2nd primarch

[thenightmare]

Ok sry ahead of time if this is out there already but i didnt see it.

So i was reading through the First Heretic and I think that it hinted at the 2nd primarch. When Argel Tal had the vision of the traitor primarchs

falling to the planets their were 10 pods and they all were described in there legion order 3.fulgrim 4.perturabo 8.curze..... except the first one.

I thought that it was the Lion at first but the primarch that A D-B descibed had black hair and the Lion has blond hair. So I thought that since the

rest of the primarchs were in order that it might be the second primarch and that the sm in the Outcast Dead might be from the second legion...

or maybe the second comes back in some way to help the traiters. Thoughts? (the vision is on pg 307 in the First Heretic)

[Grotsmasha]

Yep, it's a pretty clear hint at the second Primarch. There's been some serious hint dropping in a few of the latter HH novels, which gives me a glimmer of hope that soonish, maybe even 6th edition will see significant movement on the Lost and Purged Legions.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Grandmaster Anaziel]

I believe ADB said that was the infant Lion El.

As I recall he said that his hair changed color as he grew up. :huh:

[Morollan]

ADB posted this a while back:

 

For the record:

 

"The Lion - in the forests of Caliban; Fulgrim on the plains of Chemos; Perturabo, among the mountain fortresses of Olympia; Curze, during the eternal night of Nostramo (and the only primarch-child to instinctively reach for a weapon when he saw civilisation); Angron, his face awash in blood and screaming in pain even as an infant; Mortarion, in the pollution-thick wilds of Barbarus; Magnus the Red, in Tizca; Horus, on the worthless world of Cthonia; Lorgar landing by the river near the City of Grey Flowers on Colchis (a vague Moses analogy...); and Alpharius, in some nebulous unseeable mystery place."

 

 

And regarding the Lion's presence:

 

"Essentially, I envisage Caliban is a fairly tainted world, so the Chaos Gods have their talons into the Lion from the start - they bring him down onto Caliban, after all: a world plagued by Great Beasts and not exactly a million miles from the newborn Eye of Terror. He's one of the most obvious choices for corruption.

 

However, I don't subscribe to the notion that the Lion was tainted (or a traitor) himself. As he grew up, he was everything the Emperor needed him to be, sure. This vision represents right at the beginning, there was the potential for it all to go wrong. The Chaos Gods probably planned or hoped it would, but history evidently proved them wrong.

 

Of all the primarchs, I think the Lion needs to be credited with an almost unbelievable amount of willpower, even moreso than most of his brothers. He strikes me as one of the ones that Chaos could've dug their talons into very easily, but he apparently never suffered their touch at all."

 

And regarding his hair colour, I wanted the child that landed on Caliban to be very different to the medieval warlord-king that rose to throw off any taint within himself and conquer a whole world from Chaos with little more than pistols and swords. I dig the idea of this skinny, pale, dark-haired and hollow-eyed little wretch, finding his first steps on a Chaos world after being dragged through the warp, rising into a tanned, blonde statuesque Achilles to be pretty rad. The equivalent of Argel Tal looking into a painting and seeing how different the past was from the future. It's a mythological touch to the narrative, not a painting guide.

 

Hope that clears it up.

[TennisBall]

Interesting. Should that imply then that the two missing primarchs did not fall from grace as a result of chaos?

[Grotsmasha]

Interesting. Should that imply then that the two missing primarchs did not fall from grace as a result of chaos?

 

They are referred to by Dorn either individually or collectively as the Lost and the Purged, which indicates at least one made major do do.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Zincite]

There's been some serious hint dropping in a few of the latter HH novels, which gives me a glimmer of hope that soonish, maybe even 6th edition will see significant movement on the Lost and Purged Legions.

*Darth Vader* Noooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

That's one of the best mysteries of 40K. It cannot be revealed. Ever. Not even to try and satisfy this even-increasing need for awesome-killy-heros-in-space that Games Workshop is leaning towards to tempt 9-year olds into the game.

 

It would be like telling people that the Emperor is really, in fact, dead. Not hinting at it either way, just coming out and saying he's dead. It would ruin the whole 40K thing.

 

Once, Warhammer 40K had mysteries more than you could count. It was what made 2nd and 3rd Editions brilliant. Now we only have a few, and the two 'lost' legions are one of them. It needs to be preserved.

[PanzerSmurf]

I'm seriously with Zincite on this one. This has allways been one of those things that defined all the rest of GW's storylining about the legions. I don't mind them hinting, but please dont let them ruin it...

[TennisBall]

I'm seriously with Zincite on this one. This has allways been one of those things that defined all the rest of GW's storylining about the legions. I don't mind them hinting, but please dont let them ruin it...

They can always come up with more mysteries, time to fill in the origins of the sons of the god emperor.

[Castiel]

I'm seriously with Zincite on this one. This has allways been one of those things that defined all the rest of GW's storylining about the legions. I don't mind them hinting, but please dont let them ruin it...

They can always come up with more mysteries, time to fill in the origins of the sons of the god emperor.

 

No, I disagree. As much as I want to know, I prefer the mystery. Hints are good, but what really happen must always be a mystery!

[Saa]

Things the 40k mythos doesn't need;

 

An explanation of what happened to the missing Primarchs

 

A detailed exposition of the Emperors motivations

 

A book from the Emperors perspective

 

The return of the loyalist Primarchs (well maybe one so he could go nuts at what has happened in his absence and leave again in disgust)

 

Some things are richer when left to the imagination

 

Saa

[Doghouse]

I'd love to see them reveal one of the two legions at least. Mystery is all well and good but a major reveal like that would be really cool and make for a good stand alone novel.

[Inquisitor Engel]

They are referred to by Dorn either individually or collectively as the Lost and the Purged, which indicates at least one made major do do.

 

In "The First Heretic," the names they use to refer to them AREN'T capitalized.

 

That said, the Word Bearers discuss how awful whatever the Eleventh Legion Primarch did was so bad, it pains them to even talk about it.

[Liquidice]

In the lightning tower audio drama, Dorn mentioned that there were separate tragedies that forced the universal censor.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't see why we can't be told these mysteries. Many novels have big reveals in a series. It's hardly the defining magic of the 40K universe after all. If we want further,l original mystery we can easily have it.

 

I dunno, it just seems like a loose end the more the Heresy Series goes on. It's like reading the Dune series and not finding out what the Golden Path was.

 

Realistically, I believe the fates of the expunged Legions will never be revealed since I don't think anyone could come up with anything which is good enough to actually warrant such secrecy in comparison to the 9 Traitor Legions. I mean, Horus turned traitor and a vassal for the Chaos Gods, the Chaos Daemons assaulted Terra and murdered millions etc and the majority of Imperial Citizens know little or nothing about it, yet we know about it. Just what could the 2nd and 11th Primarchs have done which is worse than that, so bad not even the omnipotent audience are allowed to know? :)

[Saa]

Just what could the 2nd and 11th Primarchs have done which is worse than that, so bad not even the omnipotent audience are allowed to know? :huh:

 

They insisted on wearing knitted power armour. And skipping.

[TennisBall]

Just what could the 2nd and 11th Primarchs have done which is worse than that, so bad not even the omnipotent audience are allowed to know? :huh:

 

They insisted on wearing knitted power armour. And skipping.

'Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?' Actually I don't know the answer to that but I'd imagine that's where the wool for knitted power armour comes from.

[plasman]

Just what could the 2nd and 11th Primarchs have done which is worse than that, so bad not even the omnipotent audience are allowed to know? :D

 

They insisted on wearing knitted power armour. And skipping.

 

No, they just turned hippie. Promoting peace & love must have been a crime far worst than any other heresy.

In the happy peaceful universe of the far future there is only love ... :D

[Castiel]

They complained that the Emperor didn't hug them enough as children, and were systmatically purged for being softies!

[Ring-around-the-roses]

The two traitor primarchs came into contact with the xenos. One of them was found keeping a eldar harem, and the other kept tyrranic pets. He named his Carnifex 'Binky Flycatcher', and it killed a whole great company singlehandedly by licking them with a bio-plasma tongue. Leman Russ then went to war, to cover his shame, and the Emperor joined in, tired of the mess it made of his favourite snacks. The second primarch died with a cry of "I admit it, he ate the last slice of pizz, i'm sorrrrrryyyyyyyy......."

[Jareddm]

Going by the personality descriptions of the missing primarchs presented here:

 

http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/X.html

(I know it's not canon, but it's good enough for me)

 

I'd guess that one of the missing primarchs may have been guilty of gross incompetence. Maybe some series of poorly-thought commands that led to the whole legion being swallowed up in some warp storm, leaving only the primarch and a small handful of stragglers. But unlike other small legions like the Thousand Sons or the Emperor's Children, this was entirely due to the negligence and poor judgement of the primarch, something I doubt the Emperor would stand for in one of his sons.

[Arkangilos]

I don't see why we can't be told these mysteries. Many novels have big reveals in a series. It's hardly the defining magic of the 40K universe after all. If we want further,l original mystery we can easily have it.

 

I dunno, it just seems like a loose end the more the Heresy Series goes on. It's like reading the Dune series and not finding out what the Golden Path was.

 

Realistically, I believe the fates of the expunged Legions will never be revealed since I don't think anyone could come up with anything which is good enough to actually warrant such secrecy in comparison to the 9 Traitor Legions. I mean, Horus turned traitor and a vassal for the Chaos Gods, the Chaos Daemons assaulted Terra and murdered millions etc and the majority of Imperial Citizens know little or nothing about it, yet we know about it. Just what could the 2nd and 11th Primarchs have done which is worse than that, so bad not even the omnipotent audience are allowed to know? :tu:

 

Well, it could have been the magnetude. The other two legions happened in more isolation, without tearing the Galaxy apart, so few might have actually experienced it, where as EVERYONE experienced the Horus Heresy. It is hard to cover up something everyone saw :D

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I don't see why we can't be told these mysteries. Many novels have big reveals in a series. It's hardly the defining magic of the 40K universe after all. If we want further,l original mystery we can easily have it.

 

I dunno, it just seems like a loose end the more the Heresy Series goes on. It's like reading the Dune series and not finding out what the Golden Path was.

 

Realistically, I believe the fates of the expunged Legions will never be revealed since I don't think anyone could come up with anything which is good enough to actually warrant such secrecy in comparison to the 9 Traitor Legions. I mean, Horus turned traitor and a vassal for the Chaos Gods, the Chaos Daemons assaulted Terra and murdered millions etc and the majority of Imperial Citizens know little or nothing about it, yet we know about it. Just what could the 2nd and 11th Primarchs have done which is worse than that, so bad not even the omnipotent audience are allowed to know? ;)

 

Well, it could have been the magnetude. The other two legions happened in more isolation, without tearing the Galaxy apart, so few might have actually experienced it, where as EVERYONE experienced the Horus Heresy. It is hard to cover up something everyone saw :lol:

Exactly. Besides, I think people would put two and two together when they see a chaos army and are told that half the legions records were deleted :) However, the other two legions have had no effect on the year 40k (at least, that they were given credit for).

[Brother Evar]

Things the 40k mythos doesn't need;

 

An explanation of what happened to the missing Primarchs

 

A detailed exposition of the Emperors motivations

 

A book from the Emperors perspective

 

The return of the loyalist Primarchs (well maybe one so he could go nuts at what has happened in his absence and leave again in disgust)

 

Some things are richer when left to the imagination

 

Saa

 

I agree as any of the above would kill the mystery of 40K.

 

Any loyalist primarch returning, even if it was the White Scars primarch would not stand to see the Imperialum in its current state and would abolich the Eclesiarchy(?), disolve the High Lords, get Mars back into line as the inovative organization it once was and re-instate the Legions or his own one at least. This would completely stuff up the whole current 40K timeline. No returning primarch would leave without changing anything the Imperialum is today.

[Captain Idaho]

Any loyalist primarch returning, even if it was the White Scars primarch would not stand to see the Imperialum in its current state and would abolich the Eclesiarchy(?), disolve the High Lords, get Mars back into line as the inovative organization it once was and re-instate the Legions or his own one at least. This would completely stuff up the whole current 40K timeline. No returning primarch would leave without changing anything the Imperialum is today.

 

Maybe, or maybe it would create a new universe full of opportunities! Likely the Primarch would be disappointed but the balance of power is still firmly in the power of the Imperium. After all, the Adeptus Mechanicus were not subservient to the Primarchs, only the Emperor. Same goes for the Navigators and Astra-Telepathica.

 

Well, it could have been the magnetude. The other two legions happened in more isolation, without tearing the Galaxy apart, so few might have actually experienced it, where as EVERYONE experienced the Horus Heresy. It is hard to cover up something everyone saw

 

And yet the majority of the Imperium knows nothing of the Traitor Legions...