Brother-Librarian Hesperos Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 So a question arose within my gaming group the other day. Is the Inner Circle based solely in the dark angels or does it encompass the entirety of the unforgiven? Is it possible to get references as well? If it is the unforgiven, hence grand masters and supreme grand master, would a senior member of the Inner circle be able to order some one not of their direct chapter but still in the unforgiven? If so would it be with anything or matters pertaining to "faith" or knowledge of the fallen etc. Thanks for your input and as always... Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Check out p.11 of the current Codex. Especially in the box in the bottom right... I think you'll find that the inner Circle does indeed span accross all Unforgiven chapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Darius Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Check out p.11 of the current Codex. Especially in the box in the bottom right... I think you'll find that the inner Circle does indeed span accross all Unforgiven chapters. Correct. Across all of the unforgiven. Although when it comes to one chapter giving orders to another, I think its pretty much a 'first among equals kind of thing. There is one notable exception and that would be Azrael, who sits at the head of all of the unforgiven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Also, there is probably a pretty good amount of respect between all the Unforgiven chapters, so it is unlikely that a Master/Grand Master of one chapter would try to directly order forces from another chapter to do something, especially when they may not know the entire situation. It seems more likely that if the Guardians of the Covenant have forces in the area of Rigelus III and the Disciples of Caliban uncover information that leads their Grand Master to believe there may be a Fallen operating in the Rigelus system, they will probably pass that information along to the Guardians with the suggestion that they provide some portion of their men to perform a recon-in-force while the Disciples dispatch forces to join with or take over for the Guardians upon arrival. Considering the nature of the Unforgiven, it is likely that the Guardians would heed this advice, but they would have to weigh it against what they are currently doing, etc. It doesn't seem that there is a rigid command structure for the Inner Circle, but likely it is more of a "heed the words and wisdom of those set higher than you," and the higher they are, the more weight their information should carry. Not doing so is probably frowned upon and would probably get you re-examined as to whether the librarians may have made a mistake in allowing your promotion into the Inner Circle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Librarian Hesperos Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Awesome, i am pretty ashamed to say i did not read through our codex a little more when this question arose, pretty sad.... I do appreciate your input and i would have to say i agree with you about only azrael being above the rest, from what i can tell as well it seems that the inner circle are the ad hoc commanders if they are the only one there. I must say i do believe the DA must be the most intriguing and thought provoking chapter out there, again, thanks for your help Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Neo Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 the command structure works in the same way as different regiments of the british army when requied. i.e. you may be a corporal in the signals but a sergeant from the engineers can give you orders but your captain can give that sergeant orders and so on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 only immune chapter is the angels of absolution is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Don't think it works in the way a military chain of command works at all. That would be the case for different companies within the same chapter, but it would be very odd to see a Master from the Angels of Vengeance walk in and just start ordering around a bunch of squads of the Disciples of Caliban without some prior discussion of operational details with the DoC's Master/Grand Master. Also, there's a certain amount of respect that must be given even in the military about ordering around another sergeant's squad, especially when you aren't even in their same regiment, unless they are doing something flagrant, so I think that something very similar would probably work within the Unforgiven chapters as well. As far as I can tell, just because the Angels of Absolution don't feel that they are necessarily "damned" by the Fallen, they still seek to mete out punishment and vengeance upon them. This, along with their similarity to the Dark Angels and the tight cooperation between the two chapters, indicates to me that they would take just as much a part in the organization and hunt for the Fallen as directed by the Dark Angels Supreme Grand Master as any of the other Unforgiven chapters. I don't think that they are "exempt." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I have always had a vision of all the unforigiving inner circel gathering in one place every hundred years or so just to compare notes cross out names from the book of the fallen and place any info they think might be of worth on the tabel so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 only immune chapter is the angels of absolution is it not? Immune? They hunt the fallen like any other Unforgiven... They do not beleive they carry any guilt (unlike the rest of the Unforgiven) but they still beleive the Fallen should be rounded up and made to repent or die - or both!!! Much like Bryan Blaire put it. The fact of the matter is that this line of background in not explored enough. We just don't know how this works exactly. We have the basic view point that all Unforgiven co-operate in their Hunt of fallen but how this co-operation works is unclear... the command structure works in the same way as different regiments of the british army when requied. i.e. you may be a corporal in the signals but a sergeant from the engineers can give you orders but your captain can give that sergeant orders and so on Could be... though I personally see this having problems explaing to the subordinates that have no idea about the fallen why they should follow direct orders from an officer of another Chapter because unlike the British Army (any Army?) not all members of the individual chapters understand they are one body. Don't think it works in the way a military chain of command works at all. That would be the case for different companies within the same chapter, but it would be very odd to see a Master from the Angels of Vengeance walk in and just start ordering around a bunch of squads of the Disciples of Caliban without some prior discussion of operational details with the DoC's Master/Grand Master. Also, there's a certain amount of respect that must be given even in the military about ordering around another sergeant's squad, especially when you aren't even in their same regiment, unless they are doing something flagrant, so I think that something very similar would probably work within the Unforgiven chapters as well. Mostly agree with that really... it makes sense to co-operate in the higher echelons but not on a trooper level. I have always had a vision of all the unforigiving inner circel gathering in one place every hundred years or so just to compare notes cross out names from the book of the fallen and place any info they think might be of worth on the tabel so to speak. Could be... Or it could be every quarter or every week or be in constant co-operation - we just don't know. Or it could be that some Unforgiven chapters co-operate on a regular basis while others act more independently and just "compare notes" once in a while... I personally like to think that the Inner Circle holds the Unforgiven in an iron grip and nothing happens randomly. Nothing is ever left to chance. Add "control freaks" to the rest of the Unforgiven attributes :) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODM Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 According to info from the last few codex versions... The Successor Grand Masters are frequently seen on the Rock, the Dark Angels’ Fortress Monastery, as they visit for summit meetings to consult and coordinate their efforts. The Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels, currently Azrael, sits at the head of the Inner Circle and is master to all the other Supreme Grand Masters of the Unforgiven. From this position he orchestrates the Hunt across the Chapters, explaining why many of the Unforgiven Chapters have been recorded fighting side by side, in joint strike forces when the Fallen are involved expected. As for the Angels of Absolution, not only are they not exempt from this, they are one of the most closely linked with the DA, as mentioned in the codex and the Seige of Vraks Forgeworld books. SPOILER At the final stages of the war, the Dark Angels were unavailable for a mission to capture a Fallen commander that they had missed out on capturing 9 years before. Azrael turned to the Angels of Absolution and they took the mission in place of the Dark Angels. An Interrogator Chaplain from the Dark Angels was attached to the mission, which was under the command of an Angels of Absolution 1st Company Master and included roughly 3 companies of marines plus armored support. It's a pretty detailed story reminscient of the ones in the codex. But it has a few extra details. Azrael and the Dark Angels began the Hunt for this particular Fallen 9 years before. They lost him and withdrew with their other objectives met, but kept intelligence reports on the Vraks progress for a decade. At the right time, Azrael sends a large Angels of Absolution force to capture one of the Fallen. He also attaches one of his Interrogator-Chaplains along, who actually assumes control of the force when the Angels of Absolution's 1st Company Master is killed. Once the Fallen is captured, the Chaplain withdraws the entire Angels of Absolution strikeforce along with their prize, who is returned to the Rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Degas Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Is that from one of the imperial armour books? I always pictured the inner circle developing from the legions original command structure, each GM being a legions chapter commander, with the lions second in command taking the role of SGM regardless of what sucessor chapter he was from. The AoA I picture as being the unapologetic loyalists, the defiant one who thinks they should come clean and admit the fall, tell the imperium they blew up thier own planet to defend humanity from the taint and they are totally loyal without question but ultimatly realisng the consequences of this for the full legion etc so they add a nice dynamic to the legion theme. oh and the GM of the RW and DW are responsible for all the DW and RW, each other chapter having an master who reports to the chapter GM and the GM of the DW regardless of chapter. Does that ake sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Is that from one of the imperial armour books? I always pictured the inner circle developing from the legions original command structure, each GM being a legions chapter commander, with the lions second in command taking the role of SGM regardless of what sucessor chapter he was from. The AoA I picture as being the unapologetic loyalists, the defiant one who thinks they should come clean and admit the fall, tell the imperium they blew up thier own planet to defend humanity from the taint and they are totally loyal without question but ultimatly realisng the consequences of this for the full legion etc so they add a nice dynamic to the legion theme. oh and the GM of the RW and DW are responsible for all the DW and RW, each other chapter having an master who reports to the chapter GM and the GM of the DW regardless of chapter. Does that ake sense? It is from Vraks... Your view of the Inner Circle coincides with mine... In fact that's pretty much how it was formed. I wish it was more explicitly stated that this is how it still is. (I understand it to be so but more light should be shed - or maybe not :rolleyes: ) BTW the "Captains" of the DW and the RW are Masters not Grand Masters. However in the current codex in the description of Belial although it mentions he is the Master of DW (even in the title of the description) in a different point it is mentioned he is a Grand Master. GW oversight? Don't know... EDIT: typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Degas Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Thanks, didnt know if it was from vraks or some battle/HH gubbins I havent got around to reading yet. I dont think they should define it, just leave it a bit sketchy so folk can debate it on the inernet....oh... Either way I can see there being a GM of the RW/DW who sits on the inner circle with masters at another chapters 1 step removed. Sounds kind of cool and reinforces the legion theme if Sam and Bel arent GM then who is..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brennus Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 It is from Vraks... I highly recommend getting the Siege of Vraks books, if you can afford them. It is both an excellent example of the different chapters working together towards a shared goal, and the third book features several color plates with Angels of Absolution iconography. They are expensive, though (as are any Forge World books). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 It all boils down to this in the end:The DA and their succesors are the last loyalist legion(lets dont start with the Alpha cause thats another story ok?). Through necessity the DA might have been devided,but by forming the inner circle they gave Gillymans little book the finger using it only as a masqurade to pacify the imperiums angry stares. Havent read siege of vraks 3 yet,but the fact that the marines followed the orders of the chaplain were the company master fell speaks volumes of the unity of the chapters,wether the rank and file troops know or not about the fallen.I know he was a chaplain but lets face it.If three ultramarine or even imperial fist companies were in the same situation i find it difficult that they would follow an officer from another chapter. I believe the unity of the unforgiven chapters is something that GW would do well to invest time and persue and give us more fluff about.Its a great concept. Asides from the Guardians of the Covenant we dont know the homeworlds of the rest of the succesors,what do you think about this?Did the inner circle thought best to have all the chapters fleet bound to give them better mobility? The diciples of Caliban are a fleet based chapter for example... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODM Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I agree with this. The Inner Circle, headed by the Supreme Grand Master, are the last Legion of loyalist marines. With at least 8 named Chapters, the Dark Angels legion still functions, albeit in secret from the rest of the Imperium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Degas Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 pretty much how I see it. I like the idea of marines working through the circles and gradually learning exactly how big the DA really are and maybe even thier secret mission.... In terms of bases I would expect the DA to have a few planets they recruit from and keep a presence on but everyone needs to be stationed on the rock at some part as part of their indoctrination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 There are the Black Templars too,they too are more than 10k marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 There are the Black Templars too,they too are more than 10k marines. But they are a just Chapter. A fat one but a Chapter nonetheless... That's how they see themselves, that's how it is. Only one group can claim they are a Legion (of sorts) and this is the Unforgiven. :) EDIT: Actually the average number of BTs (as per Codex) is 5-6,000 although at times could be much higher and close to the number you mention... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Well i dont know exactly but the statement from their own codex:Should they ever unite their forces and fight as a chapter they would be a threat that the imperium itself might not be able to contain or somesuch.That means they are a lot of them.Plus lets not forget the fleet theyll be able to amass. I dont say its a DA vs BT case,but from my view the BT and the DA are the truest SM Legions that get their st done.Truth the BT are a second founding chapter but to me they are the true succesors of Dorn(sorry fists you might be so awesome but those guys are x10 better than you). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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