Sanguinius as Warmaster

[Legatus]

Well, firstly, you're saying that being promoted to Warmaster was a "mere act," rather than one of the greatest responsibilities ever borne by anyone. But no, I am not saying that being promoted to Warmaster caused his fall, I am saying that he had great difficulty coping with the responsibility of the post.

You know, I can think of someone who had the command over all Imperial armed forced, not too long after Horus had been Warmaster. :) And that was not at a time when the Imperium was just steamrolling over everyone either, it was at a time when the Imperium was faced with complete destruction.

[Marshal Rohr]

Legatus is right.

 

It was a terrible burden for Dorn to bear.

 

Yet he did his duty before relinquishing it to Guilliman so Dorn could rain vengeance on the traitors.

[Legatus]

Well, if you assume that "the Imperium" consisted of pretty much Terra only at the end, then yes, commanding the entirety of the Terran defense forces as well as three Space Marine Legions meant being in command over "all Imperial armed forces". And Dorn handled that admirably. He was clearly more able to handle the stress than Horus in the exact same situation.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

M2C and Legatus, please don't start this discussion, unless you wish to start a new thread.

[Legatus]

Well, it had been suggested that Sanguinius (and likely every Primarch) would have fallen if the Chaos Gods had only really tried, and one thing that had been put forward in particular was that Horus was under a heavy burden when being promoted to Warmaster (rather than that simply further enticing his egomania and thirst for power as previous sources would have us believe). But we have a canonical example of another loyalist having a similarly powerful position in the Imperium, and in much more dire times, so it cannot really be argued that any other Primarch put into such a position would also be more likely to fall.

[Allfather1]

Well, it had been suggested that Sanguinius (and likely every Primarch) would have fallen if the Chaos Gods had only really tried, and one thing that had been put forward in particular was that Horus was under a heavy burden when being promoted to Warmaster (rather than that simply further enticing his egomania and thirst for power as previous sources would have us believe). But we have a canonical example of another loyalist having a similarly powerful position in the Imperium, and in much more dire times, so it cannot really be argued that any other Primarch put into such a position would also be more likely to fall.

 

But that Primarch had seen first hand the horrors of Chaos. There was no Emperor to overthrow and many of his children(sp?nd ) had been killed by the most devout followers of Chaos. And while the times were dire he didn't have to command the likes of Angron and the Night Haunter.

[Visitor13]

Sanguinus would not have fallen in this alternative timeline because he did not fall in the regular one.

 

A Primarch is likely the greatest prize a Chaos God can ever wish for. So any attempt they make at winning one over must be treated as them giving it their very best. It doesn't matter if it's Erebus's subtle manipulations or Chaos Horus's unsubtle demands - both must be treated as equally tempting, and if Sanguinus managed to resist the latter, he would have managed to resist the former.

 

The alternative is believing that the Chaos Gods are essentially dumb and lazy, or just ultimately do not care if they manage to snag a Primarch or not, and so do not consider it worthwhile to tailor the character and intensity of their temptations to the statures of the individual Primarch. I don't find this convincing in the least.

[Billuriye]

A Primarch is likely the greatest prize a Chaos God can ever wish for.

How do you know ? They are not even the most powerful of their minions.

So any attempt they make at winning one over must be treated as them giving it their very best. It doesn't matter if it's Erebus's subtle manipulations or Chaos Horus's unsubtle demands - both must be treated as equally tempting, and if Sanguinus managed to resist the latter, he would have managed to resist the former.

Well, how exactly ? You say something without really backing it. How both are same?

The alternative is believing that the Chaos Gods are essentially dumb and lazy, or just ultimately do not care if they manage to snag a Primarch or not, and so do not consider it worthwhile to tailor the character and intensity of their temptations to the statures of the individual Primarch. I don't find this convincing in the least.

That's not really the alternative. The alternative is since Chaos is not omnipotent they tried as hard as they could to turn Sang. with given circumstances and they failed.

[Visitor13]

A Primarch is likely the greatest prize a Chaos God can ever wish for.

How do you know ? They are not even the most powerful of their minions.

 

And who would those most powerful minions be? If you mean Greater Daemons, they are very different from the Primarchs - they never needed to be turned to Chaos, they have always been Chaos.

 

So any attempt they make at winning one over must be treated as them giving it their very best. It doesn't matter if it's Erebus's subtle manipulations or Chaos Horus's unsubtle demands - both must be treated as equally tempting, and if Sanguinus managed to resist the latter, he would have managed to resist the former.

Well, how exactly ? You say something without really backing it. How both are same?

 

Do not underestimate the power of what a mere 'conversation' with Chaos Horus can do. After all, if you find yourself in his presence you are essentially in the presence of the Chaos Gods themselves. Who knows how many threats and temptations they can cram into your head given a few seconds. Take Mortarion - how long did his ordeal last in real time and how long in his subjective time?

 

 

 

The alternative is believing that the Chaos Gods are essentially dumb and lazy, or just ultimately do not care if they manage to snag a Primarch or not, and so do not consider it worthwhile to tailor the character and intensity of their temptations to the statures of the individual Primarch. I don't find this convincing in the least.

That's not really the alternative. The alternative is since Chaos is not omnipotent they tried as hard as they could to turn Sang. with given circumstances and they failed.

 

Exactly. If 'they tried as hard as they could to turn Sang' that means they really wanted him to turn. And so they used every trick in their book, likely drawing on their experience with the Fallen Primarchs as well as trying out a bunch of new things - and still they failed.

[Billuriye]

And who would those most powerful minions be? If you mean Greater Daemons, they are very different from the Primarchs - they never needed to be turned to Chaos, they have always been Chaos.

 

You got Doombreed who was a mere human before his ascendance.

 

Do not underestimate the power of what a mere 'conversation' with Chaos Horus can do. After all, if you find yourself in his presence you are essentially in the presence of the Chaos Gods themselves. Who knows how many threats and temptations they can cram into your head given a few seconds. Take Mortarion - how long did his ordeal last in real time and how long in his subjective time?

 

Mortarion turned to Daemonhood because he couldn't suffer the Destroyer Hive any longer. You might say he pussed out.

 

Exactly. If 'they tried as hard as they could to turn Sang' that means they really wanted him to turn. And so they used every trick in their book, likely drawing on their experience with the Fallen Primarchs as well as trying out a bunch of new things - and still they failed.

 

The key point is different circumstances. Same task you've accomplished can be impossible in different circumstances.

[Visitor13]

"You got Doombreed who was a mere human before his ascendance."

 

Yeah, I thought you'd mention him. But is there anything official confirming his superiority to Angron? Anyway, I don't think this matters much. Mere humans are a dime a billion. Primarchs are twenty in all. And even if given enough time they can't become more powerful Daemon Princes than any regular human (which I doubt), they are the Emperor's own creations after all. That alone should be enough of a motivator to a Chaos God to give it his absolute best to corrupt a Primarch.

 

"Mortarion turned to Daemonhood because he couldn't suffer the Destroyer Hive any longer. You might say he pussed out."

 

Exactly. So why not try to make Sang puss out? I'd be surprised if the Chaos Gods did not try that, among other things.

 

"The key point is different circumstances. Same task you've accomplished can be impossible in different circumstances."

 

OK, but I still think Sang would have resisted Chaos no matter the circumstances. Remember that once Chaos Horus was done 'talking' to him, he killed him. Hard. He did not injure, cripple or disable him in any way, to be able to try to turn him later, or even simply torment him for the hell of it - he killed him, in the most painful and vicious way Chaos could come up with. That looks like an act of utmost anger and frustration. Frustration at knowing you're not going to get what you want. Completely destroying it because you can never have it.

[The Broker]

Of course the Chaos Gods pulled every trick they could think of to corrupt every primarch.

 

There's no man more useful to the Chaos Gods than the primarchs at the time of the Heresy, and the reason is simple - the Legions.

 

A Bloodthirster or a Lord of Change may beat a primarch one on one (though I think a primarch would come up trumps - Sangy did put Ka'Bandha in a wheelchair after all), but no matter how powerful they are, they can only be in one place at a time.

 

If a primarch is corrupted, you get tens of thousands of Space Marines joining up. A prize worth having considering you're about to start the greatest war the galaxy has ever seen.

 

You can argue that the Gods didn't do everything they could to corrupt all the primarchs, that the loyalist primarchs were tempted less than the traitors. I don't think the Gods would be willing to give anyone the easy option, as it risks having another full legion guarding their greatest enemy - the Emperor.

 

It would be nice if the BL showed some of the loyalist primarchs being tempted, and rejecting the lure of Chaos though.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

You can argue that the loyalist primarchs less tempted (though I don't think they all were) because Chaos wanted the Imperium to have a pyrhic victory. Go read Legion, it'll tell you about it.

 

However. I do think some (like Sanguinus) were less tempted than, say, Horus, but not less than Angron or Perturabo, who never fully backed the Imperium anyways, for reasons of their own. They didn' take a lot of convincing other than "with you we've got enough force to pull it off".

 

The loyalist primarchs, like Guillemann, Khan, and Russ, for whatever reason were utterly devoted to the Imperium/Emperor. If the same level of persuasion was applied to both groups, clearly one would join Horus and the others wouldn't.

 

Again, Chaos is about the darker aspects of one's character - the rage of Angron and the bitterness of Perturabo, for example. Guillemann, Sanguinus and the like never allowed their darker aspects to take control of them, so they were effectively more immune to the arguments and machinations of Horus and Chaos.

 

That does not mean they would not have fallen. It just means it would have been either harder/different to persuade them.

[Azarias]

Sanguinus would not have fallen in this alternative timeline because he did not fall in the regular one.

 

That's some flawed logic, to say the least. You can't have two separate bodies of data, and apply the same conclusion to both of them. Now, it must be granted by every one here that this is pure supposition. No absolute conclusions can be drawn from these thoughts, and no absolute answer can be given to the question posed way back on page one.

 

While I've argued for the particularity and the power of corruption earlier, I suppose one of the points made in Pawns of Chaos (at least, I think it was that book) has to be kept in mind. The sorcerer on the planet, in a tired monologue, makes the point that the Imperium has a monopoly on valour and heroism (his thesis is based on the image of the Imperium fighting an endless battle it cannot win against all the lovely and overwhelming entropic forces that seek its ruin — not just Chaos, but all the threats it faces. But his logic, while interesting, is somewhat irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make). I believe that this is the point that those opposed to the idea of Chaos taking Sanguinus are clinging to: that just because the temptation to fall is exhaustively incessant in its pull, there is no guarantee of its success in this hypothetical case.

 

While this hypothetical Sanguinus may or may not resist the downward pull as Warmaster, there is no absolute guarantee he would either have fallen or, by the same token, given in. Horus' and Lorgar's fall, when the details of their story are presented, become understandable, and the reader can even sympathize with their actions. Both were noble when first found, and both ended up losing their claim to that adjective when they fell (certainly they gained equally impressive ones, like 'terrifying'), but only as their fictional path is traced, and details are presented like cobblestones. We know bits and pieces of Sanguinus' history, but to present a conclusion based on suppositions (which are, albeit, based on the presented image we now have) is fallacious.

 

So we simply don't know. He might have succumbed to the overwhelming pull of Chaos (one side of the argument, one I admit I lean towards), or he might have actually resisted the temptation by relying on the characteristics that are peculiar to the Imperium, which were within his character. Or he might even have been saved from falling by being swept from the board (and I do think it's telling that most of the Loyalist Primarchs are not actively present in the ongoings of the Imperium, while the Chaos ones have an active hand in events — though that's a different topic for another time)

[The Broker]

You can argue that the loyalist primarchs less tempted (though I don't think they all were) because Chaos wanted the Imperium to have a pyrhic victory. Go read Legion, it'll tell you about it.

 

I've read Legion, and I think it's important to remember that everything there is presented from the first person perspective and is therefore subjective.

 

And I'd argue that an Imperium which has lasted 10,000 years (and counting) can't really be considered pyrhic.

 

The Emperor wanted to preserve mankind after all, not necessarily himself and his sons. :tu:

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

The Emperor wanted to preserve mankind after all, not necessarily himself and his sons. :D

 

I'm sorry, but your entire post, but especially that statement is false.

 

Mankind 'needed' a strong leader to free them of the shackles of religion, according to the Emperor. While he may or may not want to preserve his sons (just look at what he planned for Magnus) he most definitely wanted to preserve himself.

 

So losing the founding architect, the sole person able to truly lead the Imperium for all eternity, who has all the answers as to why* and almost all of his sons isn't a pyrrhic victory? Not mention the Imperium as a whole is in shambles and it requires one of the few surviving primarchs complete attention to mantain and rebuild. Even now it is a shadow of it's former glory - the golden age of the Imprium, it's crusade to become the masters of the galaxy is replaced by a desperate defence against all the things that remained.

 

Legion was written from a third person point of view, and what I was talking about was a particular fact, not an opinion :D

 

*As I was typing this, I thought of Logan from Fable 3 :D

[The 13th Goat]

Again, Chaos is about the darker aspects of one's character - the rage of Angron and the bitterness of Perturabo, for example. Guillemann, Sanguinus and the like never allowed their darker aspects to take control of them, so they were effectively more immune to the arguments and machinations of Horus and Chaos.

 

That does not mean they would not have fallen. It just means it would have been either harder/different to persuade them.

 

I think that's the nail on the head, there.

 

Sanguinius was pure and noble. He could have resisted for some time, but we can never know if it would have been enough. I also notice no love for Horus here, lumping him in with Perturabo and Angron when before the Heresy he was arguably one of the most loyal. Until we see more of Sanguinius in the series we can't comment on his likelyhood to fall.

 

Of course, this thread will probably never end with both camps to stubborn to admit possabilities. :D

 

 

Think this thread will get closed soon for going circular.

[Brother Immolator]

I am currently rereading the HH novels and i have to say this:Horus was far from noble and humble.

I can retrace 20 instances before been wounded that he said:I am Horus,I am the warmaster,I,I,I,I....

Enough man you rule we know it...Too much of a humble.

 

Second horus was flawed in spirit.His ego and ambition was larger than Guillimans and matt wards compined.

Horus was not tempted by the dark powers.They used his inherent flawss by giving him visions and playing with his ego,

painting the greatest one among the primarchs and the emperor himself and then shattering him by revealing that he will be

forgotten.And if you will it was not the powers themselves but a single smart space marine that lead him to his fall.Errebus.

Horus was an egoist of the highest degree.

 

Now for Sanquinious.He was one the few if not the only primarch to not be jealous of horus been warmaster.That said horus himself.

The thirst and rage are a byproduct of his death,there is nothing to indicate he had them before.

Had he be chosen for a warmaster he would not have fall.He was not pridfull or an egoist,in fact most primarchs values his calm demeanor

and wise council.

 

There are a lot more other primarchs who would fall even amang the loyal ones.I count first and formost Guilliman and then none other than the Lion

himself.

[Legatus]

I am currently rereading the HH novels and i have to say this:Horus was far from noble and humble.

I can retrace 20 instances before been wounded that he said:I am Horus,I am the warmaster,I,I,I,I....

Enough man you rule we know it...Too much of a humble.

Several of the Index Astartes articles had described Horus' giant ego and thirst for glory, most notably the Index Astartes Raven Guard, where Corax is said to have disliked Horus' boastful manner and the way he used other Legions (especially the Raven Guard) to further his own glory, and the Index Astartes Luna Wolves, where the Legion is described as leaving other Legions such as the Ultramarines and the Iron Warriors behind to mop up so that the Luna Wolves could get to the next battle scene faster to earn more glory in combat. I am not sure where the rumour that Horus was a humble man originates from.

 

 

Second horus was flawed in spirit.His ego and ambition was larger than Guillimans and matt wards compined.

There are a lot more other primarchs who would fall even amang the loyal ones.I count first and formost Guilliman and then none other than the Lion himself.

With Guilliman it is the other way around. Other than in Horus' feverish ravings he is never described as having a big ego or seeking power. Quite the opposite, actually, and whenever such allegations are made I feel compelled to point that out.

 

One of the oldest quotes attributed to Roboute Guilliman is this one from the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines:

 

"They shall be pure of heart and strong of body, untainted by doubt and unsullied by self aggrandisement."

 

This is referenced in the novel "Angels of Darkness", where a character describes the difference between Horus and other Primarchs, especially Guilliman:

 

"Why was it that Horus turned to the powers of Chaos, perfect as he supposedly was, when Guilliman, his inferior, is still renowned ten thousand years later as the shining example of a primarch? It is because Guilliman had learned incorruptibility. For whatever reason, from whatever source, Guilliman had shaped his mind to make it impregnable to the lure of power and personal ambition. He said Space Marines were unsullied by self-aggrandisement, and he spoke truly for he took all Space Marines to be as worthy as himself."

 

Edit: It is also well known that after having established the reforms, and after reducing his own, massive Legion, which accounted for half of all Space Marines at that point, to only a single Chapter, Guilliman then proceeded to lead his single Chapter for the remaining hundred years. He could have assumed a position of much more power and influence, but led the Ultramarines Chapter instead.

 

In all the historical accounts it is described how Guilliman ensured that stable conditions were established on the world he conquered, and that positions of power were given to honest and capable people rather than the privileged. Unfavourable views on Guilliman usually come from cynical or disapproving characters, such as the afflicted Horus (while sane Horus favoured Guilliman a great deal in comparison), a humiliated Lorgar, or an ever suspicious Jonson. Ironically enough, this mirrors the opinions of Guilliman that can be found among the players, as only those who already don't like Guilliman attribute his actions such as becoming a High Lord, establishing the reforms, and uniting the Ultramar systems, to his own ego and to unpleasant characteristics of his, even though the background never describes his achievements or his motivations that way.

 

 

I had refered to Guilliman and Russ earlier specifically because of what we know about them indicates that they wouldn't have succumbed to the promises that were made to Horus.

[Yogi]

I always thought the first nail in Horus' coffin was the death of Sejanus. I think if Sejanus had been alive he wouldn't of fallen as he did. That's my interpretation from the novels.

 

As for Sangy it seems impossible to determine. He's fine at just being a primarch, but how would he respond to being Warmaster? We don't know. What circumstance would lead him to negative emotions so chaos could get in? We don't know. So at this point I'm thinking its a coin flip.

 

But

 

Then you have his refusal to horus' offer. Looks good on the resume. And that all the freaky mutated primarchs remained loyal, another good point on the resume.

 

So I'd weight that coin flip slighty to loyalty.

[Sazabi24]

I always thought the first nail in Horus' coffin was the death of Sejanus. I think if Sejanus had been alive he wouldn't of fallen as he did. That's my interpretation from the novels.

 

As for Sangy it seems impossible to determine. He's fine at just being a primarch, but how would he respond to being Warmaster? We don't know. What circumstance would lead him to negative emotions so chaos could get in? We don't know. So at this point I'm thinking its a coin flip.

 

But

 

Then you have his refusal to horus' offer. Looks good on the resume. And that all the freaky mutated primarchs remained loyal, another good point on the resume.

 

So I'd weight that coin flip slighty to loyalty.

 

Magnus? :tu:

[MagicMan]

Magnus wasn't really mutated...

 

 

 

In most of the recent stories he's described as having a scar/blank space where his other eye should have been, rather than a single eye in the middle of his forehead, cyclops style.

[Pulse]

In most of the recent stories he's described as having a scar/blank space where his other eye should have been, rather than a single eye in the middle of his forehead, cyclops style.

Indeed. :D

[Legatus]

He is also described as a red skinned giant I believe...

[MagicMan]

I don't think its literally blood red skin, more like Bronzed egyptian skin.

 

 

Native Americans were called the red man on account of their skin, but they weren't bright red.

 

 

And the giant thing, i suppose Magnus was one of the tallest primarchs. *shrug*