Sanguinius as Warmaster

[Morollan]

Horus was the best and brightest of them all, that is why he became warmaser. He essentially did have all four of the gods on his shoulders because if he fell, they would have their champions to fight for them the next millenia essentially. They're right really, Sanguinus had a daemon offer him something, Horus had the four whispering to him through Erebus and the others.

 

Firstly, what is this daemon that offered Sanguinius something? If you're referring to Horus, well he wasn't a daemon.

 

Secondly, as Legatus just posted, all the primarchs were tested. Some failed. So Sanguinius had his own tests (I'd say having his spine broken by a Bloodthirster and watching deamons slaughter his children compares pretty well with the scratch Horus got on the moon of Davin) but he stayed loyal. Horus didn't.

 

Finally, even Horus himself believed Sanguinius to be the 'best and brightest'.

 

“Sanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor’s soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his…”

[The_son_of_Dorn]

'and low he would become known as Sanguinius the black, the dammed angel of chaos, the mutant and constant reminder of any deviation from the pure human form is sin, even if it seemed angelic'

 

Sanguinius would of been a cool evil Warmaster, like the emperors mental equivilent, I could really see him playing the evil card quite well. Playing of the people declaring he was the true saviour of man (as he was an angel) saying that no 'man' can save the human race, then after the polotics is finished bam! red thirst and black rage all over his enemies! he would become the ultramarines of chaos.

[Ubermensch Commander]

The winged one, already touched by the warp in a startlingly visible way, would have succumbed.

 

Sanguinius flaws emerged when he was laid low by Horus, awakening a curse that seems to have existed within the gene-seed of Sanguinius from the beginning. All gene-seed stock contained the potential for some mutation within them, which were exacerbated by the accelerated recruitment and personnel demands of the Legions during the Crusade, with some more pronounced than others. Sanguinius vampirism and rage emerged with the traumatic events with the Bloodthirster before the siege and then fully when Horus slew him.

 

The flaw seemed to be there beforehand, rather than a curse placed upon them by Chaos or some such. As such, a scenario where Sanguinius fell to the magical plot device blade, rather than Horus, could have opened up the door to that flaw and then allowed for a slower decline as the pressures of his position and controlling his darker urges slowly drove the Angel mad, opening the door and providing a level for Chaos' influence.

[Morollan]

You assume that physical flaws are sufficient to cause someone to fall to Chaos. Horus semingly had no such flaws and he fell so I fail to see the link. Surely it is the personality that is the key factor here?

[Brother Ambroz]

Horus was the best and brightest of them all, that is why he became warmaser. He essentially did have all four of the gods on his shoulders because if he fell, they would have their champions to fight for them the next millenia essentially. They're right really, Sanguinus had a daemon offer him something, Horus had the four whispering to him through Erebus and the others.

 

Firstly, what is this daemon that offered Sanguinius something? If you're referring to Horus, well he wasn't a daemon.

 

Secondly, as Legatus just posted, all the primarchs were tested. Some failed. So Sanguinius had his own tests (I'd say having his spine broken by a Bloodthirster and watching deamons slaughter his children compares pretty well with the scratch Horus got on the moon of Davin) but he stayed loyal. Horus didn't.

 

Finally, even Horus himself believed Sanguinius to be the 'best and brightest'.

 

“Sanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor’s soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his…”

 

 

 

The same bloodthirster that broke his spine, Ka'bandah. Yes all the primarchs were tested but to different degrees. Part of what made Horus so great was how humble he was, he didn't believe himself to be the best. But really if you're calling it a "scratch" there's no point in arguing with you, its obvious you're not going to concede or believe anything other than that. :)

[Morollan]

The same bloodthirster that broke his spine, Ka'bandah. Yes all the primarchs were tested but to different degrees. Part of what made Horus so great was how humble he was, he didn't believe himself to be the best. But really if you're calling it a "scratch" there's no point in arguing with you, its obvious you're not going to concede or believe anything other than that. :)

 

Go and read the books again. It was a wound that should have been inconsequential to a primarch. It was the weapon that made it so dangerous. And again, is that really any more serious than basically having your entire lower half smashed to a pulp and watching a daemon lord slaughter ~500 of your children? They were both tested and one passed, the other failed.

 

'Horus the Humble' was a character that was flawed and that is how the Ruinous Powers got to him, via Erebus. Sanguinius, whilsty undoubtedly physically tainted by chaos, did not possess those same character flaws and there is no evidence to suggest that he would have fallen to Chaos with the same ease that Horus did or that he would have fallen at all.

 

Not everyone that is tempted succumbs.

[MagicMan]

Horus was the noblest hero of the great crusade, if he fell into darkness, im pretty sure any of the other primarchs would have fallen in his place.

 

Many would say that Sanguinius was the noblest.

 

Including Horus.

 

 

 

And Sanguinius would probably say Horus was the noblest.

 

 

Putting aside which Primarch was the sexiest, if one of the paragons of humanity, especially one deemed incorruptable (By the emperor) enough to control the entirety of the Imperium's forces succumbed, then i don't see why Sanguinius would be immune.

[Billuriye]

"But the forces of Chaos were not quite so easily beaten. They whispered to the Primarchs from the warp, disturbing their dreams with promises of power, appealing to their pride, their martial prowess, and their courage. No single Primarch was wholly resistant to these unspoken temptations. The character of each was sorely tested, and fully half of them failed that test."

(2nd Edition Codex Chaos, p. 8)

 

Nothing about Primarchs being equally tested.

[Greyall]

We'll see what developments the HH Blood Angels novel brings, but Sanguinius has always seemed less human than his brothers and more of an avatar of humanity, much like his father - as Horus states.

 

Not to say he couldn't have been turned, but I'd say it would take a bit more from Chaos than putting the Angel through a near-death experience to corrupt him. The guy just launched himself at "Super Horus" after a fistfight with Ka'Bandha, dying to preserve the Emperor's work would hardly have merited a second of doubt for him.

[Walter Payton]

Before we look at the counterfactual idea of Sanguinius as Warmaster, we have to look at the fate of the primarch who was: Horus.

 

What we have to remember is that Horus could not cope with being Warmaster. His tragedy is that, despite being a great warrior and diplomat, the weight of his responsibilities and the horror of the galaxy were too much for him. He didn't have the answers that he thought he should. This lead to a decline in his state of mind that culminated in his treachery. The first beginnings of this mental decline can be seen in the effect that the failure of negotiations with the Interex has on him; he is assailed by doubts. Look at his exchange with Maloghurst at the beginning of False Gods.

 

We cannot know that Sanguinius would not have fallen. Whilst every primarch was tempted by Chaos (and Sanguinius is to be admired for rejecting such temptations twice; first from Ka-Bandha on Signus and again from Horus on the Vengeful Spirit), the assumption that Sanguinius would not have fallen is based upon Warmaster Sanguinius being as an individual unchanged from Primarch Sanguinius. This is a faulty assumption. We cannot know to any degree of certainty how the Heresy would have played out if at all had Sanguinius been Warmaster.

[Ubermensch Commander]

You assume that physical flaws are sufficient to cause someone to fall to Chaos. Horus semingly had no such flaws and he fell so I fail to see the link. Surely it is the personality that is the key factor here?

 

 

My point is to demonstrate that he was already touched and that it is amusing since it never seems to enter the dialogue. But that was not the crux of the argument, as I am sure you will notice by the paragraph following my opening sentence describing the wings. Sanguinius gene-seed, as with most/all of them contained a flaw or if that word is too strongly loaded a potential for mutation. It emerged in the Blood Angels upon his death and arose briefly with his first encounter with the Bloodthirster, Ka'bandah. Thus we see a flaw existed within the Angel and his brood from the start and, given a scenario where Sanguinius was Warmaster and subjected to the more direct attentions of the Chaos gods as well as the pressures inherent with such a position, Sanguinius may well have succumbed given enough time.

[Legatus]

"But the forces of Chaos were not quite so easily beaten. They whispered to the Primarchs from the warp, disturbing their dreams with promises of power, appealing to their pride, their martial prowess, and their courage. No single Primarch was wholly resistant to these unspoken temptations. The character of each was sorely tested, and fully half of them failed that test."

(2nd Edition Codex Chaos, p. 8)

 

Nothing about Primarchs being equally tested.

No, just that they all were tested "sorely".

 

 

Also, on the matter of Primarch being more or less resistant to the lure of Chaos, this is from "Angels of Darkness". But it is merely one man's opinion:

 

"’In some, that learning was perhaps a semblance of what the Emperor intended. Roboute Guilliman was the greatest of the primarchs, and never once wavered in his dedication and service. But he was inferior to Horus in every way. He was not as ableminded, nor as charismatic, and not as physically adept. Why was it that Horus turned to the powers of Chaos, perfect as he supposedly was, when Guilliman, his inferior, is still renowned ten thousand years later as the shining example of a primarch? It is because Guilliman had learned incorruptibility. For whatever reason, from whatever source, Guilliman had shaped his mind to make it impregnable to the lure of power and personal ambition. He said Space Marines were unsullied by self-aggrandisement, and he spoke truly for he took all Space Marines to be as worthy as himself. Horus, somewhere in his upbringing, had learned a fatal weakness, a chink in the armour of his soul that allowed him to consider himself greater than the Emperor. He turned against his master, as did those who also had such flaws"

 

There is also a reference in the Codex Space Wolves about how the Space Wolves are "immune to the tendrils of despair, apathy or discontent" because they have pretty much the perfect life they would wish for. The same was likely true for Russ, having found his perfect place in life, having met and now fighting for his father, who was the greatest warrior of mankind. There was nothing the Chaos Gods could tempt him with.

[Walter Payton]

"But the forces of Chaos were not quite so easily beaten. They whispered to the Primarchs from the warp, disturbing their dreams with promises of power, appealing to their pride, their martial prowess, and their courage. No single Primarch was wholly resistant to these unspoken temptations. The character of each was sorely tested, and fully half of them failed that test."

(2nd Edition Codex Chaos, p. 8)

 

Nothing about Primarchs being equally tested.

No, just that they all were tested "sorely".

 

 

Also, on the matter of Primarch being more or less resistant to the lure of Chaos, this is from "Angels of Darkness". But it is merely one man's opinion:

 

"’In some, that learning was perhaps a semblance of what the Emperor intended. Roboute Guilliman was the greatest of the primarchs, and never once wavered in his dedication and service. But he was inferior to Horus in every way. He was not as ableminded, nor as charismatic, and not as physically adept. Why was it that Horus turned to the powers of Chaos, perfect as he supposedly was, when Guilliman, his inferior, is still renowned ten thousand years later as the shining example of a primarch? It is because Guilliman had learned incorruptibility. For whatever reason, from whatever source, Guilliman had shaped his mind to make it impregnable to the lure of power and personal ambition. He said Space Marines were unsullied by self-aggrandisement, and he spoke truly for he took all Space Marines to be as worthy as himself. Horus, somewhere in his upbringing, had learned a fatal weakness, a chink in the armour of his soul that allowed him to consider himself greater than the Emperor. He turned against his master, as did those who also had such flaws"

 

There is also a reference in the Codex Space Wolves about how the Space Wolves are "immune to the tendrils of despair, apathy or discontent" because they have pretty much the perfect life they would wish for. The same was likely true for Russ, having found his perfect place in life, having met and now fighting for his father, who was the greatest warrior of mankind. There was nothing the Chaos Gods could tempt him with.

 

The odd thing about the C:SW line is that Space Wolves seem to fall to Chaos fairly often as compared to other chapters.

[Legatus]

Well, there is the story about the Wolf of Fenris. But I never really liked the entire concept of first founding Chapter Marines joining the Red Corsairs in droves that has been started with the 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines (showing Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Crimson Fists Red Corsairs). Seems a bit too easy. I think it was a bad choice to pick Marines from the big name Chapters to show in Red Corsair colors.

It has ever since been my hypothesis that Huron Blackheart is in command of some kind of mind control technique, since there is no way that entire squads of First and Second Founding Chapters would just willy nilly turn and swear allegiance to a renegade Chapter Master.

[Walter Payton]

Well, there is the story about the Wolf of Fenris. But I never really liked the entire concept of first founding Chapter Marines joining the Red Corsairs in droves that has been started with the 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines (showing Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Crimson Fists Red Corsairs). Seems a bit too easy. I think it was a bad choice to pick Marines from the big name Chapters to show in Red Corsair colors.

It has ever since been my hypothesis that Huron Blackheart is in command of some kind of mind control technique, since there is no way that entire squads of First and Second Founding Chapters would just willy nilly turn and swear allegiance to a renegade Chapter Master.

 

Well, take comfort from this:

 

"He [Warmaster Honsou] doubted that any of Macragge's finest would be found in this [ New Badab's] garrison." - Heroes of the Space Marines

 

:whistling:

 

Back on topic, surely Sanguinius might just have been changed by becoming warmaster? Horus couldn't cope with being Warmaster, we have no reason to believe Sanguinius would have.

[Brother Excedis]

I may be a devout BA player and love my primarch as much as any other devout brother. However I will not argue the idea of the challenges Sanguinius would have to face as warmaster. They would have been immensely great and stressful. However I feel he would have been better because of his nature of his children, while his children, are every bit his equal and worth his attention. He believed in more of a brotherhood of arms with a chain of command then Horus. He was also very much about the people of the imperium. Horus did care immensely about the people, and as we saw in the first HH book he let all of his people speak for planning. Now Sanguinius did the same. But what I am angered about is this whole red thirst and black rage arguement. It is well noted in the BA codex throughout that it is more of a psychic resonance caused by Sanguinius' death that "awoke" this part. Moreover it seemed to more or less amplify it. It already existed, it was a "fault" caused by the intereaction between the geneseed, awakening process, and the initiates. Plus the black rage did not appear ful yuntil this psychic resonance occurred. However this is also an incredible strength. To be able to draw upon such things without corruption is incredible. Mephy did so and so did Rafen, and we can be sure Lord Commander Dante did so as well. But also we never hear of a death company marine or red thirst afflicted marine turning to chaos do we? so obviously not something the gods of chaos can take that kind of advantage of otherwise it would have happened long ago. Moriar the chosen has been the death company's main dreadnought for an incredibly lengthy amount of time even for dreadnoughts. If there was any chance he could have been manipulated it would have happened already. Even the vainglorious Captain Tycho did not turn, and Slaneesh or Khorne could have taken full advantage of him. These are psychic resonances empowered and furthered by Sanguinius' death, not something Chaos did.

 

With regards to him being warmaster I do believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that he became so when Horus turned. I could be entirely wrong though. Plus Sanguinius may have been physically altered but that was his suffering. The others received mental altering. Look at Russ, Horus, the Lion, Fulgrim, or Perturabo. THey were all modified mentally (albeit Russ had some physical as well).

 

Also that whole red corsair thing irks me. The first and second foundings were the most loyal out of all space marine chapters because they are the ones who came straight from the legions. seriously. They would not turn so fast and the space wolves are incredibly resistant to chaos as described in their codex because they are slightly simpler people when it comes to society. That entire happening makes no sense to me at all.

[Torvak Kyre]

Even angels can fall.

 

someone has been paying too much attention to the lynx excite advert! :whistling:

 

 

On a more serious note, personally I think chaos would have eventually got Sanguinius but after a lot longer time.

[Blood Angel Scout]

Apart from my obvious bias, I don't believe Sanguinius would've fallen to Chaos due to existing examples of his upbringing on Baal, the need to protect the rest of the tribe from attacks or his immediate recognition of the Emperor when he landed, meaning he knew his place in life, enhanced with his "foresight/precog" ability that essentially define his personality/ego as a selfless character.

 

Additionally, the events on Signus Prime were of such a shock to him, physically and mentally (first time he'd had a beatdown as far as we know and the mental anguish from realising the betrayal by Horus that directly lead to his "sons" being slaughtered) that his rage was overpowering. This can also be used to explain the reason behind the BA becoming bloodthirsty, vengeful mob who wanted to avenge their primarch's defeat, as this rage was evident in Sanguinius himself as a youth, (he was described as having a halo above his head when destroying a band of mutants on Baal, righteous fury type aspect)

 

At this point, it's important to reference the sanguination method that the BA use as it was the living blood of the primarch that activated the metamorphosis from rad-scarred humans into marines. Therefore reasonable to suggest that this rage was "felt" by all marines, leading to the desire to obliterate their opponent completely i.e. not even a recognisable corpse, just a pile of flesh and bone, which as far as I'm aware, is also the first evidence of the red thirst in current fluff

 

Leading from this to the difference between the red thirst and the black rage:

Previously mentioned was the method of sanguination to create marines and following his demise, this method was no longer available, instead having to take the geneseed from the primarch, who would've been fully in the depths of his fury at time of death and therefore plausible to suggest that this would, lead to new initiates recieving a higher level of "rage", hence there was not a death company in existence prior to the heresy therefore either red thirst/black rage should'nt be used as evidence to support a reason why Sanguinius could've fallen to Chaos, as in my opinion, these traits are the reaction/result from combatting the Chaotic elements

[Brother Excedis]

Your probably right. I mean for god's sake they corrupted half of the astartes in one fell swoop. They would have had slaneesh and khorne working the angles. It wouldnt have been very hard honestly, harder in comparison to horus, but still.

[MagicMan]

Im sure Sanguinius had flaws that Chaos could exploit.

 

 

The angle put forward to Horus was that Big E would use them to ascend to godhood, and then see them forgotten, giving away all they'd won to others.

 

 

Since Sanguinius seemed to care about the people so deeply, what if Chaos showed them the hundred thousand people sacrificed everyday to keep the Big E on his golden throne, or something.

[Astus]

Thanks for all the replies, personally I think that if the Chaos Gods tried to corrupt Warmaster Sanguinius, it would at least take a lot more effort than Horus.

 

Now, my other question relating this is: what would have had to happen for Sanguinius to become Warmaster?

Again I'd like to know what you guys think.

 

The Promethean

[Nemesor]

Lot of fanboyism in this thread.

 

Much as you might like to believe it, no matter how much you like somebody, they're no less susceptible to Chaos than anyone else. Except Grey Knights. You know why? Because GW shows us them falling. Only Grey Knights don't.

 

As for Sanguinius, he'd fall in Horus' position. Any Primarch would, the Chaos Gods would just come at it from different angles. Everyone has weaknesses. Anyone who doesn't is a Mary Sue, and those are bad characters. Bloody boring to read about. None of the Primarchs are Mary Sues.

 

... The Emperor is though.

 

*flees*

[Aqatone]

I'm quite surprised at the rose tinted glasses going on in this thread. Chaos can manipulate anything to their own needs. It took A LOT to turn Horus but it happened, eventually. The same would have become of Sanguinius.

[Fei Yuki]

I'm gonna go with that regardless who was to be Warmaster, Chaos would have found a way. They exploited Horus' ambitions and fears, pretty sure they could have shown Sanguinius something that would have struck home and made him turn.

[Morollan]

All I'm going to add is that fanboi-ism works both ways. And words to the effect of "Chaos wants chaos gets" is merely being a fanboi for the other side.