new codex focusing upon the secretive and monkish nature of the Dark Angels. These are the guys who vacate from the middle of a battle, no explanation given, to pursue their own agenda. Not to mention the hints about taking out a Templar fleet. They have dark secrets and do dark deeds to keep them. I personally dislike the "secret legion aspect" that was, as far I can tell, introduced in the latest codex. I find it hard to believe that such control could be exercised across such as a vast space. That they all hunt the fallen and share the secret is a given. That they somehow all bow to the core leader not so much. I think emphasis on how this "Circles with Circles" organization is beginning to wind in on itself should be emphasized. Secrets have a nasty habit of breeding more secrets, perhaps even from one another. Given Chapters autonomy, give them leadership with a clandestine goal, hunting faller former members, they may begin to wonder who they can truly trust. Visually: Monkish robes and or cowls, bring back the banners from 2nd edition, otherwise is cool. As far as the secret legion goes, the Successors first appeared in the second edition with a half page blurb. It mentions that they have Inner Circles too, closely coordinate the hunt for the fallen among all the unforgiven, and that all the successors' chapter masters are frequently seen on the rock for summits. The additional line that Supreme Grand Master Azrael is master to the other Grand Masters appears first in the 4th edition, but it certainly doesn't contradict what's been known since Angels of Death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 The DA and SW have, according to old fluff, gone to war six (or nine, I can't remember) times. I totally want that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Degas Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 a bit more depth about run ins with other chapters might be fun and how they have hidden the legions secrets :whistling: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coot83 Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 I agree I think that would be even better to see some interaction from the DA with other chapters as the DA seems to be so low key about themselves. It could be a good way to see how other chapters really see them as well. Coot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HvitrValdyr Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 I too would love to see some more dark secrets in their fluff. It would be cool to see some more Lion and Leman Russ confrontation, I feel like DA is down on the score about taking garbage from them...no offense to any wolves. Coot I don't feel like the DA are down. Russ sucker punches the Lion, extended fight ensues, Russ after not being able to win thinks it's funny some how, get's his ass knocked out. As I see it we're up 1-0. Unless there's other stuff out there I'm missing between these 2, important info like the " Lion and the Wolf " story. I think I've read almost everything DA related though. IA vols, HH books, Index Astartes vols. I-IV. But there is always something new I guess. I am gona give you a +1 to Jonson's score here by select quoting from another topic and contributor: And we aren't even talking about the several editions of stories describing how Jonson was loyal and Luthor corrupted and misled by Chaos, or that when Leman Russ was slowing down the Space Wolves and Dark Angels' advance to terra, Jonson was furious and blamed him for the Legions not arriving in time, which culminated in a duel between Jonson and Russ, which ended when Russ chose not to defend against an Attack of Jonson and was pierced through one of his hearts... ...I think that bit is from old "Epic Space Marine" days, and has not been repeated much in later editions. However, I think that Leman Russ was the one insisting to stop on their way to Terra (IIRC that was when the "Leman Russ Battle Tank" STC was discovered and named in his honour) has been repeated. But note that both times it is only because Russ lets him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 The Lion & the Wolf story highlights the different mentality of the two chapters and gives a bit of background on how they interact today - namely they have a ritual/mock combat of two champions whenever they meet. What else is there? I don't think it should be overplayed or turn into something deeper. The two chapters have tons of defining features on their own - they hardly need to be defined against each other as "opposites" - because that's where I think this is going... Especially combined with the c/c bias of the Wolves and the shooting perception that exists for DAs. Furthermore given the secretive nature of DAs I doubt new relations would have developed with other non-Unforgiven Chapters post Heresy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moi_a_mania Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Monks, Knights, Space Puppies Oh My! I would like to see some fluff where the DA and all of the Successor Chapters (DIY and others) take off on a grand adventure after a large group of the Fallen, Cypher, or a larger group of the Fallen led by Cypher. I agree with other posts that Cypher needs to be expanded a bit - what is his endgame? Does he secretly wish to rejoin the DA? We've learned from the 4th Edition that not all Fallen DA were evil. Is Cypher evil? Does he want to bring down the Emperor's First Legion? If he is a Fallen, why hasn't he exposed the DA yet? I would also like to see some more battle stories between the DA, their Successors, and other Xenos races such as the Necron or Tau. The Smurfs seem to have a battle story for every race out there. Not that I want to copy them, but I would like to see how our chapter holds up against these other Xenos races. I know we love the 'Nids and the Orks, but how would we fare against the new and improved DE? Finally, I would love to see stories of our honored dead who built the chapter with their sacrifices. One of my favorite stories is about Vt. Sgt. Naaman and how he sacrificed himself in order for the DA to achieve victory. Legendary heroes sacrificing 1,000 lives to save 1,000,000 lives AND capturing the Fallen or someone who has knowledge of said Fallen. Who are they? Who did they fight? Why were they there? Were they successful? How are they ranked in the annals of DA Lore and History? What Companies/Chapters did they lead? Did they have any Ancient Tech that can no longer be created? The DA, at least to me, are the Chapter everyone fears. The dark, brooding, silent, highly skilled and determined group capturing victory out of the jaws of defeat. Our stories and fluff should capture the essence of that idea. If the DA were a character from G.I. Joe, they would be Snake Eyes. And the Fallen: Storm Shadow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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