The Ultramarines throughout the Editions

[Legatus]

Either way, in this particular thread I listed a history of GW's treatment of the Ultramarines. Not only were they one of the four focus Chapters since 1st Edition, they even had a special position among them as the "straight" Chapter that was used for several spin off games and as the default example of what Space Marines are. Such a long tradition lends a certain legitimacy to any further attention they receive from GW.

 

That history can answer question such as

 

- Why do the Ultramarines get so much space in the Codex Space Marines?

 

- Why are the Ultramarines on so many box covers?

 

- Why do mostly the Ultramarines get chosen for games or movies based on 40K?

 

While regard to their history within the hobby does not mean that one has to like them, it hopefully at least rationalises the amount of attention they get.

 

 

What that history cannot answer are questions like:

 

- Why should the Ultramarines be better than another Chapter?

 

- Why was the 5th Edition Codex particularly controversial?

 

 

While there are points and arguments that can be raised about those issues, the historical background does not really adress them.

[Octavulg]

It kinda does and it kinda doesn't.

 

The answer is "because GW likes them". And the "why" behind that is a lot more arcane.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

It'as different than the Ultramarines. In Marvel Wolverine is one of their most popular characters next to Deadpool and Spiderman. In 40k the Ultramarines may be the poster boys, but their fanbase is second to chapters like the Wolves and the BA.

 

Okay, I misfired on the comics, but that is okay, they are not my cup of tea. :)

But they have had crossover's between the two, yes?

Anyway, the comics were not really my point at all.

 

My main point is that Ultras writing is a pretty obvious no go in writing terms. "Yeah, you might be best at X, but we are just Greater than you, so who cares?"

"Why is this offensive to you?"

 

If Ultraplayers cannot see that it is stinky writing AND that it is grating and will result in people getting annoyed at the faction, they are very insulated from the people who find such things annoying.

"What? I can't hear you, my Ultramarine tower is too GREAT a distance away from you, because we are the GREATEST."

 

No wonder some cannot get why such condescension is offensive, when they don't even think claiming the Greatest title won't raise the frustration of fans of other factions.

 

Put yourself into others shoes. Imagine if Blood Angels had the Greatest moniker.

"Yes, I don't care that your Chapter is more adept at bringing a great amount of guns and supplies into a situation, Ultramarine. Blood Angels are greater than you overall. Why is this offensive to you?"

Do you see?

 

My only problem is that it is Ward that gets the fire for this. Ward did NOT do anything new, he only wrote what GW had established. It is like shooting a messager.

 

I ALWAYS remember the Ultra's being the best, and I always remember my dad (who collects everything), saying, "See, it says right there! They are the best!" In which case I pull out the BA codexes and Index Astartes, as well as the SW ones and say, "See right there! The Noblest! The Fiercest!" In which case we laugh and let it go, because they all say they are the best.

 

In fact, if you want to see someone say they are the best, go onto the Black Templar forum and read the thread, "So what possition day they hold." Every single one of the BT players said they are far superior to every single chapter in existance, and list a long and comprehensive explination of why. And they do it with a matter-of-fact-there-is-no-doubt attitude. Did I agree with it? Heck no! But did it make sense, and seem right? Oh yes, it did.

 

Point is, it says they are the best, and in a way, they are. But in a way, so are all of the other First Foundings. At least, all of the ones with a Codex.

 

Another reason I don't like the Ultra's is not because the fluff or "wardism" (and I hate the Ward-Bash SO much), its because they were good enough to come in and say, "Hey, guess what, you follow our rules now. Break up your legions!" And they did that forcefully, even though they weren't at the Palace. But you know what? The noble Blood Angels thought it was necessary too. That says something.

 

And TEC, the Blood Angels have always been said to be the Noblest. And even with your quote saying that GW says otherwise, I will always believe they are. We are also the most Humble...

 

You are missing a something, I feel, without me trying to be rude.

Your Dad says "Ultras are the greatest, and it says it right there". You counter "But Blood Angels are the fiercest, and it says it right there"

Then you go on to say "In which case we laugh and let it go, because they all say they are the best."

No. They don't.

BA says they are the greatest at X. UM says they are the GREATEST. Full stop.

Comparing "I am the greatest a X" with " I am the greatest" is comparing different things.

 

That is the problem.

 

UM don't say "I am the greatest administrator" which is fine to accept. Admin wins wars. We've all played C&C type games and won not just from the quality of of dudes but moreso from the quality of our economy - which can be likened to admin. That's totally fine for Ultras to be proud of and to hang their hat on.

 

You see the difference though?

 

+++

 

The whole "The Greatest thing" doesn't even work.

Templars, at some 6K, would cream the UM, even on Macragge. Basically, what is claimed is not true and is shown as not being true by even my quickly thought of scenario. It grates.

GK would also bash any 1Kish strong Chapter.

 

The issue is, Ultraplayers don't seem to get that and get surprised when others groan at it.

 

On the BT forum, it is our opinion that we are the greatest. That is very different from having a line of text from GW that says the same thing.

 

+++

 

Thinking your own faction is the greatest is more than fine and is probably the reason why we've committed to our dudes, right?

That is quite different from a heavy handed piece of writing that does get trotted out by Ultraplayers in discussions - "Guys, why are you even arguing against us - it says right here that we are the Greatest, way back since 2nd ed."

 

That UM players don't recognise that as bad writing, and their pulling it out in arguments as annoying/poor form, is why they don't get why people dislike Ultras.

 

Again, bashing a player because he plays Ultras is not acceptable, the annoyance is for GW, not the fans. But that Ultra players are surprised that people dislike that writing is what I am talking about. :wallbash:

 

Well, I've tried to make my point clear and reasonable. But the same guys I am speaking about and to will not understand and/or accept my point, and in a few weeks time, when this thread reincarnates, will genuinely ask "So.... what's with people not liking Ultramarines?! I mean, we are the greatest. It says it right here on the back of the 2nd ed. Codex"

*facepalm*

[Marshal Rohr]

Sports example: Germany wins world cup. Germany is logically the greatest team on earth. That will still not stop Ghana from feeling like they are the best. Ghana and Germany fan meets on the street. Germany says they are the best because of the cup as evidence. Ghana fan beats Germany fan with Germany fans arm because he doesn't care what anyone says, Ghana is the best :) .

[clanfield]

the problem comes from distingishing the game from the fluff i feel.

the utramarines adhire to the codex the closest they exmplify the codex.

its soul and its teachings it is without dout for me that other chapters consider them the shiney pinacle of this the very heart of marine operating tactics and stratergy ,now it also makes a lot of scense to me that other first founding legions have a opinon on this its more the residue of there beginings temperd with the events of the herasy ,such as dorn not understanding why the imperium lost trust in the astartes he looked beyond the needs of his heart and his legion to the greater good of the imperium many others were the same ,the blood angels needed stablity after the conflict the dark angels were all messed up by there "problem back home" the ravenguard were more into rebuilding as were the salmanders whilst the ironhands were just sulking ,so the imperium is held together by the ultramarines theyhave the numbers and the forthought to hold things firm whilst the others regroup and rebuild that is worthey of respect as is the fact that this kinda moulds the future for the ultras and the codex chapters

 

a friend of mine who plays ultramarines came out with a great quote the other day "from what iv seen i should have marched my scouts up here"the reply from a nid player was something like "you reckon " then came"clearly you dont know our scouts"...very 300 loved it

 

just my 2 pence it is a game and there for we can walk away and think what we wish but at the end id still use my boys more so if my group poicks on them which happenms a lot as a powerplaying space wolf you know how it go's,shame they just cannt learn to play :D

[Gree]

It'as different than the Ultramarines. In Marvel Wolverine is one of their most popular characters next to Deadpool and Spiderman. In 40k the Ultramarines may be the poster boys, but their fanbase is second to chapters like the Wolves and the BA.

 

Okay, I misfired on the comics, but that is okay, they are not my cup of tea. ;)

But they have had crossover's between the two, yes?

Anyway, the comics were not really my point at all.

 

My main point is that Ultras writing is a pretty obvious no go in writing terms. "Yeah, you might be best at X, but we are just Greater than you, so who cares?"

"Why is this offensive to you?"

 

If Ultraplayers cannot see that it is stinky writing AND that it is grating and will result in people getting annoyed at the faction, they are very insulated from the people who find such things annoying.

"What? I can't hear you, my Ultramarine tower is too GREAT a distance away from you, because we are the GREATEST."

 

No wonder some cannot get why such condescension is offensive, when they don't even think claiming the Greatest title won't raise the frustration of fans of other factions.

 

Put yourself into others shoes. Imagine if Blood Angels had the Greatest moniker.

"Yes, I don't care that your Chapter is more adept at bringing a great amount of guns and supplies into a situation, Ultramarine. Blood Angels are greater than you overall. Why is this offensive to you?"

Do you see?

 

Perhaps it's just me, but I don't really care if it's the Ultramarines or the Blood Angels who are the greatest. Even when I was playing my Eagle Claws as loyalist EC, I always saw the Ultramarines as the gold standard of Astartes. Perhaps not the greatest, but certainly what everyone models themself after as a Space Marine.

 

By my very nature I like obscure chapters like the Praetors of Orpheus, Doom Eagles, Fire Angels or Storm Wardens. Such chapters can't claim to be the greatest at all. I have no problem or care of who is the greatest. To me I'm more than happy to write fluff and carve out my own victories with one of those little-known chapters that arn't apart of the popular chapters.

[Octavulg]

...Why couldn't the Praetors of Orpheus claim to be the greatest chapter?

[Gree]

...Why couldn't the Praetors of Orpheus claim to be the greatest chapter?

 

They are just a Second Founding chapter with little fluff to speak of other than ''we like technology.''. It's hard to base anything off of that or claim that's why the Praetors are super special awesome beyond even the Ultramarines.

[Legatus]

If they are an Ultramarines successor, then chances are they think the Ultramarines are pretty cool. Also, I don't think many Chapters would think of themselves as the greatest. As pretty great, or as one of the best, sure, but not explicitely the greatest. So far I know of only one Chapter where that has been implied in the fluff. But that had been a throwaway line in a BL book.

[Octavulg]

See, maybe it's my experience with Battletech, but I'm pretty sure every chapter would think of themselves as the greatest. Certainly every First Founding one.

 

Compare with Battletech for a bit. Proud, genetically tinkered-with warrior societies. A designated successor to the inspirational figure who gave them all birth - and they're still headstrong and convinced that their ways are best, despite the fact that that designated successor invented half the stuff they use, routinely beats them up militarily, and has managed to hang onto the genetic legacy of the inspirational figure for several centuries.

 

And yet each Clan maintains its own military traditions, swears its founders were the most brilliant people ever, and insists that their ways are best.

 

Space Marines are more superstitious, probably almost as honor-focused, less mystically-inclined, and have longer histories.

 

So you can see why, just maybe, I find the idea that any Space Marine chapter thinks its not the most important a little questionable.

 

Considering the Praetors of Orpheus can claim the Ultramarines' history in the Great Crusade, I'd expect them to think they were pretty awesome. I'd also expect them to be convinced their views on the Codex were right - clearly the Ultramarines received Guilliman's personal attention because they were naturally inclined to do it wrong.

 

Pride is a powerful motivator.

[Gree]

Considering the Praetors of Orpheus can claim the Ultramarines' history in the Great Crusade, I'd expect them to think they were pretty awesome. I'd also expect them to be convinced their views on the Codex were right - clearly the Ultramarines received Guilliman's personal attention because they were naturally inclined to do it wrong.

 

Pride is a powerful motivator.

 

All guesswork I'm afriad. We don't know much otherwise about the chapter.

 

As for Battletech. I don't know anything about the universe and I hesitate to pull another example from another universe when discussing a different warrior group in a different universe.

 

I honestly can't consider any sucessor chapter considering themselves better than the original, since the original would have things like a Primarch's body, relics or will.

 

Except for the Templars, they seem arrogant enough to consider themselves better than the Fists in my view.

[Marshal Rohr]

If they are an Ultramarines successor, then chances are they think the Ultramarines are pretty cool. Also, I don't think many Chapters would think of themselves as the greatest. As pretty great, or as one of the best, sure, but not explicitely the greatest. So far I know of only one Chapter where that has been implied in the fluff. But that had been a throwaway line in a BL book.

 

Sometimes you make me so angry

[Legatus]

Hey, I wasn't naming any names.

[Marshal Rohr]

;)

 

 

Youre so sneaky.

[Legatus]

Well, I do like the occasional jibe. But then I also did not want to make it a direct accusation, as that might have started a debate about the justification for that Chapter to claim that they may be superior to others. We should not have such a debate in this thread.

[Marshal Rohr]

I agree. They should just make a sub-forum in Amicus where everyone can debate about which chapter is best.

[Walter Payton]

These debates tend to be kind of circular, but I'll throw in my tuppence all the same.

 

I can totally see why someone would not like the Ultramarines as a chapter. GW's hammering of the "greatest" line and the attention given to the Ultramarines over other chapters (I mean, did we really need the Avatar beatdown battle account over two pages when that space could have been used for an Iron Hands story/special character?). Matt Ward's spectacular lack of tact in the way he defined Codex adherence (i.e: essentially as a desire to conform to an Ultramarine norm, rather than a Guilliman one) and the way in which he took the pro-Ultramarines hyperbole common to GW and broadened it to tread on other chapter's toes. Marshal Wilhelm makes a valid point in saying that the failure of the Ultramarines to live up to that image on the tabletop is another reason why people dislike them.

 

That said, a balanced response from many people (this is not directed at anyone on this thread, let me make clear) would be nice. People who play the Ultramarines are not blind to why people dislike the chapter, nor do all of us play the chapter merely for their fame. I play them because of my love of Latin and my great interest in the history of the Roman Empire. Others have similar or widely different reasons that do not necessarily stem from the greatest ever.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Hey, I wasn't naming any names.

 

Templars feel they are the greatest, from a line in a novel.

 

Ultramarines "are the greatest" according to the fluff. So they would think they are the greatest, or are the dull about their greatness? I wouldn't think so, that would mean they cannot perceive the world around them correctly, which doesn't seem very Ultra to me.

 

So before you tell me about the mote in my eye, deal with the plank in yours :)

[The Emperor's Champion]

The Ultramarines themselves are just concerned with being Ultramarines and doing the best that they can. They're not really worried about if they're actually the best or not.

Many people in the fluff believe they are, the fluff itself says they are, they do pretty damn good at everything, and they've got a fairly good understanding that what they do is highly effective.

[Legatus]

In a setting where Chapters like the Space Wolves or the Ultramarines are sometimes cut off from the rest of the Imperium for several years, and where no one outside a Chapter like the Dark Angels, the Blood Angels or the Black Templars knows what exactly is going on with them, it would be impossible for anyone to make an educated assessment of the comparable records of all the Chapters. For the Ultramarines there are probably more official accounts than for most other Chapters, and from those accounts they can probably derive a great deal of pride. But with several of the Chapters they might not even have had any contact, or only have seen their names listed in some short report of some campaign. They could not objectively assume that none of the Chapters they don't know anything about is not greater than they are. (Quadrupple negative, ouch.) Though that might be a likely assumption.

 

They might think that they are the greatest, simply based on their records, their fame, and the lack of records of some of the other Chapters. But on the other hand the Ultramarines usually seem very empirical in their endeavors. It would not really seem like them to make a judgement without having all the data.

[Octavulg]

First, the thing about the UM being the greatest is sort-of out of universe - I don't think it's supposed to actually be the reasoned conclusion of the Imperial government.

 

Second, what matters to being great is infinitely variable, and even if you could quantify achievements (debatable at best - what battles you win matters as much as how many you win, and when you win them, how you win them, who wins them, and what it costs all could matter as well. And then there's non-battlefield aspects).

[The Emperor's Champion]

First, the thing about the UM being the greatest is sort-of out of universe - I don't think it's supposed to actually be the reasoned conclusion of the Imperial government.

It's not a universal thing, I'm sure, but yea, in universe there's a lot of people who think that way.

Many of the worlds brought into the Imperium by the Ultramarines during the Great Crusade, for instance, still think of them as the greatest thing since sliced bread. And since the Ultramarines claimed more worlds than anyone during the Great Crusade, there's an awful lot of them.

 

But then there's all the worlds who can't remember that far back, worlds who think Space Marines don't exist, worlds who've had more to do with other Chapters since then, worlds who've only met Uriel Ventris....etc etc - they'd all probably assume another Chapter was the greatest.

 

What the "Imperial Government" thinks...well, they certainly trust the Ultramarines more than anyone else. Of all Chapters in the galaxy there seems to be only 3 that the Grey Knights trust enough not to mind-wipe - the Exorcists, the Silver Skulls, and the Ultramarines. It's more common for Ultramarines to be put in command of multi-Chapter forces than Marines from any other Chapter, so even the other Marines seem to favor them.

If the amount of faith that other agencies place in a Chapter is any indication, then it may in fact be that the Ultramarines are considered the greatest by most of the major Imperial agencies.

[Legatus]

Many of the worlds brought into the Imperium by the Ultramarines during the Great Crusade, for instance, still think of them as the greatest thing since sliced bread. And since the Ultramarines claimed more worlds than anyone during the Great Crusade, there's an awful lot of them.

Even with the most worlds conquered during the Great Crusade, that would still only be a small fraction of the Imperial Worlds. Their actions during the Scouring will probably have contrubited significantly more for their galaxy wide fame than their successes of the Great Crusade. Onle around 1% of the worlds will remember being integrated into the Imperium by the Ultramarines. But on many worlds of the Imperium there will be legends of the Ultramarines coming to their defense in the dark days after the great civil war.

[Seahawk]

What the "Imperial Government" thinks...well, they certainly trust the Ultramarines more than anyone else.

Even though every world in Ultramar has Inquisitorial spy satellites in orbit around them ;).

[Legatus]

Wh... whut? ;)

 

Well, first I wanted to be surprised by that notion. But then, if there are such things as "inquisitorial spy sattelites", then which worlds of a certain significance doesn't have such satelites?