jaxjace Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 my question is this, how did the traitors lose!? they had at least 7 full non degenerate legions you can even take off the nightlords for being unstable. making that 6 horus had 8 full crusade fleets with him. a full half of the imperial army AND FLEET. AND a full half of the titans the loyalists had a shiny fortress, a moon cannon. a deffence fleet probably a hundred times that of a regular planet 3 legions, probably around a million guard units. and the custodes. and Horus was the best military tactician of the age i mean what the hell. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 T'was the power of plot that saved the emperor, that and well... the shiny fortress was very shiny :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2805961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxjace Posted June 29, 2011 Author Share Posted June 29, 2011 hahaha well i guess when you factor in the old deffencive rule. " if a D-Fence force has a good position and is equal to an O-fence force it will take 2x as many of the O to take out the D also, a shiny fortress. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2805965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Well, to answer one of your points, yeah, Horus was a genius, but Rogal Dorn and Sanguinas weren't exactly noobs or dummies, and there was this guy named the Emperor who pulled off (kinda) a pretty big Hail Mary play at the end of the Siege. Also, with the Imperial Palace, the loyalists held the higher ground. If disappointing prequels have taught us nothing else, it's that regardless of whatever else you know of a situation or what has just gone before, higher ground provides an unbeatable advantage: http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/compl...29533445000.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2805988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Horus's forces now relied on deamonic entities and supernatural powers, also the forces of the space wolves and the biggest still the ultramarines (whos number equal half of the over all loyalist legions) were on the way to break the siege. Horus may of won if he had utilised his tactical genius, retreated and come back to fight in even more force but instead he fell to the sin of pride and challenged the big Cheese himself to one on one combat. thusly when he died a future 10,000 years of civil war between Horus and the big E was prematurely finished. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2806012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Horus's forces now relied on deamonic entities and supernatural powers, also the forces of the space wolves and the biggest still the ultramarines (whos number equal half of the over all loyalist legions) were on the way to break the siege. Then add the Dark Angels and Space Wolves to that number and Horus would have quickly found himself outnumbered and outgunned. His hand was forced. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2806122 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Agreed with Codicer. They would have won if time was on their side. May have taking a long time but they would have defeated the beleagured forces. But they didnt have time. The Lion and the Wolf King were en route. (Can't remember the ultra status. They probably would have come a little later than the wolvses and dark angels. They would have been caught in siege sandwich. He gambled, trying to cut the head off the enemy forces and almost won, but still lost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2806126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 it was Horus's favured tactic after all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2806127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Even adding the Ultras, Dark Angels and Wolves to the Blood Angels, White Scars and Fists already in situ the traitors still should have had a far superior force. I'm not sure why it wasn't possible for Horus to leave a couple of Legions to hold the spaceports and take the rest of his forces out to deal with the incoming reinforcements. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2806227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Even adding the Ultras, Dark Angels and Wolves to the Blood Angels, White Scars and Fists already in situ the traitors still should have had a far superior force. I'm not sure why it wasn't possible for Horus to leave a couple of Legions to hold the spaceports and take the rest of his forces out to deal with the incoming reinforcements. That might have worked had the White Scars not taken one space port and Horus almost lost the other one. They were already having problems trying to get troops on and off of the planet when they got word of the other loyalists heading for them. Also, remember that the Space Wolves were a legion who were intended to be space marine killers and the Ultramarines were the largest of all the legions. Even mauled by the previous conflicts they were in they would have been a considerable force. The Wolves had also taken out the Alpha Legion by this point and the Night Lords were at the other end of the galaxy trying to prevent further reinforcements for heading for Terra by attacking Imperial strongholds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2806238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 and Horus was the best military tactician of the age i mean what the hell. According to Horus Rising Rogal Dorn possessed the finest tactical acumen and he was directing the defense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2806240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 It's because they didn't just have to beat the defending Legions, they had to beat the defending Legions who were inside a fortress the size of a continent that was designed by Rogal Dorn himself. Also, the Traitors didn't have all their Legions there either. The Night Lords were mostly harassing the Dark Angels, half the Word Bearers were attacking the Ultramarines, and the Alpha Legion were harassing the Dark Angels and Space Wolves, while the Thousand Sons were still completely mauled from the Fall of Prospero. You then have the fact that the entire population of Terra would have been armed for the Siege, in addition to the Imperial Army and Titan Legions. The other thing to remember is that the Traitors had breached the Palace when Horus initiated his gambit. In the short time they were there, they managed to breach the single-most heavily defended installation in the galaxy, but the Palace was still the size of a continent, so it would still take time to finish, time that Horus didn't have. Yes, he had the forces to win against what was there, but given he would struggle against the additional reinforcements. Lastly, we have to remember that Horus couldn't afford to win a phyrric victory. Once he captured Terra, he wasn't guaranteed that the rest of the galaxy would simply surrender. The Salamanders, Raven Guard and Iron Hands were still out there, in addition to whatever worlds would resist him, as well as all the Xenos. He needed to maintain his forces so as to still be able to win the wider war. Capturing Terra means nothing if he lost the galaxy straight after that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2806242 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Even adding the Ultras, Dark Angels and Wolves to the Blood Angels, White Scars and Fists already in situ the traitors still should have had a far superior force. I'm not sure why it wasn't possible for Horus to leave a couple of Legions to hold the spaceports and take the rest of his forces out to deal with the incoming reinforcements. Horus did actually have forces slowing the loyalists, it just didn't stop them. The Ultras beat the Word Bearers at Calth, Space Wolves fought through the Alpha Legion (according to latest fluff) and the Dark Angels, according to Caerolion there, were fighting the Night Lords. The Traitors really did not have a superior force: Each of the traitor legions had to deal with loyalist elements within their own ranks, so deplete not only the loyalists that defected, such as the Emperor's Children, World Eaters, and Death Guard elements at Istvaan (the virus bombed one, not the drop site one) or the Iron Warriors at that upside down fortress (name escapes me right now) in the latest HH anthology book, but the forces expended dealing with the loyalists as well. Even the Word Bearers had to "deal" with some of their brethren who did not drink the Chaos-flavored kool-aid, as mentioned in The First Heretic. So their numerical advantage, despite taking out 2 and change of loyalist legions of the Salamanders, Raven Guard, and Iron Hands, was not very pronounced. In quality, the forces are roughly equivalent. What mattered most was not force capacity or quality, but position. Horus was engaged in a siege. Sieges are costly and favor the defender in most circumstances. He had already hurled his forces at the walls of Terra for nearly two months before trying his shield dropping gambit. The traitors payed with blood for every step and had suffered substantial casualties. All of his forces were dedicated to getting into the palace, it seems likely nothing he could have spare would have been able to stop the (relatively) freshly supplied and armed forces of the loyalists coming after him. Even if Horus' forces could have slowed or stopped the initial loyalist reinforcements, Horus would have been stuck between the anvil of the palace and the hammer of the newly arrived loyalists with no dug in defenses of particular merit, no supply lines, and no where to run. He took a gambit using his favored tactic which seemed to be the best bet. Just didn't turn out well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2806243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutteman Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Ultramarine were the biggest Legion by far. And you forget that several of the Legions Horus has left to him are heavily depleted. For example the World Eaters were reduced to about half strength in the early stages. And I do believe a good chunk of the Word Bearers weren't present. And we're not just talking about a Shiny Fortress. We're talking about the Imperial Palace, which has been strengthened over several years by Dorn, remember the comment Horus once made "If ever I laid siege to fortress held by you, it would be war without end. The best in offence against the best in defence". Horus also has to contend with the fact that certain of his troops (Cough Emperor's Children Cough) have got bored and gone off to play with the locals. So overall Horus isn't an idiot. And really he did have a rather tough task ahead Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2806246 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don the Oiler Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 If he had just tried to destroy Terra, i agree, shouldn't have been a huge problem. What did Horus need it for? There are no resources, the Webway is of no relevance when you're allied to the Powers of Chaos and i doubt they had use for its extensive bureaucracy (although bureaucracy does seem to be a product of Chaos sometimes). He had Mars, should've been much more important than Terra. Don't know why this piece of rock is always a sacrosanct shrine in most pieces of fiction. Yeah yeah, i know, cradle of man, etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2806269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Yeah yeah, i know, cradle of man, etc. Blowing up the capital of the Empire you are trying usurp is a woefully stupid thing to do. Mars was not the center of the Imperium. It was a sister planet and the next best thing...but it was the center of the Mechanicum, not Imperium. Horus wanted to TAKE the Throne not BLOW UP the Throne. Horus whole rhetoric was the rightful succession of the son to take his father's place and the active general to take the place of an uncaring commander. The Chaos Gods may not have cared it it all got blown to scrap and back but Horus and the traitor Primarchs...well, except maybe Angron...want to rule the Imperium at this point in time and don't want the throneworld obliterated. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2806295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 It's symbolic. Horus wanted to overthrow the Imperium, and what better way to do it in the hearts and minds of the wider Imperium than to occupy the Imperial Palace? Sure, you could just blow it up from orbit, but that doesn't have the same psychological impact. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2806304 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Horus also wanted to finish off the Emperor personally. What better way to show the Galaxy who is the mightiest than that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2806323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 A bit of role-playing here...I am no longer The King of One Thousand Heathens. I am now the Warmaster of One Trillion Heathens... Blow up Terra? Nah. The Emperor needs to die the old fasioned way, with my blade in his throat. Instead, I virus bomb the planet, and set it on fire. Yep, the Life-Eater. 'Istvaan III part 2.' The Imperial Palace is probably far too well defended, shield-wise and the like, to be bothered by the atmo-scorching firestorm, but the rest of the planet would be a cinder. Why do this? A few reasons. One, with any luck, a bunch of loyalists, hopefully some Legionaries, maybe (with some super luck and good timing) even a good chunk of the White Scars, would be toast. Two, the Palace is now the only focus of my forces. Which leads straight into the thrid reason, now Fulgrim/Daemon and his legion has no other option other than to assault the palace if they want some play-things to toy with. A whole other Legion now devoting it's time where it's supposed to be. Ahhh, much better... :P -role play off- Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2806437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Oops but Warmaster of One Trillion Heathens has blown up his Daemons fuel source, eliminated any ability to forage for supplies that are not well protected and in Loyalist hands, and you now have a BORED Fulgrim/Daemon and his hedonistic Legion on your hands who will likely take the easier and spiteful path and prey on their nominal "allies," whether serfs, allied humans, or even unwary battle brothers for sport. Actually, was such an option viable or was it going to be another "Angron jumping down in front of the bombardment" situation? There is also the question of concentration of force: Would an advantage be gained by eliminating everything else, with the Sky Fortress now no longer needed to send troops hither and thither? Could the arguably greater numbers of the Traitors be brought to bear with any greater efficiency? Actually I'm curious...how well protected are those Spaceports? I cannot recall it specifying in any of the fluff. What effects would such a bombing have? None, minimal, major? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2806474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 The Gods know this is 'the big one', and there is plenty of soul fuel right inside those walls. With all of the Trator legion's strengths now pointed at one target, instead of various targets all over the place, the walls will fall that much faster. I don't need Daemons yet, save the warp powers for inside the walls for maximum terror. As for supplies, I just spent seven years on my way here gathering resources and conquering...pretty sure I'm well stocked, especially since Mars has my back. Free corrupt Titans, anyone? Fulgrim? Pfft, the daemon inside him has already acknowledged Horus's (oops, I mean my :P ) position as Chosen of all four Gods. He'll suck it up, and enjoy it, as long as he gets to terrorize the palace when the walls fall. Can more traitors be brought to bear? Heck yeah, they can. I own the freakin' skies now, dude... I can gunship / droppod whoever, whereever. :D As for the last question, possibly well damaged, in my opinion, if not gone entirely. A apocalyptic firestorm of that size would strain even the Palace's shield generators, they'd have to draw from somewhere else to keep 'em up. Buh-bye, Lions Gate Spaceport... Or, there's always the possibility that I would make the worst Warmaster ever... :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2806492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobansa Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 If I was in horus's place going for a symbolic/decapitation strike I would have had all of my fire power concentrated on the center of the imperial palace. When the shields broke I would my troops with pods into the now flat spot in the middle of the palace and fought outwards. The flat spot would be as close to the throne room as possible without damaging the throne room. I would flatten any area that posed a threat to my main battle area from orbit and reinforce the ground forces as necessary. When we are about to breach the throne room I would descend with all of the primarchs that I have with me. I would push with all my might to the throne room and force the confrontation there. The pictures of me taking the throne room would be instantly distributed as far and wide as possible. With luck I would kill the big E too. If at that point I could still not hold terra I would abandon it and merely state that my orders come from terra. Days 1-30 would be mostly the same but days 31-55 would have gone differently under my plan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2806512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Atticus Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Horus was on the verge of victory when he was defeated. However, i don't think his advantage was a big as suggested. Some of this has been mentioned before but: - The Ultramarines were by far the biggest Legion and probably ahd double any other Chapter. - The Imperial Fists, the masters of defending, were in the virtually impenetrable fortress and "one free man defending his home is more powerful then ten hired soldiers. The Crusades taught me that." (Ok it's not actually a GW Crusdades reference, but a Robin Hood Crusades reference but it still applies). - Horus was a great tactician but he wasn't just up against one opponent. He had to deal with tactics from several different Primarchs, including the Imperial Fist shaped wall and the White Scars hit and run tactics - The arrival of Imperial backup probably would have resulted in a drawn out stalemate buying time for areas of the Imperium to regroup and rebuild forces. - Horus wasn't killed in a huge battle, but rather a risky suprise skirmish led by a handful of the Emperor's finest. It's not like his forces were wiped by a mass Blood Angels attack force. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2806527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 But horus did win his patrons got what they wanted from him. So what if he died 9 legions and the galaxy at war with itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2806725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Exactly. The fact that the Ultras, Angels and Wolves were on the way was a moot point. All Horus wanted to do, all that he could think of, was killing his father. Frankly, I have a funny feeling he had no true plans past that. The Death of the Emperor would have been enough to kill humanity. That he's on life support just means that the Gods have gotten a chance to draw out the suffering of mankind much longer...tasty tasty. @Gaius: Yep, Dorn was the man when it came to defense...And perturabo was his polar opposite. And both were dang good at what they did. Now add in the rest of the traitor primarchs, plus the two additional loyalist primarchs. Horus's men were no 'hired men' bro. They were ridiculously devouted to ending the False Emperor's reign, vicious warriors twisted into monsters each. Also, saying that Horus had to deal with tactics from two different Primarchs is moot...they had to deal with as many as eight, man. Each of 'em experts at what they do. That the Blood Angels, Fists and Scars held out as long as they did is super-awesome credit to them, but the fact was that if Horus hadn't dropped the shields, the loyalists were boned by attrition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233154-if-i-was-the-warmaster-ida-won/#findComment-2806755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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