Sanguinius as Warmaster

[MagicMan]

But GW decided that they would ignore that fact and show a whole section of Sw turning on their own brothers and joining up with Huron? Thats just poor writing.

 

So its poor writing if it makes the precious sons of Russ fallible?

 

Pfft.

 

 

Surely russ would have been a better canditate or catch than mortarian or pertubro or Fulgrim.

 

Why? Angron could've probably slapped Leman around anyday, does that make Angron a better candidate?

 

 

 

Edit : Don't get me wrong, i like the Space Wolves, i just don't get the dogmatic (lol what a pun) view some wolf players seem to have about their favourite Legion.

 

Horus is probably my favourite Primarch, though i don't really like Chaos much, but i can admit he doesn't piss fine wine and fart gold dust.

[Billuriye]

Why? Angron could've probably slapped Leman around anyday, does that make Angron a better candidate?

 

Don't even go there man. Vs stuff is bane of proper discussion.

[MagicMan]

Don't even go there man. Vs stuff is bane of proper discussion.

 

 

 

True. I just don't see why the Loyalist primarchs would be better picks than the traitor Primarchs.

 

 

In my mind, Chaos got all the primarchs it wanted.

[The 13th Goat]

What exactly was it that Horus went through that was so different and difficult? Seems to me he fell pretty easily.

 

Ignoring all the internal stresses with his role as warmaster, the feeling of abandoment by his father, attacked and almost killed with a deamon infused weapon, forced to relive an unending dream where he was shown a bleak future, and resurrection by the Chaos gods, then yes it was all nice and simple. I'm amazed they managed to drag such an easy turn over 3 books! :lol:

 

 

In my opinion Sanguinius would never fall to chaos-never. Its the biggest part of his fluff that he is pure and noble.

 

So was Fulgrim and Horus.

 

Just becuase the fluff says he is pure and noble doesn't mean he was incorruptable. Most of the fluff is written from hindsight, so saying he never fell is fact. Saying he could never fall is simply speculation.

 

To be honest, this has the making's of a firestorm. There are only 2 ways this can end:

1. Moderators swoop in like Chaplins on Assult packs and close this for insighting bad blood between the brotherhood.
   
2. Or, AD-B posts something along the lines of:
   

 

"And the Emperor looked at Sanguinius and speculated whether he could prevail against the storm of Chaos..."

 

OR

"And the Emperor looked and Sanguinius and thought, "Should I tell him his real name is Mary "Perfect Pants" Sue?"

^_^

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

without appearing as a fanboy,

 

I believe that each primarch was tested by chaos, and some were resistant to it effects. i dont believe this was a part of their biology, but rather their upbringing. almost all of the loyal primarchs were found by benevolent rulers (or atleast not total tyrants) and were raised in the idea of unified humanity. this dream lent them the strength to resist the lure of chaos.

the traitor primarch took power on their worlds (again, being general here) and so werent used to the idea of sharing power, but rather being in chrage. this slight flaw is what chaos used to break them individually. a common factor among traitors is that they were given or took power with little challange against them.

 

the Lion: member of the Order, then its heads

Guilliman: Father was a just Consul and slain, and he took his vengeance and power

Russ: found among wolves, raised as a human and pledged to his king, took power upon kings death

Dorn: not enough known

Khan: elevated to power after father's death and unified tribes against unjust rules of planet

vulkan: traveled to numerous cities and trained/unified natives against raiding dark eldar

ferrus manus: nto enough known, but strong clan structure

Sanguinius: found by unmutated humans and unified them against raiding mutants.

Corax: unified prisoners against jailers

 

fulgrim: took power as he was smartest/powerful, brought world to a stable order. no challange.

angron: life as a slave and raised slave army. never had a unified dream, but rather one of personal freedom

mortarion: cast out from his "father" trained human to combat the tyrants followers. never properly challanged until emperors arrival (except for planet itself trying to kill him)

A & O: not enough known

magnus: took power as his was most gifted, never really challanged

horus: not enough known

lorgar: we all know his weakness

night haunter: batman on pcp.

perturbo: took power from his own father

 

if corax, for example, had landed among the jailers rather than the prisoners, i do believe he could have fallen to chaos as he would have lacked the required lessons in his youth to ward off the advances of chaos.

 

on topic, i believe sanguinius could have resisted the lures of chaos.

 

WLK

[Zynk Kaladin]

Just becuase the fluff says he is pure and noble doesn't mean he was incorruptable. Most of the fluff is written from hindsight, so saying he never fell is fact. Saying he could never fall is simply speculation.

 

By that logic, saying he could fall is also speculation. He sacrificed himself, though, and I don't think he'll be moving for a while... :D

 

Going back to the OP's post for a second, in an alternate WH40K universe, sure Sangy could have been Warmaster and could have fallen to Chaos due to a multitude of reasons. As it stands for the Angel, he didn't fall, which has a lot to do with his noble and humanitarian beliefs and traits. The Angel is meant to be "THE ANGEL", a shining beacon of humanity's hopes and dreams, a paragon of righteousness, the archetypical "good guy". To the dark gods corrupting him and pissing on all that is "holy" would have been the greatest thing since rotting, bleeding, ever changing sliced bread that for some reason you want to eat. I would imagine that they would have tried real hard to turn him during the HH (I have no proof now, but I think a HH book should give us more insight into the Primarch of the Blood Angels). Did he fall to chaos? No. Did he follow his closest brother into damnation? No. Would Sangy ever feel prideful at being "#1". No, his personality was that of humility.

 

Yea sure, for an alternate universe a corrupted angel sounds pretty cool and maybe possible with a few fluff changes. But the Sangy we know right now? pssshhhh, Emperor please...

[Walter Payton]

There seems to be a lot of assumption on this thread.

 

I reiterate, in order to understand the possible fall of another primarch we must look at the one who did: Horus

 

The incident at the Delphos was not the reason Horus fell. If it had occurred a year earlier, for example just after Sixty-Three Nineteen, Horus would likely have resisted. The incident on Davin was essentially opportunism; Chaos merely sought to create the opportunity. They manipulated events in order to precipitate a mental breakdown on Horus's part. He could not cope with being Warmaster, and as he rejected his role as commander, so too did he reject the man who had placed him in it: the Emperor. Horus was already a troubled individual before he was given the visions. We have no way of knowing whether or not Sanguinius would have coped better with command than Horus.

 

What exactly was it that Horus went through that was so different and difficult?

 

Is this a joke?

 

Horus had the strain of leading the most powerful military command in the history of the Galaxy. He had the responsibilties of being Warmaster, and the unanswered questions that the Emperor left him with. He had to contrast his own idealism with a command that called upon him to commit slaughter in the hundreds of trillions. Horus failed a test Sanguinius never even took.

 

Seems to me he fell pretty easily.

 

Then re-read the book.

[Zynk Kaladin]

We have no way of knowing whether or not Sanguinius would have coped better with command than Horus.

 

Right, as mentioned in an earlier post most of our arguments are based on speculation and assumptions because of the nature of what we are arguing. What really would happen is hard to tell, but I feel the Angel might have had a better chance because of his personality shown in events that transpired in fluff and the reason why GW made him as a character. But... this is just a humble opinion.

[calgar101]

Just a quote to add food to though etc etc!

 

QUOTE (A D-B @ Dec 20 2010, 06:32 PM) *

Chaos will go up against the freaking Blood Angels, and it will fail.

[MonSTeR]

Much as you might like to believe it, no matter how much you like somebody, they're no less susceptible to Chaos than anyone else. Except Grey Knights. You know why? Because GW shows us them falling. Only Grey Knights don't.

this is the most important post in this thread. Remember the Horus Heresy itself started as a single throwaway line in a WD article. the back story was then filled in piece by piece over the years. The fluff itself is as mutable as chaos. Even the Grey Knights "could" falter, they just haven't in the fluff "yet"...

 

Should Sanguinius have become Warmaster, his fall to the powers of Chaos, or not, would simply have depended on a few scrawls on the back of a napkin in a pub somewhere in Nottingham. If it was considered suitably ironic that the most noble primarch was to fall, then in the name of a good story, he would be the main bad guy. But that's not what was decided that fateful lunchtime and the Horus Heresy was born...

[Legatus]

Much as you might like to believe it, no matter how much you like somebody, they're no less susceptible to Chaos than anyone else. Except Grey Knights. You know why? Because GW shows us them falling. Only Grey Knights don't.

Umh, GW shows us that all Space Marines could potentially fall, and state that only Grey Knights don't. (GW didn't really say that in the Grey KNights sources so far, it only allways seemed to be interpreted that way. But I have not gone through the new Codex fluff yet.)

But in the same manner, GW says that all Primarchs were sorely tested, and half of them failed the test, while the other half didn't. That means that the loyal Primarchs are about as probable to fall as the Grey Knights are. Or even less so, since the loyal Primarchs are now all dead or disappeared, and we have the hindsight that they did not fall, while Grey Knights are still around, so at least there is the possibility of them falling.

 

Also, remember how it said that all Primarchs were sorely tested? Horus or a Bloodthirster suggesting that Sanguinius join their side after having just slaughtered thousands of his Blood Angels is not sorely testing.

[Aegnor]

As this is all purely speculative, I'll give you my thoughts on what would have happened.

 

I don't think Sanguinas would have fallen the way Horus did. I'm not saying that he was incorruptible or perfect or whatever, but I think the Chaos gods would have found him harder to subvert as directly (relatively) as they did Horus. Sang. had a less selfish understanding if the Emperor's vision and his place in it. With enough pressure and time, Chaos could have made him fall, but in the ways i can see that happening, he wouldn't have been the unifying leader Horus was for the rebels, so it would have been an own goal by Chaos.

 

I don't think that would have stopped Chaos making it's move to destroy the Emperor or split the Imperium. Sanguinas as warmaster would have been susceptible to more subtle manipulation to bring about these goals, and Chaos would have still have found Horus a ready champion given his feelings of having being snubbed for the WM job. The Heresy would have gone down very differently, but still would have occurred, with Sang. staying loyal but tragically unwittingly contributing to his own and the Emperor's demise.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I wish to contribute, once again, without being a fanboy.

 

As a note for fanboism - if you have nothing to contribute to the discussion beyond "Sanguinus/Russ was noblest/most awesome of some sort primarch, so he could never fall" or "Chaos can corrupt anything, it's the all-powerful" then please refrain from commenting, lest the thread become circular and I'm forced to close it :cuss

 

Now, back to the original discussion.

 

Chaos could have corrupted Sanguinus simply because he was so noble.

 

I imagine Chaos would arrange for all or most of the primarchs to meet, perhaps at Nikea or earlier, when the other two primarchs were... whatever was done to them was done. Now, Sanguinus may attempt to do something merciful or similarily noble, and one of the primarchs makes a passing comment on how noble Sanguinus is. Sanguinus, naturally, denies this and claims Horus is the kindest/whatever of the primarchs, but unanimously the others agree Sanguinus is by far the most compassionate/whatever of them all.

 

Sanguinus, who has been either 1)denying this and telling himself that Horus is best or 2) distracting himself with war not to think about it is forced to confront that he is the best, character-wise, of the primarchs. Being so noble, he humbly accepts this is simply how the Emperor made him.

 

But the next time he meets with a primarch, the thoughts of how noble he is return to Sanguinus. He's better than that primarch, because he's not so perfectionist/angry/cowardly/whatever.

 

From there his pride grows, Chaos slowly corrupts him and he eventually leads the Sanguine War against the Emperor.

 

That's the true threat of Chaos - even your greatest strengths, what makes you so resistant ot it's effects, become twisted, and eventually turn you into something you should have never become.

 

 

It's not about Chaos being powerful. It's about the dark possibilities for Sanguinus, that he so denies, and thus they remain only possibilities.

[MagicMan]

Now, Sanguinus may attempt to do something merciful or similarily noble, and one of the primarchs makes a passing comment on how noble Sanguinus is. Sanguinus, naturally, denies this and claims Horus is the kindest/whatever of the primarchs, but unanimously the others agree Sanguinus is by far the most compassionate/whatever of them all.

 

Sanguinus, who has been either 1)denying this and telling himself that Horus is best or 2) distracting himself with war not to think about it is forced to confront that he is the best, character-wise, of the primarchs. Being so noble, he humbly accepts this is simply how the Emperor made him.

 

 

I doubt the other primarchs went around licking Sanguinius arse all day.

[Hyaenidae]

Not everyone approved of Horus either, but he was still the Warmaster. They might not have been brown-nosing Sanguinius all day long, but they'd still have to respect his Emperor-given position and follow orders....

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Now, Sanguinus may attempt to do something merciful or similarily noble, and one of the primarchs makes a passing comment on how noble Sanguinus is. Sanguinus, naturally, denies this and claims Horus is the kindest/whatever of the primarchs, but unanimously the others agree Sanguinus is by far the most compassionate/whatever of them all.

 

Sanguinus, who has been either 1)denying this and telling himself that Horus is best or 2) distracting himself with war not to think about it is forced to confront that he is the best, character-wise, of the primarchs. Being so noble, he humbly accepts this is simply how the Emperor made him.

 

 

I doubt the other primarchs went around licking Sanguinius arse all day.

Of course they didn't. However, almost all the primarchs value some version of honour and nobility, and they would recognise Sanguinus as the most noble if such a sitation came up. Indeed, even if they wouldn't normally I could see the Chaos Gods planting a thought in their simply so they would speak up and unwittingly set up the begininnings of pride and arrogance in Sanguinus.

 

Take Russ, for example. He's the proudest primarch there is (ironicly, only Magnus challenged him on that) and it wouldn't be much of a stretch for him to say "Aye, Sanguinus, you're a merciful and wise ruler, not as savage as my Legion (because, you know, according to fluff the Space Wolves were attempting to appear animalistic). Maybe Curze chimed in with "Indeed, there is little crime in your realms" and then the rest of the primarchs start agreeing.

 

Then whatever the order of business is resumes, and the only one unduly affected is Sanguinus himself.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Indeed, even if they wouldn't normally I could see the Chaos Gods planting a thought in their simply so they would speak up and unwittingly set up the begininnings of pride and arrogance in Sanguinus.

 

I could see this as a good possibility if the OP is looking for cool ideas on corrupting the Angel. He starts to think he is a more just and benevolent ruler than the Emperor.

 

However, Sanguinius was also famous for his humility. It would be very tough for such small comments to stroke his ego. By his nature he would unknowingly be deaf to such whispers.

 

"Aye, Sanguinus, you're a merciful and wise ruler, not as savage as my Legion" -Russ

"But brother, you are as important to our Father as I am. My leadership means little for we are just brothers in the end." -Sang

 

"Indeed, there is little crime in your realms" -Curze

"And you keep order in your conquered worlds. All in service to our Father." -Sang

[Aegnor]

In that vein (geddit? Vein, and he's a blood angel? A blood... Oh forget it), his fall would be less about him beginning to believe his own press in a non humble way, but rather when he starts to fail at meeting his own standards. He does want to be fair and just, and do the noble thing - so Chaos would start putting him in a position where over and over again he is forced to do something opposite.

[MagicMan]

Not everyone approved of Horus either, but he was still the Warmaster. They might not have been brown-nosing Sanguinius all day long, but they'd still have to respect his Emperor-given position and follow orders....

 

 

Hah of course, but Apostle was suggesting that Sanguinius downfall would've been through the compliments of others.

 

 

''Your hair looks noble today, Sang.''

 

'Uh thanks, Angron'

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Id of love to see Pertuabo as the war master, he was cold, logical super inteligent, a master of warefare, his soldiers are known to fight like blood angelsor world eaters in cc, the only things which make him lacking (i assume as i havent read any books with him in yet) are hes not much of a speaker and he lacks the strength of faith.

[Morollan]

There seems to be a lot of assumption on this thread.

 

I reiterate, in order to understand the possible fall of another primarch we must look at the one who did: Horus

 

The incident at the Delphos was not the reason Horus fell. If it had occurred a year earlier, for example just after Sixty-Three Nineteen, Horus would likely have resisted. The incident on Davin was essentially opportunism; Chaos merely sought to create the opportunity. They manipulated events in order to precipitate a mental breakdown on Horus's part. He could not cope with being Warmaster, and as he rejected his role as commander, so too did he reject the man who had placed him in it: the Emperor. Horus was already a troubled individual before he was given the visions. We have no way of knowing whether or not Sanguinius would have coped better with command than Horus.

 

I agree with the above. My opinion, and it is unsubstantiated, is that Sanguinius would have dealt with it better and would not have fallen prey to the same fate as Horus. That opinion seems to be getting shouted down by the equally unsubstantiated opinions of the pro-chaos lobby, who maintain that Chaos can do anything to anyone and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

 

What exactly was it that Horus went through that was so different and difficult?

 

Is this a joke?

 

Horus had the strain of leading the most powerful military command in the history of the Galaxy. He had the responsibilties of being Warmaster, and the unanswered questions that the Emperor left him with. He had to contrast his own idealism with a command that called upon him to commit slaughter in the hundreds of trillions. Horus failed a test Sanguinius never even took.

 

So you're saying that the mere act of being promoted to Warmaster was what caused Horus to fall? Chaos could have taken a few years off and Horus would still have fallen? And any other Primarch in that role would have gone the same way? That's your opinion but not one that I share. Every person is different. What causes some people to collapse prompts others to rise to heights they never knew were possible.

 

Seems to me he fell pretty easily.

 

Then re-read the book.

 

Horus fell remarkably easily and primarily through the manipulation of a mortal (Erebus). As I do not subscribe to your view (above) that simply being Warmaster was enough to cause a mental breakdown in anyone, I then move onto external factors, in this case Erebus and the Ruinous Powers. What did they actually do directly to Horus? Well, if you read the books, not a great deal. Erebus played on his feelings of abandonment and also his pride/vanity. This was done almost exclusively with words alone. The events on Davin, masterfully arranged by Erebus, gave him (Erebus) the opportunity to further influence Horus and this time his words were backed up by the visions provided by the Ruinous Powers. That is pretty much the only time that Chaos took a direct hand in Horus's fall and even then, Horus knew that he was being lied to by Erebus and the Chaos Gods, even if he didn't know how much of what he saw was also lies or distortions. He nevertheless decided to go along with them and in the end his fall was a conscious decision. Once again. my opinion is that not everyone would have fallen if placed in the same situation. This basically boils down to the character of the individual and we have no way of knowing how other Primarchs would have dealt with this. It is not however an inevitability that any other Primarch would also fall. Chaos is not all-powerful. The fate of Horus should make that very clear in itself.

[The 13th Goat]

In that vein (geddit? Vein, and he's a blood angel? A blood... Oh forget it), his fall would be less about him beginning to believe his own press in a non humble way, but rather when he starts to fail at meeting his own standards. He does want to be fair and just, and do the noble thing - so Chaos would start putting him in a position where over and over again he is forced to do something opposite.

 

The tone of this thread has greatly improved! :(

 

I totally agree here. What would happen if Chaos caused wide spread rebellions on Blood Angel worlds, including Baal. If only his worlds were to turn heretical and have to be purged eventually the Emperor would call him up and demand a more hardline approach. A rift wuld form, and Chaos could exploit that. All you need to do is adjust the relationship with the Emperor and you have a possible traitor.

 

 

QUOTE (A D-B @ Dec 20 2010, 06:32 PM) *

Chaos will go up against the freaking Blood Angels, and it will fail.

 

That is massively ambiguois. That could be Chaos forces, the Bloodthirster, the Dark Gods or even worse, the continuation of the Blood Angel triology on the horizon!

[Brother Ambroz]

Horus fell remarkably easily and primarily through the manipulation of a mortal (Erebus). As I do not subscribe to your view (above) that simply being Warmaster was enough to cause a mental breakdown in anyone, I then move onto external factors, in this case Erebus and the Ruinous Powers. What did they actually do directly to Horus? Well, if you read the books, not a great deal. Erebus played on his feelings of abandonment and also his pride/vanity. This was done almost exclusively with words alone. The events on Davin, masterfully arranged by Erebus, gave him (Erebus) the opportunity to further influence Horus and this time his words were backed up by the visions provided by the Ruinous Powers. That is pretty much the only time that Chaos took a direct hand in Horus's fall and even then, Horus knew that he was being lied to by Erebus and the Chaos Gods, even if he didn't know how much of what he saw was also lies or distortions. He nevertheless decided to go along with them and in the end his fall was a conscious decision. Once again. my opinion is that not everyone would have fallen if placed in the same situation. This basically boils down to the character of the individual and we have no way of knowing how other Primarchs would have dealt with this. It is not however an inevitability that any other Primarch would also fall. Chaos is not all-powerful. The fate of Horus should make that very clear in itself.

 

You're entitled to your own opinions about whether he fell easily or not. The dark gods may not have seemed to have that much of a direct hand in the fall of Horus but I think there was alot more behind the scenes. For example Davin's moon they sacrificed the governor and portions of the population to wound/influence Horus. They did similar things to the other primarchs that fell. There doesn't seem to be all that much action from the ruinous powers turning Horus because something direct wouldn't work. The only thing they could do is slowly and subtly whisper in his ear through Erebus or show him visions. Horus wasn't a psyker like some of his brothers and in my opinion probably couldn't decipher what was happening as well as Lorgar, Magnus, Sainguinus etc. It was all of this and more that caused him to fall. Much of the reason he fell was he believed the Emperor was betraying them to become a God and thus he would take the mantle from him and use chaos as a weapon to destroy all menaces humanity faced. That was what origionally brought him to betray the emperor in my opinion.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Not everyone approved of Horus either, but he was still the Warmaster. They might not have been brown-nosing Sanguinius all day long, but they'd still have to respect his Emperor-given position and follow orders....

 

 

Hah of course, but Apostle was suggesting that Sanguinius downfall would've been through the compliments of others.

 

 

''Your hair looks noble today, Sang.''

 

'Uh thanks, Angron'

Not quie my intent, but the thought is certainly amusing <_<

 

To provide a serious counter-argument, I doubt that something as shallow and petty as looks would even cross the path of Sanguinus's thoughts, mostly because he already knew he was one of the most beautiful creatures in existence, and he hears it from almost every person he encounters (or, at least he can see it on their faces). I imagine his reaction would be similar to the one you put up - one of confusion, because his brothers either 1) don't care or 2) are probably close enough to him for Sanguinus to brush it off as kindness between brothers.

 

Aegnor - Didn't even think of that, hmmmm...

 

I could easily see him going to Murder, and perhaps his Legion isn't very successful? When Horus comes and one of his captains figures out - by sheer dumb luck - how to provide a safe drop route, as the Warmaster and commander Sanguinus blames himself for not solving the problem faster and better, when the Chaos Gods or Erebus are subly redirecting his thoughts so that he never realises to destroy the trees. I could even see the Chaos Gds allowing him to get close to the situation, just to build the frustration.

 

Morollan - I hope I am not a member of the pro-Chaos lobby? If so, I apoligise, I simply wish to show the threat of Chaos.

 

That said, I feel I must repeat myself - it's not about Chaos being "Hahaha, we can do anything because we're Chaos!" , it's about Sanguinus, and how even he could have a darker side.

 

In a way, it is about Chaos, because that's the nature of it - it's not some big, bad, evil monster lurking in the sixth dimension, that's just the manifestation of it. What Chaos truly is, is the 'dark side' in people, even if that 'dark side' is only a possibility.

 

Give that 'dark side' a will of it's own and a sixth dimension to reside in, and you see the Chaos Gods. Their will is to grow stronger, and if they chose to do that through Sanguinus rather than Horus than Sanguinus would have been twisted to serve himself.

[Walter Payton]

What exactly was it that Horus went through that was so different and difficult?

 

Is this a joke?

 

Horus had the strain of leading the most powerful military command in the history of the Galaxy. He had the responsibilties of being Warmaster, and the unanswered questions that the Emperor left him with. He had to contrast his own idealism with a command that called upon him to commit slaughter in the hundreds of trillions. Horus failed a test Sanguinius never even took.

 

So you're saying that the mere act of being promoted to Warmaster was what caused Horus to fall? Chaos could have taken a few years off and Horus would still have fallen? And any other Primarch in that role would have gone the same way? That's your opinion but not one that I share. Every person is different. What causes some people to collapse prompts others to rise to heights they never knew were possible.

 

Well, firstly, you're saying that being promoted to Warmaster was a "mere act," rather than one of the greatest responsibilities ever borne by anyone. But no, I am not saying that being promoted to Warmaster caused his fall, I am saying that he had great difficulty coping with the responsibility of the post. His difficulty was exacerbated by Erebus. You agreed with this analysis in your previous post:

I agree with the above.

 

So my question to you is: why do you feel such a complex string of events consistutes an "easy," fall?

 

You seem to be arguing that he was in a rational state of mind and completely mentally typical when he was given the choice of Chaos or Empire. You seem to believe that those who offered him the choice were being straight with him.

 

Being on the sharp end of a mental decline and being manipulated is not falling "pretty easily." He was manipulated and decieved, in the grip of forces which he had no knowledge. Of course, that doesn't excuse him, but neither does it make him someone who flopped over and turned when Chaos came calling.

 

As I do not subscribe to your view (above) that simply being Warmaster was enough to cause a mental breakdown in anyone

 

What I actually said was that being Warmaster was enough to cause a mental decline (not a breakdown; it didn't happen all at once) in Horus and his inablilty to deal with this was a major factor in his fall. I then said that we could not be sure that the same thing could not have happened to the Angel:

 

We have no way of knowing whether or not Sanguinius would have coped better with command than Horus

 

That statement took into account both possibilities; that Sanguinius would not have cracked and that he did: "whether or not." It also made clear that this is speculation: "no way of knowing." I never said that being Warmaster would have caused stress "in anyone." One reason I did not do this is because it would be wrong to make such an extrapolation. You are misrepresenting me. Please stop.

 

I then move onto external factors, in this case Erebus and the Ruinous Powers.

 

You are assuming a demarcation between external and internal factors. People can only be manipulated if they are open to it. If Erebus had tried it on with a Horus who was secure and happy he would not have fallen. Erebus built upon Horus's doubts. The causes of Horus's fall are more complex that simply: Erebus did it. He helped, but was a single cog in a very large machine.

 

What did they actually do directly to Horus? Well, if you read the books, not a great deal. Erebus played on his feelings of abandonment and also his pride/vanity. This was done almost exclusively with words alone.

 

Your point is? Why is this not direct? And why would indirect manipulation be any less potent? This is semantics.

 

The events on Davin, masterfully arranged by Erebus, gave him (Erebus) the opportunity to further influence Horus and this time his words were backed up by the visions provided by the Ruinous Powers. That is pretty much the only time that Chaos took a direct hand in Horus's fall and even then, Horus knew that he was being lied to by Erebus and the Chaos Gods, even if he didn't know how much of what he saw was also lies or distortions.

 

By this logic, dictators do not kill anyone because they do not actually wield the gun, but rather order others to do it. Chaos using a pawn (Erebus) and Erebus manipulating Horus are very clear intrusions and influences. Whether Horus "directly" communed with the Dark Powers is irrelevant.

 

He nevertheless decided to go along with them and in the end his fall was a conscious decision.

 

It was. By a manipulated and deluded individual. The process of his fall was long and hard; it was not a single event on Davin, but a long and difficult road. The mere fact that Chaos went to the trouble of manipulating the Word Bearers, corrupting the Davinites, helping Erebus and risking discovery should tell you something about how easy it was to get Horus to fall from the entities that made it happen.

 

Once again. my opinion is that not everyone would have fallen if placed in the same situation.

 

Of course they wouldn't. Again, I never said that, merely that we did not know how other primarchs would react.

 

It is not however an inevitability that any other Primarch would also fall.

 

The pro-chaos lobby...maintain that Chaos can do anything to anyone and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

 

I never made either assertion.

 

I merely raised the issue that Sanguinius, had he been Warmaster, would have had additional responsibilities that could have had a bad effect on him, as they did for Horus. It is not unreasonable to suggest that being Warmaster might have changed Sanguinius's character. Had it done so, then we would be dealing with a totally different Sanguinius. Therefore, it would be untenable to suggest that this new Sanguinius (if he indeed was changed) would be immune to corruption based on GW fluff dealing with a different one; the pre-Warmaster Sanguinius.

 

As I have said, both sides are making assumptions. Those who believe he would not have fallen are assuming that Warmaster Sanguinius would have been unchanged by his huge new responsibilities. Those who say that he would have are relying on an assumption first that he would have changed and second that he would have changed in such a way as to make himself susceptible to corruption. Both positions are flawed.