The Ultramarines throughout the Editions

[Legatus]

Yes, there would. But the idea that it wouldn't irk the people who find the current codex unpleasantly pro-Ultramarine seems more than a little odd.

But wouldn't the issue then be that the Ultramarines got their own Codex, not so much that the Codex was heavily biased in their favour?

 

 

Why would the Salamanders and Iron Hands not fit in but the Raven Guard would?

Because the Raven Guard are pretty much 100% Codex compliant, at least in their organisation. They simply prefer a specific type of operation. The Salamanders and the Iron Hands on the other hand are organised differently, with different Chapter and Company Structures. Though since they both use the standard "Codex" squad layouts, you could probably still have represented them with a basic Space Marines army list.

[Octavulg]

UMC

 

First, it is Codex Space Marines, not Codex Ultramarines. The Ultramarines are like the Black Templars or Salamanders, not like the DA, BA, and SW. Hell, the BT have actually had .5 more army lists than you. The history of the Ultramarines as a ruleset begins and ends in Second Edition. Ultramarine players see C:SM 3e as a blip, when it was the dominant paradigm for codex-adherent Space Marines for the plurality of the game's history (7 years, as opposed to 3 for C:UM, C:SM 4e, and the current codex).

 

Let's look at C:SM 3e.

 

The Ultramarines first appear on page 17 (as a picture of an army). First identifiable picture of a Marine chapter in the codex? Black Templars, on page 6 or 16 (the one on page 6 has the cross on his bolter). They are only 5 of 17 unit pictures in the next section (though one doesn't actually look like an Ultramarine - he's a Terminator Chaplain (the Imperial Fists are 4 and the Crimson Fists and Black Templars each have 2). They are neither of the two example armies from the Studio, though they are used in the sample battle. They are the example for Codex insignia and the painting guide (though, honestly, looking at that squad, I'd say that's not to their credit). They are 4 of 10 sample vehicle pictures, and are the vehicle guide. A number of other examples are presented in both other guides.

 

The first mention of the Ultramarines in the background is on page 33 (and, notably, it features them actually doing something, as opposed to us being told how amazing their strategies were). The Imperial Fists were mentioned on the page 2, and the White Panthers and Silver Skulls on page 3. The introduction to the codex focused on Space Marines generically, and does not mention any particular chapter.

 

Calgar is the first special character, and his background includes a note about how there are people who (gasp!) don't like him. He was put on trial, even, though the scribe assures us it was jealousy (in a tone that embittered me toward the Ultramarines the moment I read it). Tigurius is the second, but then we're on to Captain Cortez, the Emperor's Champion, Chaplain Xavier, and Sergeant Lysander. The vaunted Ultramarines get one more character than other chapters (and you could argue the Emperor's Champion should count for the IF and CF, since they are mentioned in the fluff text).

 

The Ultramarines are the sample chapter organization, but the day plan is generic, involving information drawn from several chapters. And the information on recruitment and fleets is drawn from the Silver Skulls and other chapters.

 

And who was on the cover? The Crimson Fists.

 

That was Codex: Space Marines. In many ways, it feels like it was the last Codex: Space Marines (4e was a compromise effort). It was a survey of Marines, and the Ultramarines featured prominently, as they probably should, but not dominantly and not in a fashion that denigrated the other chapters. Indeed, if any chapter appears the most important in this Codex, it's the Imperial or Crimson Fists.

 

That was many people's first introduction to Space Marines. And if you're confused about why they'd be upset by the Ultramarines receiving a lot of attention the next time around, especially attention presented in a fashion that denigrates their preferred chapters, I think you need to go back and read it again.

 

EDIT again: Octavulg-No more ridiculous or incoherent than the concept of Space Marines in general, and certainly more coherent than the idea of some of the other chapters.

 

More coherent, maybe. But no less ridiculous. Claiming they're the most ferocious? When the BA (and SW and BT) have had special rules to represent their ferocity? Claiming they're the greatest, a subjective judgment that measures massively different things depending on who you ask? Them having an oasis of peace and prosperity that the Imperium admires, but does not seem to imitate? Them being beloved by both Administratum and Marines, despite the fact that those two organizations notoriously distrust each other? And that's just the established stuff - I didn't even have to bring Matt Ward's crap into it.

 

Legatus

 

But wouldn't the issue then be that the Ultramarines got their own Codex, not so much that the Codex was heavily biased in their favour?

 

Depends. If it replaced C:SM, then hell yes there would be an issue.

 

If it did not, then I think people would still dislike them, but they wouldn't care as much. Assuming C:SM didn't take time to suggest we all should have bought C:UM instead, of course.

 

Because the Raven Guard are pretty much 100% Codex compliant, at least in their organisation. They simply prefer a specific type of operation. The Salamanders and the Iron Hands on the other hand are organised differently, with different Chapter and Company Structures. Though since they both use the standard "Codex" squad layouts, you could probably still have represented them with a basic Space Marines army list.

 

Indeed. Not to mention both are considered Codex chapters in any case.

[Ubermensch Commander]

EDIT again: Octavulg-No more ridiculous or incoherent than the concept of Space Marines in general, and certainly more coherent than the idea of some of the other chapters.

 

More coherent, maybe. But no less ridiculous. Claiming they're the most ferocious? When the BA (and SW and BT) have had special rules to represent their ferocity? Claiming they're the greatest, a subjective judgment that measures massively different things depending on who you ask? Them having an oasis of peace and prosperity that the Imperium admires, but does not seem to imitate? Them being beloved by both Administratum and Marines, despite the fact that those two organizations notoriously distrust each other? And that's just the established stuff - I didn't even have to bring Matt Ward's crap into it.

 

Far less ridiculous to me, than say a Chapter that is "So Zealous they get faith bonuses!" What makes the B. Templar more zealous than any other first founding chapter? If their special rules are anything to go by, the height of their tactics is "They shot at us! Run at them FASTER!" I am so glad no one else figured out how to run faster when being shot at, who knows what kind of craziness might ensue.

Pardon me if I have less trouble believing in Space Roman Legions having great military success than I do other chapters whose specialty is "stick em with the pointy end!"

I have this issue with the World Eaters in many of their incarnations as well.

Within said fictional universe, despite the Sci-Fantasy elements, combined arms and varied tactics are still held up, in fluff, as being functional. Luna Wolves, Imperial Guard, Ultramarines, etc all garnered great success by not being overspecialized, one dimensional forces.

 

Yep, the greatest thing is a bit subjective. For that matter, so is ferocious. In what way is the SW/BA/or BT more ferocious? Three different sets of rules that have changed over time, three different characters. Yet all are "feriocious" or "zealous." Quite a bit of competition for the title. If one is going to level the charge at the Ultramarines that they unduely claim to be "the most" of something, apply it fairly and do so to other Astartes as well, since we have more than one claimant in this regard.

 

Macragge- Held as a paragon to follow, even if not many others are capable of doing it. Seems reasonable to me. A guardsmen can hold Cadia in high regard, as I believe is stated in the IG codex, it does not mean they can actually follow that example, for a number of reasons.

 

As for their popularity in universe, it makes sense. The BA, despite wigging out and eating your face/drinking your blood, are noted for being noble, and even Logan Grimnar and his band of crazies get a thumbs up for being somewhat humane amongst the SM chapters (which always struck me as kinda funny given their somewhat feral nature). Surely a Chapter that had such a strong hand in restructuring the Imperium on a bureaucratic, military, and (albeit limited simply due to the diversity and size of said fictional empire) societal level would receive a great deal of cooperation and respect. Long standing backstory of the Ultramarines is that they play well with others. That is a strong part of their character; they helped rebuild worlds they conquered during the Great Crusade, and did so again during the Scouring. The Adminstratum or other institutions may be willing to work with them in the tit-for-tat poltics that make up the Imperium.

 

 

But I figure you don't agree with any of those, do ya? :)

[The Emperor's Champion]

TEC

I find it a bit dumb to become a fan of some fictional universe and then complain that a long time aspect of it ruins something for you when you find out about it later.

It'd be like becoming of a fan of Batman because he's angry grim badass awesome, and then getting annoyed when someone points out that he refuses to kill. Sorry, that's just how it is.

Or you like Marvel Comics but then one day start hating Wolverine when you realize he's completely invincible, or you hate Reed Richards when you realize he's smarter than god, or you hate Captain America when you find out he's the hero all other heroes look up to.

It's all just bits and pieces that make up the whole of whatever it is you came to like.

And, of course, liking some parts of the whole means you must like all parts of the whole.

No but, if people were logical, it would mean not complaining about things that have existed as part of a thing longer than you've even known that thing exists.

 

 

After all, that's why you love Graham McNeil's work so much. Because it's part of the magnificent whole of the Ultramarines.

Yes, because CLEARLY McNiell wrote the Ultramarines books back in second edition....? And really, in a sense, his books aren't so bad (aside from a couple massively stupid things, like letting Ventris back into the Chapter). Ventris is a moron, and I hate that they'd make this idiot the focus of a series titled "Ultramarines" when he's clearly the worst example of an Ultramarine in the whole Chapter. But if he was an Ultramarine and the series wasn't ostensibly about the Ultramarines, and just called the "Ventris Series" or whatever, fine. I'd be cool with that. So it's the tale of one Marine gone wrong, not a series about the actual Chapter *shrug*

And really, McNiell wrote the Index Astartes:Ultramarines, which is part of the standard he's being held to...

 

 

I can understand getting mad if you've been a fan and one day they they start making ridiculous incoherent changes that aren't consistent with what came before

Since much of GW's back catalogue is simply unavailable to most people, the people who joined in 3rd edition (which was the longest and, I believe, most expansive edition so far) might find much of the modern presentation of Ultramarines inconsistent with what came before.

Only if you go back to Rogue Trader, really. Other than that it's pretty minor changes here and there...

 

 

And, of course, you're assuming the claims about the Ultramarines aren't ridiculous and incoherent.

Incoherent? No. Ridiculous? Less ridiculous than most of 40k...

[Octavulg]

UMC

Yep, the greatest thing is a bit subjective. For that matter, so is ferocious. In what way is the SW/BA/or BT more ferocious? Three different sets of rules that have changed over time, three different characters. Yet all are "feriocious" or "zealous." Quite a bit of competition for the title. If one is going to level the charge at the Ultramarines that they unduely claim to be "the most" of something, apply it fairly and do so to other Astartes as well, since we have more than one claimant in this regard.

 

I'm not claiming that any of them are the most ferocious. I'm pointing out how stupid it is to claim that the Ultrmarines are when there are three chapters that all have an actual in-game basis to claim the title (leaving aside any questions of fluff, where the Ultramarines also would stack up poorly in that regard next to various ravening, bloodthirsty loonies).

 

Nor am I saying they could not be the greatest chapter. Only that it is just as reasonable to claim the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, or many others are the greatest. As I've said before - all you have to do is make "be at the Siege of Terra" a requirement and they're out.

 

Furthermore, the Ultramarines make these claims in Codex: Space Marines. Not in Codex Ultramarines. Until you get that, you're never going to understand a large part of why it bothers people.

 

In regard to the various justifications for why the Ultramarines are allowed to be so wondrous - this would be much more believable if not for a few things.

 

1) The 40K universe hates a winner

2) The inhabitants of the 40K universe hate winners. They find them suspicious.

3) The Administratum and Inquisition don't trust the Space Marines.

4) The Space Marines don't trust the Inquisition and Administratum

5) The portrayal of the Ultramarines bears a suspicious resemblance to the more Mary-Sueish examples of DIY chapters. They're only missing secret traitor geneseed and a Titan.

 

* * *

 

TEC

No but, if people were logical, it would mean not complaining about things that have existed as part of a thing longer than you've even known that thing exists.

 

Fine - then don't complain about people thinking the Ultramarines suck. I assure you, that's existed longer than you've been playing 40K.

 

Oh, and to address your original example - Batman used to kill people all the time. With a gun, IIRC.

 

People can agree and disagree with parts of things to their heart's content. The fact that the Ultramarines were portrayed a certain way at one point does not make people wrong if they object to that portrayal being revived. They just can't claim it's wholly unprecedented. They can claim it's inconsistent, it's unwise, it's flawed, it's insulting, and it's the wrong thing to do, though.

 

Like if they decided Batman was going to kill people with a gun again - is it inconsistent? Yes. Is it unwise? Possibly. Is it unprecedented? No.

 

The Ultramarines portrayal as the most wondrous of the wonderful was, for one of the more popular periods in 40K, both difficult to find and a lot more subdued. So it's perfectly acceptable to disagree with it.

 

Only if you go back to Rogue Trader, really. Other than that it's pretty minor changes here and there...

 

Not true, as I explained at length. C:SM 3e was very different from C:UM, and that was most people's primary source of info on the Space Marines.

 

Incoherent? No. Ridiculous? Less ridiculous than most of 40k...

 

Really? Not incoherent? What about the way they're the most codex-adherent but change it all the time? I mean, by that logic, the only thing stopping chapters from being codex adherent is that they lost their erasers.

[Marshal Rohr]

Why the must you guys keep doing this?

[Decoy]

Why the must you guys keep doing this?

 

 

It's the Ultra forum, mate. There's only two things that go on here; debate about Ultrahate, or GC08's Scout army, which half the time ends up in an Ultrahate debate anyways. There's a reason this forum is so sparse.

[Octavulg]

Please. Sometimes they complain about McNeil.

[Legatus]

I had made a few attempts to not have it develope into a discussion about the presentation of current Ultramarines fluff, but it was to little effect.

 

Perhaps we can halt the discussion about the problems with the current Codex at this point. There is no denying that there are issues and it could have been done much better.

 

This thread was supposed to present a historical account of all the instances where the Ultramarines had been particularly featured by GW. I myself only learned about a few of those instances just recently. I think that paints a very strong image of the Ultramarines being the Space Marines posterboys ever since Rogue Trader. I had hoped that this might soothe some animosity that was based on an impression of GW suddenly pushing the Ultramarines, since GW had indeed not focused that much on them in 3rd Edition, as Octavulg has pointed out. This can obviously not affect animosity based on the nature of the fluff in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines. (Unless a more global animosity reducing effect would also affect the way people view that fluff.)

[The Emperor's Champion]

TEC

No but, if people were logical, it would mean not complaining about things that have existed as part of a thing longer than you've even known that thing exists.

 

Fine - then don't complain about people thinking the Ultramarines suck. I assure you, that's existed longer than you've been playing 40K.

Let's assume we're talking about fictional universes, that people voluntarily seek out and become fans of. :rolleyes:

 

 

Oh, and to address your original example - Batman used to kill people all the time. With a gun, IIRC.

Alright, fine. Bad example, I guess. Batman's so damn old it's really hard to keep track.

 

People can agree and disagree with parts of things to their heart's content. The fact that the Ultramarines were portrayed a certain way at one point does not make people wrong if they object to that portrayal being revived. They just can't claim it's wholly unprecedented. They can claim it's inconsistent, it's unwise, it's flawed, it's insulting, and it's the wrong thing to do, though.

Not saying it makes 'em wrong, just pointless and a bit silly.

 

Like if they decided Batman was going to kill people with a gun again - is it inconsistent? Yes. Is it unwise? Possibly. Is it unprecedented? No.

They can feel free. As long as it's not some random inexplicable change, people can usually handle it.

 

The Ultramarines portrayal as the most wondrous of the wonderful was, for one of the more popular periods in 40K, both difficult to find and a lot more subdued. So it's perfectly acceptable to disagree with it.

To not like it is fine, to disagree with it as if it were wrong isn't. That just means they don't know what they're talking about, which is probably mankind's biggest problem in general. The fact that being ignorantly opinionated is considered acceptable is just downright depressing.

 

Only if you go back to Rogue Trader, really. Other than that it's pretty minor changes here and there...

 

Not true, as I explained at length. C:SM 3e was very different from C:UM, and that was most people's primary source of info on the Space Marines.

C:SM 3e is a completely ridiculous thing to hinge your point on. Not only was it a bare bones Codex like all the rest of the early 3rd edition books because they were all put out quickly to replace the entirety of 2nd edition's invalidated army lists ASAP, It also starts with over 1000 Ultramarines and damn near ends with the same, and then it has twice as many Ultramarines characters to boot. The fact that the whole book has a bare minimum of fluff would be the only reason it has any different of tone. And if that's ANYONE'S primary source of info about Space Marines I will mock them, because there's just almost nothing in there.

 

Incoherent? No. Ridiculous? Less ridiculous than most of 40k...

 

Really? Not incoherent? What about the way they're the most codex-adherent but change it all the time? I mean, by that logic, the only thing stopping chapters from being codex adherent is that they lost their erasers.

Are you just being really Canadian? I can't tell.... I don't know enough about Canada's government.

Maybe this makes more sense when you understand US Constitution adherence and Constitutional Amendments...

[Captain Idaho]

I haven't really been involved in this thread, but I'm going to be honest here:

 

I don't really see the point of it. Yes, the original post shows everyone how the Ultramarines are included in each edition of the game since time immorial, but what does that solve? Legatus, if I'm not mistaken, you are proposing directing people who complain about the Ultramarines being the focus of Codex Space Marines to this thread? Surely it takes no extra effort to say "actually all editions have had alot of emphasis on Ultramarines being one of the big four, with several spin offs also"?

 

Of course that doesn't take into account that precedent means nothing when you consider Codex Space Marines focussing on a single Chapter doesn't do much to promote the individualism of other Chapters. Right or wrong, people who don't collect the Chapter of focus will feel left alone in the cold, dark of 40K foot notes and resent the fact the focus was for the "one" Chapter, so being told there is precedent matters very little to the problem at hand.

 

On the other side of the fence, I think throwing accusations about the members of the forum always having rows regarding certain topics but also to have heated discussion with them on that very matter is a little ironic. If you really want to comment, why not just quote this:

 

I don't really see the point of it. Yes, the original post shows everyone how the Ultramarines are included in each edition of the game since time immorial, but what does that solve? Legatus, if I'm not mistaken, you are proposing directing people who complain about the Ultramarines being the focus of Codex Space Marines to this thread? Surely it takes no extra effort to say "actually all editions have had alot of emphasis on Ultramarines being one of the big four, with several spin offs also"?

 

Of course that doesn't take into account that precedent means nothing when you consider Codex Space Marines focussing on a single Chapter doesn't do much to promote the individualism of other Chapters. Right or wrong, people who don't collect the Chapter of focus will feel left alone in the cold, dark of 40K foot notes and resent the fact the focus was for the "one" Chapter.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Anyway, not meaning to ruffle feathers, but I think this is getting out of hand for no good reason.

[Balroth]

It's the Ultra forum, mate. There's only two things that go on here; debate about Ultrahate, or GC08's Scout army, which half the time ends up in an Ultrahate debate anyways. There's a reason this forum is so sparse.

 

We'll be sure to give you a shout next time we need a particularly moronic opinion that adds nothing to the debate at hand. Thanks.

 

And can we try and get back on topic? It seems that TEC and Octavulg are arguing semantics, which is a bit pointless.

 

Is this post too 'mod-wannabe'? Sorry if it is.

 

Anyway, as Legatus said, there are really two different discussions going on here, one about the portrayal of the Ultramarines in the current codex (for the record I hate it with a fiery passion too, and while I appreciate 'more Ultramarines', it's really harmed others' perception of the Chapter), which is only semi relevant to the main discussion about the Ultramarines' historic portrayal.

 

I guess the biggest problem is that GW veered away from giving the Ultramarines their own Codex in 3rd Ed, presumably because that edition's Codexes focused mainly on rules, which weren't different enough between the Ultramarines and the other 'Small 996' (see what I did there?). I personally think this was a mistake, and 3rd Edition was a low point. I love the background far more than I love the rules, so I'm somewhat glad we saw a return to this.

 

The problem is of course that you can't cover 996 Chapters' background in one book, so there always had to be a focus. You could have focused on the Heresy, but that was 10k years ago in the timeline, and I'm sure most players would appreciate something more recent.

 

So there had to be a choice of focus, and Games Workshop went for the remaining one of the Big Four that didn't have its own book previously but has been featured prominently in the background since Rogue Trader.

 

Makes sense to me.

 

-B

[Marshal Rohr]

It would be best if the words Ward and Ultrahate were added to the filter. We could keep this pointless clutter of cluster:cussery out of the forum at large. It gets so tiresome to see it all the time.

[Octavulg]

TEC

 

Alright, fine. Bad example, I guess. Batman's so damn old it's really hard to keep track.

 

I dunno. I think it kinda makes your point even better. :tu:

 

To not like it is fine, to disagree with it as if it were wrong isn't. That just means they don't know what they're talking about, which is probably mankind's biggest problem in general. The fact that being ignorantly opinionated is considered acceptable is just downright depressing.

 

Why can't people say it's wrong? They can attack the logic behind it, they can attack the quality of the writing, they can attack its implications and its larger purpose.

 

I mean, that's basically literary criticism. Or any form of criticism, really. Including, for example, legal scholarship, which is a remarkably important impetus in changing things (though not as important as the legal scholars would like).

 

C:SM 3e is a completely ridiculous thing to hinge your point on. Not only was it a bare bones Codex like all the rest of the early 3rd edition books because they were all put out quickly to replace the entirety of 2nd edition's invalidated army lists ASAP, It also starts with over 1000 Ultramarines and damn near ends with the same, and then it has twice as many Ultramarines characters to boot. The fact that the whole book has a bare minimum of fluff would be the only reason it has any different of tone. And if that's ANYONE'S primary source of info about Space Marines I will mock them, because there's just almost nothing in there.

 

And yet it was all there was for large chunks of 3rd edition.

 

And considering it provides information on fleets, recruitment, chapter structure, several examples of Space Marines in action, and how space marines actually spend their time, I think it did a pretty good job. The current codex certainly doesn't offer that much more actual information (indeed, it offers less on some subjects).

 

Furthermore, I think the differences in emphasis speak for themselves. The Ultramarines are relatively de-emphasized - there were plenty of areas where they could have been involved all by themselves, but other chapters were mentioned instead or multiple chapters were used. C:SM was damn good at being a codex for the Codex chapters.

 

Are you just being really Canadian? I can't tell.... I don't know enough about Canada's government.

Maybe this makes more sense when you understand US Constitution adherence and Constitutional Amendments...

 

Poor example. Most countries only a unique constitution. The ones that share them tend to share unwritten bits (Canada, for example, shares a number of unwritten British principles).

 

If it's adherence to the written letter of the codex, then that's not a very impressive feat at all. If it's adherence to the spirit of the codex, then that's something that's highly subjective - just so many of the other Ultramarine accomplishments and accolades. Not to mention something that twenty-plus other chapters have an equal claim to.

 

* * *

 

Balroth

 

The problem is of course that you can't cover 996 Chapters' background in one book, so there always had to be a focus.

 

You know, when you hang around here often enough, patterns emerge. One of those is the repeated claim that codices need to focus on a single chapter or faction in order to be popular. Usually, I note, by people who play the focused-upon chapter.

 

And, of course, we know this to be true. Examples like Codex: Eldar, Codex: CSM 3.5, Codex: SM 3e, Codex: Tau, Codex: Necrons, Codex: Orks, Codex: Dark Eldar, Codex: Imperial Guard, and Codex: Tyranids remind us that, no matter what, people can't identify with a general group, but must instead identify with one specific example of that group. Without that one specific example at the forefront, a faction will wither, die, and never amount to anything.

 

But wait! All those examples prove the exact opposite! It's almost like I set those examples up to prove what a ridiculous concept the idea of codices needing focus is! Damn, I'm good!

 

I liked C:SM 3e. I remember enjoying how I felt like there were a myriad of possibilities for what Space Marine chapters could be like, how the Imperium didn't fully understand them (no, that's not the lack of information. That's the way the information was presented) or what they did, and how every chapter seemed to be important and awesome. It told me more about the Space Marines as a group than C:SM 5e, and it did it in a lot less space. And it didn't need to take the time to imply that choosing anything other than Ultramarines was making an inferior choice.

 

All pushing one chapter does is alienate people who don't like that chapter. If codex chapters are so similar, you can explain what they're like without much trouble, then highlight the differences. You can even fit the Ultramarines in, and do it without denigrating everyone else.

[Legatus]

Legatus, if I'm not mistaken, you are proposing directing people who complain about the Ultramarines being the focus of Codex Space Marines to this thread? Surely it takes no extra effort to say "actually all editions have had alot of emphasis on Ultramarines being one of the big four, with several spin offs also"?

There is saying that, as "some guy on the internet", and then there is showing it and giving references.

[Balroth]

But wait! All those examples prove the exact opposite! It's almost like I set those examples up to prove what a ridiculous concept the idea of codices needing focus is! Damn, I'm good!

 

Oooh smarm.

 

It's a reasonable point though, although the supposed 'differences' between (for instance) Eldar Craftworlds are less than those between Marine Chapters I think.

 

I guess focusing on the First Founding Chapters would have been acceptable. But then of course, this isn't my choice to make.

 

Re 3rd Edition: I'm not going to argue with you of course. Your opinion is just as valid as mine (but not quite as right, obviously :tu: ).

 

-B

[Marshal Wilhelm]

It would be best if the words Ward and Ultrahate were added to the filter. We could keep this pointless clutter of cluster:cussery out of the forum at large. It gets so tiresome to see it all the time.

 

It does appear with monotony.

But Ultra players seem to be surprised at it. It is not the faction, it is the way GW has presented them. Ward was the last straw for many people. But many have felt jipped by "The Greatest" since, well, forever. Before we ignored it as over the top favouritism. When the noise gets louder, you can only talk over the top of it for so long.

 

Basically, Ultra players need to recognise that Ultras get heavy handed treatment that grates other players. It is unfortunate that Ultra players have to here the backlash that is really for GW.

 

TEC is a prime example of being dull to what grates other faction's players. Which is why he'll always be surprised at people getting annoyed at Ultras.

TEC lists of all these superlatives, and wonders why pointing out these lines in the text about why "mine is superior to yours" gets a bad reaction from people.

You see many threads where Bob and TEC starts arguing X, then Bob just gives up. TEC just doesn't get it.

 

Having Captain America as da boss, when Superman could fold all the super heroes into origami, doesn't make a good story, just because Marvel wrote it.

Bad writing is bad, regardless of it being legitimate or not.

 

Magneto and Storm are clearly the high powered X-men, yet "grumpy Wolverine who is so hardcore because he is grumpy and hardcore" is the one who is portrayed as

the X-men to be/idolise/follow. That either Magneto or Storm could kill him fairly easily totally undoes that. Yet we are expected to tow the line....

 

"I am the best because GW says I am the best. Why are you mad?"

If you can't see that is bad writing in the first place, and then a very difficult attitude to deal with in the second place, then TEC and other Ultramarine will always be mystified as to why dudes are annoyed by what GW has done.

 

GW has made some stinkers over the years:

Squats, -1 initiative Salamanders, ugly miniature Deldar, etc.

We've all hoped they'd go away. All of those things have, but other things, like GW writing tight rules, etc. are still with us. The majority of us had hoped GW would stop getting so hyped up when writing about Ultramarines by calling them the greatest.

It hasn't happened and we still yet live in hope.

 

We've explained the reasons why we don't like it. Ultramarine players can either realise that not just being great in X, but the GREATEST is very inflammatory or not. But saying "I don't get Ultrahate [which shouldn't be directed at the players, btw] when it has been explained, is why this keeps coming up.

 

Not only do people want outsiders to acknowledge "I am the best because GW says I am the best." but for them to also like it too.

You are kidding right?

[Gree]

Having Captain America as da boss, when Superman could fold all the super heroes into origami, doesn't make a good story, just because Marvel wrote it.

Bad writing is bad, regardless of it being legitimate or not.

 

That's a horrible example for two reasons. Captain America is Marvel. Superman is DC. They don't even exist in the same fictional universe.

 

Secondly, just because you can juggle mountains doesn't make you a good leader. Lex Luthor has no superpowers, but is easily Superman's greatest foe because most of the other superpowered metas are idiots compared to Luthor.

 

Magneto and Storm are clearly the high powered X-men, yet "grumpy Wolverine who is so hardcore because he is grumpy and hardcore" is the one who is portrayed as

the X-men to be/idolise/follow. That either Magneto or Storm could kill him fairly easily totally undoes that. Yet we are expected to tow the line....

 

This isn't 40k where the strongest and toughest lead the group. In comics you often have the leader be the leader because he's the best at leading, not because he's the most badass out of all of them.

 

Wolverine is popular because he sells like hotcakes. People buy his issues. Magneto and Storm have their fanbases yes, but Wolverine is like the Marvel equivalent of the Space Wolves in 40k. There is a reason why he get's his own movie and televison series.

 

He's even got a trope named after it.

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main...verinePublicity

 

It'as different than the Ultramarines. In Marvel Wolverine is one of their most popular characters next to Deadpool and Spiderman. In 40k the Ultramarines may be the poster boys, but their fanbase is second to chapters like the Wolves and the BA.

[The Emperor's Champion]

I'm rarely mystified by anything that people do. People's minds aren't usually hard to follow.

[Arkangilos]

My only problem is that it is Ward that gets the fire for this. Ward did NOT do anything new, he only wrote what GW had established. It is like shooting a messager.

 

I ALWAYS remember the Ultra's being the best, and I always remember my dad (who collects everything), saying, "See, it says right there! They are the best!" In which case I pull out the BA codexes and Index Astartes, as well as the SW ones and say, "See right there! The Noblest! The Fiercest!" In which case we laugh and let it go, because they all say they are the best.

 

In fact, if you want to see someone say they are the best, go onto the Black Templar forum and read the thread, "So what possition day they hold." Every single one of the BT players said they are far superior to every single chapter in existance, and list a long and comprehensive explination of why. And they do it with a matter-of-fact-there-is-no-doubt attitude. Did I agree with it? Heck no! But did it make sense, and seem right? Oh yes, it did.

 

Point is, it says they are the best, and in a way, they are. But in a way, so are all of the other First Foundings. At least, all of the ones with a Codex.

 

Another reason I don't like the Ultra's is not because the fluff or "wardism" (and I hate the Ward-Bash SO much), its because they were good enough to come in and say, "Hey, guess what, you follow our rules now. Break up your legions!" And they did that forcefully, even though they weren't at the Palace. But you know what? The noble Blood Angels thought it was necessary too. That says something.

 

And TEC, the Blood Angels have always been said to be the Noblest. And even with your quote saying that GW says otherwise, I will always believe they are. We are also the most Humble...

[Gree]

Another reason I don't like the Ultra's is not because the fluff or "wardism" (and I hate the Ward-Bash SO much), its because they were good enough to come in and say, "Hey, guess what, you follow our rules now. Break up your legions!" And they did that forcefully, even though they weren't at the Palace. But you know what? The noble Blood Angels thought it was necessary too. That says something.

 

That's a gross oversimplification of what actually happened, you do realize?

[Arkangilos]

Another reason I don't like the Ultra's is not because the fluff or "wardism" (and I hate the Ward-Bash SO much), its because they were good enough to come in and say, "Hey, guess what, you follow our rules now. Break up your legions!" And they did that forcefully, even though they weren't at the Palace. But you know what? The noble Blood Angels thought it was necessary too. That says something.

 

That's a gross oversimplification of what actually happened, you do realize?

 

Yes I do, but I figured it would be clear what I mean. Do I need to change it?

[Gree]

Another reason I don't like the Ultra's is not because the fluff or "wardism" (and I hate the Ward-Bash SO much), its because they were good enough to come in and say, "Hey, guess what, you follow our rules now. Break up your legions!" And they did that forcefully, even though they weren't at the Palace. But you know what? The noble Blood Angels thought it was necessary too. That says something.

 

That's a gross oversimplification of what actually happened, you do realize?

 

Yes I do, but I figured it would be clear what I mean. Do I need to change it?

 

Your posting style is your own. When posting examples I usually try to make myself as clear and objective as possible. If you are going to pull up that as an example then I suggest you do it in a differant manner. Just a suggestion though.

[Marshal Rohr]

Tel makes a good point. If you ask any other chapter who is the best they will explain why. They will find relevant quotes that point out the relative qualities the player thinks defines what makes a chapter the best. Willy and I will both tell you the Templars are the best because we wage war in the manner if the ancient legions. A Space Wolf will tell you it's because they are rock hard champions who live to kick ass. A Blood Angel will tell you nobility in the face of darkness is what makes someone great. A Dark Angel will say the stubborn, ruthless determination to get the job done nonmatter the cost make them the greatest.

 

When someone asks an Ultramarine all you get is a hyperbolic quote and the GW says so line. Legatus is the only one of you frequent participators who vocalizes that regardless of the quotes the professional soldier aspect is what makes them the greatest. Stop relying on GW to win your battles for you and start defending the aspects you like most and join the rest of us.

 

You invalidate your own arguments the moment you go near what GW pushed because your being lazy and it's a cop out. Legatus is the only one who understands this, and it's why he gets more respect in these debates. He brings up background that isn't gushing accolades, he has a strict view of his own Leg-verse in which he builds his arguments from it. The rest of you are content to sit back and throw quotes around without even attempting an explanation.

 

 

 

*Cpt Idaho is good about it too he's just never around anymore :tu:

[The Emperor's Champion]

I, at least, think of it as bad form. You can just go refer to Post #15.

 

Moreover, none of the reasons are remotely obscure so it seems pointless to rub them in.

People bitch in greater magnitude about the actual reasons than they bitch about GW's simple statements. The simple statements tend to attract more frequent but fleeting bitching.