Captain Semper Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Also, the Dark Angels are probably the only chapter that isn't going to be intimidated by numbers. You've got 6,000; we've got at least 8,000. 7,000 of them just repainted their armor for a while. ;) This is the first I've heard of this. Source? Some secrets ARE well kept after all... As to the topic at hand - bugger it, I'll off 'em all. No witnesses! :tu: Yeah,! That's the way to go... A good Inquisitor is a dead Inquisitor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmytool Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Olisredan give me your address I'll "help" you write the book..... There is no secret! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted July 26, 2011 Author Share Posted July 26, 2011 Olisredan give me your address I'll "help" you write the book..... There is no secret! Yeah, sure, I'd love he... wait a minute... :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Heh, that's what I get for only reading the rules and not the fluff out of the codex :D Thanks for the clarifications, all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kovash Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 There's nothing heretical about maintaining a chain of command amongst the various Unforgiven chapters. In fact, that makes us stronger. It would have been very interesting to see how the Lion would have reacted to Guilliman basically forcing everyone else to adopt his diary as the Codex Astartes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Nobody was forced to adopt the Codex Astartes at all, and this is a common misconception. What the Legions were forced to do was to be broken up into Chapters, and not by Guilliman either but by the Lords of Terra. All except the Space Wolves that is. They broke them up once, it turned out bad, and then they sort of gave up on the idea. Operationally speaking, the Space Wolves are likely the largest of the Chapters out there, being a true demi-Legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kovash Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Yes you're right, the Lords of Terra did force to break the Chapters apart, but I'm pretty sure that Guilliman was more than willing to defend that decision should a chapter refuse. In fact, didn't the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines almost fight because of the Codex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 No. No they didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Sharp Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 No. No they didn't. :) Someone's in denial. @Brother Kovash: Here's the info- http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_F...Astartes_Crisis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 @Brother Kovash: Here's the info- http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_F...Astartes_Crisis That page, as is not uncommon, has misunderstood the dispute Guilliman and Dorn had. From that page: "Dorn initially rejected the Codex Astartes and enmity developed between him and Guilliman. Dorn called Guilliman a coward, citing his lack of participation in the defense of the Imperial Palace. Guilliman accused Dorn of being a traitor for refusing the Codex." This is cited as coming from the Codex Black Templars. However, the Codex Black Templars has this description: "Rogal Dorn, who had coordinated the defence of Holy Terra, refused to have his Legion broken down into smaller Chapters, stating that it was his sacred duty to protect the Emperor and that he could not afford to split his forces across the Imperium. Dorn called Guilliman a coward, for the Ultramarines had not participated in the defence of the Imperial Palace, while Guilliman accused Dorn of being a rebel for refusing the dictates within his Codex Astartes. Dorn would not relent, and neither would Guilliman; Leman Russ of the Space Wolves and Vulkan of the Salamanders agreed with Dorn for they too did not want their Legions scattered to the corners of the galaxy, but Corax of the Raven Guard and Jaghatai Khan of the White Scars backed the Ultramarines." (Codex Black Templars, p. 6) The issue Dorn, Russ and Vulkan had was specifically that they were not willing to have their Legions divided. They were not described as having issues with the Codex Astartes as a whole. A noteworthy distinction, I think. The Impeiral Fists were almsot branded heretics at that time, and at one point one of the Legion's strike cruisers was fired upon by the Imperial Navy. The Black Templar sources give that incident as the cause for Dorn finally relenting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinks Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 It begs the question though why would Guilliman call Dorn a traitor for not adopting the Codex? I mean really, calling Dorn a traitor is redicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Because the splitting of the Legions was decreed by the High Lords, who represent the will of the Emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Really though Guilliman called Dorn a traitor because Gav thought it gave it drama. It ignored all the background where Dorn did it on the condition he be able to take a full legion against Perturabo and that Guilliman and Dorn were very similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trel Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I think the "Terrible Angel" incident added to Dorn's legacy rather than take away from it. Dorn and Guilliman weren't all that alike at all. Dorn was humble. :teehee: Calling Dorn a traitor is a careful use on Guilliman's part to use a loaded term to get his way. (It's like calling someone a 'socialist' in America today.) Post-heresy, everyone's terrified of the Space Marines and Guilliman is busy forging his own little fiefdom in the ashes of the old Imperium. The most loyal son, the most grief-stricken son of the Emperor is gearing up to finish the job of avenging the Emperor and won't do as Guilliman says. So Guilliman implies treachery and that's all the Imperials need to take no chances at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 The issue Dorn, Russ and Vulkan had was specifically that they were not willing to have their Legions divided. They were not described as having issues with the Codex Astartes as a whole. A noteworthy distinction, I think. The Impeiral Fists were almsot branded heretics at that time, and at one point one of the Legion's strike cruisers was fired upon by the Imperial Navy. The Black Templar sources give that incident as the cause for Dorn finally relenting. What do you mean a noteworthy distinction? The Codex is all about how a Chapter of Space Marines should operate. It was brought forward by Guilliman after the need for the breaking up of legions was apparent (and willingly endorsed by Guilliman as a smart thing to do) to answer the question of what will become of Space Marines now the the Legions were to be broken-down Guilliman produced the Codex. How can one be OK with the Codex and not OK with the breaking up of the Legions? These mutually exclusive. Maybe you mean that provided Dorn and the others were finally persuaded to break up their legions they had no objections as regards the content of the Codex? But this is like stating the obvious as Imperial Fists adhere closely to the Codex with a reverence similar to UMs. The only officially documented IF derivative that is not following the Codex is BT. I'm not sure I understand your point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 But the recent BL novels seem to indicate that the Big Blue Boss was working on the code prior to the break up. So they don't have to be mutually exclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Well I would expect Guilliman to have worked on the Codex for some time. I also believe the break-up of the Legions was his view of the future of Space Marines. That's why he put the Codex together. It was not commissioned by the High Lords. The High Lords approved it and thus legitimized it. My point: you cannot reject the notion of the Legions breaking up AND be OK with the Codex at the same time. You have to concede to either break up the Legions (and adopt the Codex assuming you accept it's Tactical insights) or keep the Legion intact, throw the Codex on a shelf along with other tactical treatises (assuming you accept it's Tactical insights, otherwise it's the bin - see SWs) and risk been branded a traitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 What do you mean a noteworthy distinction? The Codex is all about how a Chapter of Space Marines should operate. The Codex Astartes is essentially two things: It contains all the laws and legislation regarding Space Marines*. It explains their place within the Imperium, their duties, but also their privileges. This part was drawn up after the Heresy (at least that's what originally was stated), and some of the most notable decrees were the reduction of force sizes, the limitation of fleet assets, and the controlled training of new recruits. All of this was more or less law and required. But the Codex also includes the monumental treatise on Chapter organisation and combat doctrines**. This part was originally said to have been developed over the course of the Great Crusade, until the latest HH novel screwed that up. This can be seen as Guilliman's pet project, since he has spent (originally) virtually all his carrer working on this, documenting not only his own doctrines but also the best of his brothers'. These organisational and tactical doctrines are generally described more as "guidelines", and enforcing them would have made little sense, since you can hardly monitor the Chapters to see whether they are performing the drop pod maneuvre correctly, or ar using the correct unit markings. It is usually this later part that is refered to when a Chapter is described as a "Codex Chapter" or as deviating from the Codex doctrines. It was the first part of the Codex, the decreed legislation for Space Marine Chapters, and more specifically the decree that no Space Marine force should have much more than 1,000 warriors, which was opposed by Dorn and Russ. I assume they did not have issues with the decree that new gene-seed and new recruits should be produced more carefully, since the accelerated process that had been used in the Great Crusade had proven to make the Marines susceptible to the influences of the Dark Gods. I also assume they would not have had problems with the legislation explaining the hierarchy between the Adeptus Astartes and the other institutions of the Imperium, and other such legislation. And they would probably not have had issues with the suggested guidelines for organisation and combat doctrines, since this part was laregly optional anyway. It was specifically the issue that they had to break down their former Legion and would henceforth only be in command of a single Chapter they had a problem with. So, yes, I do think it is possible for Rogal Dorn to not have had a problem with the Codex as a whole, especially not with the wealth of tactical doctrine which had been compiled from the knowledge of several Primarchs. *"The original Space Marine Legions were broken up into smaller Chapters and a code was drawn up to redefine their role and jurisdiction within the Imperium. This code was called the Codex Astartes." (5th C:SW, p. 9) **[After eight paragraphs describing two important 'decrees' of the Codex Astartes] "The Codex Astartes further defines the tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings of the Space Marines. These guidelines have been much modified over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the 41st Millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history. (..:) Some Chapters even regard the recommendations as sanctified by the Emperor himself." (5th C:SM, p. 9) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Well the Codex is not pick'n choose. You either accept it or not. It is flexible yes, it gives options, true, but it is also dogmatic. What's the point of having it if anyone could do what he likes? You don't need a Codex for that ...I mean Chapters are divided to "Codex" and "non Codex" based exactly on that. Does a non Codex Chapter fight with bows and spears? Off course not. They use bolters, rhinos and such but they could have say 3 dev squads per company or not have devs at all. Or even mix scouts with fully fledged marines in the same squads! Or exceed the prescribed max number of warriors per chapter. Or ride wolves (lame I know). The fact that Dorn had an issue with a fundamental aspect of the Codex obviously means he had a problem with the Codex. The fact that he accepted it's tactical doctrines made it easier to swallow when he finally conceded. Russ on the other hand didn't see the the value in it and discarted it altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Well the Codex is not pick'n choose. You either accept it or not. It is flexible yes, it gives options, true, but it is also dogmatic. What's the point of having it if anyone could do what he likes? You don't need a Codex for that ...I mean Chapters are divided to "Codex" and "non Codex" for a reason. Does a non Codex Chapter fight with bows and spears? Of course not. They use bolters, rhinos and such but they could have say 3 dev squads per company or not have devs at all. Or even mix scouts with fully fledged marines in the same squads! Or exceed the prescribed max number of warriors per chapter. Or ride wolves (lame I know). The fact that Dorn had an issue with a fundamental aspect of the Codex obviously means he had a problem with the Codex. The fact that he accepted it's tactical doctrines made it easier to swallow when he finally conceded. Russ on the other hand didn't see the the value in it and discarted it altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kovash Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I had not read most of the information that has been presented, so thanks for clearing it up. I still think that there was definitely a potential for conflict, but luckily the crisis was averted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 The fact that Dorn had an issue with a fundamental aspect of the Codex obviously means he had a problem with the Codex. When you say "Dorn rejected the Codex" then that gives the impression that he did have issues with the tactical and organisational doctrines, when the background very specifically points out that he had issue with one of the decrees of the Codex, namely the decree that the Legions should be broken down into smaller Chapters. That would create the notion that Dorn did not like the "ten companies with ten squads each" concept, and only begrudgingly adopted the new Codex organisation. A lot of people who only glance over the Black Templars background get the impression that Guilliman forced all the Legions and Chapters to organize into ten Companies of ten squads, just like his own Ultramarines. But then we have the Salamanders and the Space Wolves, who aren't organised that way, or the Iron Hands who do not have any reserve companies. A lot of players do not make a distinction between the combat doctrines part of the Codex, which was mainy guidelines and suggestions, and the legislation part of the Codex, which was mandatory for all Space Marines. As a result of this Guilliman is seen as pompous and arrogant for seemingly requiring all Space Marine forces to organise and fight according to his idears, when it was mainly the legislation, which Guilliman had devised on behest of the High Lords and as a reaction to the events of the Heresy, which was mandated and decreed to all. To steer this back to the Dark Angels a bit, a few sources mention that Guilliman had included treatises and articles by some of his brothers in the combat doctrine part of the Codex. Most notably he included Perturabo's siege tactics, which is mentioned in two sources (3rd Ed. C:CSM and IA:IF). However, according to the ancient "Armies of the Imperium" supplement for Space Marine Epic, Jonson had also offered "sagely advice" for the Codex. Therefor I assume that the Dark Angels would not have had any issues with adopting the tactical and organisational doctrines of the Codex Astartes. IIRC in some HH books the Dark Angels Legion had already been described as being organised into "Chapters" of 1,000 warriors, divided into ten companies. (One of the stories included two "Chapters", and one battle barge was said to have three company Captains on board.) Jonson himself was highly regarded as a gifted tactician, and if the same can be said about his Sons, then they should welcome the wealth of information and insight the Codex Astartes provides about the various different approaches to warfare. I assume that Jonson, for all his taciturnity, would have been among the Primarchs that would have been open and willing to discuss tactical doctrine with Guilliman (together with Dorn and Fulgrim, who also valued performance), where other Primarchs were outright rejecting the notion that they could learn anything from another Primarch as an insult to their abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 It would be a tasty irony if Jonson came up with the 1 veteran, 4 line, 4 reserve, 1 scout to&e since they seemed like they did that preheresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Sorry Captain Semper, I'm also going to have to agree with the others. If someone has a problem with one particular rule in a larger set of rules which they do accept, that would be as Legatus said, "They were not described as having issues with the Codex Astartes as a whole." I feel you are looking at it too black and white and coincidentally that is probably how the High Lords saw it as well. I'd say Guilliman used this to his advantage tossing in the "traitor" comment. They saw it as all or nothing and in the end Dorn's hand was forced to accept it as a whole. With that in mind, I do sort of see your point - if Dorn did not split his Legion, no matter if he used the other rules and doctrine of the codex, to at least the High Lords and Guilliman he rejected it, rejected the future of the Imperium and so on. And as Legatus touched on, it is not as black and white as "Codex" and "Non-codex". There is even some gray area in Codex Chapters. The Dark Angels along with the Blood Angels both are codex chapters per se, however the Dark Angels obviously organize their first two companies differently and the Blood Angels have an abundance of assault and fast oriented units which other more strict Codex chapters would not utilize in the same manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I don't even feel that the Dark Angels' 1st Company is that much of a deviation from Codex norms, even though it is commonly described as such in the background. Strict Codex Chapters have the option of equipping their Veterans with Terminator armour and, provided the Chapter has enough suits, could field the entire 1st Company as Terminator squads. The Dark Angels simply choose to allways equip their Veterans with Terminator armour. While there is of course a distinction between a Chapters that also fields regular Veteran squads in power armour, it none-the less seems to be something that is permitted by the Codex guidelines. It would be a tasty irony if Jonson came up with the 1 veteran, 4 line, 4 reserve, 1 scout to&e since they seemed like they did that preheresy. I assume there already was some exchange of idears during the Great Crusade by some of the Legions (those who did not consider themselves above such a notion). We may never know what elements were contributions by Jonson, though since logistics and organisation are usually presented as Guilliman's particular field of expertise, I think it is perhaps more likely that the exact company and unit organisation was mainly based on his idears. On the other hand, some of those doctrines could even have come from the Emperor himself, which some Primarchs adopted while others reorganised the Legions according to their own idears. Though since Dorn, one of the more devoted Primarchs, had a different Legion organisation, I think the Emperor probably had suggested no specific Legion structures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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