Puddling of paint

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Hello all,

 

When painting a section of a mini, it is common to paint all of that section, and so the 'edges' of the paint go to the edges of the mini. No possible problem here.

 

What happens if I wish to paint a rectangle. The first coat is to the edges, just like above.

The second coat is to be a smaller rectangle, so the perimeter is uncovered.

If I am painting with watered down paint, that second coat 'puddles' when dry and it leaves something like a ring around the edge of that smaller triangle.

The ring is darker than the rest of the second coat.

 

How do I avoid this ring?

Use less water in my paint?

 

What if I am painting with something that is supposed to be watery, like a GW wash or an ink?

 

Is there an additive that stops this puddle ring?

 

Thank you for your wisdom, in advance :)

[Brother Nihm]

Use less water in my paint

Is my guess.

Or, wipe off more paint on a tissue than usual before applying.

[winterdyne]

You need to use less paint on your brush, and not have a sharp inner edge where you've lined it. Pull paint from the inside to the outside, then when painting the inside reverse the stroke.

[darth_giles]

I've found GW paints are already thinned enough. You'd probably be better using it straight out of the bottle.

[winterdyne]

I've found GW paints are already thinned enough. You'd probably be better using it straight out of the bottle.

 

No. They're not. Always use a palette, always add a little water, and check the consistency / behaviour before you start using the paint.

[thade]

I've found GW paints are already thinned enough. You'd probably be better using it straight out of the bottle.

 

No. They're not. Always use a palette, always add a little water, and check the consistency / behaviour before you start using the paint.

I mean, it depends on the paint (and it's not always consistent for a given color). For instance, I've found I can virtually always paint right from the pot with the silver metals and - for spot work/edging most other colors. For large areas (i.e. not a spot, but an entire armor segment), I definitely add water.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I've found GW paints are already thinned enough. You'd probably be better using it straight out of the bottle.

 

NAUGHTY!

 

I've found GW paints are already thinned enough. You'd probably be better using it straight out of the bottle.

 

No. They're not. Always use a palette, always add a little water, and check the consistency / behaviour before you start using the paint.

 

Good fellow :blink:

.

:eek

 

+++

 

With metals, Thade, they flow much more nicely watered than from the pot, even when painting small small things.

 

If you can use a wet palette, you will notice a smooth gliding quality to your metallics. And GW does have nice metallic paint, so that is no slur on them.

 

+++

 

I will try both these things, Nihm and Winterdyne.

 

Nihm was yours the 'lightning tutorial' here on B&C? It has helped me try to emulate Ap0k's purple power weapons.

The pre-dotting is a simple idea, yet one that directs where you are going to paint instead of trying to do it on the fly. Have a plan before action works well. Thank you.

 

I have been on the PP forum, and the PP painter who answers questions said about 'mixing medium' to stop the rings.

*thinks about ordering some*

[darth_giles]

No. They're not. Always use a palette, always add a little water, and check the consistency / behaviour before you start using the paint.

Then you won't have enough opacity to do anything meaningful, especially over black primer. You'll waste time waiting for your overly-watered paints to dry, and then you'll waste more applying coat after coat. Plus wasting the paint that's going to be drying out on your palette while you wait for each coat to dry and have problems with it behaving more like a wash than a paint, as the OP has discovered.

 

I've had this discussion before, tried it before, and gotten the same bad results. If you want to spend a month painting one figure that's fine by me. There won't be any meaningful difference in our results.

[winterdyne]

No. They're not. Always use a palette, always add a little water, and check the consistency / behaviour before you start using the paint.

Then you won't have enough opacity to do anything meaningful, especially over black primer. You'll waste time waiting for your overly-watered paints to dry, and then you'll waste more applying coat after coat. Plus wasting the paint that's going to be drying out on your palette while you wait for each coat to dry and have problems with it behaving more like a wash than a paint, as the OP has discovered.

 

I've had this discussion before, tried it before, and gotten the same bad results. If you want to spend a month painting one figure that's fine by me. There won't be any meaningful difference in our results.

 

Having looked for models by you in the gallery / forums, I think I'll take my results or bet on my experience over yours. Not meaning to sound arrogant (there are better painters than me around here), but you're offering bad advice and dismissing what's frankly correct because 'it didn't work for you'.

 

'Behaving more like a wash than a paint' is a symptom of poor / inexperienced brush control. The difference is primarily in application and flow behaviour - a thin paint, applied thinly will not flow much from where it's put (surface tension keeps it there). Over-watering can be an issue in that you'll have to use more coats, but under-watering will almost always result in a rough result which won't take later techniques (specifically glazes and high-flow washing) well. In terms of drying time for thin paints / multiple coats there are a couple of tricks commonly used - a hairdryer or an incandescent bulb desk light. Stick the model relatively close to a 40W bulb for 30 seconds and the paint is dry enough for the next coat. Don't put your palette there, obviously.

 

As for 'wasting paint'? Seriously, get a grip. The wastage of paint from having a pot open and gunk building up around and ruining the seal is far more from opening, putting a dab on a (wet these days) palette and shutting the pot and putting it away. Hell I waste more paint by spazzing out and knocking over a pot I'm working with... or turning the airbrush over without the cup lid on.

 

I'll grant you a couple of exceptions - washes and varnishes - I quite often use these straight from the pot.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

So I have been talking to a studio painter, and she spoke about how P3's "mixing medium" to thin out paints instead of water, an the mixing medium stops the forming of paint rings :(

 

She also said the "thinner medium" and "glaze medium" from Vallejo would give the same results :D ²

[Brother Nihm]

Nihm was yours the 'lightning tutorial' here on B&C? It has helped me try to emulate Ap0k's purple power weapons.

The pre-dotting is a simple idea, yet one that directs where you are going to paint instead of trying to do it on the fly. Have a plan before action works well. Thank you.

Ya 'twas done by me. I'm glad you found it useful. :(

[winterdyne]

The Vallejo Glaze Medium is a suspension agent. It won't automatically prevent the ringing effect - it just gives you a bit more time to work and makes the mix a bit more forgiving if you put too much down.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

The Vallejo Glaze Medium is a suspension agent. It won't automatically prevent the ringing effect - it just gives you a bit more time to work and makes the mix a bit more forgiving if you put too much down.

 

Are you able to expand on how the glaze, thinner and/or mixing mediums interact with the paint? :)

[winterdyne]

Sure. There are a few additives that I generally use, so I'll talk about those. All have water added to the mix if using a dry palette. On

 

First up, plain ol' water. Water's got quite a high surface tension, so generally you have to apply it really thinly. Letting it pool causes the blob of water to have a distinct 'ring' around it as it dries - that's where the meniscus pulls pigment to. But it's quick and handy. I usually have 4 pots of water and a pipette handy - metallic washing pot, non-metallic washing pot, a rinse pot and a clean water pot for thinning. I like to use boiled water as it has less limescale in it, but I'm in a hard water area. Brushes never go in the clean water pot.

 

My wet pallette is filled with boiled water with a little bit of Tamiya thinner to kill the bugs / mould. Generally for thinning I can simply pull a drop of water from the sponge onto the parchment paper and that's enough for what I'm doing (only a dab of paint needs to be on the palette for most things). It's pretty rare I need more on the palette unless I'm doing a bulk job.

 

'Wet' water / flow improver mix. You can break the surface tension by adding a tiny amount of washing up liquid, or flow improver. This will make the water spread out more, which is useful for glazing and washes, where you want the water to flow into cracks. On a glossed surface, the mix will run into and along cracks by capillary action, similar to the effect you get doing an oil wash. Doesn't really knock back the dried opacity, so you can get a chalky finish if your paint isn't mixed well or you put too much down. A lot of the time this is what I airbrush with.

 

Glaze medium mix. This has the high flow property as above, but also contains an amount of clear acrylic medium, and a drying retardant. The paint will spread out nicely and take slightly longer to dry. Very useful for glazing and wet blending. Handy with a bit of flow improver as well when airbrushing. This does knock back the opacity as the medium suspends whatever pigment you have mixed in there. Chalkiness can be notably reduced. Very useful when having to use fewer transition colours if you're in a hurry. A few painters I know use glaze medium with absolutely everything. Personally I find that just water works well enough for most purposes.

 

Drying retardant. This doesn't really affect the flow, but does slow the drying time, making wet blends a lot easier. Handy if you're doing very long wet blends. Really needs to be used with water or the flow improver mix as it's quite thick on its own.

 

Klear / Future. Basically works like the glaze medium, but gives a gloss shine and is quite hardwearing. I don't generally use it other than as a varnish base. Mixed with Tamiya Flat Base (X-21 I think) in around 5-1 ratio it's an awesome matt varnish.

 

Tamiya Thinner. It's an alcohol based thinner, and it's great for airbrushing (and doing pigment setting). Fast evaporation / very quick dry time. Some acrylics react badly with it. Tamiya paints love it, Gunze-Sangyo (Mr Hobby) also seem to work fine with it. In order to do brush work with Tamiya paint, I wouldn't advise using anything else. And you absolutely MUST thin Tamiya paints to do brush work, or you'll find they dry before you do the second stroke. Well, I do. This gives a very low surface tension, so high flow, and very quick dry time. Useful for very quick hand-glazes sometimes.

 

Screen Wash. Again, alcohol based for airbrushing, a lot cheaper than Tamiya thinner, but the stuff I'm using isn't so reliable.

 

Ok, I'm rambling a bit now, but I hope this helps...

[Hemal]

Just echoing WDs sentiments - I definitely see better results using swashes f thinned colour on brushes. As for blocking colour - thats what foundations are for. But talking about highlighting or blending fine effects like mirror or crystal swords- lots of thin layers that produce a flawless effect like this

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Glaze medium mix. This has the high flow property as above, but also contains an amount of clear acrylic medium, and a drying retardant. The paint will spread out nicely and take slightly longer to dry. Very useful for glazing and wet blending. Handy with a bit of flow improver as well when airbrushing. This does knock back the opacity as the medium suspends whatever pigment you have mixed in there. Chalkiness can be notably reduced. Very useful when having to use fewer transition colours if you're in a hurry. A few painters I know use glaze medium with absolutely everything. Personally I find that just water works well enough for most purposes.

 

Ok, I'm rambling a bit now, but I hope this helps...

 

Not rambling at all. This is the info I want :D

So, thank you :)

 

All of it is useful, but the chalkiness thing is what I am also interested in.

I have been troubled with painting white.

I undercoat my Templars black. Then I use codex grey and fortress grey to build up to white. This is all lovely and smooth. By the time I get to the white part, I usually try to thin the white out more so that it is smooth. The problem is, it has a chalkiness to it. Boo!

 

So if I use the Glaze Medium, that should eliminate the chalkiness?

 

The reason I want the white thin is to keep the detail and give it a nice finish, but the finicky nature of white seems to be fighting against my wants :P

 

I also tried the P3 morrow white, but I still was not 'awed' by it. It is still a white paint....

 

But I am still getting used to P3, and adding water, etc. will be different from GW paint.

 

Just echoing WDs sentiments - I definitely see better results using swashes f thinned colour on brushes. As for blocking colour - thats what foundations are for. But talking about highlighting or blending fine effects like mirror or crystal swords- lots of thin layers that produce a flawless effect like this

 

Like this? Was that for a link or where you referring to things such as mirror and crystal swords?

[winterdyne]

For grey/white, I'd recommend at least 2 intermediate mixes between Fortress Grey and your pure white extreme highlights. The glaze medium will help cut back on the chalkiness (as it suspends the pigment a bit more and stops it clumping, which is what causes the chalky look), but you'll still need to build up to it. Also try Vallejo Model Air white. Airbrush-intended paints often have a much finer pigment grain in them which can be a factor. This is why I always use a palette, and always test the behaviour before I put stuff on a model - I've found things can vary from pot to pot as well as by brand.

 

For layering, which is what you're trying to do:

 

Get hold of a desk lamp with an incandescent (filament) bulb. These chuck out a fair bit of heat to dry layers under. So do your grey/white mix layer, stick it under the lamp, let it dry. Do the next layer, dry it. Repeat as many times as you want to get a smooth result. Don't be afraid to work backward with thin glazes to smooth things out. Then do the extremes. Don't try and blend up to pure white, it never looks right.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

For grey/white, I'd recommend at least 2 intermediate mixes between Fortress Grey and your pure white extreme highlights. The glaze medium will help cut back on the chalkiness (as it suspends the pigment a bit more and stops it clumping, which is what causes the chalky look), but you'll still need to build up to it. Also try Vallejo Model Air white. Airbrush-intended paints often have a much finer pigment grain in them which can be a factor. This is why I always use a palette, and always test the behaviour before I put stuff on a model - I've found things can vary from pot to pot as well as by brand.

 

For layering, which is what you're trying to do:

 

Get hold of a desk lamp with an incandescent (filament) bulb. These chuck out a fair bit of heat to dry layers under. So do your grey/white mix layer, stick it under the lamp, let it dry. Do the next layer, dry it. Repeat as many times as you want to get a smooth result. Don't be afraid to work backward with thin glazes to smooth things out. Then do the extremes. Don't try and blend up to pure white, it never looks right.

 

Just to be clear, I am painting the crosses+skulls on the shoulders white.

For edges on the armour I use the scheme in C:BT, pretty much. Foundation Adeptus battle grey, Codex grey, then Fortress grey. It looks sweet, and is helped by me using smaller brushes for each colour.

 

For the crosses+skulls, I do each coat a little 'smaller' than the previous.

But I am still painting some 80-90% of the crosses+skulls white.

 

What is it you mean by 'the extremes'?

 

What do you mean by 'Don't try and blend up to pure white, it never looks right.'

I think that is actually what I am doing right? By covering them with that 80-90% pure white coat?

 

+++

 

I just used some Vallejo glaze medium. One drop of that with their Dead white game colour. I still needed so water on the brush and in the mix, but it was better than without the glaze medium.

 

I can do those two intermediate coats, but I was hoping to get away from doing that. I already don't want to do the Codex then Fortress grey coats :)

 

I do have an incandescent lamp, as well as a fluro. The incandescent is a 100W halogen, so yeah, that'll bake the water content out :P

 

Thank you for answering all my questions. I do appreciate it.

http://i918.photobucket.com/albums/ad29/Marshall_Wilhelm/Avatar%20stuff/PinkiePieJump.gif

[winterdyne]

The extremes (in this context) are where you paint a super-fine line of pure white at the edge of the 'white' area to sharpen the contrast and make the design 'pop'. This makes the design look hard-edged, where before it might be a little fuzzy. The eye interprets high contrast as a hard edge, and lower contrast as softer. Incidentally this is why you edge highlight miniatures - to help reinforce the shape to your eye, not necessarily because an edge naturally catches more light.

 

Not blending up to pure white in an area allows you to use pure white for this edging technique, as well as for weathering chips / scratches. When I get round to finishing more of the custom spartan-style marines I'm working on you'll see a good example of what I mean on the shields.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

The extremes (in this context) are where you paint a super-fine line of pure white at the edge of the 'white' area to sharpen the contrast and make the design 'pop'. This makes the design look hard-edged, where before it might be a little fuzzy. The eye interprets high contrast as a hard edge, and lower contrast as softer. Incidentally this is why you edge highlight miniatures - to help reinforce the shape to your eye, not necessarily because an edge naturally catches more light.

 

Not blending up to pure white in an area allows you to use pure white for this edging technique, as well as for weathering chips / scratches. When I get round to finishing more of the custom spartan-style marines I'm working on you'll see a good example of what I mean on the shields.

 

This is interesting to hear. :lol:

 

I have finished the white sections for this one mini, which I am painting for a Templar forum challenge. So it is mostly white, and not what you are saying.

The Glaze Medium works well.

 

In the future I will try:

Fortress

2Fortress:1White

1Fortress:2White

Then edge highlight that with White.

 

I guess that means I don't need the Glaze Medium in those two intermediate mixes, due to the superior nature of the Fortress grey compared to White.

 

Hmmm....

[Hemal]

QUOTE (Hemal @ Jul 28 2011, 12:34 AM)

Just echoing WDs sentiments - I definitely see better results using swashes f thinned colour on brushes. As for blocking colour - thats what foundations are for. But talking about highlighting or blending fine effects like mirror or crystal swords- lots of thin layers that produce a flawless effect like this

It was just an off-hand - the best places to see examples of blending are on the Grey knight swords or Eldar blades...