Grand Master Neo Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 in the epilogue it clearly covers the fall of luther and how he came to find the ways of chaos, but, is it just me or does it hint even more that the lion knew before horus (extremely advanced tactical acumen of course) what he was going to do and planned to steal the wrongful glory from him? (trying to not give too much away to those that have not read the book yet) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAG42 Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I think it was more he found out what Horus had ordered from that foundry and he figured out what the purpose would be for them now. Also later writing shows the Lions loyalty is not in question. edit for content. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2852243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Neo Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 which later writings are they? my local store is a bit scarce on dark angels novels Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2852376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I think DAG42 refers to "Savage Weapons" short story by ADB. You can find it in the "Age of Darkness" anthology. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2852387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Neo Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 i just find it odd in fallen angels how the lion is supposedly that smart and can predict everybodies moves before they make them but was discussing the use of the seige engines that horus had commisioned with the primarch of the iron warriors and tells him to make good use of them as and when needed Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2852401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Although I can not read your hidden text (haven't figured out how to do it with the iPad yet) I assume you are referring to the discussion with Perturabo. ***Spoilers*** In short it was a ridiculous ending in an otherwise OK book. And the ending is everything. The Lion is portrayed as a fool that not only deals with a Traitor but also attempts to broker a petty political deal... Now, one can argue, how was the Lion supposed to know Perturabo had turned? Well the answer to that is: he didn't have to know! All he had to do was to be cautious. I mean, he knew Horus was a traitor and was also aware of the events on Istvaan V. So he knew that more than one Primarchs had turned. If I was in a similar position I'd trust no one unless it was proved which side he fought. And im not a Primarch!!! And the Lion is suposed to be the really strategy master. By that I mean he can see the big picture better than other of his kind. And that is saying something. And what does he do? Makes a deal because Perturabo seemed like a decent guy, giviving him battlefield assets that are supposed to be battle winners (enough to justify his presence personally) and tries to win his favor in the transaction! I mean really! The entire bracn of the story involving the Lion could have been handled by an exceptional Captain. Brave, strong and with an exceptional tactical acumen. Where the big picture strategy comes into play, where you'd expect to see the Lion excel, well he fails miserably. To the point that makes you wonder what was the point of this story? To show Perturabo is smarter than the Lion? A big disappointment overall. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2852414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJB Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Although I can not read your hidden text (haven't figured out how to do it with the iPad yet) I assume you are referring to the discussion with Perturabo. On my iPhone i copy and paste the hidden text into the Notes application - only way I know that makes it visable Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2852417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAG42 Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I think DAG42 refers to "Savage Weapons" short story by ADB. You can find it in the "Age of Darkness" anthology. Thank you Capt. Semper. I should have put that in for him, would have been helpful....thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2852452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 @Keith: thx, I'll try that next time! @DAG42: Hey no prob :P. I certainly hope BL will show the Lion in a better light in coming books... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2852578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Hail Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I think this was discussed before one here... The one problem with the lion is that he was not a people person. He sent back part of the legion because he saw first hand what the power of the warp could do, so he sent those back that would be best effective, he just though they would figure it out on their own. Insteed they thought they were being punished and fell to choas, opinion. The deal with Perturabo was before istivain i believe (don't have book next to me and kinda foggy on timing, but do remember that is why Emperor's children built the defenses on istivain), and was used to show case why the lion was not warmaster (take with salt, my opinion). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2852619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Fact is nobody at BL or GW knows how to deal with a pre hearsay dark angles book without the "future" getting in the way. Mr thorpe book has thrown a wrench into the fluff of the legion/chapters history the lion chaffed well russ stoped to free worlds on the way to terra but because one marine suggest,s the lion was waiting to see which side won the chapter has been painted as unloyal. I feel the HH novels well not treat the legion or the chapters well they have failed to show the primarch in his true glory up to this point they have also failede to show him as anything but a demi god with minor failings so i well cross my fingers and hope that the next books well show the legion and the primarch in a better light Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2852744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 ***SPOILERS*** The HH is not really supposed to be about "look how badarse my Legion is", but about the great failings of the Legions(both Traitor and Loyalist) which allowed the HH to get as far as it did, and then, in the finality of things, to showcase the heroic stand of the Loyalists. Along the way, the victories of the Dark Angels probably won't be gone into all that much, but the development of the schisms within the Legion(Calibanite vs. Terran. Lion vs. Luther, other Primarchs vs. Lion) will most definitely be put to the fore. We are more likely to see all of that, intermixed with notable heroics and treacheries of individuals/groups. Very space opera-ish. :P Also, while tactically brilliant, Lion is not prescient. Also, when the guy in charge -the Emperor/Warmaster- sends you out to the arse end of the universe to carry the light of the Imperium forth in the Great Crusade, to an area it legitimately needs to be carried too, you follow orders. And so Lion followed orders. Roboutte Gulliman and the Ultramarines followed similar orders, and were sent off to an out of the way area that legitimately needed to be brought into the Imperial fold too. And so the Dark Angels and the Ultramarines, led by the two most tactically brilliant commanders other than for the Warmaster himself, were dealt with. Doesn't mean that Lion and Roboutte were stupid, just that they weren't insubordinate. Also, the situation hadn't developed much at that point. Those siege engines could be used for anything, though anyone could see that they could be used not only against any enemy fortifications, but against Imperial fortifications as well. There is no more reason for these siege engines to be a big red flag than certain Titan Legions being on very good terms with certain of the Legions(i.e. Imeprator Titans kinda wreck cities rather well, and these siege engines were not of that class of fighting machine). Still doesn't mean one can't consider all possibilities. After all, Lion had just dealt with infighting order of knights on Caliban, let alone one that was supposedly righteous but who were traitors to everything the knights stood for. That might make a tactical genius tend to second guess things now and again. :) Still doesn't indicate knowledge of something though, just knowledge of a possibility. But he has his orders, and a mission to accomplish. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2852842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 ****Spoilers all over***** Fact is nobody at BL or GW knows how to deal with a pre hearsay dark angles book without the "future" getting in the way. Mr thorpe book has thrown a wrench into the fluff of the legion/chapters history the lion chaffed well russ stoped to free worlds on the way to terra but because one marine suggest,s the lion was waiting to see which side won the chapter has been painted as unloyal. I think that as it was Astelan that made the above claim, it was well played by Mr. Thorpe. A recognized Fallen, and one among the most hardcore ones at that, making such an outrageous suggestion meant that the reader could make up his own mind. Do you believe the Traitor? Then Dark Angels deserve an even darker shade. But if you did not like this route you could always discredit this since, well, Astelan was a Fallen. And it is the way of Chaos to lie ;). And it appears that he was after all, lying! I feel the HH novels well not treat the legion or the chapters well they have failed to show the primarch in his true glory up to this point they have also failede to show him as anything but a demi god with minor failings so i well cross my fingers and hope that the next books well show the legion and the primarch in a better light Certainly hope so too brother :). ***SPOILERS*** The HH is not really supposed to be about "look how badarse my Legion is", but about the great failings of the Legions(both Traitor and Loyalist) which allowed the HH to get as far as it did, and then, in the finality of things, to showcase the heroic stand of the Loyalists. Along the way, the victories of the Dark Angels probably won't be gone into all that much, but the development of the schisms within the Legion(Calibanite vs. Terran. Lion vs. Luther, other Primarchs vs. Lion) will most definitely be put to the fore. We are more likely to see all of that, intermixed with notable heroics and treacheries of individuals/groups. Very space opera-ish. :P Well in my view HH series is about presenting the Primarchs. Not the Legion. It is the first that defines the latter not vice versa. The Legion failings you mention (and I fully agree with you they need to be shown) are the failings of the Primarchs not the odd sergeant. I certainly hope that the series explore further the Lion's relations with other Primarchs because so far he has been outsmarted by Perturabo, and has been outfought in one-on-one combat by Curze (I know it was a close call and ended in a "forced" draw but to me he lost this fight). I also look forward for more stuff on the shcism inside the Legion. Also, while tactically brilliant, Lion is not prescient. Also, when the guy in charge -the Emperor/Warmaster- sends you out to the arse end of the universe to carry the light of the Imperium forth in the Great Crusade, to an area it legitimately needs to be carried too, you follow orders. And so Lion followed orders. Roboutte Gulliman and the Ultramarines followed similar orders, and were sent off to an out of the way area that legitimately needed to be brought into the Imperial fold too. And so the Dark Angels and the Ultramarines, led by the two most tactically brilliant commanders other than for the Warmaster himself, were dealt with. Of course he did - following orders that is. I am not arguing that the Lion should have guessed that Horus will turn. This is Magnus territory and, well, he delivered. Besides we know the Lion was out of position during the Heresy even before we read any HH books. It is included in the pre-existing lore. Same for UMs. Doesn't mean that Lion and Roboutte were stupid, just that they weren't insubordinate. Also, the situation hadn't developed much at that point. As I said above for DAs (and UMs) being out of position was perfectly natural and ok. Of course they were in deep space, they were doing the Crusade thing at the time. How can that make them "stupid"? Those siege engines could be used for anything, though anyone could see that they could be used not only against any enemy fortifications, but against Imperial fortifications as well. There is no more reason for these siege engines to be a big red flag than certain Titan Legions being on very good terms with certain of the Legions(i.e. Imeprator Titans kinda wreck cities rather well, and these siege engines were not of that class of fighting machine). Still doesn't mean one can't consider all possibilities. After all, Lion had just dealt with infighting order of knights on Caliban, let alone one that was supposedly righteous but who were traitors to everything the knights stood for. That might make a tactical genius tend to second guess things now and again. ;) Still doesn't indicate knowledge of something though, just knowledge of a possibility. But he has his orders, and a mission to accomplish. The construction of these Siege Engines was ordered by Horus, and the Lion knew it. Once he realized that Horus had turned he put one and one together and thought, correctly, to seize them or else Horus would use them against the Imperium in this sector or even Terra itself (remains to be seen). He also shows in the book a good measure of personal bravery in the battlefield and the ability to comprehend the flux of the battle (that is the battle to secure the Siege Engines) on three dimensions. But as I said above this is something you'd expect from a Captain level character as well. Why was he there personally? Because he realized the importance of the Engines. So the Engines were so important to warrant his personal presence in the battlefield and what does he do once he secures them? Hands them over to another Primarch! Did he have a reason to assume said Primarch was loyal, when the most loyal of all had turned? No he did not. He just thought that it was a good hand to play in a political game that was waaaay too premature. This right there shows strategic short-sightness, again something you'd expect a Captain to have not the Primarch that was supposed to be the strategic genius even among Primarchs. So the book in my view diminished the Lion to just a brave fool, unable to see the big picture or at least be cautious about it. And I think this is wrong and out of character for the Lion. I haven't read all HH novels. But I think the portrayal of Horus, Magnus and Russ was a very correct one. Not so for the Lion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2852935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Neo Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 i'm guessing that as shown in nemiel's thoughts that without luther to read people for him that the lion will trust no-one and anyone at the same time . although the lion is a tactical mastermind, politics really doesn't play to his strong suit. went back and re-read that chapter. this is just what i got from it thinking back Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2852957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Indeed none can say that the lion is a political beast.I still remember Horus speaking to Petronela Vivar about his brother primarchs.He portraid the Lion as a silent man with few wards,a feral and cold calculating look,hardly the role of a politian.We can assume that he wasnt very good in his scocial graces as well,but more than a man of action.He was a general not a governor,the oposite of Guilliman. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2852997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azoriel Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 i'm guessing that as shown in nemiel's thoughts that without luther to read people for him that the lion will trust no-one and anyone at the same time . although the lion is a tactical mastermind, politics really doesn't play to his strong suit. went back and re-read that chapter. this is just what i got from it thinking back Fluff from Codex: Angels of Death, however, stated that the Lion hardly had words with any of his brothers at all (something that got him and Leman Russ on the wrong foot pretty quick). Not knowing who to trust would be true to the Lion's persona, but trusting too much doesn't really fit his paranoid nature. Perhaps if he had a talk with the Emperor, who said, "Yeah, I know you have issues with your brother, who's always smells of dog and suddenly became extra competitive with you for no apparent reason... I'd really like it, though, if you tried to make friends with a least some of your other brothers, you know, connect with them a little" and then went and did that with Perturbo, the fortifications expert , that might make a little more sense... But none of the novels gave us anything like that to go off of. I, too, felt that the start of the book almost implied the Lion had a contingency ready for Horus going traitor , with the Lion not missing a beat and immediately knowing his course of action when he heard the news. If the author played it up more, I would have very much liked that (again, portraying to the Lion's paranoid nature)... But they didn't, and then the ending just ruined it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2853078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Well a man who got raised in a forest and had to survive many years without speaking a single word cant be that trusting.And even afterwards such scars leave you some quirks.An innate misstrust for anyone would be a minor quirk if you ask me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2853200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shintuhadoken Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Hello brothers, its been a long time since i've posted here due to losing interest in the universe but as i've started to get back into it (thanks to my nephew taking an interest) and these books have been an interesting new outlook on the lore that has caused me to reply to this thread. I find it interesting that you choose to view the ending as possibly dealing with traitors, and its an approach that i hadn't considered. When i read through the book i took the actions the Lion took more at face value. The Lions forces were few but secure with the seige engines, there was no way for the traitor forces to take the engines without significant loses. The Iron warriors fleet still had to appear loyal, so having the traitors fleet fall back meant they wouldn't lose anymore marines and there would be no chance the seige engines could be damaged. Handing the engines over to Perturbo would have helped the Loyalist forces break open Horus's defences on Isstvann VI so reducing casualties, and handing them over ot the siege master seems the right thing to do. Perturbo invited the Lion to Isstvan with him, as a possible manouver to remove the Lion as a future threat. But as he did only have a few forces it would be better to re-group his forces and it would be in the Iron Warriors best interests to let them go that way they get the siege engines with no loss of marines as well as keeping there own agenda under cover for the moment. Yes it is true that the lion made some obvious political moves, but from my point of view it he was looking at Horus being defeated and done with at Isstvann, I don't think it would have occoured to him or anyone really (well maybe the Emperor) that three more of his brothers would fall. It is nice that these books allow for such a level of interpetation, to me the Lion underestimate Horus's infulence on his brother and nothing more but it is nice to have other viewpoints to see these events from. **Edit: Stupid Spoiler tags :(** Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2853280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azoriel Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 **Edit: Stupid Spoiler tags :(** Just to warn you, you double posted, too. ;) Ah, you caught it already - nevermind. =( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2853287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shintuhadoken Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Yeah sorry about that, first time using the forums in five years and i fail twice in one post. Not a very good restart on my part :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2853299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Neo Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 I find it interesting that you choose to view the ending as possibly dealing with traitors, and its an approach that i hadn't considered. When i read through the book i took the actions the Lion took more at face value. this is exactly what i did first time round but thinking back on it and how two faced the universe is turning out to be it started to make me think that maybe the lion was being two-faced with his own legion while dealing with those that he mat have secretly known were turning to the wrong side during the heresy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2854443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Astelan wasn't necessarily a liar. He could simply have just bought into the grand lie of Luther and everyone else. Basically, he was a dupe in the grandest sense of the word. His devotion was questionable, his faith in his Primarch and the Emperor himself(who pretty much said "This is your leader now, Astelan.") weak. Primed and ready to be a tool of Chaos. Astelan also didn't know that the DA have Luther's story/confession straight from Luther's own lips. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2854747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 True, Astelan in his mind might beleive what he said to be true. He had a limited view of what was happening outside of Caliban and he was under the influence of Luther. Besides the most dangerous lies are the ones where the liar beleive himself to be talking the truth. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2854776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAG42 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 I think that the Watchers are going to be showed as playing a big role in the young Lions life on Caliban. Before Luthor and the others found him. Remember he doesn't speak about his early yrs. The Watchers may have revealed the fact about their homeworld being doomed, like they did to the Librarian..(forgot his name now....damn). That also his early yrs play at how bad he is at judging people character. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2854841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droma Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Just re-read the chapter and here is my view. 1. We already know the Lion is bad at reading people. 2. He's smug in what he thinks is his ultimate victory over Horus. 3. He's got no reason at all to suspect that any more Legions went traitor. You've got to remember that this was already a huge betrayal but they had thought it was still small only 3 legions. To think that even more had turned just wouldn't have entered their minds before the dropsite massacre. 4. Perturabo is still acting loyal at this point and is flattering the Lion putting him at ease. This compounds the first 3 points. 5. It makes good tactical sense to turn them over to Perturabo to use against Horus. 6. The Lion is very loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium, he out says this. He thinks Horus is going to be put down quickly and for the crusade to continue going forward after this it will need a strong leader. Thus he's trying to score political allies for afterward. Who knows which other of his brothers he made political deals with at some point. 7. Luther isn't there. Without Luther the Lion is just a bad politician. Great general, bad politician. Going from all that I really think we can take the last chapter at face value and assume the Lion thought he was doing the right thing. Who knows though. Things may flip on their head once again the next time we get a HH DA book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236622-fallen-angels-novel/#findComment-2858104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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