The Ultramarines throughout the Editions

[Octavulg]

gc08

He was also, as I recall, their Chief Librarian.

 

CJJ

EDIT: And considering the responses to that post have been "well, we know you're wrong but we don't have to prove it", I think he had the right idea. ;)

[Vodunius]

"The Ultramarines are the first of the Chapters to receive a detailed background description in an Index Astartes article. Though back then their background was very different from the one later established in 2nd Edition."

 

What was the difference in the fluff back then? I started in 2nd ed and have only known the glory of the UM as the emperor's ideal legion.

 

They were a 3rd Founding Chapter created using the number, geneseed and traditions of one of the treacher-legions that were banished into the Eye of Terror following the First Inter-Legionary War. They were fleet based until the battle of Macragge, the battle itself was surprisingly similar: the Smurf 1st Company were wiped out defending the polar fortress whilst the rest of the chapter (albeit along with the Dark Angels and White Scars) was busy in space - with the planet-side mopping up being done by the 3rd & 7th companies. The Smurfs were granted the world of Macragge as reward for their pivotal role in the battle. I have to say I actually prefer some parts of that, namely the fact the Imperium spent 60 years coralling the Hive Fleet into a Fortress system where it could be smashed - I find that far FAR FAR more satisfying than the "oh that was damned lucky, the alien of the week warp jumped into the system we were mustering our main fleet in.." tripe they retconned it to with 2nd edition.

 

There was a great host of characters with punnish names like Chief Navigator Christo Columbine. Marneus Calgar was the only one to survive from those days.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

CJJ

EDIT: And considering the responses to that post have been "well, we know you're wrong but we don't have to prove it", I think he had the right idea. ;)

 

Well, in theory they don't if he won't read it..? Correctness by default?

[greatcrusade08]

gc08

He was also, as I recall, their Chief Librarian.

 

dangnammit your right.. one google search later and i is confused.. how can you be both chief librarain and astropath.. one is a marine and one is a human..

times sure were different back then

[Captain Juan Juarez]

how can you be both chief librarain and astropath.. one is a marine and one is a human..

 

There are - BL - fluff instances of Librarians performing the task of both Astropaths and Navigators though.

[Vodunius]

To my knowledge that was however the first ever mention of Librarians, so it wasn't like it was trampling on any existing fluff, tho I don't believe it was repeated. Tho under later RT fluff (at least the Genestealer expansion for Space Hulk) the whole reason Librarians were psykers was because of their ability to transmit messages telepathically (tho presumably not to the distance of actual Astropaths).

 

In addition the chapter's Reclusiarch was human of the Imperial Cult rather than a marine.

[The Emperor's Champion]

He wasn't an Astropath or the Chief Librarian AFAICT. He was the Chief Librarian Astropath....whatever a Librarian Astropath is...

Presumably he was the master of the Astropath abilities among the Librarians?

[Vodunius]

"..led to soul-binding in 925. From that point Nastase was recruited into the Administratum as an Astropath. He attained the ranks of Secundus, Prefect and eventually rose to hold Consulship for four years, helping to run the Adeptus Terra's advisory Senate to the Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. Following this he undertook four years service with the fleet, a further two years with the Dark Angels Marines and was appointed chief of the Macragge interstellar communications link under the jurisdiction of the Ultra-Marines (965)."

[Captain Idaho]

"The Ultramarines are the first of the Chapters to receive a detailed background description in an Index Astartes article. Though back then their background was very different from the one later established in 2nd Edition."

 

What was the difference in the fluff back then? I started in 2nd ed and have only known the glory of the UM as the emperor's ideal legion.

 

They were a 3rd Founding Chapter created using the number, geneseed and traditions of one of the treacher-legions that were banished into the Eye of Terror following the First Inter-Legionary War. They were fleet based until the battle of Macragge, the battle itself was surprisingly similar: the Smurf 1st Company were wiped out defending the polar fortress whilst the rest of the chapter (albeit along with the Dark Angels and White Scars) was busy in space - with the planet-side mopping up being done by the 3rd & 7th companies. The Smurfs were granted the world of Macragge as reward for their pivotal role in the battle. I have to say I actually prefer some parts of that, namely the fact the Imperium spent 60 years coralling the Hive Fleet into a Fortress system where it could be smashed - I find that far FAR FAR more satisfying than the "oh that was damned lucky, the alien of the week warp jumped into the system we were mustering our main fleet in.." tripe they retconned it to with 2nd edition.

 

There was a great host of characters with punnish names like Chief Navigator Christo Columbine. Marneus Calgar was the only one to survive from those days.

 

 

I like the idea of the Hive Fleet being herded into the toughest system able to defend against them. If it was introduced into today's 5th edition fluff it would make the Ultramarines much more heroic, mixed with callousness in that they are prepared to sacrifice the people of Maccragge who never probably agreed to such a thing.

 

Hopefully the reason the Hive Fleet approached Maccragge is because of some Alpha Legion plot with a Genestealer Magus or something, revealed in a Battle for Maccragge Battles book.

[greatcrusade08]

revealed in a Battle for Maccragge Battles book.

 

did i ever mention that graham mcneill intends to write the BFM story for the battle novels series? (i threw loadsa Qs at him at ultra-meet)

[Marshal Rohr]

Quick, Oct-y! Run! I'll hold them off!!

 

 

*points to the middle distance* Look over there! A Blood Angel is revising the Codex!!

[Legatus]

Now, I can understand some of Codicier Lucion's complains. How the stories in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines make the Ultramarines look too good, how the Special Characters are described as "too awesome", or how the Ultramarines are praised to the detriment of other Chapters. (Though he should read some stories from the C:BA, the C:SW or the C:GK...) I have something to say to these complains, but frankly, those points are not adressed by this thread. And it cannot, because the testament to the Ultramarines being a heavily featured Chapter since Rogue Trader cannot make any comment on the quality of fluff in a current Codex. The topic at hand deals specifically with complains that the Ultramarines would not deserve more space (or as much more space that they get) than some of the other Chapters, and that GW started to heavily push the Ultramarines only recently, while having favoured other Chapetrs in the past instead of them.

 

My stance on the stories and the characters in the current Codex Space Marines: I don't care for it. I like that Ward included most of the 2nd Edition fluff in this Codex (the pages 6 - 16), but I could have done entirely without the 18 pages of "random engagement 8271" type stories of the pages 32 to 49. Though I think the Iron Hands story is not bad, and highlights their uncompromising nature. So the Ultramarines kick a lot of butt without any trouble... meh? (Again, read some stories from the Codex Blood Angels, Space Wolves or Grey Knights. I believe one of the Grey Knight heroes headbutts Khorne and then beats Tzeentch at Regicide.)

The three new Special Characters I mainly don't like because they are new (and of course everyone sugesting that Cronus should have been an Iron Hands Character and Telion a Raven Guard character is right.). And I am not happy with how the current Codex handles Special Characters in general. Especially the "Chapter Tactics" rule annoys the hell out of me.

It is no secret that I don't like the current Codex very much. I was hoping for a Codex just like the Codex Dark Angels, with it's reduced and focused army list, reminiscent of the army list of the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines. But I mainly dislike the army list, while for all the new fluff I merely don't care for.

Imagine then, as I am disappointed in the army list, that does not even attempt to emulate an Ultramarines force (despite what it claims), how everyone else is complaining about how the Ultramarines suck, and it is all their fault that the other Chapters got no more detailed fluff.

[Arkangilos]

This is why I hate Ward-hate. Because he did not do anything new, he only reaffirmed fluff that I remember. He didn't make Ultra's the best, they have always "been the best" just like the other big four.

 

I remember the BA fluff always saying they are the most noble of all chapters, just like in the fluff I remember that the SW have always been the most ferocious, etc. etc.

 

Of course the Ultra's are the "best" they invented the codex. Just like the BA are the Noblest. Its just one of their quirks.

 

 

I am making one of the lines: "The Ultramarines are the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters. From the dawn of the Imperium they have served the Emperor with loyalty and ferocity that no others can match. Their Primarch, Roboute Guilliman, wrote the Codex Astartes, and the Chapter has exemplified its teachings ever since. The Ultramarines were instrumental in the defeat of Hive Fleet Behemoth, saving the Imperium from almost certain destruction by the Tyranids. They are the warriors of Macragge in the realm of Ultramar, and in faith and valour they are unmatched."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, back cover)

 

my signature, because it only re-emphasizes my belief, that Ward did not change things, and that the Ultra's (while not my favorite chapter) are what it says that are. Now, I'm not saying I like them, I see them like Jocks. But that doesn't come from anything written about them, that comes from Competition between my dad and I. :)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I think part of the problem is Wardisms.

He certainly has kept up the 'for 12 year olds' writing style on C:BA and C:GK, so not much different from C:SM.

 

However, it is always the first howler that gets immortalised. Have any of your mates, or you, done something a bit off, and the nickname sticks regardless of what is done after that?

It is like that with the Wardism for C:SM. Perhaps no worse than the bro-fisting between Dante and some Necron Lord, or the pure GK killing innocents then having Crowe carrying around and using a daemon weapon.

But the first howler sticks. The first one was unique. The subsequent ones are 'just' echoes of the first.

 

Ultramarines have always been in the Big Four [besides the RT retcon]. The have always gotten "the greatest" tag. So no points against Ward there.

 

But in C:SM 5th ed. the pro-Ultra increased over the already generous 4th ed. emphasis.

 

Another thing is, yes, Ultras have been pumped up over the years. But no one really took that seriously. Besides you guys.

Ultramarines have long been the Marine of choice [or force?] of greenhorn's due to GW's marketing strategy. GW did that for a reason, but still the association comes > Ultras = n00bs

That means game play isn't going to be flattering for the either.

Wolves and Bloods were always Marines+. It doesn't matter what those players think and how they try to deny it, you and I know that they have always had extra goodies and for no real reason.

 

You compare that to Ultras, who get hyped up. No-one likes a big-talker who cannot perform. C:SM has never been "The L33Test of them all" and I am sure you'll all agree.

 

I would say GW saying Ultras are the greatest already got up the nose of other faction players.

Who cares if Bloods are the noblest? Do I aspire to be the noblest? No. So no feathers ruffled.

Who cares if Wolves are the fiercest? Do I aspire to be the fiercest? No. So no feathers ruffled.

Who cares if Ultras are the greatest? Everyone. Everyone wants to be a viable contender for being the greatest. It certainly annoys people when Ultras are shoe horned into that niche.

 

But dudes always ignored it, and bashed your Ultramarines on the table. "Yeah mate, you're the greatest, I'll just keep with my winning streak"

 

So when Ward came and turned the Ultra-love up to 11, it seems like it was too much. Firstly for old-timers, but also for greenhorns who see a very hamfisted effort at singing prose of a faction, even though they didn't know of GW always saying how great Ultras were.

 

None of these things are your fault. Nor are they what GW planned.

No one but Ultramarines get the claim to be the greatest, iIrc. If you can't see why people are not okay with that, step back and think of being a fan of another faction, then being told you are inferior. Not inferior at X. Just plain old inferior in a net-gain sense.

It doesn't matter that GW has done it since the 80s. The awkwardness of it has been ignored, basically. As fans, there is not much we can do about it, besides ignore it

 

Being bullied at school for a long time doesn't make it okay. I am not saying anything about this being bullying. I am saying that "long amounts of time" doesn't make something "legitimate"

That GW writes it makes it legitimate. But it still rankles.

If you were not Ultrafans, you would see that very clearly.

 

I think Ultras are fine as a faction. I don't like the greatest tag, at all. I don't like Wardisms, and they are off in all three of his Dexes. But C:SM was the first, and so it gets remembered for being that howler. As the Dex is supposed to be C:SM and not C:UM, GW has failed to deliver that. Have they done anything worse than they have always done with C:SM? Perhaps not, but with the recruitment drive of greenhorns into the game, and the patience getting thin of veteran gamers, perhaps this was just one straw too many.

 

I believe Bloods and Dark Angels also get similar l33t treatment in their Dexes. But it is their Dex. Not the one that is supposed to represent the bulk of the Astartes and also non-Ultramarines [via the actual Chapter or through successors]

 

Really it is GW. But you at the coal face get to wear the wrath of your fellow gamers. Which is not fair. I guess like how the RL boys in blue get the rubbish treatment from the public too.

[eyeslikethunder]

I understand your pain UM's there are some threads in horus heresy section complaining about all the love the SW's are getting. With the quotes saying the wolves are the badest and best. While most of these are from books about the Wolves and therefore baised. There have been few that are not like Sigismund of the Imperial fists and Black templars.

 

They feel this reduces there legions especially where it looks like another legion is better than there own in their key area.

 

Even i feel that some the big 4 four have stepped into areas meant for other chapters as GW have sought ways of getting these fans to buy new things. I remember when White scars where the fast mechanised legion/chapter(2ed when it was not worth it)then the blood angels stepped onto their toes and if any chapter should have got cavalry it should have been them as well.

 

But remember they dont like us because we the best. I do think the Ultramarines should get their own book with the generic marines book seperate this would reduce the hate. It would allow for more space for some of the other chapters.

[Legatus]

Marshal Wilhelm, those are reasonable points. I think the negative impact would have been much lessened if the current Codex had been released as Codex Ultramarines (which allegedly had been the original idea but was changed at the last minute). People might still have complained that the Ultramarines were described as the best in their own Codex, but well, it would have been unambiguously their Codex.

However, as I said, those are not the specific points this thread's original post sought to adress.

[Octavulg]

No, the negative impact would have been increased. Why? Because at this point, people expect Codex: Space Marines. The only people who would want C:UM are Ultramarines players.

 

Trust me. I would NOT have bought it if it were C:UM.

[Brother Valerius]

I think part of the problem is Wardisms.

He certainly has kept up the 'for 12 year olds' writing style on C:BA and C:GK, so not much different from C:SM.

 

Hey, some of us (by which I mean me) really enjoy that style and don't appreciate people constantly insinuating we must be children... :)

 

It's not a "for 12-year-olds" style, it's an over-the-top style. If that's not your cup of tea, fair enough. But it is others' cup of tea.

[Legatus]

No, the negative impact would have been increased. Why? Because at this point, people expect Codex: Space Marines. The only people who would want C:UM are Ultramarines players.

I dunno, it would still have accounted for 90% of all the Chapters, and possibly have included the Imperial Fists, the Crimson Fists and the Rave Guard. Only the Salamanders, the Iron Hands and the White Scars might not have fit in that well. But people would have been more open to a heavy Ultramarine bias in the stories.

[Octavulg]

Why would the Salamanders and Iron Hands not fit in but the Raven Guard would?

 

But leaving that aside: if people are going to basically be using another codex to represent their army, why would they not use C:BA or C:DA or C:SW? I use C:SM because it's the generic marine codex. Call it C:UM and I'll cheerfully wander off to C:DA and C:SW, which I like better in many aspects anyway. I doubt I'd be the only person to do so.

 

And if you genuinely think people would be less upset by the Ultramarines taking over C:SM to the point of changing the name, I think you're mistaken. It would be more irritating, not less, to many people.

[Decoy]

No, the negative impact would have been increased. Why? Because at this point, people expect Codex: Space Marines. The only people who would want C:UM are Ultramarines players.

I dunno, it would still have accounted for 90% of all the Chapters, and possibly have included the Imperial Fists, the Crimson Fists and the Rave Guard. Only the Salamanders, the Iron Hands and the White Scars might not have fit in that well. But people would have been more open to a heavy Ultramarine bias in the stories.

 

 

I won't say much about Ultramarine successors (because I have neither the time nor interest to learn up on 'em), but honestly, I don't think that C:Ultramarines would have made much difference in the eyes of detractors. It's less about what Codex is being used/written in, and honestly, it's more about the terminology. I, for instance, despise absolutes. I despise them in Chaos books, in the Wolf codex, and in the Marine codex. Establishing something as "The (anything)est" eliminates reader interpretation, forcing the opinion on the reader as a whole. In theory, it is meant to establish clear dominance in the field, but any competent writer avoids such concrete terminology for the simple purpose of avoiding such issues as we are currently discussing.

 

If a Wizard in any fantasy story is "The Best", then he can't be beaten.

 

If a Fighter in any genre is the Strongest fighter, then he cannot be physically outshined.

 

If a villain is "the most cunning", then (theoretically) he can never be beaten on the field of battle by virtue of said cunning; he would have a plan for every contingency.

 

 

Likewise, any Marine army, be they Ultras or Wolves or ... I don't know... Imperial Fists... -should- be indomitable if they are labeled as "the best" in their given fields or abilities. Even such terminology as "exemplars" serves to narrow the literary field, but because so many second-rate authors strive to establish setting utilizing such cheap and dirty excuses of writing, such examples are commonplace and indeed saturate both the worlds of literature and fandom.

 

It isn't solely about Codex: Ultramarines, but more about the cut-rate, off-the-street writing that said Ultras (and other army Codices) have had to suffer through. Some of us -do- care about good writing, not just the Codex it comes wrapped in.

[Ubermensch Commander]

Why would the Salamanders and Iron Hands not fit in but the Raven Guard would?

 

But leaving that aside: if people are going to basically be using another codex to represent their army, why would they not use C:BA or C:DA or C:SW? I use C:SM because it's the generic marine codex. Call it C:UM and I'll cheerfully wander off to C:DA and C:SW, which I like better in many aspects anyway. I doubt I'd be the only person to do so.

 

And if you genuinely think people would be less upset by the Ultramarines taking over C:SM to the point of changing the name, I think you're mistaken. It would be more irritating, not less, to many people.

 

And there would be many people, who really would be fine with it. Especially those of us who remember 2nd edition, when the B. Templars, Imp Fists, etc etc etc were just paint schemes in Codex: Ultramarines. It has been their book since 2nd ed. They are not "taking it over" so much as "returning to form."

 

I am always surprised when people rail at the Ultramarines codex and bring up battles such as Marneus Calgar's battle with the Avatar as a reason, claiming that he somehow single-handedly took it out. He did not nor does the story present it that way. Devatastors, Terminators, and the Codex-Approved Kitchen Sink were thrown at the Avatar before Calgar used Primarch-worthy fists to finally take it out, while collapsing from the strain thereafter. That is actually less "mary suish" than many other stories in other codices, Power Armored or otherwise.

 

Same with the Battle for Macragge. Heroic sacrifice at its finest, a very Space Marine-esque thing, only in the 5th ed book there is mention of a great deal of allies adding in their support, when before it was a largely an Ultramarine battle.

 

 

Nids, for example, had a Zoanthrope beast eat an entire craftworld.

IG had a Stormtrooper sarge walk through a Nurgle infested planet just dandy. There there is the tank ace, taking out multiple titans and surviving his tank getting blown to bits, I believe by a titan though not certain on that, and him just hopping in another.

etc, etc.

 

 

If you are going to rail against the one, rail against the others. Fairness in kvetching!

[The Emperor's Champion]

I remember the BA fluff always saying they are the most noble of all chapters, just like in the fluff I remember that the SW have always been the most ferocious, etc. etc.

The quotes I keep in my signature make this a bit funny:

"The ℧ltramarines are the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters. From the dawn of the Imperium they have served the Emperor with loyalty and a ferocity that no others can match."

"in faith and in valour they are unmatched."

"The ℧ltramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines, the purest and noblest of all Adeptus Astartes."

"Many hold the ℧ltramarines to be the rightful heir not only of Guilliman, but of the Emperor himself."

 

 

But yea, what I think it all boils down to in the end is that this should have been Codex:Ultramarines. It was a mistake to change the name at the last minute and pretend it's something else.

 

I find it a bit dumb to become a fan of some fictional universe and then complain that a long time aspect of it ruins something for you when you find out about it later.

It'd be like becoming a fan of Batman because he's angry grim badass awesome, and then getting annoyed when someone points out that he refuses to kill. Sorry, that's just how it is.

Or you like Marvel Comics but then one day start hating Wolverine when you realize he's completely invincible, or you hate Reed Richards when you realize he's smarter than god, or you hate Captain America when you find out he's the hero all other heroes look up to.

It's all just bits and pieces that make up the whole of whatever it is you came to like.

 

I can understand getting mad if you've been a fan and one day they they start making ridiculous incoherent changes that aren't consistent with what came before, then yea, I can understand whining about that. That'd be stuff like the Blood Angels and Necrons working together, or the Grey Knights sacrificing Battle Sisters and marching around in Gundams....

 

 

 

The Ultramarines have long held their place as the Captain America's of the Imperium. It's what they do, and hopefully they're not gonna stop. All the Grimdark is kinda meaningless and less impressive without a counterpoint to provide contrast. I don't really get the issue people have with the Ultramarines being the best. That just how they are. Their Primarch happened to be a guy with a godlike knack for tactics and organization who codified the rules to win wars, and the Ultramarines have chosen to follow his guide as closely as possible. It's obviously not a matter of Geneseed or anything, or else 2/3rds of the Chapters would also be the "greatest" and everyone else would be in that lower third. No, it's simply down to their dedication to the instructions of their demi-god father.

Does it speak badly of the Space Wolves that they completely ignore the Codex Astartes? No. It's just not how they want to fight. Not how they're comfortable fighting. They fight their way and they get stuff done their way.

[Octavulg]

UMC

And there would be many people, who really would be fine with it.

 

Yes, there would. But the idea that it wouldn't irk the people who find the current codex unpleasantly pro-Ultramarine seems more than a little odd.

 

Furthermore, the fact that many people would be OK with it doesn't mean there wouldn't be people who were upset by it.

 

I mean, I think there would be many people who would be fine with the Ultramarines being erased from the game altogether. It doesn't mean it's a good idea, or that people wouldn't be annoyed.

 

TEC

 

I find it a bit dumb to become a fan of some fictional universe and then complain that a long time aspect of it ruins something for you when you find out about it later.

It'd be like becoming of a fan of Batman because he's angry grim badass awesome, and then getting annoyed when someone points out that he refuses to kill. Sorry, that's just how it is.

Or you like Marvel Comics but then one day start hating Wolverine when you realize he's completely invincible, or you hate Reed Richards when you realize he's smarter than god, or you hate Captain America when you find out he's the hero all other heroes look up to.

It's all just bits and pieces that make up the whole of whatever it is you came to like.

 

And, of course, liking some parts of the whole means you must like all parts of the whole.

 

After all, that's why you love Graham McNeil's work so much. Because it's part of the magnificent whole of the Ultramarines.

 

I can understand getting mad if you've been a fan and one day they they start making ridiculous incoherent changes that aren't consistent with what came before

 

Since much of GW's back catalogue is simply unavailable to most people, the people who joined in 3rd edition (which was the longest and, I believe, most expansive edition so far) might find much of the modern presentation of Ultramarines inconsistent with what came before.

 

And, of course, you're assuming the claims about the Ultramarines aren't ridiculous and incoherent.

[Ubermensch Commander]

UMC

And there would be many people, who really would be fine with it.

 

Yes, there would. But the idea that it wouldn't irk the people who find the current codex unpleasantly pro-Ultramarine seems more than a little odd.

 

Furthermore, the fact that many people would be OK with it doesn't mean there wouldn't be people who were upset by it.

 

I mean, I think there would be many people who would be fine with the Ultramarines being erased from the game altogether. It doesn't mean it's a good idea, or that people wouldn't be annoyed.

 

I suppose I don't understand being upset with the codex being "pro-Ultramarine" when taken in the both development history and in universe setting.

That is like being upset you have to roll dice to play the game, that going swimming gets you wet, or wishing Battletech used less giant robots.

 

EDIT: ahh I see someone else mentioned this. In response to Vulg's response: When it is sucha large and long standing part of the backstory, complaining that they are suddenly "taking over" seems disingenuous and a curious response.

 

EDIT again: Octavulg-No more ridiculous or incoherent than the concept of Space Marines in general, and certainly more coherent than the idea of some of the other chapters.