tiberium40k Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Earlier today, I saw this on the Black Library`s website: Corax and the few remaining Raven Guard escaped the massacre at Isstvan V but must now tend their wounds and replenish their numbers before they can return to the fray. Listless and distraught, the primarch returns to Terra to seek the Emperor’s counsel and is guided to the ancient genetech used to create the first Space Marines. While he seeks to rebuild his Legion and seek vengeance upon the Emperor’s Children for their betrayal, Corax is unaware that the shadowy agents of the Alpha Legion move among the Raven Guard, and that his own survival has merely been part of a far greater plan. It would seem from this and The Face of Treachery that the only reason the Raven Guard exist is because the Alpha Legion allowed them to survive... Am I the only one who has a problem with this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kizzdougs Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Raven Guard are my favourite loyalist legion/chapter and i don't have a problem with it. Perhaps it will go some way to explaining the drastic measures taken by Corax and the oft tragic results. Plus a little intrigue is never bad :lol: . I can imagine the whole 'Alpha Legion did it' plot will get very old very quickly if it is over used. However, if it is used well and sparingly throughout the series i could live with it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2846659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 well, its already been told that their escape from the dropsite mass was not of their own doing, so this isnt a huge suprise. but as kizzdougs says, sprinkling the AL everywhere is going to get old fast. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2846670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Wait, where has the Alpha Legion been sprinkled anywhere in the Horus Heresy yet, except The Face of Treachery and Legion? Am I missing something? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2846673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 No, I think he's saying that if they start having every thing be an Alpha Legion plot, it will get old. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2846685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted August 14, 2011 Author Share Posted August 14, 2011 well, its already been told that their escape from the dropsite mass was not of their own doing, so this isnt a huge suprise. I don`t remember that being said before The Face of Trechery. but as kizzdougs says, sprinkling the AL everywhere is going to get old fast. I agree, but the thing that bothers me here is rather the fact the entire Raven Guard fluff has been ruined so the Alpha Legion could flaunt their comic book schemeing abilities, and I haven`t seen anyone point this out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2846797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 I agree, but the thing that bothers me here is rather the fact the entire Raven Guard fluff has been ruined so the Alpha Legion could flaunt their comic book schemeing abilities, and I haven`t seen anyone point this out. Care to elaborate how exactly a blurb from the BL website equates to the entire Raven Guard fluff being ruined? Have you read the actual book and so know that it is indeed ruined by the book and so aren't just overreacting ever so slightly? I think you're being a little bit over zealous in claiming that the book ruins the Raven Guard's fluff, based solely on a blurb on the BL website (which is just a little silly considering some of the past blurbs that they've had up). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2846823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninja6fett Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 I'm a little torn on this as well. On one hand what I got from face of Treachery was that MORE RG survived than would have otherwise, they wouldn't have ALL been killed. On the other THE ALPHA LEGION DID IT, is almost the new C'tan did it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2846826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted August 14, 2011 Author Share Posted August 14, 2011 Care to elaborate how exactly a blurb from the BL website equates to the entire Raven Guard fluff being ruined? As I said in the OP, it isn`t just the blurb, its the blurb and The Face of Treachery that directly state the Raven Guard owe their very exsistance to the whims of a traitor legion. See how its ruined now? Have you read the actual book and so know that it is indeed ruined by the book and so aren't just overreacting ever so slightly? I think you're being a little bit over zealous in claiming that the book ruins the Raven Guard's fluff, based solely on a blurb on the BL website (which is just a little silly considering some of the past blurbs that they've had up). Nice attitude, but did you actually see me claiming the book ruined it or just stating a major retcon concerning the RG ruined its fluff? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2846927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 As I said in the OP, it isn`t just the blurb, its the blurb and The Face of Treachery that directly state the Raven Guard owe their very exsistance to the whims of a traitor legion. See how its ruined now? No, I don't. Because no one has read the book yet, and there are multiple possibilities where your assumption will be proven wrong. How about the Alpha Legion, at least right now, still is loyal and is attempting to help the other Loyalist Legions from the inside. A brother saving a brother is not 'the whims of a traitor legion'. We could both be wrong though, because I'm making an assumption about a book I've never read yet as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2847059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Care to elaborate how exactly a blurb from the BL website equates to the entire Raven Guard fluff being ruined? As I said in the OP, it isn`t just the blurb, its the blurb and The Face of Treachery that directly state the Raven Guard owe their very exsistance to the whims of a traitor legion. See how its ruined now? "Ruined" is probably too harsh a word; "another side of the story presented" might be a more accurate assessment. The survival of the Raven Guard after Istvaan was always due to the whims of something else; broken as they were by the end of it, it was evident that some outside force allowed them to escape at all. After Istvaan, when they're the barest shade of a Legion, they were going to be at the mercy of more powerful agencies, both friendly and enemy, to be able to continue their existence in any capacity. I'd say it illustrates perfectly just how badly they got mauled that it required the nebulous motivation of another Legion entirely to enable their escape and continuation, no matter how personally grating the survivors might find such a scenario playing out were they even aware of it in the first place, which I doubt strongly. From the Raven Guard POV, their breakout from Istvaan was pure luck and timing and apparently all due to some guy's semi-prophetic bad dream that launched the rescue attempt in the first place, not due to machinations of the Alpha Legion, and that they're blind to the Alpha Legion's part in that doesn't detract from that belief. It's not like the Alpha Legion is going to send a bill to Deliverance claiming there's some sort of debt involved, so it's a story no one but the Alpha Legion would even know, and no one would believe them even if they talked because no one could corroborate it: the tree that falls in the forest with no one around to hear it does make a sound, but if no one's listening then no one even knows the tree fell in the first place. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2847081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Bwhahaha. My complaint is it hasn't happened to a loyalist legion that considers itself so damn awesome. Instead of the reasonably cool less popular raven guard. The litmus test for things like this is to ask yourself, would this ever happen to a big seller like Space wolves, blood angels, dark angels etc.. The answer should tell you if you have been hard done by. The answer of course is that this would never happen to the Space Wolves, because it would make them lame and pathetic. (If you argue Tsons in battle of the fang, I point you to the fact that Magnus eventually got rolled like a chump at the end.) But none of us have read the book, so perhaps the Alpha Legion will be foiled and run away screaming "Next time gadget, Next time!" This is actually what I suspect will happen. At least the Iron Hands by being so unpopular escape things like this. Their Primarch is already dead, and they cannot be sullied. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2847112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
augustmanifesto Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 I wouldnt take that publishers blurb to mean the RG are totally ensnared in a AL plot. It's likely more complex than that. Besides, who's to say the plot doesn't back-fire and later demonstrate the foolishness of the AL? :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2847129 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 I have no problem with it. Then again, the new hydra brand on my hip has been chafing something fierce lately. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2847148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 I have no problem with it. Then again, the new hydra brand on my hip has been chafing something fierce lately. HA! That's great. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2847169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valtonis Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 i would take BL blurbs with a grain of salt, remember the blurb on Prospero Burns? yeah, what BS that was. you read the blurb and think it would be SW vs TS fromt eh viewpoint of the SW and have alot of battles as they burn down Prospero and what did we get? some bloody diary of some worthless human but i would be pissed off if they ruined the Raven Guard Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2847282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 As I said in the OP, it isn`t just the blurb, its the blurb and The Face of Treachery that directly state the Raven Guard owe their very exsistance to the whims of a traitor legion. See how its ruined now? No, I don't, I see you overreacting yet again. As far as I'm concerned, and I'm sure many others agree with me, The Face of Treachery did nothing to ruin the Raven Guard's fluff, it throws up some new questions but you'd be hard pressed to legitimately call that ruining anything. Nice attitude, but did you actually see me claiming the book ruined it or just stating a major retcon concerning the RG ruined its fluff? I read a post that equated to you bemoaning the ruination of the Raven Guard fluff based on a BL blurb and an overestimation of the extent to which the AL's role in FoT allows the Raven Guard to survive... I guess the inbound RG fleet would've played no role and gotten nobody offworld otherwise. As I stated in my previous post, and as others have since reiterated, equating the blurb for DL and a skewed interpretation of FoT to the ruination of the Raven Guard's fluff, without having actually read DL, is overreacting. Its that simple. So to answer your question from the first post, yes you are likely one of the few people who has a problem with it, since most (reasonable) people will hold off until the book is actually available and can be read before leaping to judge it's impact on the RG's fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2847327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted August 14, 2011 Author Share Posted August 14, 2011 So to answer your question from the first post, yes you are likely one of the few people who has a problem with it, since most (reasonable) people will hold off until the book is actually available and can be read before leaping to judge it's impact on the RG's fluff. Reasonable? You imply I`m an unreasoneble person based on the few posts I have posted here? Really? Damn, not liking Prospero Buarns makes me a simpleton, and posting an opinion (that could be wrong, I admit) makes me an unreasonable person? Bolter and Chainsword.com, I thought better of you. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2847391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Don't judge B&C based on your issues with one individual. Not B&C's fault. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2847398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 dont worry, he is just being unreasonable. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2847405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted August 14, 2011 Author Share Posted August 14, 2011 Don't judge B&C based on your issues with one individual. Not B&C's fault. I`ve actually had issues with several memebrs of this board, this is just the latest example. Frankly, I have discovered disagreeing with someone on the finer points of TFH makes me a bufoon, and sarcasm is seriousely frowned upon here, and telling people the Anschluss happened before WW2 (makes sense in context) makes me pedantic, which is a big no-no. That and all the bile thrown around whenever I said I didn`t like PB, plus some other incidents, led me to believe this kind of thing is accepted on this site, hence my comment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2847408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Reasonable? You imply I`m an unreasoneble person based on the few posts I have posted here? Really? No. Let me state things quite clearly for you, what I'm suggesting (if not stating outright) is that overreacting to the DL blurb and the harmless revelation in FoT and claiming that it has ruined the RG fluff is not a reasonable reaction, waiting until you've read a book and so have some idea whats actually in it before you judge its impact on the fluff on the other hand is. Damn, not liking Prospero Buarns makes me a simpleton, I have no idea who would call you a simpleton simply because you dislike a book, but I would qualify that as a far more unreasonable reaction than your's. and posting an opinion (that could be wrong, I admit) makes me an unreasonable person? Bolter and Chainsword.com, I thought better of you. :P The entire premise of the OP is that the blurb and (harmless) revelations from FoT equates to the RG fluff being ruined, to jump to that conclusion based on very limited (practically nil in fact) knowledge of what will actually be in DL is not what I would call a reasonable reaction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2847410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 I'm sorry to hear that, but it still doesn't make it right that you judge a group of people because of a bad incident with a few others. If it gets bad, or name calling happens, message a Moderator, that's why they're there. I've had many incidents where I have been treated poorly by another individual on this site in the middle of a topic over the years; I just walk away from it, and remember to avoid topic's with that individual in it again. Be the bigger person, and do the same. If it's a poor disagreement, avoid the topic. If it's offensive, report it. I've only ever had to report once due to an offensive comment, but I'll do it again if I feel it's neccessary. Just walk away. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2847417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 @WLK: Yeeeeeaaaaaaahhhh!!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2847428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 @WLK: Yeeeeeaaaaaaahhhh!!!! It was such a perfect setup i couldnt resist. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236286-deliverance-lost-summary/#findComment-2847431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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