Sanguinius as Warmaster

[PyronusSouria]

If Sanguinius had gone traitor, all the Emperor would have had to do is slap him across the face and tell him to cut the crap.

[Sazabi24]

I don't think its literally blood red skin, more like Bronzed egyptian skin.

 

 

Native Americans were called the red man on account of their skin, but they weren't bright red.

 

 

And the giant thing, i suppose Magnus was one of the tallest primarchs. *shrug*

 

I'm pretty sure that 100% of the official art showcases him as a giant with crimson skin. He is literally bright red.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Magnus the RED

 

clues in the name :)

[Pulse]

If Sanguinius had gone traitor, all the Emperor would have had to do is slap him across the face and tell him to cut the crap.

Sanguinius: "MY BEAUTIFUL FACE!!!" *weep*

[The_son_of_Dorn]

does anyone else think pertuabo would of been a good choice for warmaster?

[Legionator]

does anyone else think pertuabo would of been a good choice for warmaster?

 

Being warmaster is not all about strategical skills. A Warmaster also should be a compromiser, a diplomat, an example for the other primarchs. Considering this, Perturabo would be one of the last choices for warmaster. Rogal Dorn, Sanguinius, Guilliman and maybe Fulgrim would be better candidates.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

ture but his cold logical mind would of surely been an assett, he could of used his more verbally and charisma gifted soldiers as ambassadors or diplomats.

[Sobansa]

A good leader does know how to delegate. If pertuabo realized that, he would have made a good warmaster. however, I do not think he would have realized that.

[Nomus Sardauk]

If Sanguinius had gone traitor, all the Emperor would have had to do is slap him across the face and tell him to cut the crap.

Sanguinius: "MY BEAUTIFUL FACE!!!" *weep*

 

No no no, you're thinking of the Fulgrim there. Poor Fulgrim, it's hard being the pretty Primarch.

 

IMO the position of Warmaster requires more than just being the mightiest warrior, the most cunning tactician or the most persuasive politician, you need to be able to motivate and get the very best out of those under you command as a leader. Thats one of the main reasons why Horus was chosen, he was extremely charismatic and knew how to influence his fellows in such a way that they would give it their all in whatever task he gave them.

[The Broker]

In the Iron Within, note how Dantioch is disenfranchised from Perturabo. It seems Perturabo made a mistake, blamed him and punished him. His brothers in the legion also held this failure against Dantioch.

 

Contrast this with how Horus deals with the stupidity of the Emperor's Children on Murder - they're chastised, but not to the point where they're dissatisfied with him. Note even how they sided with him in the Heresy despite this (a wound to their pride would be felt quite keenly by the EC IMO - and I could see them wanting to prove themselves against the offending legion).

 

Horus's great skill was a diplomat - he could tell people about their failures while keeping them onside, and considering how arrogant nearly all the Primarchs were, this is what made him the standout candidate for Warmaster, and also why Perturabo is completely unsuitable, a Primarch who managed to disenfranchise some of his own gene sons before he even turned traitor.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

what of in a twist of fate pertuabo warmed up to his adpoptive farther and learned how to love his own people and be a good leader...............i sense a alternate universe twist upon me :3

[Legionator]

what of in a twist of fate pertuabo warmed up to his adpoptive farther and learned how to love his own people and be a good leader...............i sense a alternate universe twist upon me :3

 

Then he would not be Perturabo, he would be Roboutte Guilliman 2.

[Pulse]

IMO the position of Warmaster requires more than just being the mightiest warrior, the most cunning tactician or the most persuasive politician, you need to be able to motivate and get the very best out of those under you command as a leader. Thats one of the main reasons why Horus was chosen, he was extremely charismatic and knew how to influence his fellows in such a way that they would give it their all in whatever task he gave them.

Got it spot on!

[Arkangilos]

But you all have to remember, Lorgar started it.

 

I don't think he would have turned because the situation would have been completely differant.

 

One, Sanguinius isn't portrayed as one to rely on people like Erebus. Also, Horus would not have been in the situation he was in (and Erebus wouldn't have been trying to tempt him), so he would have been clear and good, and could have been the one to advise Sanguinius in that case. (and again, I don't think Sanguinius would have listened to Erebus).

 

Also, Sanguinius is known as being one of the most humble primarchs, so pride would not have been an issue.

 

Three, Sanguinius understands the self sacrifice concept, and so the "save ourselves from teh plague by turning to nurgle" would not have worked. He would have rather fealt the pain, as the pain of his sons, than turn.

 

The "rage" as has been pointed out, was a divine rage that was brought about by the need to defend his brothers.

 

Also, I don't think Sanguinius would have listened to the lies of "The Emperor will enslave all of you." This I believe for several reasons, he could see the future, and he did not doubt his father.

 

As had also been pointed out, the flaw exploited on horus was his doubt, something Sanguinius lacked. Sanguinius was resolute.

 

Now, I don't know much about Horus's background, but I do know that Sanguinius saved his world, saved his people, gave a very, very humble speach, and ruled over his world for a long time before the Emperor came, and immediately gave his allegience to the Emperor.

 

Some one also mentioned Fulgrim. Well, Fulgrim himself did not turn, he was legitimately possessed. I can see something similar happening to Sanguinius, but I don't think that is what the gods wanted from the Warmaster, seeing as how Horus was not "possessed" (though he was augmented). I also believe that Sanguinius Self Sacrifice would had led to his own death before he allowed himself to do anything crazy.

 

Now, TBH, I think the Heresy was planned by the Emperor, and thats really why I believe he put Horus in charge.

 

I mean, think about it, he called Dorn back at the height of the Crusade to "fortify earth?" Why would he need to fortify it if they were about to win? Unless... a rebellion...

 

Also, that flashback that Erebus showed Horus when the Primarchs were scattered, and the Emperor said, "I knew you would come." Really? Like I said, I think he planned it.

[Marshal Rohr]

does anyone else think pertuabo would of been a good choice for warmaster?

 

NO

[Ace Debonair]

I dunno what would have to happen to make Sanguinius the Warmaster.

Apart from Horus maybe deciding that 'it should have been Sanguinius' earlier and handing the position over willingly.

 

As for the possibility of him falling to Chaos, that is a tricky thing to work out.

If faced with the exact same circumstances that Horus went through, Sanguinius would probably be right at the top of the list of guys who might resist Chaos.

 

I don't hold with the theory that it's impossible for him to fall, but the idea that it would take a lot longer and a good deal more subtlety is an appealing one.

[Pulse]

NO

Would expect that from a Dorn fan! :rolleyes:

 

I have to agree though, Perty would be a terrible Warmaster.

[The Broker]

Tbf, it's entirely possible that the Chaos Gods would've tried to corrupt Horus even if Sanguinius was made warmaster - he'd still be capable of corrupting significant portions of the Imperial Military.

 

It would just change "your father abandoned you to mind humanity while he becomes a God" to "your father passed you over for the recognition you deserve, and now he''s trying to become a God".

[MagicMan]

But his love for Sanguinius, and un-troubled mind would see him push away such infernal whisperings.

[Perrin]

His psyker powers are kind of a mutation, Vulkan (or at least his Legion) are mutated but thats from space marine genes reacting to radiation. Sanguinius is the most obvious mutant primarch, but i would say Magnus, Curze, possibly Lorgar, possibly Corax and Vulkan, maybe Manus because of his silver hands.

Can any Primarch actually have a mutation? They were all created to be unique and there's only twenty of them, i think you need a larger base population for something to be a mutation.

 

Slightly OT, but it was Sanguinius's legs that were broken by the Bloodthirster, not his back. He broke the Bloodthirsters back later on Terra I believe.

 

I'm following the "The Warmaster would have been corrupted regardless of who he was" path.

[Mr_Monstro]

Hi guys

 

There's a couple of things I’d like to add to this whole topic:

 

The first problem I have is, that I can't understand how anyone can compare Horus downfall with the testing Sanguinius has undergone.

 

Just to put those two things in the correct relation : Can any of you imagine even one of the Emperors sons, had he instead of Sanguinius been on Signus, strike a bargain with this bloodthirster ?

Was it really that great a deed to look an abomination of chaos in the eye and just say “No” ?

Personally I think no Primarch would have considered “turning to chaos” under such circumstances even for a second.

Do you think an – up to that point uncorrupted Horus, or Angron or Fulgrim, etc.pp would have been so much weaker as the noble Sanguinius ?

 

Signus was no test of loyalty, but one of mental strength – maybe some Primarchs would have suffered more than he did or wouldn't have been able to cope with the beating or the following massacre – as the angel did, but I think none would have fallen to Chaos or utterly lose their mind.

 

So on one side there is an ugly big demon mumbling something about “Power or death – choose now” and on the other side there is a scheme in which very powerful forces undertake various efforts to exploit the specific weaknesses and flaws of one character over a long period of time.

 

Not even slightly on the same level in my opinion.

 

The second thing I thought about was the following:

 

I am a big BA fan and love the fluff around the angel but Sanguinius the Noble – as we have read about him until now, only works (at least for me) in exactly the role he played.

The humble, noble, angelic archetype of all that is good about mankind, who sacrificed himself selflessly – was destined to die by his most beloved brothers hand, right from the start.

That's the tragic and the magic that makes him so interesting for me.

 

Sanguinius as I see him – pictured by the fluff until now, was to flat to be corrupted – a perfect supporting character in the grand scheme but very unauthentic if he wouldn't have died in a blaze of glory.

He has this “only the best die young” aura (that's why I like him) but what do we really know about his character ?

If he was the perfect uncorruptable avatar of mankind – then that's boring and uninteresting to me (I believe that nothing is ever perfect and flaws and imperfection are the salt in a good story)

 

But if he was – like all of the other Primarchs, the superHUMAN son of the mightiest being in the galaxy, a god among men and conqueror of worlds – if he had dreams and plans for the future, hopes and sorrows, and positive and negative emotions and probably his own cross to bear – then Chaos might have found a way to get him, given the right circumstances.

 

Maybe we will learn more about Sanguinius in books to come – right now he is just not as deep a character as Horus and therefore it's hard to compare them.

 

That's just my opinion,

Sorry for eventual mistakes and wrong-spellings as English is not my native tongue,

 

Cheers Monstro

[Nerdfest10]

Righto, back on topic (if anyone remembers)

 

Let's rephrase the question at hand and look at it from a different perspective. Would you cheat on your partner/lover? Stay with me. Obviously the answer is no. Even if you were sorely tempted? No. Ok, throw in a stressful job with an enormous responsibility and the temptation starts hitting overdrive. Still no? Alright we'll keep going. Stressful job where the lives of people you love and care about are in your hands, your current partner/lover is emotionally and physically unresponsive, you are in an altered frame of mind and the tempter is pulling out all the stops, feeding off your emotional state and then shows you proof (true or false, its unimportant) that the one you love and adore above all others is cheating on you and keeping secrets, sticking to their own agenda behind your back. See where I'm going?

 

It all comes down to strength of character. If Sanguinius was put in the EXACT set of circumstances as the Warmaster, then it would all boil down to that. Yes he was tempted, on multiple occasions, by the forces of Chaos, however he was never subjected to the intense and unrelenting manipulations coming at him from multiple angles that Horus faced for years. Also, we should look at why Horus was targeted in the first place. Is it because he was Warmaster? Initially yes. Or is it because, being first amongst equals, he had further to fall? Yes also. Or is it because out of all the Primarchs, mixed with decades of self experience, the Chaos Gods found in Horus a weak link in his own, personal strength of character? In my opinion, this is getting closer to the mark. I'm not suggesting that the Warmaster had a weak character, or was lacking character strength, I'm implying that his character, under extreme and exhaustive emotional and physical pressure, was susceptible to manipulation by nothing less than the power of four Gods.

 

Would Sanguinius have been able to withstand such an onslaught under the same circumstances? Who knows, but I have my doubts.

[The 13th Goat]

Just to put those two things in the correct relation : Can any of you imagine even one of the Emperors sons, had he instead of Sanguinius been on Signus, strike a bargain with this bloodthirster ?

Was it really that great a deed to look an abomination of chaos in the eye and just say “No” ?

Personally I think no Primarch would have considered “turning to chaos” under such circumstances even for a second.

Do you think an – up to that point uncorrupted Horus, or Angron or Fulgrim, etc.pp would have been so much weaker as the noble Sanguinius ?

 

I do agree with you here, but I would just like to point out Signus Prime happened after Davin. It was one of those battles like Calth, orchastrated by Horus and occupying the time when Sanguinius was still unaware of betrayel in the ranks of the Astartes. I believe after this he returned to warn the Imperium of Chaos, only to find out about Istvaan.

[Arkangilos]

Righto, back on topic (if anyone remembers)

 

Let's rephrase the question at hand and look at it from a different perspective. Would you cheat on your partner/lover? Stay with me. Obviously the answer is no. Even if you were sorely tempted? No. Ok, throw in a stressful job with an enormous responsibility and the temptation starts hitting overdrive. Still no? Alright we'll keep going. Stressful job where the lives of people you love and care about are in your hands, your current partner/lover is emotionally and physically unresponsive, you are in an altered frame of mind and the tempter is pulling out all the stops, feeding off your emotional state and then shows you proof (true or false, its unimportant) that the one you love and adore above all others is cheating on you and keeping secrets, sticking to their own agenda behind your back. See where I'm going?

 

It all comes down to strength of character. If Sanguinius was put in the EXACT set of circumstances as the Warmaster, then it would all boil down to that. Yes he was tempted, on multiple occasions, by the forces of Chaos, however he was never subjected to the intense and unrelenting manipulations coming at him from multiple angles that Horus faced for years. Also, we should look at why Horus was targeted in the first place. Is it because he was Warmaster? Initially yes. Or is it because, being first amongst equals, he had further to fall? Yes also. Or is it because out of all the Primarchs, mixed with decades of self experience, the Chaos Gods found in Horus a weak link in his own, personal strength of character? In my opinion, this is getting closer to the mark. I'm not suggesting that the Warmaster had a weak character, or was lacking character strength, I'm implying that his character, under extreme and exhaustive emotional and physical pressure, was susceptible to manipulation by nothing less than the power of four Gods.

 

Would Sanguinius have been able to withstand such an onslaught under the same circumstances? Who knows, but I have my doubts.

 

I still say no. Under no cercumstances would I cheat or fall down to such temptations, and I am but a man. Same goes with Sanguinius, I think he, above all primarchs, would be the least succeptable to corruption. I see him sort of as the "Jesus" of 40k (how he sacrificed himself known he was going to die, being very benevolent, all of that), and as such I just can not see him falling to tempations.

[Serraphim]

Given the time a resources anyone would fall to chaos, Primarch or not. But I do not think that if Sang was Warmaster he would have fallen in time for Chaos to make as big of an impact as Horus did. And we have to remember that Sang was able to see his future which makes him a lot harder to corrupt (and I know that Tzeentch got to Magnus via his abilities, but Magnus was also less humble than the Angel).

 

I think the real question here is not would the Angel have fallen, but who Chaos would have focused on instead? It did take a lot of effort on their part to turn Horus, something that they couldnt spread to every primarch.