Hephaesteus Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Hi guys and girls, I have been thinking about something that has bugged me for a while. I have been going back through the books and see the chain of events was to be something like this; Horus is laid low by the kinebrach weapon and is taken to Davin. Magnus tries to stop Horus from falling to chaos, but fails. Horus knows that Magnus knows he has fallen. (but only Alpharius knows that Horus knows that Magnus knows :D) Magnus tries to warn the Emperor but wrecks the web way gate. The Emperor orders the wolves to bring Magnus to Terra (presumably for censure, but one would imagine to also sit him on the golden throne and protect the web way gate whilst it is fixed). Horus, however, gets hold of Russ and convinces him to destroy Magnus and the thousand sons, rather than bring them back, as intended. Magnus and the sons awaiting the recall, but nearly wiped out. Horus gets another legion on his side that would never have turned otherwise, and ties up the Emperor with the web way while he gathers his forces. My point is, reading through Prospero burns and A thousand sons. I haven't found any reference the distortion of the orders. Horus mentions his chat with Russ in false gods, but it seemed to be removed rather than expanded in the later books. I felt one of the saddest parts (and most influential) of the heresy was Magnus and Russ both being loyal to a fault but played against one another. Have I just missed it? Ultimately is it just me who thinks the Emperor should be painted in a slightly better light than he has in the series so far? It seemed to me that the duology about Prospero implied more that the Emperor sent the wolves to take down the sons. It made a play on how they had done that at least once before, and this changes the emphasis from Horus making subtle (but major and devious) plans to align the galaxy for his assault on the throne. Changing it to the Emperor being a 2-D old testament style vengeful god, not really better than the petty chaos gods he aims to destroy. Sorry, this seems to have turned into a long meandering ramble. I would like to hear your thoughts! Cheers, Hephaesteus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Shady Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Magnus tries to stop Horus from falling to chaos, but fails. Horus knows that Magnus knows he has fallen. (but only Alpharius knows that Horus knows that Magnus knows :P) Does he? Where was this mentioned? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2838657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCCCXXXVII Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 I would have to agree with you. For a Legion that is supposedly loyal to the Imperium, it seemed like the Space Wolves were all too eager to commence lethal force; and if I recall correctly, the earlier novels mentioned their original orders being something like censure, as you said, but PB didn't really cover this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2838671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 The censor part was first stated in the vision of hersey books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2838676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotsmasha Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Magnus tries to stop Horus from falling to chaos, but fails. Horus knows that Magnus knows he has fallen. (but only Alpharius knows that Horus knows that Magnus knows :lol:) Does he? Where was this mentioned? Magnus and the Thousand Sons are the pack of wolves within Horus' vision. Cheers, Jono Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2838787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Emperor probably wanted Magnus and his legion dead. I think it's better than Horus twisting the orders because Emperor stated in Nikea that consorters of Warp powers will meet obliteration and that's what happens. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2838829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I would have to agree with you. For a Legion that is supposedly loyal to the Imperium, it seemed like the Space Wolves were all too eager to commence lethal force; and if I recall correctly, the earlier novels mentioned their original orders being something like censure, as you said, but PB didn't really cover this. "Supposedly loyal"? The Wolves were as loyal to the Imperium as they could be, prepared to eradicate any of the brother Legions should it be necessary. The Wolves don't take prisoners, their way of war is savage, they are not merciful to those that oppose them, they will simply cut their thread and spill their blood. Just some biased thoughts on the matter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2838902 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piousservant Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Emperor probably wanted Magnus and his legion dead. I think it's better than Horus twisting the orders because Emperor stated in Nikea that consorters of Warp powers will meet obliteration and that's what happens. Firstly, the HH Series may be retconning (updating, if you prefer) the background of the Heresy, but it does really annoy me when we get retcons to previous books in the series. I mean really, disrepencies with the old background is one thing but with the other books in the same series, you'd of thought they could do better. Anyhow. I wholeheartedly agree that the complete lack of the Horus/Russ discussion in ATS/PB was very disappointing, particularly as it had been mentioned in False Gods. I think it added a lot to the story and it's a shame to see it missing. Russ being manipulated by Horus, so that two Loyalist brothers destroy each other was something which I think added a lot to Magnus, Russ and Horus. Also, Bill, the Emperor's view at Nikea was another change for the worse (IMHO) but I think, despite what he said, that it would be fitting for him to have wanted to recall Magnus to Terra rather than destroy him outright - despite what he said. I think that the Emperor showing a degree of compassion/mercy to Magnus, in contradiction to His words at Nikea, would actually be quite a good foreshadowing of the Emperor/Horus showdown (and also, if the Emperor can easily show no mercy to Magnus - why does he find it so hard to kill Horus, after Horus has committed the atrocities of Istvaan, laid siege to Terra and just slain Sanguinius..?). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2838919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000AD Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 One of the things that confused me with the Horus sub plot was why did Horus allow Russ to take with him the Custodians and Sisters of Silence as support when they clearly provided such valuable support? Surely if the goal was both legions to destroy each other then he would have denied them the support? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2838923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I think that the Emperor showing a degree of compassion/mercy to Magnus, in contradiction to His words at Nikea, would actually be quite a good foreshadowing of the Emperor/Horus showdown (and also, if the Emperor can easily show no mercy to Magnus - why does he find it so hard to kill Horus, after Horus has committed the atrocities of Istvaan, laid siege to Terra and just slain Sanguinius..?). Well what you've said certainly adds depth to Emperor's humane side but i always imagined Emperor as ruthless practician of his own vision and deems none will stand before his vision of galaxy. I expect Horus vs Emperor part also receive a huge retcon too assuming we will ever get to see that part in a HH book. Emperor getting softy when the fate of Humanity is at hand is really kinda silly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2838931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kizzdougs Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I would have to agree with you. For a Legion that is supposedly loyal to the Imperium, it seemed like the Space Wolves were all too eager to commence lethal force; and if I recall correctly, the earlier novels mentioned their original orders being something like censure, as you said, but PB didn't really cover this. Russ was never eager to annihilate the TS. He was against the suggested destruction of the Word Bearers pre-heresy. He took his 'Executioner' duty extremely seriously but never relished it. It was a burden he was willing to carry for his father. Emperor probably wanted Magnus and his legion dead. I think it's better than Horus twisting the orders because Emperor stated in Nikea that consorters of Warp powers will meet obliteration and that's what happens. The Emperor needed Magnus for the Throne. Magnus was central to the Emperor's plans, he would have been useless dead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2838936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I would have to agree with you. For a Legion that is supposedly loyal to the Imperium, it seemed like the Space Wolves were all too eager to commence lethal force; and if I recall correctly, the earlier novels mentioned their original orders being something like censure, as you said, but PB didn't really cover this. Russ does offer the 1k sons the chance to surrender. Which is recon in itself. So he does give Magnus a chance to come quietly. Magnus tell his legion not fight back but his legion ignores his orders and attacks the Space Wolves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2838938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 The Emperor needed Magnus for the Throne. Magnus was central to the Emperor's plans, he would have been useless dead. That was a best case scenario. As for now Magnus is better being useless and dead than dangerous and alive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2838947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000AD Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Russ does offer the 1k sons the chance to surrender. Which is recon in itself. So he does give Magnus a chance to come quietly. Magnus tell his legion not fight back but his legion ignores his orders and attacks the Space Wolves. Not quite..... Magnus blocks all knowledge of the Wolves arrival until it is too late. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2838951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I would have to agree with you. For a Legion that is supposedly loyal to the Imperium, it seemed like the Space Wolves were all too eager to commence lethal force; and if I recall correctly, the earlier novels mentioned their original orders being something like censure, as you said, but PB didn't really cover this. Russ does offer the 1k sons the chance to surrender. Which is recon in itself. So he does give Magnus a chance to come quietly. No he made a half-arsed attempt to. Russ of all people should have known communicating by the warp is tricky and unrelible at the best of times, so if he was so dead set on having Magnus surrender then why use Hawser? He could have just dropped into the system and opened up a vox-channel to the planet below (And that has been done before multiple times in the Heresy series, let alone 40k) or just send a shuttlecraft down if he was really desperate. It's just so much easier and direct. And the Wolves would not have even been in danger as they themselves noted that Prospero's defense grid was shut down. He could't even know for sure if Magnus was listening or if the connection was working at all. It's such a unreliable and indirect method it boggles my mind why Russ used it at all. Using Hawser to send a message is like me climbing into a second story window to get into my house when I could just use the front door. So either Russ was just looking for a way to unleash his bloodlust against the brother he hated or he was really stupid. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2839070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 From what I understand the Emperor wanted Magnus dead because Magnus had broken open a capillary to the throne room and the Emperor had magically forced that webway gate to remain open forever, giving Chaos a permanent conduit to come into the realverse without worrying about instability. I had always understood it that a Daemon's tie to the universe is based on the portal he uses to break into realspace, so if it can be closed the Daemon can't stay. Since the Golden Throne causes it to be closed, they cant get through, but if they make the golden throne fail they have a way to come in forever. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2839157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Scipio Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 From what I understand the Emperor wanted Magnus dead because Magnus had broken open a capillary to the throne room and the Emperor had magically forced that webway gate to remain open forever, giving Chaos a permanent conduit to come into the realverse without worrying about instability. I had always understood it that a Daemon's tie to the universe is based on the portal he uses to break into realspace, so if it can be closed the Daemon can't stay. Since the Golden Throne causes it to be closed, they cant get through, but if they make the golden throne fail they have a way to come in forever. And why should the Emperor want him dead then? The damaged wouldnt be undone and it would be totaly against the character of the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2839197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 the emperor never wanted magnus dead, had he wanted that russ never would have offered magnus to surrender. the emperor even needed magnus to be entered in the golden throne, although it can be debated the golden throne was beyond repairs. the real tragedy about the sacking of prosperro is that it's a conflict that could have been prevented had the emperor intervened before magnus closed the deal for the flesh-change and had he taken magnus into thrust about the golden throne. both russ and magnus their reactions in the story were only the logical thing to do Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2839214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 edit; double post Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2839215 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 He wanted him dead as punishment. He even said he would show no mercy if people kept dabbling in Warp Powers. The Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and such just never got caught for using sorcery afterwards. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2839221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Hi guys and girls, I have been thinking about something that has bugged me for a while. I have been going back through the books and see the chain of events was to be something like this; Horus is laid low by the kinebrach weapon and is taken to Davin. Magnus tries to stop Horus from falling to chaos, but fails. Horus knows that Magnus knows he has fallen. (but only Alpharius knows that Horus knows that Magnus knows ^_^) Magnus tries to warn the Emperor but wrecks the web way gate. The Emperor orders the wolves to bring Magnus to Terra (presumably for censure, but one would imagine to also sit him on the golden throne and protect the web way gate whilst it is fixed). Horus, however, gets hold of Russ and convinces him to destroy Magnus and the thousand sons, rather than bring them back, as intended. Magnus and the sons awaiting the recall, but nearly wiped out. Horus gets another legion on his side that would never have turned otherwise, and ties up the Emperor with the web way while he gathers his forces. My point is, reading through Prospero burns and A thousand sons. I haven't found any reference the distortion of the orders. Horus mentions his chat with Russ in false gods, but it seemed to be removed rather than expanded in the later books. I felt one of the saddest parts (and most influential) of the heresy was Magnus and Russ both being loyal to a fault but played against one another. Have I just missed it? Ultimately is it just me who thinks the Emperor should be painted in a slightly better light than he has in the series so far? It seemed to me that the duology about Prospero implied more that the Emperor sent the wolves to take down the sons. It made a play on how they had done that at least once before, and this changes the emphasis from Horus making subtle (but major and devious) plans to align the galaxy for his assault on the throne. Changing it to the Emperor being a 2-D old testament style vengeful god, not really better than the petty chaos gods he aims to destroy. Sorry, this seems to have turned into a long meandering ramble. I would like to hear your thoughts! Cheers, Hephaesteus If you look back on some of the Index Astartes articles there are two accounts of what happened; IA: Thousand Sons: The content of Magnus's warning was ignored completely. It is said the Emperor broke contact with such force that psychic wards throughout the Palace arced with lightning and shattered. At the Emperor's side stood Russ, quaking with barely-contained wrath at Magnus's actions. The Emperor turned to him, for he knew he could be counted upon to prosecute his next orders without restraint. He ordered the Space Wolves to be unleashed upon Magnus and the scholar-soldiers of Prospero. IA: Space Wolves: The Emperor refused to believe that Horus, his favoured son, would betray him, and he rose in anger against Magnus's warning. As the flame-haired Primarch opened a psychic connection to the Emperor, the Emperor was aghast at the extent of the research Magnus had conducted into heretical and blasphemous arts. In the Emperor's eyes, the Thousand Sons had probed too deeply into mysteries better left alone, willingly walking into the lair of the beast. Magnus' explanations did not pacify the Emperor, and Russ' worst suspicions were confirmed. At Russ' insistence, the Emperor was persuaded that Magnus was the traitor, not Horus. Horrified, the Emperor commanded Russ to leave immediately for the Thousand Sons' home world. The Wolf-King mustered his Legions about him, and prepared once more to go to war. Prospero was once the very image of paradise. Great towers of ice and ivory studded the landscape, and beautiful gardens and peaceful lakes were abundant. Russ believed that this veneer of civilisation and culture hid a roiling foundation of evil. In his eyes, every scholar, scribe and sorcerer had delved too far into the mire of Chaos, had drunk too deeply from the blasphemous waters of forbidden knowledge. There was no option; the Wolf-King knew that he must follow the Emperor's command to the letter: cast down the Thousand Sons. What the Black Library novels have done is retconned the orders given to Russ by the Emperor and what Horus told Russ. One thing introduced in Battle of the Fang creates yet another stumbling block. When Magnus is standing before the statue of Russ, he indicates that Russ was actually begging Magnus to surrender. That the Wolf King was wracked with grief and was begging for Magnus to surrender. Now this is coming from the horse's mouth so to speak which would indicate that the orders were to destroy and Russ was trying to get Magnus to surrender instead of facing destruction. One other point is that Magnus chose to accept his punishment and that is why he was intent on standing by when the Wolves attacked. Since Magnus knew the Wolves were coming, why did he not just send a message to Russ that he intended to accept his punishment/surrender? If Magnus was being so pious and accepting of the consequences, why did he not stop his captains from fighting? If Magnus knew he was at fault, why did he then enter the battle? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2839359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ring-around-the-roses Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 He was depressed, thats why he wasn't able to send the message. He was considering his life, all his mistakes and what had led to his own brother trying to kill him. Remeber, Primarchs are like orks(bare with me), in that war is encoded into them, its their point of existence and their sole purpose. It would have to be a really deep deppression to try and subsume that kind of genetic programming. Then, he sees his sons, his creations, his only confidantes and his lifes work being destroyed. And their laughing at this? Its Hammer time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2839377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 He was depressed, thats why he wasn't able to send the message. He was considering his life, all his mistakes and what had led to his own brother trying to kill him. Remeber, Primarchs are like orks(bare with me), in that war is encoded into them, its their point of existence and their sole purpose. It would have to be a really deep deppression to try and subsume that kind of genetic programming. Then, he sees his sons, his creations, his only confidantes and his lifes work being destroyed. And their laughing at this? Its Hammer time. His "depression" sure didn't have any problem killing his own sons when they accidentally saw the truth. Neither did the "depression" stop him from showing Ahriman the Wolves actually traveling in the warp towards Prospero. Nor did it stop him from blinding the Corvidae to the approaching Wolves. And it is a very flawed comparison to Orks. The primarchs are not as one-sided as Orks in the slightest. We see what the primarchs are capable of doing besides just going to war. We see the difference in personalities that are beyond just warrior mentalities. Magnus was accepting the coming Wolves as his punishment for destroying what the Emperor created. He even mentions that looking upon Prospero destroyed, he knew what the Emperor felt. Yet with all that accepting, he chose not to stop his sons from fighting back and then himself chose to enter into the fight, not as a primarch, but as an ascending daemon-primarch. At the point that he descends from his pyramid, he has brokered for himself and his Legion for the Planet of the Sorcerers and his daemon-princehood. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2839393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ring-around-the-roses Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Okay, my reasoning is flawed. i accept my mistake and seek to correct it ^_^ BUT, he was not a daemon-primarch when he fought Russ. It is specifically stated that Magnus fought him Hand-to-Hand. And from that, we can deduce that he knew he was going to fail. He may of have been prideful, but even he must of have seen that going toe-to-toe with Leman is a suicide charge. He wanted to die, in the only way his twisted warlike upbringing would let him. In a glorious death against a foe greater than himself. In smashing things anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2839401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Okay, my reasoning is flawed. i accept my mistake and seek to correct it ;) BUT, he was not a daemon-primarch when he fought Russ. It is specifically stated that Magnus fought him Hand-to-Hand. And from that, we can deduce that he knew he was going to fail. He may of have been prideful, but even he must of have seen that going toe-to-toe with Leman is a suicide charge. He wanted to die, in the only way his twisted warlike upbringing would let him. In a glorious death against a foe greater than himself. In smashing things anyway. Magnus knew exactly what he was doing when he faced Russ. It was part of the bargain of his ascension. That is why he had the book delivered to Ahriman with instructions on how to leave Prospero. He had brokered the deal on how he was going to escape death and how he was going to allow his sons to escape, BEFORE he fought Russ. That is premeditation of planning with the Chaotic forces. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/235696-a-thought-on-the-sacking-of-prospero/#findComment-2839420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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