Legatus Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Having browsed through a few older GW rulebooks lately, I have come across a few old descriptions of the Ultramarines Chapter. That reminded me of the widely held belief that prior to 4th and 5th Edition the Ultramarines were not all that featured, and other Chapters like the Crimson Fists or the Black Templars were much more prominent in earlier editions. A view largely based on the fact that those two Chapters were depicted on the rulebooks of those editions. It is also a common accusation against Matt Ward that he had introduced a heavy favouritism for the Ultramarines Chapter within the 40K universe. The following quotes from the different eras should dispell both those views, as indeed GW had decided very early on that the "Big Four" would be the most featured Chapters. My original idea was to compare the various descriptions of the Big Four Chapters throughout the Editions, complete with how much products would be dedicated to them, but for now I will focus on the Ultramarines. -- The History of the Ultramarines throughout the Editions -- - 1987: Rogue Trader (1st Edition of Warhammer 40,000) The "Ultra Marines" are one of the 12 Chapters depicted on page 168/169 of the Rogue Trader Rulebook - 1988: First ever "Index Astartes" article in White Dwarf 97 The Ultramarines are the first of the Chapters to receive a detailed background description in an Index Astartes article. Though back then their background was very different from the one later established in 2nd Edition. - 1989: Space Marine The Ultramarines, among other Chapters, are featured in several of the short stories throughout the rulebook, describing various engagements during the Horus Heresy. - 1990: Boardgame Space Crusade The Ultramarines are one of the three Chapters in this game, next to the Blood Angels and the Imperial Fists. - 1991: Space Marine supplement Armies of the Imperium "There are a great many Chapters scattered throughout the galaxy. We have chosen to describe four in detail: the Space Wolves, the Dark Angels, the Ultramarines and the Blood Angels. These are probably the most famous Chapters of all, and also show how diverse the Space Marines can be in organisation and character."(Armies of the Imperium, p. 6) The Ultramarines are one of the four Chapters featured in the "Armies of the Imperium" supplement, next to the Space Wolves, the Dark Angels and the Blood Angels, and this might be the establishing appearance of the "Big Four". "The Ultramarines are the best example of an orthodox Space Marine Chapter. (...) The Ultramarines (...) have retained every detail of the Codex Astartes intact and have become famous for their rigid adherance to its ancient orthodoxy. This means the Chapter is a very good place to start, as all other Chapter organisations represent developments of the Codex Astartes or complete revisions of it."(Armies of the Imperium, p. 8) - 1991: Boardgame Ultra Marines Aside from being the Chapter providing the title for the game, the Ultramarines are one of four Chapters featured in this game. The other Chapters are the Space Wolves, the Dark Angels and the Blood Angels, so it is another appearance of the Big Four. "The Ultramarines are the most famous of all the Space Marine Chapters. In their long and glorious history they have fought in all of the most important battles of the Imperium's history. They are an extremely disciplined Chapter, and stick religiously to the rules for uniform and organisation laid down thousands of years ago by the Emperor himself."(Description from the Scout Squad card of the Ultramarines) - 1993: 2nd Edition of Warhammer 40,000 The Ultramarines as well as the other of the Big Four, the Space Wolves, the Dark Angels and the Blood Angels, are featured in their own Codex in this Edition. - 1995: Codex Ultramarines for 2nd Edition WH40K "The Ultramarines are the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters. From the dawn of the Imperium they have served the Emperor with loyalty and ferocity that no others can match. Their Primarch, Roboute Guilliman, wrote the Codex Astartes, and the Chapter has exemplified its teachings ever since. The Ultramarines were instrumental in the defeat of Hive Fleet Behemoth, saving the Imperium from almost certain destruction by the Tyranids. They are the warriors of Macragge in the realm of Ultramar, and in faith and valour they are unmatched."(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, back cover) - 1997: PC game "Final Liberation" In this PC version of the Epic games, the Ultramarines are the Space Marine Chapter whose forces can be used in addition to the Imperial Guard forces. - 1998: PC game "Chaos Gate" In this turn based tactical game, the player would play squads of Ultramarines. - 1998: 3rd Edition of Warhammer 40,000 Though the Rulebook does not focus on any one Chapter in particular, a small force of Ultramarines is used for the example battle on the pages 18-23 of the book. - 1998: Codex Space Marines for 3rd Edition of WH40K More of the models shown in this Codex are of the Ultramarines than of any other Chapter, and they get two Special Characters, where the Imperial Fists, the Crimson Fists, the Black Templars and the Salamanders each get one. Due to a general lack of background in this Codex, there is no stronger focus on the Ultramarines. - 2003: PC game "Fire Warrior" While the player plays a Tau in this game, he interacts with Characters from the Ultramarines Chapter. - 2004: 4th Edition of Warhammer 40,000 - 2004: Codex Space Marines for 4th Edition of WH40K The models shown in this Codex are predominantly Ultramarines, and the background describes the recent history of the Ultramarines. The Ultramarines get three Special Characters and two special units, while the Imperial Fists and the Raven Guard each get one Special Character. - 2007: PC game "Squad Command" A tactical wargame where the player plays a small force of Ultramarines. - 2008: 5th Edition of Warhammer 40,000 Among the Chapters listed and briefly described on the pages 134/135, the Ultramarines are listed first, and described with the following tag line: "The Ultramarines are the exemplars of Space Marines, the purest and noblest of all the Adeptus Astartes. It was the founding Primarch of the Ultramarines, Roboute Guilliman, who established the Codex Astartes, the august tome that laid the foundation for the Space Marine Chapters. Many hold the Ultramarines to be the rightful heirs not only of Guilliman, but of the Emperor himself."(5th Edition Rulebook, p. 134) - 2008: Codex Space Marines for 5th Edition of WH40K The models shown in this Codex are predominantly of the Ultramarines, and the background is largely about the Ultramarines, with most of it adopted directly from their 2nd Edition Codex. The Ultramarines get six Special Characters, while the Salamanders, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, White Scars and Crimson Fists each get one. Even though other Chapters have also gotten much more space in this Codex, and less of the total space is dedicated to the Ultramarines than in the 4th Edition Codex, this Codex is received as the most Ultramarine-centered Codex since 2nd Edition. - 2011: PC game "Space Marine" In this upcoming action game, the player will play as an Ultramarines Captain. CONCLUSION The Ultramarines were singled out for special attention all the way back in 1988, when they were the first of the Chapters to be fleshed out with an Index Astartes article. They were usually among the Chapters that were featured in images and stories in the GW publications ever since, prior to 2nd Edition most notably in the board games "Space Crusade" and Ultra Marines". Since the "Epic Space Marine" supplement "Armies of the Imperium" they were established as one of the "Big Four", and the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Ultramarines have received the majority of the Space Marine coverage in the following editions. In the "Ultra Marines" boardgame from 1991 it was first coined that they were the "most famous" of all the Chapters, and similar descriptions were given in the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines from 1995 ("the greatest") and the 5th Edition Rulebook from 2008 (the purest and noblest"). The favouritism of the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines was not the creation of Matt Ward, even if he may have emphasized it more than it had been in the 3rd and 4th Edition, and even if it may not have been put in context with other Chapters as explicitely before. The gist of the favourable desctiprion of the Ultramarines had been established in the early days of the hobby. The Space Wolves are unruly Space Vikings, the Blood Angels have to fight their genetic flaw, the Dark Angels have a sectre past, and the Ultramarines are the shining example fo what a Space Marines Chapter can be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gore-Child Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 You missed the ultramarines movie :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Very little mention of the Crimson Fists, the previous GW mascot, or the presence of other chapters within products either. If the fact they keep appearing in things means they're the current mascot then the argument could be made the long neglected Iron Hands are the current favourites because they turn up in every codex. The author also doesn't seem to understand half the problems and complaints behind the fifth edition codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793150 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 Very little mention of the Crimson Fists, the previous GW mascot The Crimson Fists were basically known for being on the cover of the Rogue Trader Rulebook, and for being the RTB01 Plastic Marine Box Cover models. So they had some initial coverage in 1987/1988. But right around that time GW decided that the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Ultramarines would henceforth be the exemplary Space Marine Chapters. After that there is practically no mention of the Crimson Fists for quite some time. The 1989 "Space Marine" did not include any stories or images with Crimson Fists whatsoever (well, it was set during the Heresy, after all). The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, which included a full page for the Imperial Fists, and also had a picture of a few other Chapters, including the Black Templars, did not have a Crimson Fists Marine. The Crimson Fists could hardly be seen as GW's mascot at any time in the past, aside from maybe teh initial couple of months after the release of Rogue Trader. or the presence of other chapters within products either. I think you are being a bit unfair here. I did mention the other Chapters that were mainly involved in the board games and got special characters in the Marine Codices. I only did not list all the 12 Chapters that were mentioned in the RT rulebook and the other Chapters mentioned in the Space Marine stories (it was basically the big four plus White Scars and Salamanders). If the fact they keep appearing in things The fact is that they are not merely "appearing" in things, but that they are either usually one of the three or four Chapters that are being used, or they are the sole focus of the product. Rogue Trader <-- one of the twelve initial Chapters First ever Index Astartes <-- well, only Ultramarines Space Marine <-- one of the six mentioned loyalist Chapters (and it seems most stories and images are about Ultramarines) Space Crusade <-- one of the three Chapters Armies of the Imperium <-- one of the four Chapters Ultra Marines <-- one of the four Chapters, and in the title 2nd Edition Codices <-- one of the four Chapters that got one Final Liberation, Chaos gate <-- only Ultramarines in both games 3rd Edition Codex <-- main featured Chapter Fire Warrior <-- featured as NPCs 4th Edition Codex <-- main featured Chapter Squad Command <-- only Ultramarines 5th Edition Codex <-- main featurec Chapter The Ultramarines have a long history of being featured in various products, ever since the 1st Edition of Warhammer 40K. The Iron Hands, in comparison, almost did not exist in 2nd and early 3rd Edition. The author also doesn't seem to understand half the problems and complaints behind the fifth edition codex. Maybe the author does not understand the problems because he has grown up with the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Edition GW materials mentioned in this thread? So any complains about the space being devoted to the Ultramarines, or them being described as more favoured than other Chapters could only be answered with a "well, duh"? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 We don't understand because the complaints have little more merit than complaints about the sky, or blueberries being blue. "well, duh" That's the way the first 4 editions did it. That's the way 5th edition does it. And it's worked out pretty well so far. Birds fly, grass grows, the sun shines, and Ultramarines are GW's flagship Chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradill Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 The reason that no issues with the fifth edition codex are mentioned is because, well, to be frank, there aren't any. People tend to buck against what is seen as 'mainstream' for no reason than it is 'mainstream'. Ultramarines have been GW's flagship for at least as long as I've been in the hobby (16 years or so now) and almost certainly longer. Those who have an issue with the 5th edition codex in regards to the frequent Ultramarine sections are jumping on the "mainstream is bad, lets all go and be alternative together" bandwagon. You can gather as many individual, quirky, eccentric, traitor gene-seed sourced chapters as you like, the Ultramarines are still the best of the best in regards to pure, marine styled killing.. Paradill Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Also of note would be the Space Marine Paint Set circa late 1989 (booklet was printed in WD119) which featured the first 'Big Four' of Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Salamanders complete with named paints (Ultramarines Blue, Salamander Green, Blood Angel Orange..) Salamanders were swapped for the Dark Angels with the full Space Marine EPIC army list in WD126 (1990) which described the Ultramarines as being the First Founding Chapter with the most Techmarines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Does anyone else enjoy the irony of just how mainstream it is to hate the supposed mainstream? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 "You are unique, just like everyone else." :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 This thread was not meant to start a debate about GW's policy concerning featured Chapters. It was meant more as a reference for future discussions on such matters. Specifically to adress arguments like the one mentioned earlier in this thread, that at some point the Crimson Fists or the Black Templars or the Blood Angels had been the poster boys for Warhammer 40K, and the Ultramarines started to be pushed only recently, when it is evident that the Ultramarines had been selected as a trademark Chapter very early on. Most notable are certainly the first Index Astarets article from 1988 and their tag line description from the Board Game "Ultra Marines" in 1991 which described them as "the most famous of all the Space Marine Chapters". Now, what I did omit were some of the other board games GW had released during 1st and 2nd Edition. The first "Space Hulk" was mainly about the Dark Angels, while the second was about the Blood Angels (though I believe both rulebooks included paint schemes for other Chapters), and for "Epic 40,000" GW used the Imperial Fists for most models and armies in the rulebook pictures. But that does not detract from the point that the Ultramarines were heavily featured since the 1st Edition of 40K. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balroth Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Perhaps it'd also be worth mentioning that Ultramarines have been on the main box photo for most generic Space Marine units since at least second edition (with only a couple of exceptions). -B Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793346 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Legatus - While I could be wrong, I have a vague recollection that the first Space hulk was about the Blood Angels. The expansion for that first edition SH was called Deathwing (iirc), and was the bit that focused on the Dark Angels, while the third expansion (Genestealer?) was the one with the funny plastic Librarian termies - of which I appear to have several without ever knowingly possessed the expansion (GK's?). Then dont forget that the first ed box had Crimson Fists as the cover art, as did the Rogue Trader book, then the second ed box was covered with BA, as was Codex Imperialis and the Wargear book (with CF's again on the cover of the rulebook). Space Crusade had a BA captain on the cover, Advanced Space Crusade had assorted Scouts from BA, Ultras, DA, etc on it... Ultramarines didnt get theri won cover art till the 2nd ed Codex:Ultramarines. Argueably till then they didnt have that big a push behind them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 This thread was not meant to start a debate about GW's policy concerning featured Chapters. It was meant more as a reference for future discussions on such matters. Specifically to adress arguments like the one mentioned earlier in this thread, that at some point the Crimson Fists or the Black Templars or the Blood Angels had been the poster boys for Warhammer 40K, and the Ultramarines started to be pushed only recently, when it is evident that the Ultramarines had been selected as a trademark Chapter very early on. Most notable are certainly the first Index Astarets article from 1988 and their tag line description from the Board Game "Ultra Marines" in 1991 which described them as "the most famous of all the Space Marine Chapters". Now, what I did omit were some of the other board games GW had released during 1st and 2nd Edition. The first "Space Hulk" was mainly about the Dark Angels, while the second was about the Blood Angels (though I believe both rulebooks included paint schemes for other Chapters), and for "Epic 40,000" GW used the Imperial Fists for most models and armies in the rulebook pictures. But that does not detract from the point that the Ultramarines were heavily featured since the 1st Edition of 40K. And that only really reinforces that the BA and DA were part of the Big Four, and maybe that GW didn't used to ignore the Imperial Fists so much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 A ) A lot of people got into the game in 3rd edition, when the Ultramarines emphasis was a lot less pronounced (if only because there was no emphasis on any chapter in 3e C:SM). Thus, to them, the emphasis is new. B ) People object to the tone as much as the content. It's one thing to explain how the Ultramarines are great, it's another to take some extra time to explain how other chapters are inferior deviants. C ) The fact that it may have been done before does not make it a good idea, does not mean people have to enjoy it, and does not mean that they are wrong if they object to it. D ) Greatness is subjective, and the claim that the Ultramarines are the greatest is thus kinda silly at best. Paradill Those who have an issue with the 5th edition codex in regards to the frequent Ultramarine sections are jumping on the "mainstream is bad, lets all go and be alternative together" bandwagon. *Sigh* Yeah. My issues with the fifth edition codex are a sign of a deep-seated need to conform. That's why I object to the Ultramarines being pushed on me, why I play DIY chapters, and why I play SPACE MARINES. Because I want to conform. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 I'd be here all day trying to respond to half that stuff, so i'll just point out one or two things. The argument that the most appearances in media and other books is still flawed because other chapters still contest that. The Blood Angels for starters were stars of the Space Hulk games, have their own series, had their own long running and successful comic; and were planned to have a film made focusing upon them. The problem i've seen most people complain about, including myself, is not that the Ultramarines are the most focused upon following the Codex or that they're the flagship chapter for Games Workshop. I still say that the Crimson Fists served that role for a time but each to their own. The problem people have is how Ward has presented since taking over. Prior to him they were fallible, they were mortal and they could lose battles. They were space marines, exceptionally good ones, but they did not stand head and shoulders above all other chapters in existence and were not, though I hate to use this term, Mary Sues. Consider for a minute the battles listed in the fifth edition codex and the events which took place in them. Ignoring for a moment that just as much time is spent covering the exploits of one chapter over all others the codex is supposed to represent, consider for a second the battles it presents. The Botherhood at War section, supposedly devoted to all the non-Ultramarines chapters, show the following battles: - The battle against the World Machine, an entire chapter is killed fighting Necrons - Rynn's World, an entire chapter is almost destroyed fighting Orks - The hunt for Voldorius, elements of two chapters are forced to join together to beat one foe - The Zeist Campaign, the Ultramarines superior leadership and tactics allows for several chapters to defeat the Tau. Now look at the section devoted to the Ultramarines’ battles: - The Battle for Macragge, the entire Ultramarines defeat an amassed Hive Fleet in a huge engagement which costs them one company and deminishes two others. Story elements which showed Calgar realising the codex would have to be expanded upon and that they had become arrogant as well as complacent were removed from the book and new retcons made. - The Battle for the Sepulchre, Calgar defeats and single handedly kills an Avatar and the Ultramarines use their superior tactics to slaughter an elite Eldar army with moderate difficulty. - The Assault on Black Reach, the Ultramarines second company successfully holds off and defeats a massive Ork Waaagh! little difficulty. - The Damnos Incident, the Ultramarines only recorded "defeat" in the codex. They are forced to withdraw from a world attacked by the Necrons, successfully evacuating the population and destroying the world behind them along with the Necrons. The two put together show the Ultramarines to be an apparently superior force in every aspect. It apparently presents all other Space Marine chapters to be inferior, having to team up to defeat any foe they come across or taking massive casualties to gain any victory. The only great victory which did not incur massive casualties was due to several chapters uniting and being lead by the Ultramarines. At the same time the Ultramarines are capable of defeating the biggest threats to the Imperium with far smaller casualties and almost entirely unassisted, their “defeats” resulting in the deaths of all enemies and denying them their prize. The Ultramarines were good, that’s something i’ll never deny, but they were never so good and so superior that all other chapters should just retire and let them deal with humanity's enemies. Previously they could make mistakes and actually lose battles entirely rather than always gain victory somehow. The entire codex is like this. Page 24 presents every chapter besides the Ultramarines as being inferior to them in some way. Ward writes that all chapters of other geneseeds follow Guilliman but are inferior and are held back because their gene-seed is from another primarch hardly helps improve things. Condescendingly noting “these chapters can never be Ultramarines” and retconing at least two chapters to be entirely codex adherent. Even those whose geneseed comes from Guilliman are noted to be subservient to the Ultramarines, willing to come running to the Ultramarines’ Chapter Master and obey any command he might give out. Running to his aid and following his orders. The only thing Ward refrained from doing is calling them “second rate Ultramarines.” He goes out of his way to repeatedly bash any chapters who don’t follow the Codex. Calling the Space Wolves and Black Templars aberrant who are slowly dying out and suggesting they are wrong for following the teachings of their own primarchs rather than Guilliman. That they are backwards fools who are derided and unthinking savages seen as being wrong by all others. Despite having a great many more pages than the last codex, barely any time is spent focusing upon any chapter besides the Ultramarines and constantly tangents into hailing them in some way. Stories of their glories and greatness are shoehorned in at ever turn, to the point where the tale of captain Idaeus is jammed in between the special characters and wargear. There was no need for it to be in the codex at all. The character descriptions just make things worse with Sicarius being noted to command the Ultramarines second company and it being "the finest fighting unit in this [ultramarines] or any other Space Marine Chapter". Also Telion's bio lists that some Ultramarines scouts achieve a level of experience on par with most other space marine captains and the chapter "boast the most skilled marksmen of any Space Marine chapter." They're presented as being the greatest warriors in the universe, who no one can equal and no chapter can ever hope to come close to their glory. Previous codexes always showed them to be good, but never to the point where the Custodes might as well retire and let the Ultramarines defend the Emperor instead. And it was never at the expense of lessening all other chapters. In conclusion, the fifth edition space marines codex isn't devoted to the space marines. It's a 144 page love letter by Matt Ward to the Ultramarines and repeatedly screws over ever other person who might be playing another chapter in 40K. It's a regression back to the second edition Ultramarines Codex rather than the expansion there had previously been to better represent the adeptus astartes as a whole. One final note I should make to Legatus. Before you try to use the excuse "no one who has been playing since second edition has a problem with their superiority" again, most of the people i've seen complaining have joined from previous editions. I've been playing since the Tau came out and had been reading the army books long before that, hell the Ultras were once the chapter I used, and I have a problem with their new found innate superiority over all other space marines. So please don't assume that anyone who complains about the Ultramarines is some inexperienced newcommer to the game who has barely understands the 40K universe. I wash my hands of this thread. Make what replies and excuses you want, i'm not going to read them. EDIT: Correcting error. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 "You are unique, just like everyone else." ^_^ this made me chuckle, it reminds me of the time i asked a 'goth' chick why she dressed the way she did.. she replied "i want to be unique" so i asked her why all her freinds dressed the same way.... she wasnt impressed the same goes here tho, idaho is right, its become cool to knock the ultramarines, at the smaller games clubs i go to recently ive seen alot of ward hate.. almost copying what people have said online. it really takes me back to those first few months of playing ultramarines, all those silly comments. people will never learn... BAAAAAAAAA... (<-- sheep noises) @legatus, i like what youve done here.. the last poster not withstanding most people dont actuall have a serious issue with ultras.. its merely the badwagon issue. as for the last poster.. eeek, what can i say that wont sound insulting. No ill learn from my mistakes ill let others reply ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 Leonaides: Legatus - While I could be wrong, I have a vague recollection that the first Space hulk was about the Blood Angels. The expansion for that first edition SH was called Deathwing (iirc), and was the bit that focused on the Dark Angels Ah yes, you are right. I personally only had the 2nd Edition of Space Hulk. I probably should have double checked. Then dont forget that the first ed box had Crimson Fists as the cover art, as did the Rogue Trader book, then the second ed box was covered with BA, as was Codex Imperialis and the Wargear book (with CF's again on the cover of the rulebook). Space Crusade had a BA captain on the cover, Advanced Space Crusade had assorted Scouts from BA, Ultras, DA, etc on it... Ultramarines didnt get theri won cover art till the 2nd ed Codex:Ultramarines. Argueably till then they didnt have that big a push behind them. I did briefly mention the Crimson Fists being on the cover of the Rogue Trader book and the RTB01 plastic marine box, but admittedly not in my main post and merely to dismiss claims to the effect that the Crimson Fists were ever a big featured Chapter. Frankly, I don't think being on the cover of the main rulebook or on box covers is as important as receiving a White Dwarf background article or a dedicated board game. Now, I have entered the scene in 2nd Edition, so I am not aware of all the White Dwarf articles from the Rogue Trader era. But I do know that the Ultramarines were the first Chapter to receive an Index Astartes article in 1988. Rogue Trader started in 1987 with the Crimson Fists on the book and on the first plastic box, but it does appear that as soon as 1988 GW had decided on different Chapters to focus on. The first appearance of the "Big Four" I am personally aware of was in "Armies of the Imperium" in 1991, but as Vodonius has mentioned, the Big Four were apparently alrady presented in WHite Dwarf articles in 1989 and 1990. I assume that there was a Crimson Fists Index Astartes article during Rogue Trader times, but I do not know that one. And as mentioned, the forst Article was about the Ultramarines. --- Octavulg: A ) A lot of people got into the game in 3rd edition, when the Ultramarines emphasis was a lot less pronounced (if only because there was no emphasis on any chapter in 3e C:SM). Thus, to them, the emphasis is new. That is most certainly true, but it is people like them, who are not aware of the entire history of the Chapters (GW history, not in-universe history) that this thread is for too. Heck, I was not aware of most of those 1st Edition sources until recently. B ) People object to the tone as much as the content. It's one thing to explain how the Ultramarines are great, it's another to take some extra time to explain how other chapters are inferior deviants. This I can also understand. But I feel the impact would have been much less if the notion that the Ultramarines are the "most famous Chapter" (or even "the greatest") would have been better established among the community. Someone who is of the opinion that the Ultramarines have only recently been selected for special treatment would probably object more to additional praise for them than someone who has seen several Edition of this and sees it as common practice. C ) The fact that it may have been done before does not make it a good idea, does not mean people have to enjoy it, and does not mean that they are wrong if they object to it. Similar caveat as before. I think had they been fully aware of the Ultramarines' (or the Big Four's, really) status upon entrering the game, they would probably object less and see it as routine. Yeah. My issues with the fifth edition codex are a sign of a deep-seated need to conform. That's why I object to the Ultramarines being pushed on me, why I play DIY chapters, and why I play SPACE MARINES. Because I want to conform. Oooh, come on. ^_^ You can certainly see the scenario where a new gamer enters the scene during 4th or 5th Edition and keeps hearing "bah, again with the Ultramarines" in his local store. It is likely that he will adopt a similar attitude towards them, even if he hasn't really examined them for himself. Edit: Took too long to post. New posts in between. No time now. More later. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 *Sigh* Yeah. My issues with the fifth edition codex are a sign of a deep-seated need to conform. That's why I object to the Ultramarines being pushed on me, why I play DIY chapters, and why I play SPACE MARINES. Because I want to conform. ^_^ Surely the issue is simply the clumsy writing GW is promoting, which seems to encourage kids to get into the game? Comparing some of the Codex Space Marines background with it's power armoured contempary Codex books, we can clearly see it is all aimed to hyper bole in a way only kids are fooled by. Though maybe GW are trying to force armies on people, though I would imagine there are easier and more efficient ways of doing that! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradill Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 ParadillThose who have an issue with the 5th edition codex in regards to the frequent Ultramarine sections are jumping on the "mainstream is bad, lets all go and be alternative together" bandwagon. *Sigh* Yeah. My issues with the fifth edition codex are a sign of a deep-seated need to conform. That's why I object to the Ultramarines being pushed on me, why I play DIY chapters, and why I play SPACE MARINES. Because I want to conform. ^_^ Sort of the opposite of my point.. I'm not saying that people are conforming to anything, I'm saying the vast majority of people don't like to think of themselves as doing so and therefor immediately rebel against that which is considered "the norm". If you re-read the section you quote, you note the use of the term "frequent Ultramarine sections". Any issues you have with the tone of the text and language the author uses are separate to that issue, and therefor you would be exempt from my comment. Although I disagree that Ultramarines being the poster child is "pushing them in your face". They use the Ultramarines because they are the greatest example of a codex chapter and therefor the best one to introduce new people to the 40k universe (the majority of chapters being codex orientated). Just because there are no deformed Mars Bars in the adverts doesn't mean that you will never get one, it just means they want to show you the best that their product can be. Paradill *Disclaimer* If yours is one of the chapters I just likened to a deformed chocolate bar, I apologise and wish to state that I am not implying inferiority, I am sure your chapter tastes just as good as the Ultras... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 as for the last poster.. eeek, what can i say that wont sound insulting. Yeaaa.... At best, I'll just say that the logic in that whole post is riddled with so many holes that a sponge looks quite solid in comparison. It made me laugh tho. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ioz Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 "The Ultramarines are the first of the Chapters to receive a detailed background description in an Index Astartes article. Though back then their background was very different from the one later established in 2nd Edition." What was the difference in the fluff back then? I started in 2nd ed and have only known the glory of the UM as the emperor's ideal legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793488 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 It's...weird. It's mostly focused on their deployment. Put it this way, though. They have a half-Eldar Librarian. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793505 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 It's...weird. It's mostly focused on their deployment. Put it this way, though. They have a half-Eldar Librarian. And Space Marines were more like Dune's Sardaurkar and Starcraft's current marines, being beefy rehabbed sociopaths and such. The Primarchs were just generals, and you could have all kinds of wonky stuff that would be labeled "HERESY" by today's fluff. Half-Eldar Librarian amongst them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 It's...weird. It's mostly focused on their deployment. Put it this way, though. They have a half-Eldar Librarian. thats not entirely accurate, whilst i dont doubt half-breeds are possible, i dont think the marine making process would work with alien DNA. Illiyan Nastase was a half-Eldar Ultramarine astropath mentioned in WD97.. as an astropath he wasnt a marine but a human (kinda) working 'for' the chapter Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 I like the "Here's why you're wrong, but don't reply to me because I know I'm perfect and nothing you can say can prove me wrong.." post.. Or am I reading too much into "I was my hands of this thread.."? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231922-the-ultramarines-throughout-the-editions/#findComment-2793515 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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