Codex: Chaos Legions

[Gree]

A no one ever explain how there were even 50k WE

Where did you read this number? Source?

 

4th edition chaos Codex, the Dominion of Fire. Angron led 50,000 Berserkers in the middle of the 38th millenium.

[Brother Ambroz]

I really hope that if they do this they bring back some of the old daemonic gifts for the Lords and Princes to make them more customizable. We also really need those old cult terminators, I miss the days of 2 wound terminators, even if they weren't that great for the point cost.

[Zeller]

Regardless of what comes of this book I'm very excited at the prospect of leading an army of Word Bearers with a Dark Apostle at its head. I hope they do not build a generic lineup for marines and then have a legion page that adds a rule or something as boring as that. Worst yet would be a special character unlocking the army. Lord I pray that doesn't happen. I want to be able to open my book to the WB section and revel in the plethora of Word Bearery goodness melting my face in awesome from the pages.

[Corpse.]

That batch from bols gave me a dizzy spell after reading cigars' quote.

 

Poking at some of the marketing angles... I presume their low age group level has risen a bit due to them gaining a few years and regretting (and stop buying) models. So their youth cash-boost has been running a little low. Presuming what bols is true, (at least most of it..?) the game is about to get complicated in ways that youngsters will have a hard time following. And otherwise more things to forget since it is not a simple green-yellow-red, rather it's now green-blue-yellow-purple-red continuation of 10-50 units (depending if IG, or chaos with lots of 5-size daemon units, etc) to remember each and every phase even if it's to remember they do nothing. You still have to remember them five times over which can make a person forgetful. And regrettably, the one of the reasons fantasy players call 40k easy is because of the lack of phases. (they take their turns with more care because it can be easy to forget something in an additional phase)

 

A release of the chaos legions in the mid-aggravation area to revenue gain. Because often if the aggravation level exceeds 50%, a person may not buy into the new business plan set out for them. (For example old obliterators were 25mm bases, now 40mm bases, it was a forced market)

 

I see the continuing trend of special character-changes-army role, because last time chaos was a big trend changer it killed a lot of revenue. (AV 13 dreadnoughts with mutated hull for example, now loyalists have siege dreads and they gain cash because chaos doesn't have it, a toy for loyalists)

 

So considering spite now, or rather jealousy marketing. With many, if not nearly every aspect of the original 3.5 codex taken and used among all the new space marine codicies I assume we'll have bit of a watered down version of what we used to have. Thankfully for their marketing angles, we won't wish we had the 4.0 codex though. They learned the hard way realising Ebay and spikey bits from toothpicks can thwart their nerf bat market angles. (I.E. The Ward success examples)

 

What they tried to do in 4.0 was remove the the limiters, for example no khorne stuff as troops if lead by a non khorne leader in 3.5. They thought that would get more money, well it didn't. Limitations are now in a positive effect, where they discovered army changing special characters give the role. Rather than giving a mark and restricting something or otherwise picking a force that limits well over 1/4th of the codex to you (No marks, etc).

 

This narrows it down to some things you may have guessed, special characters. Gear, etc with nothing limited by doing so. This means our specialist troops with marks are going to be elites again. Thankfully this seems to be a main route to return to, something I can count on or otherwise be happy I already own a kharne model that cost me 8 dollars when he was 8 dollars.

 

Other thoughts after poking at it some more while typing this out, I presume another price rise a little while after the chaos release. Because people who get stuck with a starter force will pay more once they're stuck with it. Ebay might get a rise of some of the quitters but if it's in waves of releases, this leaves no options for those wanting the new things. So in turn, as always if you can convert then right now is the time to start honing those spiky bits gluing skills. I prefer using a cloth to lay the model down where the spike I'm gluing is going to stand upright when I lay it onto the model.

 

I think nurgle though will get a major debuff, points raise and otherwise a new model range that will make the current pewter/plastic range seem off size or otherwise awkward if placed side by side. Being popular in the current codex, they most certainly would be the target for a marketing angle. Sorry.

[Ju'kosian]

I think an excellent example of a supposedly "shattered" command structure is the World Eaters. Yes, since Skallathrax they have more or less given up on operating on a large, organised scale. In other words, they are warbands who don't in general take orders from others unless it suits them.

 

Enter Angron in M38, decides to get some slaughtering of the Imperium done. It's been a while after all. And what happens? 50,000 berserkers of the World Eaters answer the Primarch's call. Because even independent warbands will come together when someone who ranks really high in the legion tells them to.

 

some of the legions also unite with a common purpose, a large portion of the Night lord assembled in 'lord of the night" in search of the crown of Curze I think.

And If I'm not mistaken the night lords also united somewhat to assault a Callidus temple in the Audiobook by ADB

 

Ontopic : this rumour is quite interesting , a new rulebook and a new codex.. this can get good..

Finally a legions book, and hopefully the legions get how they should be instead of the renegades like they are now..

I like ADB approach in his novel too that the First legions look down on the renegades (and they have right to do so) so I hope they get a codex that will honour them too..

[totgeboren]

I normaly dont react to stuff like that , but as I do have a masters in history...

... The only thing keeping people more or less toughater was faith [important thing for a very long time , not because of what people realy thought , but because if others branded you a unfaithful or worse a heretic , every contract made with you was made null .] , being part of the same people [which of course comes with bucket load of traitors in every countries history . I wont denay that] or the lack of land[resources] .

IMO it is the same for chaos sm . The gods [in the case of cult and WB something kin to faith] are what keeps the csm from killing each other , they like to keep close to their own brothers then other legions and they are driven by the need resources[because every nation or even the smallest tribe is].

 

This is what the difference between 'Legions' and 'Warbands' boils down to for me. Ok, most CSM groups will probably operate in warband-like groups, but if they belong to a larger organization, a Legion, it would have implications to their composition. To illustrate with my favourite Legion yet again, the Word Bearers. What would be the larger implications for a Dark Apostle if he had some Plague Marines and Noise Marines in his employment? How would his theocratical superiors react to this most balant disregard for the teachings of Lorgar? It would lead to him being branded a heretic, and as the jeske said, "every contract made with you was made null."

Now suddenly he would most likely face mutiny, and his forces would have a hard time resupplying, with all their normal venues closed. Having a huge organisation backing you up comes at a cost.

 

I just guess that "warband" for me means a collection of marines that have cast of their previous loyalties, be they to one of the Legions or one of the Chapters, with all the dogma, drawbacks but also support those would bring.

A "Legion" would be more like a Chapter, in that they adhere to certain dogmas and also maintain a substantial support structure.

 

In a similar manner, warbands dedicated wholly a specific God would need to deal with certain challenges, but might also have an easier time in certain way thanks to the favour of their God. I mean, a joint warband of Slaanesh worshippers and Khorne worshippers would need to be composed of quite a bit different types of people than a pure khornate warband or a pure slaanesh warband.

 

How to translate this into a codex is a different issue. I mean, as it is now, I have a "veteran assault squad", which is just my name for a squad of Khorne Berzerkers for my WB. I know a Word Bearer with the Mark of Khorne is against the background, but I just use the rules to represent something else. However, if we are to play with a CSM codex which forces us to use count-as to represent CSM, it should be designed with that in mind, and the Khorne Berzerkers should be named something like "Veteran Chaos Marine Assault Squad", and have some fluff line that says "Amongst the most infamous are the World Eater Khorne Berzerkers".

As I see it, what people generally are referring to when speaking of warbands vs legions, is that a warband is list where you can pick anything. It's generic, you can mix and match whatever you want. When people are talking of Legions, they expect lists which forces you to obey some background-based dogmas when picking your army, but on the other hand, you get access to certain tools not available to more generic warbands.

 

I don't really see how a Legion-themed warband would not be at an instant disadvantage compared to a more generic one with a warband-themed Codex?

[the jeske]

What they tried to do in 4.0 was remove the the limiters, for example no khorne stuff as troops if lead by a non khorne leader in 3.5.

there were no such limiters in the 3.5 . If someone wanted a non khorn leader[which of course rises the question why would someone not want a glaive demon prince , but that is a different story] , but still take khorn units he took a BL list + the rooster worked different back then even crapy options like termis or possessed or non demon bomb bikers could be made semi viable because in 4th everything was scoring. IF they did anything with the 4th ed dex then it is to add limiters . Troops rules the game , elite and FA with bad rules do not exist . It even went further when in the 4th ed it was possible to make odd size squads for certain roles[lets say a dude wanted 6 NM with 2 plasmas in a rhino] , the 4th ed dex destroyed that not only it fixed the size of the squads[lucky for khorn and nurgle as their cults work best at holy number size ,sucks for others] , but it also ment that units with less optimal set up [csm with mark of nurgle , NM, 1ksons] just made no sense , if someone wanted a working army.

[A D-B]

I just guess that "warband" for me means a collection of marines that have cast of their previous loyalties, be they to one of the Legions or one of the Chapters, with all the dogma, drawbacks but also support those would bring.

 

That's the crucial point, because as presented, that's not what warbands are. It's what a lot of people take them to be, but not what they actually are.

 

A group of Chaos Marines is a warband, much in the same way that a group of birds is a flock, and a group of wolves is a pack. The word warband just means "Some Chaos Marines united for whatever reason", and doesn't reference anything to do with their supplies or allegiance. That's all down to players to choose. A Word Bearer army is still a warband. It's even in their IA article: "The various warbands of the Word Bearers, known as Hosts..."

 

A Chapter is made of companies. A Legion is made of warbands. The differences are in size, supplies, and a million other things, but that's what warbands are: individual armies led by Chaos warlords, rather than individual companies led by captains (and so on). Many of them, still part of their Legion, might call themselves something specific (like Word Bearer Hosts). The difference is, warbands are also things with no ties to Legions, and can be almost anything, in regards to a collective union of Chaos Marines. It's a word that implies possibility, rather than limitation. A warband can be those things you mentioned (and everything else besides), and indeed many are, but assuming they're just that is where the misunderstanding comes from.

 

And this isn't really something that can be argued with any credence, or for any benefit. Some people have just genuinely been getting this wrong, placing assumptions on the term that don't exist. It's all simpler than that, thankfully.

[Cigar_of_Nurgle]

EEEEEH in the end the only thing that I think about is what new units are going to be incorporated in the codex. I would love new mark based defilers, dreadclaws, and chaos needs a type of sniper unit. I would be very shocked if GW put some other legion/bands in the book too. This would add alot of new spice. I would enjoy viewing new bands specific rules like violators, steel brethren, The purge ( IF they killed so many beings then why not make them a main legion), and Dragon Warriors.

 

I know this would drop GW's jaw but add a new god/demigod Or elaborate and add rules to the sons of malice. I personally love their fluff. Their is also the Cron-world eldar. (i doubt anyone knows who these guys are)

 

I feel that The WD rebuff of the current codex will mostly focus on red corsairs. Don't ask me why; i think this its just a gut feeling.

[the jeske]

The difference is, warbands are also things with no ties to Legions, and can be almost anything, in regards to a collective union of Chaos Marines.

how would those hope to survive without the protection of a huge organization a legion is ? For demons they are free food ,for other csm they are free ammo/armor/ships/slaves . A legion can survive in the eye because it has bilions of slaves to sacrfice each "day"[probably more like a constant 24/7 thing] to keep the demons away and has the might to drive away intruders . We had examples of what happens to 300 fully armed space marines or even whole renegade chapters that though they could stand on their own . violators in the demon world book had a fortress , 300 man with full gear , the support of a slanny cult army and they were wiped out . the thunder barons when they went crazy and started attacking everything were wiped out by the Word Bearers.

Anything smaller then a few companies[as in loyalist size] would have a realy hard time surviving . The wars in the eye have a huge attrition ratio , how would a small warband get new recruits . they could work [or rather their leader could force them to] work as mercaneries for a bigger group , but then where is the independent part ? if they dont do what they are told , no recruits no protection , the warband dies out[or becomes the pray of legions or bigger groups] .

 

Battletech had independed mercenary companies and most of those that werent part of a long time contract , were always on the brink of destruction a single bad battle and it is over [even if they survive the depts they would have to pay for the repairs would be the end of their "freedom"].

[caboosebe]

The difference is, warbands are also things with no ties to Legions, and can be almost anything, in regards to a collective union of Chaos Marines.

how would those hope to survive without the protection of a huge organization a legion is ? For Daemons they are free food ,for other csm they are free ammo/armor/ships/slaves . A legion can survive in the eye because it has bilions of slaves to sacrfice each "day"[probably more like a constant 24/7 thing] to keep the demons away and has the might to drive away intruders . We had examples of what happens to 300 fully armed space marines or even whole renegade chapters that though they could stand on their own . violators in the demon world book had a fortress , 300 man with full gear , the support of a slanny cult army and they were wiped out . the thunder barons when they went crazy and started attacking everything were wiped out by the Word Bearers.

Anything smaller then a few companies[as in loyalist size] would have a realy hard time surviving . The wars in the eye have a huge attrition ratio , how would a small warband get new recruits . they could work [or rather their leader could force them to] work as mercaneries for a bigger group , but then where is the independent part ? if they dont do what they are told , no recruits no protection , the warband dies out[or becomes the pray of legions or bigger groups] .

 

Battletech had independed mercenary companies and most of those that werent part of a long time contract , were always on the brink of destruction a single bad battle and it is over [even if they survive the depts they would have to pay for the repairs would be the end of their "freedom"].

Just my small opinion on the fact. The 1Oth company of Night Lords are not bigger then 300 astartes, if they even still get to 100 at this point. They operate alone. Yes they are called Night Lords of the Night Lord Legion, but it is a warband that doesn't have any planet with a base of operations, or the benefits of support of their fellow legionnaires.

Yes they do come together to find something of importance or fight a big fight, but they don't exchange resources and such on monthly base. They have to fend for themselves.

Some Chaos Space Marine warbands might not live all the time in the warp, and just be in material space all the time, attacking the Imperium. If I recall, the Alpha Legion didn't go the Eye.

Now about those Daemons and such in the warp, remember that the Chaos Gods do everything on a whim. They might attack the Black Legion in full force if they wanted too, even if that Legion sacrifised every slave they had, if the Chaos Gods want them dead, they'll kill them.

 

Sure, a small warband has MORE chance of getting destroyed by the Imperium or an other warband, but that doesn't mean it will. This is 40K Chaos we're talking about. The galaxy is vast, and everything can change, there are no fixed rules and everything is possible.

Though I found Jeske's text about warbands in Europe fascinating (I really did!), this is 40k we're talking about. Warband is a word, nothing more. There are no numbers fixed on it. If a chapter went renegade, and they would only live for 5 minutes, it would still be called a warband.

It could just as easily have been called a boysband. But they took the name 'warband'.

 

Just my opinion.

 

 

edit: the typo's I could find.

[facmanpob]

Though I found Jeske's text about warbands in Europe fasinating (I really did!), this is 40k we're talking about. Warband is a word, nothing more. There are no numbers fixed on it. If a chapter went renegade, and they would only live for 5 minutes, it would still be called a warband.

It could just as easily have been called a boyband. But they took the name 'warband'.

 

Just my opinion.

Personally, I think you've hit the nail on the head. The problem is that when the word "warband" is used, people make a semantic connection to, say, medieval European warbands, and try to fit an abstract 40k concept into established human history. Why? Because we are trained from an early age to associate words with meanings...e.g. fork, spoon, tank, army...warband. If they'd called them "Chaos wangle-doodles" nobody would have a clue what was meant by that and would simply look at the rules and fluff and interpret them with no semantic baggage....but they didn't do that, they called them "warbands" and we have to live with it. ;)

[Zincite]

Angron led 50,000 Berserkers in the middle of the 38th millenium.

Bezerkers though. Not all of them would be original World Eaters?

[A D-B]

The difference is, warbands are also things with no ties to Legions, and can be almost anything, in regards to a collective union of Chaos Marines.

how would those hope to survive without the protection of a huge organization a legion is ? For demons they are free food ,for other csm they are free ammo/armor/ships/slaves . A legion can survive in the eye because it has bilions of slaves to sacrfice each "day"[probably more like a constant 24/7 thing] to keep the demons away and has the might to drive away intruders . We had examples of what happens to 300 fully armed space marines or even whole renegade chapters that though they could stand on their own . violators in the demon world book had a fortress , 300 man with full gear , the support of a slanny cult army and they were wiped out . the thunder barons when they went crazy and started attacking everything were wiped out by the Word Bearers.

Anything smaller then a few companies[as in loyalist size] would have a realy hard time surviving . The wars in the eye have a huge attrition ratio , how would a small warband get new recruits . they could work [or rather their leader could force them to] work as mercaneries for a bigger group , but then where is the independent part ? if they dont do what they are told , no recruits no protection , the warband dies out[or becomes the pray of legions or bigger groups] .

 

Battletech had independed mercenary companies and most of those that werent part of a long time contract , were always on the brink of destruction a single bad battle and it is over [even if they survive the depts they would have to pay for the repairs would be the end of their "freedom"].

 

That's a bunch of very real issues for a lot of warbands, I'm sure. Remember, they spend their entire lives fighting each other, on daemon worlds, in a hell-realm where time is mutable. Applying simple logic is pointless. Warbands will rise, fall, change, be merged into larger forces, and break away to look for their own fortunes all the time, even the ones that are still Word Bearers, or whatever other allegiance they've got. They're the soldiers of Hell. Stability and comfortable living is just not even on their radar. Some make it. Some don't. In the Eye, where time and natural laws don't really exist in any definable way, it's difficult to apply logistics like that.

 

But all of this is largely irrelevant to the topic, in a way, because it changes nothing. Those are just problems the Chaos Marines suffer in their hell-realm (and they're a massive part of why the Eye is so awesome and interesting, rather than logical flaws), but it doesn't change what Chaos Marines are. Warband is just a word, as others have explained, too. The Legions haven't dissolved just because they're divided into warbands, no more than a Chapter dissolves because they're divided into Companies. The differences are many, largely in terms of scale, ideologies, and where they live compared to other Marines, but the core concept is similar. It's detailed in the background, especially the IA articles.

[Cigar_of_Nurgle]

The difference is, warbands are also things with no ties to Legions, and can be almost anything, in regards to a collective union of Chaos Marines.

how would those hope to survive without the protection of a huge organization a legion is ? For demons they are free food ,for other csm they are free ammo/armor/ships/slaves . A legion can survive in the eye because it has bilions of slaves to sacrfice each "day"[probably more like a constant 24/7 thing] to keep the demons away and has the might to drive away intruders . We had examples of what happens to 300 fully armed space marines or even whole renegade chapters that though they could stand on their own . violators in the demon world book had a fortress , 300 man with full gear , the support of a slanny cult army and they were wiped out . the thunder barons when they went crazy and started attacking everything were wiped out by the Word Bearers.

Anything smaller then a few companies[as in loyalist size] would have a realy hard time surviving . The wars in the eye have a huge attrition ratio , how would a small warband get new recruits . they could work [or rather their leader could force them to] work as mercaneries for a bigger group , but then where is the independent part ? if they dont do what they are told , no recruits no protection , the warband dies out[or becomes the pray of legions or bigger groups] .

 

Battletech had independed mercenary companies and most of those that werent part of a long time contract , were always on the brink of destruction a single bad battle and it is over [even if they survive the depts they would have to pay for the repairs would be the end of their "freedom"].

 

 

@jeske

what about the iron warriors? they don't praise any gods and most likely don't preform sacrifices but yet somehow they still survive in the warp? also jeske sometimes their is this thing called luck and a warband does get really big and powerful. Another chapter that doesn't have rules but apparently is very powerful is the purge ,but i guess jeske and his history major had them wiped out because they weren't considered a legion. its cool brochacho whatever.

[Skirax]

Not holding my breath for this.

 

Also,

For all we know, if it - or something like it - finally happens then Plague Marines will get a 'sneeze attack' that stops the victim from telling the truth! and we will have Lava-Ice-crystal-marines everywhere and Night Lords will get the ability to "super-charge/overload" *.

 

 

 

*references to the newer retcons designed to dazzle 14-year olds but really makes no sense.

 

Yes I'm a bitter old man. :P

Hey, I'm fifteen and I'm with you on this point :)

[Prot]

I was half believing the 6th ed rumours until I read the first full release of 6th is going to be Chaos.

 

What cruel joke is this!?!?! GW live and die by the sales of Ultra-somethings. Chaos? Chaos was an accident committed by a poor bugger that got canned after Chaos got 'good'. (I believe his severance package was a garage full of rhino's after the 'experimental assault rules' were implemented.)

 

Chaos has been treated like a red headed step child for years. I see no change to that. Call me jaded, but you have your dreadnought wipe out your own Khorne Berzerkers enough and it's hard to think straight.

 

The ONLY validity I could give this rumour with the current business machine GW have become is if they made Chaos Spawns 'uber'. Because I have a strong feeling GW has a LOT of Spawns in the ol' warehouse- right on the shelf next to DOOOOOOoomrider.

[Legatus]

A Chapter is made of companies. A Legion is made of warbands. The differences are in size, supplies, and a million other things, but that's what warbands are: individual armies led by Chaos warlords, rather than individual companies led by captains (and so on). Many of them, still part of their Legion, might call themselves something specific (like Word Bearer Hosts). The difference is, warbands are also things with no ties to Legions, and can be almost anything, in regards to a collective union of Chaos Marines. It's a word that implies possibility, rather than limitation. A warband can be those things you mentioned (and everything else besides), and indeed many are, but assuming they're just that is where the misunderstanding comes from.

Well, technically the term "warband" does not have to describe a Legion-less force, however, that is how it is generally applied in the 40K lore. And indeed, according to older and newer background, all Legions have pretty much been dissolved. What we see in black crusades and major Chaos incursions are merely cases of several warbands joining forces, rather than the Legion commander consolidating the usually individualy operating forces. Much like how in Imperial Crusades the forces several Chapters will be combined. There is still a big draw when a daemon primarch or an influential warmaster such as Abaddon calls to arms, and in such instances a lot of warbands will follow. But all those warbands that answer the call are not otherwise considered to be part of a greater whole.

 

 

"Millennia of jealousies and infighting have broken down the Legions into companies and warbands of varying size, each led by their own Captain or Champion of Chaos who pursues his own destiny."

(2nd Edition Codex Chaos, p. 19)

 

"Little remains of the organised Legions that waged war upon ancient Terra. Millennia of jealousies and infighting have broken down the Legions into companies and warbands of varying size. Each led by a Captain or Champion of Chaos who pursues his own destiny."

(4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 17)

[Cigar_of_Nurgle]

A Chapter is made of companies. A Legion is made of warbands. The differences are in size, supplies, and a million other things, but that's what warbands are: individual armies led by Chaos warlords, rather than individual companies led by captains (and so on). Many of them, still part of their Legion, might call themselves something specific (like Word Bearer Hosts). The difference is, warbands are also things with no ties to Legions, and can be almost anything, in regards to a collective union of Chaos Marines. It's a word that implies possibility, rather than limitation. A warband can be those things you mentioned (and everything else besides), and indeed many are, but assuming they're just that is where the misunderstanding comes from.

Well, technically the term "warband" does not have to describe a Legion-less force, however, that is how it is generally applied in the 40K lore. And indeed, according to older and newer background, all Legions have pretty much been dissolved. What we see in black crusades and major Chaos incursions are merely cases of several warbands joining forces, rather than the Legion commander consolidating the usually individualy operating forces. Much like how in Imperial Crusades the forces several Chapters will be combined. There is still a big draw when a daemon primarch or an influential warmaster such as Abaddon calls to arms, and in such instances a lot of warbands will follow. But all those warbands that answer the call are not otherwise considered to be part of a greater whole.

 

 

"Millennia of jealousies and infighting have broken down the Legions into companies and warbands of varying size, each led by their own Captain or Champion of Chaos who pursues his own destiny."

(2nd Edition Codex Chaos, p. 19)

 

"Little remains of the organised Legions that waged war upon ancient Terra. Millennia of jealousies and infighting have broken down the Legions into companies and warbands of varying size. Each led by a Captain or Champion of Chaos who pursues his own destiny."

(4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 17)

 

 

validand good point

[caboosebe]

What makes a Legion a Legion.

Numbers of soldiers?

Equipment?

Chain of command?

Believes?

Unity?

Imperial records saying you are a legion (or no longer)?

All of this together?

 

Fact is, there is no clear definition what makes a Legion a Legion.

I'm not saying that Legions still exists. But the Legions as we know them from pre-heresy are gone.

 

Look at the Word Bearers, and I'm taking this from the Dark Apostle series.

There are a great number of hosts (=big warband) all with their Champion at the top.

These hosts still have an upper commander (Master of Faith + Erebus) and will answer their calls for big opperations.

Yet they all try to kill some other champion of some other host so they can 'absorb' the killed champion's host, and this even when doing missions together. (the infighting/jealousies)

And they do their own agenda when not doing something for Erebus. (own destiny)

Are they still a Legion? Depends on what you think is needed to be a Legion.

Are they warbands? In my opinion, yes, as a warband for me is just the term used to discribe a group of Chaos Space Marines no matter the size or origin.

 

All I'm saying is that the whole thing depends on your point of view what a Legion is.

Some people say that when you use the old name (like world eaters or thousands sons) you are still a Legion

Some people think the size is what matters most, and because there are multiple divided warbands there will never be a Legion again.

 

Just my humble opinion.

[Kristoff]

I'm not saying that Legions still exists. But the Legions as we know them from pre-heresy are gone.

 

Um... Duh. The Loyalists were either broken down into multiple chapters or so mauled by enemy Legions that they they didn't dare be broken up. The Heretic Legions had joined Chaos so were infected by their willing exposure to the Warp and its denizens that there is no chance they would be the same. It's one of the reasons why it is considered such a significant event.

 

The only Legions that resemble their pre-Heresy image and organization are the Night Lords and Space Wolves, with Alpha Legion being a possible third (not even they know, really). Night Lords have been nuts since they joined with their Primarch. Space Wolves are so infected by their own world and so fierce that no one really wants to try take them out if they don't have to, so they weren't forced to change like the rest of the chapters. Alpha Legion is Alpha Legion, and no one really knows even IF they changed, since they were so unknowable even before the Heresy.

[Paradigm]

For night lords I'd say they were the same until curze died. Then they fractured. Not because they didnt try to continue down the path they were on, but because their path was so fractured and obscure. Every night lord seems to have their own idea of what their primarch was. It's the real tragedy of them.

 

The space wolves tried to conform, and the good ole tsons knocked that plan out at the battle of the fang.

 

The legions are dead. None of them exist anymore. The primarchs are dead, missing, or playing the great game, their legion's constituent parts have become de facto indie gigs though they de jure may be loyal to something higher. These indie gigs in the 40k universe are called either chapters, or warbands, loyalties withstanding. Some warbands have thrown off their old colors, whether they are OG legionary vets, or thin-blooded throne slaves who got horned up and came to party with the grown ups. Whichever color your chaos marines are, when asked what army you are playing, the response is "I'm playing a 'name here' warband". This is my opinion.

 

However in the end your army is whatever you want it to be. It's your hobby and your models can be whatever you choose. It's the beauty of our hobby.

[Prot]

In this latest rumour there's something else I take from it that kind of crushes my heart to coal....

 

It would seem of the Chaos rumours are true, then legions/warbands/chapters like Red Corsairs lost in the relegation round and will be sidelined to White Dwarf status.

 

This truly guts me. I had been quietly plugging along with my Red Corsairs, and I have ALWAYS had this fear in the back of my mind all along. For once the voices in my head were right!

 

I know Huron get's poo-poo'd on a lot here, but I really like the guy. (For reasons I won't bore you with) But all along as I was painting some of these guys, doing some new model work, I really started to think.... that this current codex is so hated, that they might dismantle the whole Red Corsair thing.

 

This really feels like a kick in the warp hole.

 

Don't get me wrong I have TONS of Iron Warriors dating back to the 90's (unfortunately some of them look the part). I have many points of World Eaters, etc, but it was the Red Corsairs I was hoping would be my future project.

 

If this rumour is true, I feel stupid for continuing with Red Corsairs. There is no way a White Dwarf treatment will measure up to full out, Legion codex in all its glory. And the 'counts as' thing has never worked for me. When I see 5 different ultra-something armies playing 'counts as blood angels' it makes me throw up a bit in my mouth.

 

In case you can't tell, it's just sinking in with me that I will be abandoning my Red Corsair project. Ugh. <_<

[Black Hand]

Angron led 50,000 Berserkers in the middle of the 38th millenium.

Bezerkers though. Not all of them would be original World Eaters?

That indeed would be rather unlikely, as even the legions were not so huge. Well, some of them were very big, but I don't think even the biggest numbered more than, say, 30,000 marines at any one time. Chances are these were World Eaters warbands mixed in with renegade berserkers and other followers of Khorne.

[Hellios]

Angron led 50,000 Berserkers in the middle of the 38th millenium.

Bezerkers though. Not all of them would be original World Eaters?

That indeed would be rather unlikely, as even the legions were not so huge. Well, some of them were very big, but I don't think even the biggest numbered more than, say, 30,000 marines at any one time. Chances are these were World Eaters warbands mixed in with renegade berserkers and other followers of Khorne.

 

Well if you take the new fluff where they seem to be using 100,000 rather than 10,000 then 50,000 isn't nuts although the world eaters did take lots of damage the the HH and against the EC children afterwards... although the loss of 50% of your numbers isn't great... If you take the 10,000 strong legion number... then certainly some of them are not World Eaters.

 

However the current background seems to suggest that the Ultramarines were the largest at around 200,000 marines and the average legion was around 100,000 and the smallest legion was the Thousand Sons and while I'm not sure if anywhere states how large a Brotherhood is, if we assume it is around 1,000 marines then the 1ksons would be at 10,000 tops :blush: