Codex: Chaos Legions

[Lord Ragnarok]

What is meant by "One book to rule them all"?

 

I don't know, but it should be the codex Chaos Legions, dont you think?

It's about time.

 

Does not make sense when you read it in context. It is more referring to 6th Edition Rule Book. That said, I'll ask in the main RB rumor thread as this is for Chaos Legions.

 

I'm excited about this, as almost anything, even a Ward-esque book, is better than what we have right now.

[caboosebe]

I'm excited about this, as almost anything, even a Ward-esque book, is better than what we have right now.

Careful now Brother, you might up ending regretting that :P

[totgeboren]

Redoing legions would be a big mistake. The way of win is to take the warband concept and build it to coherency. None of the fluff we have seen has shown the legions as whole since 40k came out*. The reason the legion concept seems decent is because of the non-concept in 4th. We need special characters worth taking. Warbands that people actually want to play. Its not space marine chapters vs. chaos legions now, it's space marine chapters vs. chaos warbands. We need them to show us decendancy. It needs to be shown how your marines can be in a warband but still be wordbearers or worldeaters, or night lords. Special characters need to talk about the warband they belong to. Typhus leads a specific faction of death guard. They should make it more apparent.

 

But what about those Legions, like the Word Bearers, whose fluff explicitly tells us that they still fight as a Legion, but split up into Hosts, who function like Chapters? I just don't see why the next Chaos codex should explicitly Not allow me to play my army according to the background?

[the jeske]

I'm excited about this, as almost anything, even a Ward-esque book, is better than what we have right now.

Careful now Brother, you might up ending regretting that :P

well they could make something like the nid dex with it . tons of options nothing realy very playable.

[A D-B]

Redoing legions would be a big mistake. The way of win is to take the warband concept and build it to coherency. None of the fluff we have seen has shown the legions as whole since 40k came out*. The reason the legion concept seems decent is because of the non-concept in 4th. We need special characters worth taking. Warbands that people actually want to play. Its not space marine chapters vs. chaos legions now, it's space marine chapters vs. chaos warbands. We need them to show us decendancy. It needs to be shown how your marines can be in a warband but still be wordbearers or worldeaters, or night lords. Special characters need to talk about the warband they belong to. Typhus leads a specific faction of death guard. They should make it more apparent.

 

But what about those Legions, like the Word Bearers, whose fluff explicitly tells us that they still fight as a Legion, but split up into Hosts, who function like Chapters? I just don't see why the next Chaos codex should explicitly Not allow me to play my army according to the background?

 

That's not what he means.

 

"Warband" doesn't mean "Legion or Warband".

 

A warband can be anything, but it's mostly just your army on the table, really. The Word Bearers call their warbands "Hosts", for example. A renegade Chapter becomes a warband, or could break up into several. A Night Lords force sailing to do some raiding is a Night Lords warband.

 

It's not about negating the concept of Legions. It's about realising how immense those were, and how differently they operate to both normal Marine Chapters, and to how they operated in the Horus Heresy (in some cases, not much, beyond changing the name and size of their warbands, for example: from Chapters and Companies to Hosts, in the case of the Word Bearers).

 

There are as many different concepts and possibilities of warbands as there are warbands themselves, i.e. a hell of a lot.

 

We're too mired in "Legions versus Warbands", as if such a division actually exists.

 

Sure, some warbands will be Renegade Chapters. Some will be all Legionnaires from a single Legion. It's the word itself, and the concept it covers, that's getting misinterpreted.

[the jeske]

A renegade Chapter becomes a warband, or could break up into several

and they would have enough fuel , ammo , parts for repairs and ships to transport them ?

 

 

We're too mired in "Legions versus Warbands", as if such a division actually exists.

well either there is a high command and a chain and structure in the legions or there are warbands . how legions would work if they had structure makes sense . a deadly enviroment means you need to keep your dudes close , it is easier to get ammo and fuel and secure a base when thereis 20k of you and not 200. It is also easier to get stuff , when you know that if you come back you wont find a pile of ash [which more or less what happens if 100+ marines would try to hold a planet/demon world] .

the warbands way of doing legions means there is no high command , god knows how they resupply . the big ones , how the smaller 100+ marines group survive at all would be border line impossible they would have to be on the brink of destruction all the time[ for 10k years in the most deadly enviroment there is and if they were realy succeful they would either get bigger or get the attention from bigger/more powerful groups because in the eye everything that is not your people is the enemy .

Am not saying that it couldnt happen . The AL works like that , but they work inside the empire and have a huge network of spies and sleeper agents [which is more or less their whole theame] some partly implanted battlebrothers . It wouldnt work for the other legions [WE sleeper agents 0_o ] .

 

But the most important thing would be that if legions post heresy were all independent warbands , then how do they make those huge attacks like the NL planed to do on Ulthwé? why would the smaller leaders risk the destrution of their own smaller warbands [sacrificing pawns is normal in the w40k world] , when the big gains would always go to the strongest [the demonhood , the resources etc].

 

It would also make the EC/WE fluff make no sense . if they are said [well the WE] to be on the brink of destrution post the legion break up in to warbands , then why would other legions that divided in to warbands [if that was true] not on the brink of destruction ?

[Furniture]

The main draw of the Legions to me is simple. Personally, I miss the 3rd edition legion days. I want to be able to play a Death Guard army that has more available to it than just Plague Marine troop choices. I want real Plague Terminators, Dreadnoughts and vehicles with marks, and I want restrictions telling me what belongs and what doesn't in my pure Nurgle force (no, Oblits aren't Death Guard, and neither are Raptors) without having to refer to my old codex for the answers to stay fluffy. I want Emperor's Children Sonic Dreadnoughts, Alpha Legion cultists, Word Bearer Dark Apostles, and other things to give my army some more flavor.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Legions, but I'm not against the "warband concept." I'm well aware that even in 3rd edition a Khornate World Eaters force was still a warband and not a Legion. That's obvious - you can't field a whole legion. Every force we field is a warband led by our HQ choices. The argument here isn't Legions vs Warbands. By saying that we want Legions back, we are saying that we want unqiue, fluffy, and flavorful armies that represent the Legion that our warband belongs to. That's all. After the past few years of being on the back burner, I think Chaos players deserve getting the option for Legions back.

 

 

I'm excited about this, as almost anything, even a Ward-esque book, is better than what we have right now.

 

Be careful what you wish for, Aspiring Champion. That path is a dark, dark path from which there is no return. The Four are fickle, and the Changer's favorite hobby is to give mortals more than they bargained for.

[A D-B]

But the most important thing would be that if legions post heresy were all independent warbands

 

They're not. You're assuming "warband" means "independent warbands" or implies a grand dissolution of the Legions. Some warbands are independent. Some aren't. Some care. Some don't. The entire spectrum of possibility is on display. That's the point. The Legions are still united and best friends for a lot of warbands. Others don't care, and have little to do with their brothers.

 

Warband isn't a dirty word. It means "a group of Chaos Marines", and says nothing about their allegiance or organisation. That's what confuses people. Too many people assume it implies everything about their allegiance, size, supplies, etc. which is where the confusion comes in.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I'm excited about this, as almost anything, even a Ward-esque book, is better than what we have right now.

Careful now Brother, you might up ending regretting that :P

well they could make something like the nid dex with it . tons of options nothing realy very playable.

 

I have a feeling that GW will want to tap into that old pipeline of chaos player cash and if anything the worry will being too OTT vs not good enough.

[hushrong]

I like the sound of these rumors, I have been tempted to find the previous CSM dex and build a force along it's guidelines. *I like the character it has. Now hearing of a possible Legion dex has me enticed and I will be patient & hopeful for some more rumors.

 

As for all this warband jibberjabber, it can mean a huge force of chaos marines that banded together(for whatever reasons like red corsairs) or you can view it as the evil equivalent of a loyalist SM strike force. Basically, an Iron Warrior warsmith looking at his grand company and telling half of them to go to planet A to mess stuff up. They've just become a warband although they are still part of a larger force. I view the legion bit to mean the original legions that that resisted the false emperor and how they function with their unique background compared to their 'brothers in arms'.

[Warsmith IV]

I think an excellent example of a supposedly "shattered" command structure is the World Eaters. Yes, since Skallathrax they have more or less given up on operating on a large, organised scale. In other words, they are warbands who don't in general take orders from others unless it suits them.

 

Enter Angron in M38, decides to get some slaughtering of the Imperium done. It's been a while after all. And what happens? 50,000 berserkers of the World Eaters answer the Primarch's call. Because even independent warbands will come together when someone who ranks really high in the legion tells them to.

[A D-B]

I think an excellent example of a supposedly "shattered" command structure is the World Eaters. Yes, since Skallathrax they have more or less given up on operating on a large, organised scale. In other words, they are warbands who don't in general take orders from others unless it suits them.

 

Enter Angron in M38, decides to get some slaughtering of the Imperium done. It's been a while after all. And what happens? 50,000 berserkers of the World Eaters answer the Primarch's call. Because even independent warbands will come together when someone who ranks really high in the legion tells them to.

 

Beautifully illustrated, good sir.

[Paradigm]

@ A D-B and Warsmith IV, I couldn't have said it better. It's funny how incomprehensible a feudal system has become in the 21st century.

 

@ Furniture, I'd love to see more options in the next dex, and I'm sure there will be. However the thing that scares me is restriction. Chaos has always been an idea of limitless possibility. There is no reason why you couldn't build a death guard list with raptors, the death guard did have assault troops, and after 10k years it matters little anyways. By now there is certainly a decent distribution of different warriors across all the warbands.

 

The 3.5 dex was a fun, but far too complicated codex, it really didn't show things as they have continually been described. The removal of cult units from 4.0 was a mistake, but they were headed in the right direction. They just took it too far. If you could mark terminators and give them sound weaponry, or inferno bolts, and were fearless, they'd effectively be cult troops. Should we restrict who gets what for wargear, maybe, but as long as there is some way to show not just tzeenchian terminators, but thousand sons terminators, I think we'd all be happy.

[freaky fryer]

God Damn!The possibility of yet another main rulebook,and all the new codex's to go with it.I am quite happy with the currant Chaos codex and the rules from the main rulebook.Does'nt anyone get sick and tired of filling GW's pockets,when they are just rehashing the same thing over and over again?I agree with Brother Nihm on this one,i am a bitter old man as well.

[Zincite]

Yes I'm a bitter old man. :)

The funny thing is; I'm a bitter young man, and am unimpressed with these dazzling 'things'.

 

I love irony.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I am quite happy with the currant Chaos codex

 

The rest of your post, yes. This bit, no.

 

Yes, we're tired of filling GW's pockets. But GW makes the materiel for our hobby, at least, miniature wise.

 

Zincite - You and me.

[Cigar_of_Nurgle]

I'm so happy for this news! I went outside and screamed for an hour and played my vuvuzela!

[Cigar_of_Nurgle]

I am quite happy with the currant Chaos codex

 

The rest of your post, yes. This bit, no.

 

Yes, we're tired of filling GW's pockets. But GW makes the materiel for our hobby, at least, miniature wise.

 

Zincite - You and me.

 

 

yea but the 4th ed codex is also getting a white dwarfs buff too!

[stuckinbermuda]

I'm really looking forward to a new Chaos Codex.

 

I haven't played any of my Chaos army since 3rd edition, and I've got a LOT of models to dust off. I hope they get it right since in third edition I used to be able to field an army from every legion except the Iron Warriors, and I'll start with building an army of them when this comes out, always wanted to paint a load of black and yellow stripes. The Black Legion was my very first 40k army and it got so big I could field every unit in the 3rd ed codex so then I had to split it up into smaller 1-2k playable armies. I think I could spend the entirety of 6th edition just revamping my old chaos armies and have a blast doing it. Sure I'll buy a few new models/characters and maybe enough models to field a new 2k army so GW and FW will get a few pennies out of me, plus the cost of the new codex and rulebook for 6th edition but over the course of a year it is only $20 a week which is way cheaper than most other hobbies.

 

Awesome news!

[Lord Ragnarok]

God Damn!The possibility of yet another main rulebook,and all the new codex's to go with it.I am quite happy with the currant Chaos codex and the rules from the main rulebook.Does'nt anyone get sick and tired of filling GW's pockets,when they are just rehashing the same thing over and over again?I agree with Brother Nihm on this one,i am a bitter old man as well.

 

I really don't understand this. They are a business. They need to make money. That is what they will do. You can't expect anything else. They are not a not for profit organization placed here to provide us a Hobby Forum.

 

Although you may be happy with the current dex. Many are not. Many despised the change from 3.5 to this iteration. Many decried the simplton changes in the 4th Chaos dex and Dark Angels dex. Many hated the simplistic book with simplistic fluff/rules and fluff to rules tie in and the loss of "flavor", especially for the Legions. I think someone must have listened and thought "oops, we better do something". Many of the codices post DA/C:CM were much improved.

 

Like most companies, they will try to listen to their customers and evolve their product/brand.

[Cigar_of_Nurgle]

well here is the whole article from bols

 

* first 6th edition codexes, but release before or with rulebook, small release with single or two waves: Black Templars (1 waves: 2x plactic, 2x Finecast), Tau (1 wave: 3x plastic boxes, 4x Finecast), Necrons (2 waves)

 

* first real 6th edition codex: Codex Chaos Legions, really big release in three waves, doesn’t invalidate Codex Chaos Space Marines which gets extensive White Dwarf update as Codex Renegade Space Marines

 

* two starter sets, each with rules, dices, movement markers, mission booklet, one with Dark Angels and fitting scenery, the other with Black Legion and Chaos scenery. You can combine both to play the campaign or use one set alone to play a selection of dumbed down scenarios against every other force, first starter set that comes with a model for a well established special character

 

* 6th edition is finished rulewise for some time now, the overall goal is to fix some of the long time problems of the game system. Expect a lot more fundamental improvements than last edition. The rules were even more ambitious at some stage of development, but didn’t get approved as they were too far away from the established rules. The main designer left company and his successors brought the rules back in line with the existing codexes. The rules are nonetheless a bigger step forward than from 4th to 5th. Changes are so big that the next edition relies partial on erratas to fix old codexes. Development relied heavily on feedback of veteran playtesters. You can see some results of this new approach by the way the FAQs were handled in the last months. All codexes since Codex Tyranids were written with the new rules in mind, especially the new mission and reserve structure.

 

* The main design goals are: one book to rule them all, heroic characters, visceral combat, streamlined mechanism, cleaned up presentation and strategy before chance

 

* strong narrative focus on Chaos, perspective shifting from the Empire to the struggle between free races and the Warp

 

* the biggest rule changes:

- similar ballistic to hit chart as wound chart: compare BS to target’s speed and unit type. BS 3 hits moving infantry on 4+, but lightning fast jetbikes on 6+ and stationary tank on 2+… HUGE

- victory points are back, but with another twist: you get two victory points if an unit holds an objective for an entire game turn, if a scoring unit holds one, you get three and one if you destroy a squad leader or vehicle

- before the game there is a bidding contest for the opportunity of the first turn, if you bid more strategic points you can go first, but the enemy can spent these points on stratagems as in Cities of Death: 22 generic stratagems – for example for one point you can decide on night fighting or place an automatic gun, for four you can shift your reserves, most expensive stratagems are at 12 points and are really drastic, every unspent point can be used once a game for a reroll

- new turn sequence: prepare-movement-assault-shooting-consolidate

new phase “consolidate” phase for random movements, jetpack movements, pursuits, morale checks/effects and resolving shooting reactions

assault before shooting – big units are real roadblocks!<<

 

*

Avatar Image

rideroftheerk · 1 day, 2 hours ago

 

Some more examples for the development doctrines

One rulebook for all:

- flyer rules are incorporated in the main rules

- narrative rule section that expands core rules: formations, super heavies, gaining experience

- modular rules, core rules can easily be expanded by narratives rules or another expansion set

 

Heroic characters:

- independent characters more powerful, armour save and invulnerable save at the same time

- squad leaders more important, no more 50% rallying threshold, unit can rally as long as squad leader lives

- independent characters can snipe

 

More visceral combat:

- standard cover only 5+ now, Feel No Pain (1) only on 5+

- slow slogging units very vulnerable

- some weapon types are specialized in taking out specific unit types and are incredible good at doing this (sniper vs. infantry without armour), but on the other hand ordnance vs flyer isn’t going to do much

 

streamlined:

- no more random movement at all

- 5 general types of psychic powers

- wound allocation like 4th edition on unit basis, but attacker can chose every 5th wound to go to a single model (sniper weapon every second wound)

- artillery is normal immobile vehicle squadron, crew has no other game purpose than to be a counter for rate of fire and attacks

 

clean up of combusted rules:

- there are tiers for most of the special rules. Instant Death (2) circumvents Eternal Warrior (1) for example. Feel No Pain (1) is 5+, Feel No Pain (2) is 4+ and Feel No Pain (3) is 3+. If no value is given, the special rule is tier 1.

- no more difference between leadership test and morale test

- terrain rules on a single page, true line of sight, non-vehicles models are ignored altogether, rules for special terrain like bunkers, ruins or deathworld mangroves in narrative rule section

 

less randomness, more strategic options:

- more elaborate reserve rules, can nominate turn of arrvial and has only small change to arrive earlier or later, or can intervene behind enemy lines, arrives randomly but can hinder enemy reserves, must be distributed evenly between turn two and three, later arrivals only randomly

-no more random game length

-no roll for first turn

-deep striking units more than 18” from enemy away don’t scatter, but landing in 6” is much more dangerous

- movement impairing effects from pinning weapons even if morale check is passed (if roll is above halved Ld), Fearless not immune to this, but only effected if rolled over full Ld

- more reactions to shooting than going to the ground depending on unit type and special rules. bikes can evade (3+ cover as same as before, but cannot assault or shoot next turn), jump troops can fly high, units with Stealth can attempt to vanish, …

 

 

Well horde armies are goin to get alot stronger with the new phases.

[the jeske]

A D-B and Warsmith IV, I couldn't have said it better. It's funny how incomprehensible a feudal system has become in the 21st century.

I normaly dont react to stuff like that , but as I do have a masters in history . What do you know about medieval history ?[and let us take it easy and just take europe] The feudal systam or rather its history is the history of vasals not showing up when called [because the lose vs gain was too great] , going rogue as soon as the suveren was away[and not just by dieing sometimes it was enough that he was called by his suveren and after coming back his home was a pile of ash] . It was like that till the great protestant wars in XVI [but for my Russia it ended with the expulsion of polish forces and the end of the Great Smuta]. The only thing keeping people more or less toughater was faith [important thing for a very long time , not because of what people realy thought , but because if others branded you a unfaithful or worse a heretic , every contract made with you was made null .] , being part of the same people [which of course comes with bucket load of traitors in every countries history . I wont denay that] or the lack of land[resources] .

IMO it is the same for chaos sm . The gods [in the case of cult and WB something kin to faith] are what keeps the csm from killing each other , they like to keep close to their own brothers then other legions and they are driven by the need resources[because every nation or even the smallest tribe is].

If warbands were actualy semi official [dudes shering same "ancestry" sometimes banding for something big , but generaly would work/live like alone like nomad tribes ] , it would create huge problems . First of all for non cult armies, second for the cult dudes .

 

by the way the armagedon 1 example. A no one ever explain how there were even 50k WE when they were the legion that took the biggest loses through the whole heresy . B the problem with cult dudes doing or not doing stuff is that if their god commends it , they cant say no .Because if they did the luckies thing that would happen to them is spawndom . there are more examples like this from the 13th crusade time . Ahriman and magnus being forced to work togahter because tzeench others it so .

 

the second problem would be how would they fix the whole warp thing . In feudal system people were obeying their lords mostly because if they didnt he would come and kill them/burn them down/ find new dudes for same place. In the eye there is no place or rather the place is endless . If a lord decided to hide and not join , it would be easily to do so . I mean If even the chaos gods cant pinpoint a location of something in the warp how could an ad hoc cmd of a lets say NL force ?

It would also create fluff problems . because if warbands [working like nomand tribes that joined 2 times a year for something big ] were free , then where does the whole iron hand of Abadon goes ? If his gods cant pinpoint a lord and there is no fear of lack of resources in the warp , how did he force the legions obey ? Also if Abs would have problems like that , how would it work for lesser "overlords" ?[and as only 4 legions are cult and we have only 1 WB legion we cant explain it with , If they dont obey gods punish them].

 

The last thing is resources[yes I did mention it before] . If warbands were free and there was no structure [which is impossible as every socity does have it] , they would still need somesort of a gathering point [nomands had them . horse markets or a single "city" where people traded most offten at a holy site] or a base . the fluff does seem to point us to demon worlds that each of the legions have as their own . So if those places exist , then how is a state of pernament war controled on those ? If there was no rules like "you guys at the bottom of the food chain can do what you want , but try to blow up the main fuel depot durning your fights and you will see what hell is" , the legions wouldnt need outside sources or demons to wipe themselfs out . they would have done it durning a few bloody civil wars .

 

I understand the concept of warbands is there so people can personalise stuff and that is also a markting thing [sucks for sales if the fluff says"NO PMs in the NL legion"] . But a big[there is tons of csm and bilions of their servs/cultists working under them] 10k years old socity just wouldnt work . It works for small groups or for a short time [mongols , even tatars when they got realy big stoped being nomads ].

[Excessus]

50k WE at Armageddon? Well, I suspect that they must have done some recruiting then...it's not like they just intend to let their numbers dwindle away into nothingness...

 

Besides, even in the fluff it's said that the WE have psycho-surgeons(they have the best, after all) to condition new recruits...

[Lord Ragnarok]

A no one ever explain how there were even 50k WE

Where did you read this number? Source?

[Paradigm]

@the jeske I meant no offense personal or otherwise, and if I have offended you in some way I apologize. I simply meant in general feudal systems are simply a hard concept for everyone to understand. We all live in countries were the fuedal system has been gone for hundreds of years or never existed. Most of us do not have a masters in history in order to fully comprehend the nature of the feudal system. As for how this relates to the warband concept in c:csm, I am speaking of an ideal feudal system. One in which kings(primarchs) call their vassals(chaos lords) to war. The chaos lords may or may not answer, and may or may not call upon lesser lords. These lords may or may not answer, and so it goes.

 

Based on what you are saying, we agree in how it applies, unless I somehow misunderstand you. However we differ in how we recognize the nature and description of a warband. To me a warband is a group of marines fighting for a common cause(for now). Weather they are decended from the same legion or not. Weather they recognize any higher lord as sovereign or not they are a warband. They might be an iron warriors warband who call themselves the steel legion. But they are still iron warriors. They might be knights of blood decended from the blood angels, who do not even fight for chaos per say, but they are still a blood angels renegade warband. The skull takers were once a noble chapter, they are now a chaos warband. The world eaters have shown they will answer angron's call, but they are still a large group of warbands. The word bearers break off into individual hosts with their own traditions etc. These hosts are warbands. But they are all still word bearers. The dragon warriors are made up of salamanders, black dragons, marines malevolent, and iron warriors who chose to leave their old warband(or chapter) to form one anew. This is also a warband.

 

My goal was not to make any kind of personal gripe toward anyone, but to simply relate what concept i was trying to put forth. That feudal systems are not an all or none form, and that warbands do no invalidate legions but do make them obsolete.