A thought on the sacking of Prospero

[Ring-around-the-roses]

TO SAVE HIS SONS, NOT TURN HIM INTO A DAEMON

[Lord Melvin]

I seem to recall it being Magnus and his attempt to contact the Emperor that broke the Golden Throne, and that the Emperor wanted to use it to access the Webway and use it to destroy the Eldar once and for all. When Magnus contacted the Emperor, he broke the psychic wards around the palace the the subsequent backlash also disturbed the alignment of the throne. The big E was so pissed off that he sent the Space Wolves to go teach him a lesson. The thing is, it's never really explained what the Emperor told Russ to do, only that he sent the Wolves off to Prospero, Horus got in the way, and the planet got torched.

[Ring-around-the-roses]

Evil 1k sons haters all.

 

sob,sob

[Grimtooth]

TO SAVE HIS SONS, NOT TURN HIM INTO A DAEMON

 

He became a being of pure warp power and he had no problem ALSO getting saved when Russ was about to lop of his head.

 

 

I seem to recall it being Magnus and his attempt to contact the Emperor that broke the Golden Throne, and that the Emperor wanted to use it to access the Webway and use it to destroy the Eldar once and for all. When Magnus contacted the Emperor, he broke the psychic wards around the palace the the subsequent backlash also disturbed the alignment of the throne. The big E was so pissed off that he sent the Space Wolves to go teach him a lesson. The thing is, it's never really explained what the Emperor told Russ to do, only that he sent the Wolves off to Prospero, Horus got in the way, and the planet got torched.

 

The Index Astartes articles pretty much tell you what the orders were. It isn't only till now with the BL that we have some doubts arise.

[Ring-around-the-roses]

I suppose it just comes from your perspective. The way the HH books are written, especially the Prospero duo, make for excellent arguments, that will forever be the subject of bias.

[Gree]

What the Black Library novels have done is retconned the orders given to Russ by the Emperor and what Horus told Russ.

 

No, it's quite muddled actually. The retcon occured in Collected Visions but Prospero Burns is vague on the matter and A Thousand Sons implies that Valdor did something.

 

One thing introduced in Battle of the Fang creates yet another stumbling block. When Magnus is standing before the statue of Russ, he indicates that Russ was actually begging Magnus to surrender. That the Wolf King was wracked with grief and was begging for Magnus to surrender.

 

Now this is coming from the horse's mouth so to speak which would indicate that the orders were to destroy and Russ was trying to get Magnus to surrender instead of facing destruction.

 

One other point is that Magnus chose to accept his punishment and that is why he was intent on standing by when the Wolves attacked. Since Magnus knew the Wolves were coming, why did he not just send a message to Russ that he intended to accept his punishment/surrender? If Magnus was being so pious and accepting of the consequences, why did he not stop his captains from fighting? If Magnus knew he was at fault, why did he then enter the battle?

 

Re-read the book, Magnus says that Russ told him that when they were fighting at the Pyramid of Photep. Magnus even flat out states it was before the Pyramid on pg 455 of Battle of the Fang.

 

Yet with all that accepting, he chose not to stop his sons from fighting back

 

Or was unable to. He ordered them to stand down. They ignored him and went off on their own. Magnus is strong, but strong enough to take on an entire Legion? Doubtful.

 

not as a primarch, but as an ascending daemon-primarch.

 

Proof that he was ascending?

 

Magnus knew exactly what he was doing when he faced Russ. It was part of the bargain of his ascension.

 

Proof?

 

That is why he had the book delivered to Ahriman with instructions on how to leave Prospero.

 

So Ahirman could escape. That's no proof he knew exactly what he was doing or wanted.

 

He had brokered the deal on how he was going to escape death and how he was going to allow his sons to escape, BEFORE he fought Russ. That is premeditation of planning with the Chaotic forces.

 

Again, proof?

[Grimtooth]

What the Black Library novels have done is retconned the orders given to Russ by the Emperor and what Horus told Russ.

 

No, it's quite muddled actually. The retcon occured in Collected Visions but Prospero Burns is vague on the matter and A Thousand Sons implies that Valdor did something.

 

One thing introduced in Battle of the Fang creates yet another stumbling block. When Magnus is standing before the statue of Russ, he indicates that Russ was actually begging Magnus to surrender. That the Wolf King was wracked with grief and was begging for Magnus to surrender.

 

Now this is coming from the horse's mouth so to speak which would indicate that the orders were to destroy and Russ was trying to get Magnus to surrender instead of facing destruction.

 

One other point is that Magnus chose to accept his punishment and that is why he was intent on standing by when the Wolves attacked. Since Magnus knew the Wolves were coming, why did he not just send a message to Russ that he intended to accept his punishment/surrender? If Magnus was being so pious and accepting of the consequences, why did he not stop his captains from fighting? If Magnus knew he was at fault, why did he then enter the battle?

 

Re-read the book, Magnus says that Russ told him that when they were fighting at the Pyramid of Photep. Magnus even flat out states it was before the Pyramid on pg 455 of Battle of the Fang.

 

I am not debating where it happened, I am making it known that it did happen.

[Gree]

What the Black Library novels have done is retconned the orders given to Russ by the Emperor and what Horus told Russ.

 

No, it's quite muddled actually. The retcon occured in Collected Visions but Prospero Burns is vague on the matter and A Thousand Sons implies that Valdor did something.

 

One thing introduced in Battle of the Fang creates yet another stumbling block. When Magnus is standing before the statue of Russ, he indicates that Russ was actually begging Magnus to surrender. That the Wolf King was wracked with grief and was begging for Magnus to surrender.

 

Now this is coming from the horse's mouth so to speak which would indicate that the orders were to destroy and Russ was trying to get Magnus to surrender instead of facing destruction.

 

One other point is that Magnus chose to accept his punishment and that is why he was intent on standing by when the Wolves attacked. Since Magnus knew the Wolves were coming, why did he not just send a message to Russ that he intended to accept his punishment/surrender? If Magnus was being so pious and accepting of the consequences, why did he not stop his captains from fighting? If Magnus knew he was at fault, why did he then enter the battle?

 

Re-read the book, Magnus says that Russ told him that when they were fighting at the Pyramid of Photep. Magnus even flat out states it was before the Pyramid on pg 455 of Battle of the Fang.

 

I am not debating where it happened, I am making it known that it did happen.

 

And then you asked why did he not just accept Russ's demands for surrender? Those demands were made before the attack on Prospero through Hawser, he most likely Magnus could't hear. Magnus probably only knew of Russ's desire fo rhis surrender until it was only too late.

[Jim Shady]

Magnus tries to stop Horus from falling to chaos, but fails. Horus knows that Magnus knows he has fallen. (but only Alpharius knows that Horus knows that Magnus knows :))

 

Does he? Where was this mentioned?

 

Magnus and the Thousand Sons are the pack of wolves within Horus' vision.

 

Cheers,

Jono

 

Sorry, I should have made my question clearer. I know about Horus and Magnus etc BUT how did Alpharius know that Horus knows that Magnus knows?

[Grimtooth]

Magnus could have just as easily, "tapped out" if he wanted to surrender if Russ was begging him to surrender before the pyramid fight. He could have just stopped fighting. He had just previously told his son that he deserved to be punished for his actions. But no, instead he had already planned how to allow him and his sons to escape destruction by brokering a deal with Chaos when he made his descent to fight Russ.

 

We know NOW that Kasper was not an instrument of the Thousand Sons but one of the Primordial Annihilator. The readers did not know that and neither did Russ. The events with the Primordial Annihilator at the Council of Nikea only reinforced the SW suspicions that Kasper was a Thousand Sons plant with "Amon".

 

It is easy for you to say how dumb it was NOW to say that talking through Kasper was not enough, but given the events leading up to that (incident at Nikea and Magnus breaching the palace), Kasper being a direct conduit to Magnus was not out of the question at all.

[Jim Shady]

I seem to recall it being Magnus and his attempt to contact the Emperor that broke the Golden Throne, and that the Emperor wanted to use it to access the Webway and use it to destroy the Eldar once and for all. When Magnus contacted the Emperor, he broke the psychic wards around the palace the the subsequent backlash also disturbed the alignment of the throne. The big E was so pissed off that he sent the Space Wolves to go teach him a lesson. The thing is, it's never really explained what the Emperor told Russ to do, only that he sent the Wolves off to Prospero, Horus got in the way, and the planet got torched.

 

I think he told them to bring Magnus back to face judgement and Horus got word of what was going down and obviously he knew Magnus saw what would transpire after Davin so decided to fuel the fires. The plan was for the SW and TS to destroy one another so there'd be 2 less Legions to deal with.

[Gree]

Magnus could have just as easily, "tapped out" if he wanted to surrender if Russ was begging him to surrender before the pyramid fight. He could have just stopped fighting.

 

Why would he? Blood has already been spilled, it's already gone to hell. To want to die is one thing, but to actually see your people and city die slowly before you in another. At that point Magnus had only appeared because Arhiman had to beg him. At that point Magnus was essentially buying time for his Legion to escape.

 

It is easy for you to say how dumb it was NOW to say that talking through Kasper was not enough, but given the events leading up to that (incident at Nikea and Magnus breaching the palace), Kasper being a direct conduit to Magnus was not out of the question at all.

 

It's not a question of him being a plant. It's warp communication. Russ of all people should know that the warp is not something to be used reliably or be trusted. Russ of all people should know that sending messages using the warp is an unreliable thing. It's much simpler to drop into Prospero's defenseless orbit and technologically issue a message directly to Magnus like the Imperium has the tecnnology to do.

 

Hawser being Magnus's plant should have been irrelevant when one has a safer and reliable method of communicating. If I were Russ I would have contacted Magnus conventionally regardless of my beliefs about Hawser becase I know that warp communication is iffy at the best of times and the warp in general is not to be trusted unless absolutely nessecary.

 

Communicating a psychic message through a third part with the warp is bound to carry risks due ot the inherant nature of the warp. If the message was so important to Russ then he would have waited until he could have just dropped in system and opened up a channel to Prospero (As we've seen ship-to-planet communication done before in 40k many times) for a much safer, reliable method. And Russ's fleet would not have been risked as the system defenses were noted to be deactivated.

 

Russ really had no logical reason to use Hawser at all.

[Jim Shady]

Russ really had no logical reason to use Hawser at all.

 

I thought he used to him to show the TS that they weren't what every Legion thought them to be, that they had cunning and guile and they knew how to use it.

[Hfran Morkai]

It's much simpler to drop into Prospero's defenseless orbit and technologically issue a message directly to Magnus like the Imperium has the tecnnology to do.

 

Except the Wolves didn't know the planet's orbital defenses were deactivated and for all they knew the Thousand Sons had seen the day coming. They would have been incredibly suspicious when the fleet was mysteriously absent in just about all its force.

 

I feel the Wolves would have suspected a trap, and to hell with it just dropped its warriors.

[Gree]

Russ really had no logical reason to use Hawser at all.

 

I thought he used to him to show the TS that they weren't what every Legion thought them to be, that they had cunning and guile and they knew how to use it.

 

So instead of furfilling their duties to their best possible affect they decide to do the equivalent of ''ha ha, we are better than you'' by using a unreliable method. So much for the Emperor's disciplined executioners.

 

It's much simpler to drop into Prospero's defenseless orbit and technologically issue a message directly to Magnus like the Imperium has the tecnnology to do.

 

Except the Wolves didn't know the planet's orbital defenses were deactivated and for all they knew the Thousand Sons had seen the day coming. They would have been incredibly suspicious when the fleet was mysteriously absent in just about all its force.

 

I feel the Wolves would have suspected a trap, and to hell with it just dropped its warriors.

 

Actually they did know the planet's defenses were deactivated. It's noted when they enter the system and the Rune Priests even get to interrogate some of the fleeing ships from Prospero. Haweser then describes them waiting for an hour before the attack begins, with no reply at all from Prospero's defenses.

 

( A Wolf commander states his belief to Russ that Magnus may have had defenses readied, but still that does not change the fact that the Wolves had an hour to contact Prospero and did nothing.)

[Grimtooth]

Magnus could have just as easily, "tapped out" if he wanted to surrender if Russ was begging him to surrender before the pyramid fight. He could have just stopped fighting.

 

Why would he? Blood has already been spilled, it's already gone to hell. To want to die is one thing, but to actually see your people and city die slowly before you in another. At that point Magnus had only appeared because Arhiman had to beg him. At that point Magnus was essentially buying time for his Legion to escape.

 

It is easy for you to say how dumb it was NOW to say that talking through Kasper was not enough, but given the events leading up to that (incident at Nikea and Magnus breaching the palace), Kasper being a direct conduit to Magnus was not out of the question at all.

 

It's not a question of him being a plant. It's warp communication. Russ of all people should know that the warp is not something to be used reliably or be trusted. Russ of all people should know that sending messages using the warp is an unreliable thing. It's much simpler to drop into Prospero's defenseless orbit and technologically issue a message directly to Magnus like the Imperium has the tecnnology to do.

 

Hawser being Magnus's plant should have been irrelevant when one has a safer and reliable method of communicating. If I were Russ I would have contacted Magnus conventionally regardless of my beliefs about Hawser becase I know that warp communication is iffy at the best of times and the warp in general is not to be trusted unless absolutely nessecary.

 

Communicating a psychic message through a third part with the warp is bound to carry risks due ot the inherant nature of the warp. If the message was so important to Russ then he would have waited until he could have just dropped in system and opened up a channel to Prospero (As we've seen ship-to-planet communication done before in 40k many times) for a much safer, reliable method. And Russ's fleet would not have been risked as the system defenses were noted to be deactivated.

 

Russ really had no logical reason to use Hawser at all.

 

You have Magnus accepting his fate when the Space Wolves start to attack. Between that time and when he enters into the fight he makes a deal with Chaos to now save his sons and his own butt. A deal that allows him and his sons to be transported to the Planet of the Sorcerors. His sons were dying when he made the pact. He didn't accept the request of surrender because he already had made his deal.

 

Let's get something straight. This isn't "warp communication" as you are trying to make it out to be where Russ is dealing with an astropathic choir and trying to send a message to Magnus through a stormy warp. Depending on which account you follow (Index Astartes or new BL) Russ was present when Magnus breached the Emperor's palace using the warp to send his message. He has witnessed Magnus' control over the warp firsthand. With Kasper being considered not just a plant but a direct conduit to Magnus, Russ using him would be akin to picking up a red phone with a direct line to 1-800-Magnus. If anything, Kasper would be even MORE reliable to get a message to Magnus then the astropathic choir because he was a direct conduit versus using the astropathic choir having to deal with the warp.

 

You can say what you would do NOW as Russ but that is with hindsight that Russ did not have at the time. At the time, Kasper was not just a spy, but a direct conduit to Magnus.

[Marshal Rohr]

Wasnt Hawser just the pawn of some Daemon....

[Gree]

You have Magnus accepting his fate when the Space Wolves start to attack. Between that time and when he enters into the fight he makes a deal with Chaos to now save his sons and his own butt. A deal that allows him and his sons to be transported to the Planet of the Sorcerors. His sons were dying when he made the pact. He didn't accept the request of surrender because he already had made his deal.

 

I am already aware of that, I already stated that.

 

Let's get something straight. This isn't "warp communication" as you are trying to make it out to be where Russ is dealing with an astropathic choir and trying to send a message to Magnus through a stormy warp. Depending on which account you follow (Index Astartes or new BL) Russ was present when Magnus breached the Emperor's palace using the warp to send his message. He has witnessed Magnus' control over the warp firsthand. With Kasper being considered not just a plant but a direct conduit to Magnus, Russ using him would be akin to picking up a red phone with a direct line to 1-800-Magnus. If anything, Kasper would be even MORE reliable to get a message to Magnus then the astropathic choir because he was a direct conduit versus using the astropathic choir having to deal with the warp.

 

You can say what you would do NOW as Russ but that is with hindsight that Russ did not have at the time. At the time, Kasper was not just a spy, but a direct conduit to Magnus.

 

The warp is alway inherantly unreliable. Always always. Even if it is supposedly a direct conduit anyone should expect the possiblity of something going wrong.

 

In fact, if Magnus used sorcery or he was tainted by the warp then would't exposing any kind of yourself in any matter with the warp be a bad idea?

 

And note, I said nothing about an astropathic choir. We have non-warp technological means of contacting planets when in system. It's done in the Ultramarine books, it's done in the Blood Angel books, it's done in A First Heretic and it's been done elsewere. All Russ needed to do was go in-system and broadcast his surrender demands to Prospero. All 100% warp free and trustworthy. Prospero's system defenses were already down and the Wolves even waited on hour according to Prospero Burns before attacking. They had plenty of time and means to do it.

 

Russ really had no logical reason to use Hawser, plant or not.

[Grimtooth]

Wasnt Hawser just the pawn of some Daemon....

 

Yes we know that NOW. Kasper was a pawn of the Primordial Annihilator who we now know was pretty much responsible for orchestrating the entire Heresy.

[Grimtooth]

You have Magnus accepting his fate when the Space Wolves start to attack. Between that time and when he enters into the fight he makes a deal with Chaos to now save his sons and his own butt. A deal that allows him and his sons to be transported to the Planet of the Sorcerors. His sons were dying when he made the pact. He didn't accept the request of surrender because he already had made his deal.

 

I am already aware of that, I already stated that.

 

Let's get something straight. This isn't "warp communication" as you are trying to make it out to be where Russ is dealing with an astropathic choir and trying to send a message to Magnus through a stormy warp. Depending on which account you follow (Index Astartes or new BL) Russ was present when Magnus breached the Emperor's palace using the warp to send his message. He has witnessed Magnus' control over the warp firsthand. With Kasper being considered not just a plant but a direct conduit to Magnus, Russ using him would be akin to picking up a red phone with a direct line to 1-800-Magnus. If anything, Kasper would be even MORE reliable to get a message to Magnus then the astropathic choir because he was a direct conduit versus using the astropathic choir having to deal with the warp.

 

You can say what you would do NOW as Russ but that is with hindsight that Russ did not have at the time. At the time, Kasper was not just a spy, but a direct conduit to Magnus.

 

The warp is alway inherantly unreliable. Always always. Even if it is supposedly a direct conduit anyone should expect the possiblity of something going wrong.

 

In fact, if Magnus used sorcery or he was tainted by the warp then would't exposing any kind of yourself in any matter with the warp be a bad idea?

 

And note, I said nothing about an astropathic choir. We have non-warp technological means of contacting planets when in system. It's done in the Ultramairne books, it's doen in the Blood Angel books, it's done in A First Heretic and it's been done elsewere. All Russ needed to do was go in-system, broadcast his surrender demands to Prospero. All 100% warp free and trustworthy.

 

You are not too tactically savvy are you? Lose much with those ideas of openly broadcasting your intentions to a possible enemy? And are you talking about the same non-warp technological means of communication that Magnus DIDN'T use when he wanted to send a message to the Emperor?

 

This isn't the first time that you have tried to second guess the events of Prospero Gree. The one thing that you have done each time is armchair quarterback the event WITH KNOWLEDGE AS A READER NOT AS A CHARACTER IN THE BOOK. Total fallacy to take that stance.

[Gree]

You are not too tactically savvy are you? Lose much with those ideas of openly broadcasting your intentions to a possible enemy?

 

Dude, we know Russ already broadcasted his intentions to get Magnus to surrender through Hawser. (Or at least he though he was) All he would be doing is asking Magnus to surrender, not giving him his battle plans.

 

Or should I take this as a statement that you think Russ is not ''tactically savvy''. (Going by your own logic)

 

And are you talking about the same non-warp technological means of communication that Magnus DIDN'T use when he wanted to send a message to the Emperor?

 

No we aren't. I am talking about inter-system communication that we saw be done in A First Heretic and other sources. The distance between Prospero and Terra is obviously far greater than simply ship to planet-communication that can be done in-system.

 

You have read my posts haven't you? Drop into the system first and then make the surrender demands from in-system. We've seen that type of thing done many, many times before. (For example Lorgar contacts Magnus's ship in system in A First Heretic, Pavonis contacts an Ultrasmarine ship in-system in Nightbringer, Corbec contacts a Navy ship from a planet in system. Eisenhorn does it acouple of times, etc, etc.)

 

This isn't the first time that you have tried to second guess the events of Prospero Gree. The one thing that you have done each time is armchair quarterback the event WITH KNOWLEDGE AS A READER NOT AS A CHARACTER IN THE BOOK. Total fallacy to take that stance.

 

First of all calm down. This is a discussion about fictional characters. No need for caps lock.

 

And no, I'm not doing that. I'm simply operating on knowledge of Russ's character and what we already know to be in-universe knowledge of the warp and what the Imperium has as technology. There is no second guessing, merely a simple application of logic and reason.

 

Russ, from his position, has the option to use a unreliable warp-based method (When he know full well the warp is not to be trsuted, it's to be carefully controlled and guarded against, this is a theme expanded on in Prospero Burns) or a 100% safe technological means to contact Magnus.)

 

He chooses the former for some inexplicable reason.

[Grimtooth]

You are not too tactically savvy are you? Lose much with those ideas of openly broadcasting your intentions to a possible enemy?

 

Dude, we know Russ already broadcasted his intentions to get Magnus to surrender through Hawser. (Or at least he though he was) All he would be doing is asking Magnus to surrender, not giving him his battle plans.

 

Or should I take this as a statement that you think Russ is not ''tactically savvy''. (Going by your own logic)

 

And are you talking about the same non-warp technological means of communication that Magnus DIDN'T use when he wanted to send a message to the Emperor?

 

No we aren't. I am talking about inter-system communication that we saw be done in A First Heretic and other sources. The distance between Prospero and Terra is obviously far greater than simply ship to planet-communication that can be done in-system.

 

You have read my posts haven't you? Drop into the system first and then make the surrender demands from in-system. We've seen that type of thing done many, many times before. (For example Lorgar contacts Magnus's ship in system in A First Heretic, Pavonis contacts an Ultrasmarine ship in-system in Nightbringer, Corbec contacts a Navy ship from a planet in system. Eisenhorn does it acouple of times, etc, etc.)

 

This isn't the first time that you have tried to second guess the events of Prospero Gree. The one thing that you have done each time is armchair quarterback the event WITH KNOWLEDGE AS A READER NOT AS A CHARACTER IN THE BOOK. Total fallacy to take that stance.

 

First of all calm down. This is a discussion about fictional characters. No need for caps lock.

 

And no, I'm not doing that. I'm simply operating on knowledge of Russ's character and what we already know to be in-universe knowledge of the warp and what the Imperium has as technology. There is no second guessing, merely a simple application of logic and reason.

 

Russ, from his position, has the option to use a unreliable warp-based method (When he know full well the warp is not to be trsuted, it's to be carefully controlled and guarded against, this is a theme expanded on in Prospero Burns) or a 100% safe technological means to contact Magnus.)

 

He chooses the former for some inexplicable reason.

 

No, popping in from the warp peacefully to broadcast your intentions is not tactically savvy. The order was to sanction Prospero from the Emperor or if we take the account of Horus into account, not bother taking him back to Terra. The warning given through Kasper, had he been what everyone suspected, would have resulted in a much different result when the Wolves entered from the Warp.

 

When they came in from the warp there is mention of a full buckshot torpedo spread to knock out orbital defenses. So whether they were active or inactive, the Wolves came in exactly as they should have when approaching what is now considered a hostile Astartes home planet.

 

And you continue to armchair quarterback after the fact. You say how you would peacefully come in to broadcast surrender terms, knowing now that Kasper was not what he was suspected of being a direct conduit to Magnus. Russ even goes on to say that when he doesn't get a response that he takes that as no surrender. He also interprets the incident with the wulfen rune priest as further proof of no surrender.

 

Lets look at it realistically. If you were to take yourself out of the role as a reader, without the insight given to you by the author, you as Russ have the following information:

 

1. You have been ordered to destroy/or accept the surrender of the Thousand Sons and Magnus.

2. The Warmaster has told you not to bother accepting the surrender and just to destroy (depending on if you only follow the BL canon)

3. You have a direct conduit to Magnus. (You don't know that he is not a direct conduit yet everything points that is exactly what Kasper is because the Primordial Annihilator set it up that way)

4. Hoping to avoid bloodshed of your brother, you attempt to use the conduit to broker surrender.

5. No response.

6. Proceed as planned to destroy the Thousand Sons and Magnus.

 

But your premise is that Russ should have peacefully approached a planet he was ordered to sanction, by not only the Emperor and Horus, and offer terms again? And what if peacefully dropping in resulted in mass destruction of the Wolves fleet? Oh gee, guess that was my bad?

[Gree]

No, popping in from the warp peacefully to broadcast your intentions is not tactically savvy.

 

Why would he pop in peacefully? He has an entire battlefleet at his back if needed, standing before him are the deactivated defenses of the planet. Russ then waits an hour according to Prospero Burns, an hour with no enemy response.

 

No, popping in from the warp peacefully to broadcast your intentions is not tactically savvy. The order was to sanction Prospero from the Emperor or if we take the account of Horus into account, not bother taking him back to Terra. The warning given through Kasper, had he been what everyone suspected, would have resulted in a much different result when the Wolves entered from the Warp.

 

That all nice and good but how exactly does that matter? We already know Russ's intentions of warning Magnus.

 

When they came in from the warp there is mention of a full buckshot torpedo spread to knock out orbital defenses. So whether they were active or inactive, the Wolves came in exactly as they should have when approaching what is now considered a hostile Astartes home planet.

 

Which is a wise thing to do but what is your point?

 

And you continue to armchair quarterback after the fact.

 

No I don't actually. It's called in-universe logic.

 

And you continue to armchair quarterback after the fact. You say how you would peacefully come in to broadcast surrender terms, knowing now that Kasper was not what he was suspected of being a direct conduit to Magnus.

 

No, I go in uncertain that Hawser is a conduit. He might be, he might not be. But I also distrust the warp and am aware of fully safe non-warp communications aboard my ship. I enter the system catiously, prepped and preared for an invasion. I issue a surrender demand in the name of the Emperor and make it clear what authority I have.

 

If Magnus resists or does not reply then we go in and do the dirty work. If Magnus surrenders then we take him back to Terra. Simple as that.

 

Oh yea, and Russ already had the intent to broadcast surrender methods anyway. He just choose a poor way to do it.

 

Russ even goes on to say that when he doesn't get a response that he takes that as no surrender. He also interprets the incident with the wulfen rune priest as further proof of no surrender.

 

Because the warp is such a safe and easy thing to read. Why Russ choose to use the warp of all things rather than open up a comm channel to the planet after he arrived and safely surrounded it is mind-boggling.

 

Lets look at it realistically. If you were to take yourself out of the role as a reader, without the insight given to you by the author, you as Russ have the following information:

 

Well here's the kicker. I am looking at this realistically and not as the reader. Russ knows full well that the warp is an unreliable thing and he has safe communications to use. When coming into Prospero he has a full battlefleet behind him and a deactivated defenses before him. Surround the planet, prepar for orbital bombardment and order the planet to surrender or we destroy you from orbit.

 

1. You have been ordered to destroy/or accept the surrender of the Thousand Sons and Magnus.

 

Ok, sounds cool.

 

2. The Warmaster has told you not to bother accepting the surrender and just to destroy (depending on if you only follow the BL canon)

 

Okay, but me (Acting in-character for Russ) intends to ask Magnus to surrender anyway.

 

3. You have a direct conduit to Magnus. (You don't know that he is not a direct conduit yet everything points that is exactly what Kasper is because the Primordial Annihilator set it up that way)

 

I have something that might be a direct conduit to Magnus. I know me and my legion are well-versed in the warp, but Magnus might have sorceries that I don't know about. Plus it's the war. It's best not to get involved unless you absolutely have to use it.

 

4. Hoping to avoid bloodshed of your brother, you attempt to use the conduit to broker surrender.

 

Why would I use such a roundabout and unreliable method? I have something much safer and direct.

 

But your premise is that Russ should have peacefully approached a planet he was ordered to sanction, by not only the Emperor and Horus, and offer terms again? And what if peacefully dropping in resulted in mass destruction of the Wolves fleet? Oh gee, guess that was my bad?

 

It's a good thing I never suggested you go in peacefully then? Move in, suround the planet, power up weapons, get Magnus right were you want him and issue those demands afer gaining orbital superiority. Then make it clear you are acting with the authority of the Emperor. I never said peacefully dropping in.

 

If he resists or simply does not reply, open fire and glass the planet before sending in the Wolves to clear out what's left. If he accepts then take him back to Terra.

 

Russ should have never offered terms using such an unreliable method as Hawser in the first place. The warp is always unreliable. Russ of all people should know that.

 

Oh, yeah and Russ already peacefully broadcasted his intentions anyway (or at least he thought he did) why he would use Hawser is beyond me, but we know his intent.

[Hephaesteus]

If you look back on some of the Index Astartes articles there are two accounts of what happened;

 

IA: Thousand Sons:

 

The content of Magnus's warning was ignored completely. It is said the Emperor broke contact with such force that psychic wards throughout the Palace arced with lightning and shattered. At the Emperor's side stood Russ, quaking with barely-contained wrath at Magnus's actions. The Emperor turned to him, for he knew he could be counted upon to prosecute his next orders without restraint. He ordered the Space Wolves to be unleashed upon Magnus and the scholar-soldiers of Prospero.

 

IA: Space Wolves:

The Emperor refused to believe that Horus, his favoured son, would betray him, and he rose in anger against Magnus's warning. As the flame-haired Primarch opened a psychic connection to the Emperor, the Emperor was aghast at the extent of the research Magnus had conducted into heretical and blasphemous arts. In the Emperor's eyes, the Thousand Sons had probed too deeply into mysteries better left alone, willingly walking into the lair of the beast. Magnus' explanations did not pacify the Emperor, and Russ' worst suspicions were confirmed. At Russ' insistence, the Emperor was persuaded that Magnus was the traitor, not Horus. Horrified, the Emperor commanded Russ to leave immediately for the Thousand Sons' home world. The Wolf-King mustered his Legions about him, and prepared once more to go to war.

 

Prospero was once the very image of paradise. Great towers of ice and ivory studded the landscape, and beautiful gardens and peaceful lakes were abundant. Russ believed that this veneer of civilisation and culture hid a roiling foundation of evil. In his eyes, every scholar, scribe and sorcerer had delved too far into the mire of Chaos, had drunk too deeply from the blasphemous waters of forbidden knowledge. There was no option; the Wolf-King knew that he must follow the Emperor's command to the letter: cast down the Thousand Sons.

 

What the Black Library novels have done is retconned the orders given to Russ by the Emperor and what Horus told Russ.

 

One thing introduced in Battle of the Fang creates yet another stumbling block. When Magnus is standing before the statue of Russ, he indicates that Russ was actually begging Magnus to surrender. That the Wolf King was wracked with grief and was begging for Magnus to surrender.

 

Now this is coming from the horse's mouth so to speak which would indicate that the orders were to destroy and Russ was trying to get Magnus to surrender instead of facing destruction.

 

One other point is that Magnus chose to accept his punishment and that is why he was intent on standing by when the Wolves attacked. Since Magnus knew the Wolves were coming, why did he not just send a message to Russ that he intended to accept his punishment/surrender? If Magnus was being so pious and accepting of the consequences, why did he not stop his captains from fighting? If Magnus knew he was at fault, why did he then enter the battle?

 

 

Thanks very much Brother Ramses, I hadn't seen the IA articles and whilst they don't agree with how I thought it went; it is more revealing about what happened and makes me change my mind a little. Which is a shame, as I liked they way it went in my head. The tragedy and pathos of loyal brother being sent to bring home another loyal, but misguided, brother and help fix the mess he has made really worked for me. The idea that there are many points where the whole shebang could have been avoided or Horus defeated makes it enthralling, especially as we all know how it ends.

 

(off topic)

I am hoping at some point the big E gets some more face time to explain the pressure he is under (what with half his sons and armies coming at him, the chaos gods all conspiring against him and having who knows how many daemons trying to come in through the gate under the palace). Having steered humanity along the narrow path of survival only to be undone at the end; and then paying for it for the next 10k years as a tortured corpse on a broken life suport machine.

So far he has come across as an absentee parent who sort of brings it on himself. I can understand this from a story point of view, as events need to unfold, but it would be nice if it was down the the baddies rather than the goodies knocking themselves at every turn. If only he said to Horus; 'look I have made a webway gate, once it is done we can avoid the warp and be the dominant race in the galaxy. PS the warp is full of lying fuder muckers, who are definitely pissed at me for trying to destroy them.' Then again, there would be no 40k if that happened.

 

(slightly off topic, but getting back to it)

I think the problem (or greatest selling point depending on how you look at it) with the 40k universe is you can easily fit your own idea of how things happened in amongst so many different official texts, different characters viewpoints and when the fluff changes over time. This makes the whole universe that much more real, but also infuriating!

 

(on topic, eventually)

Obviously the thread has moved on a little since this this quote and it has been a good read, (if getting a little heated!). It didn't occur to me that Magnus might have ascended in his fight with Russ, I kind of thought he escaped with what was left of his legion and had no choice but to change sides after that. I assumed this would have been a slower process once they went to the planet of sorcerers. But you know what they say about people who assume!

I have read hammer and bolter 10 (as I know I wont be fast enough to get a copy of the whole of Aurelian) and read the chapters from ADB on that. (It was great by the way, as is all of ADB's stuff). I got the suggestion from that that Magnus was still Magnus, not daemon Magnus by the way Lorgar and he react. (I am trying hard not to spoiler that)!

 

Hephaesteus

[Inquisitor Engel]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

Just because there's nothing in "Prospero Burns" and "A Thousand Sons" about Horus' order to Russ doesn't mean it didn't happen (there in fact being evidence in "False Gods" that the conversation did happen) there's no given perspective in either book that would give us insight.

 

Hauser doesn't hang out with Russ constantly enough to be privy to Primarch-to-Primarch communications and Russ DOES give Magnus warning and the impression I got was that the intent was to capture and bring him to Terra. Something has changed by the time they got to Prospero.