Death Company Analysis - Are you scared?

[vahouth]

Thanks for the input Snorri! <_<

[Midnightmare]

All I can say Snorri is wow nice analysis (very nice presentation again!!) I'm finding with my Rhino mounted squad that it gets shot up rather quickly leaving them foot slogging so I'm heading for the LRC camp me thinks.

 

btw I love how you ignore your own advice and go jump packs; lots of fun esp with Lemmy <_<

[Brother Landrain]

Nice article.

 

I think you are missing several important tactical/strategic aspects of the Death Company...

 

First is Commander Dante: His ability to grant hit and run to the squad he is with should not be overlooked. Especially when Hit and Run is 3d6 any direction regardless of terrain/interveening units. And it is NOT controlled by Rage.

 

Second is using a Bolter whenever you add a Powerfist: ALways do this, it is free, and you lose no attacks at also. Also the bolter has a 24" range. Rage does not say you must shoot the closest target, just move/run/charge the closest target. However... If you have a choice of targets to shoot, you may use that bolter to shoot a target that is not the closest target. You must then charge that target, not the closest! This allows you to better pick your targets. Skipping past that vehicle and instead targeting the squad right behind it.

 

Third is when using large squads of Deathcompany: You mention that a lot of the times it is overkill. That is true if you charge a single unit. However a 20 Man Death Company squad can make a massive footprint upon the table when moving forward. And While many times what you "charge" is predeterminned, you are able to be flexible and use the movement in the assault phase to charge Multiple units. This can be a massive advantage. As a 20 man DC unit can spread across 12" to 15" of the board, { especially if you used Dante to land exactly where you want to...} at that point it is very likely that you could charge 3-4 or more enemy units. And the combat resolution is done by total wounds for all combat. So if you win by say 5-6 or more mounds, you can almost table an enemy army with the sweeping advance...

 

Lastly... Something to think about with large multi-charges... if the enemy has a fearless unit? only send 1-2 DC vs that unit, hope that they survive any No Retreat Wounds.. Why? this leaves the DC locked in combat with that fearless unit and safe from shooting on yur opponents turn...

[SamaNagol]

Rage doesnt mean you can only assault the closest target.

[SnorriSnorrison]

All I can say Snorri is wow nice analysis (very nice presentation again!!) I'm finding with my Rhino mounted squad that it gets shot up rather quickly leaving them foot slogging so I'm heading for the LRC camp me thinks.

 

 

Thanks man! Glad you like it! ;)

 

 

btw I love how you ignore your own advice and go jump packs; lots of fun esp with Lemmy ;)

 

It's the only sense-making configuration for me. And Lemmy is pure evil. Makes Deamons look like 'lil sissies. :P

 

 

First is Commander Dante: His ability to grant hit and run to the squad he is with should not be overlooked. Especially when Hit and Run is 3d6 any direction regardless of terrain/interveening units. And it is NOT controlled by Rage.

 

Last time I checked, every movement the DC makes is controlled by Rage. That includes running, consolidation after assault and Hit and Run. Wouldn't make sense otherwise.

Second, Dante is far to precious to rage around where you don't need him, and it is not very fluffy.

 

 

Second is using a Bolter whenever you add a Powerfist: ALways do this, it is free, and you lose no attacks at also. Also the bolter has a 24" range. Rage does not say you must shoot the closest target, just move/run/charge the closest target. However... If you have a choice of targets to shoot, you may use that bolter to shoot a target that is not the closest target. You must then charge that target, not the closest! This allows you to better pick your targets. Skipping past that vehicle and instead targeting the squad right behind it.

 

I did mention that. Check the War Gear section of the analysis.

 

Third is when using large squads of Deathcompany: You mention that a lot of the times it is overkill. That is true if you charge a single unit. However a 20 Man Death Company squad can make a massive footprint upon the table when moving forward. And While many times what you "charge" is predeterminned, you are able to be flexible and use the movement in the assault phase to charge Multiple units. This can be a massive advantage. As a 20 man DC unit can spread across 12" to 15" of the board, { especially if you used Dante to land exactly where you want to...} at that point it is very likely that you could charge 3-4 or more enemy units. And the combat resolution is done by total wounds for all combat. So if you win by say 5-6 or more mounds, you can almost table an enemy army with the sweeping advance...

 

 

And 20 DC with proper equipment cost what? 440 pts at least. And you're gonna let that unit walk around behind a friggin' Landspeeder? I wouldn't advise that to be honest. Too many points in a footslogging unit which will get torn apart by every template/high strength/ap weapon turn for turn. When you're playing a skilled opponent, he will not let this unit do even one of the things you mentioned. ;)

 

 

 

Lastly... Something to think about with large multi-charges... if the enemy has a fearless unit? only send 1-2 DC vs that unit, hope that they survive any No Retreat Wounds.. Why? this leaves the DC locked in combat with that fearless unit and safe from shooting on yur opponents turn...

 

1-2 DC will not even see any No Retreat wounds. They will get sliced to bits 'cause their attacks won't make any impact on that fearless unit...

 

 

 

 

Rage doesnt mean you can only assault the closest target.

 

In Germany, you actually have to assault. Not the closest target, mind you, but you have to assault nontheless. Sucks in some situations.

 

 

 

Snorri

 

 

Reason for edit: spelling

 

PS: Gotta go now, the whole village is celebrating marksmen's festival, that means a lotta booze and getting wasted at 2 pm...for the next 3 days!

See you then! :(

[SamaNagol]

Mistranslations in the German rules aside. Rage doesn't work like that.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Mistranslations in the German rules aside. Rage doesn't work like that.

 

True.

[AbusePuppy]

Rage DOES control your movement-phase movement, Run movement, and consolidation movement, but does not (in the English version, at least) prohibit you from using Hit and Run to go wherever you please. And, as others have pointed out, it has absolutely not effect on who you shoot/assault, at least not directly.

 

The only reason I don't take Bolters on my Power Fist guys is I don't like how it looks and virtually never shoot before assaulting with DC. The chance of the enemy rolling poorly on saves and pulling casualties to put you out of assault distance is simply not worth it, especially against SM, who get Combat Tactics.

 

I disagree with a number of your assessments of weapon options, mainly the guns- I find Plasma Pistols to be stupidly overpriced and Infernus Pistols to be mediocre most of the time. (The latter have their place on other squads, but bring very little- in my eyes at least- to a DC squad, since their job is really not to crack transports and you should have other units specifically dedicated to filling that role for them.)

 

While Jump Pack DC are cool and flavorful as hell, they're awful. Coming in just under the price of a Terminator but more vulnerable to Missiles and having no Power Weapon unless you shell out even MORE points, you're just better off taking some Sanguinary Guard. Just as fast, harder hitting against anything with a good armor save, and no Rage to screw up your choices.

 

DC in a Rhino are okayish in smaller games; in a Land Raider, they can provide a significant assault threat. However, I think their best role is in a Stormraven, which can deliver them quickly and efficiently to the enemy and also allows you to field Lemartes alongside a large squad of them in a transport. They also unlock the Death Company Dread, making them perfect for a dual-Stormraven list that wants to be fielding two hammer units (Death Co and Assault Termies) and two Dreads (Furioso and DC) along with a Sanguinary Priest or two to make sure the Terminators finish off their targets. Such a list also gives an excellent differentiation of threat profiles for the two units (Terminators against "hard" targets, DC against hordes) so you have more tools at your disposal.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

My feelings on DC in general - they are glass hammers. They nuke one unit then are shot off the table. The problem of course is Rage which has pretty much ruined them. I tried them out a lot but never liked them as they are now.

 

G :P

[AustonT]

To answer the title of the post: no.

By gaining Rage and losing Rending the DC are much less appealing. Thier cost and rules mean that my DC Stay at home.

When they were compulsory and randomly generated DC were fluffy and fun. Now the ability to leave your bezekers at home leaves the battlefield feeling a little empty. I love the idea that you can choose to model your force with MORE DC, but overall I see LESS of them.

As a capable unit they are pretty much a use once and destroy unit, better for scaring opponents than changing the pace of the game.

[Dropsik]

The only reason I don't take Bolters on my Power Fist guys is I don't like how it looks and virtually never shoot before assaulting with DC. The chance of the enemy rolling poorly on saves and pulling casualties to put you out of assault distance is simply not worth it, especially against SM, who get Combat Tactics.

My friend once said, that shooting from DC is essential - to make noise...

 

I disagree with a number of your assessments of weapon options, mainly the guns- I find Plasma Pistols to be stupidly overpriced and Infernus Pistols to be mediocre most of the time. (The latter have their place on other squads, but bring very little- in my eyes at least- to a DC squad, since their job is really not to crack transports and you should have other units specifically dedicated to filling that role for them.)

 

as far as my knowledge goes, the pistol options are for shooting at kiting transports. it's hardly efficient, but I could surely use it in casual play.

 

While Jump Pack DC are cool and flavorful as hell, they're awful. Coming in just under the price of a Terminator but more vulnerable to Missiles and having no Power Weapon unless you shell out even MORE points, you're just better off taking some Sanguinary Guard. Just as fast, harder hitting against anything with a good armor save, and no Rage to screw up your choices.

 

yup. but I'm pretty sure Snorri mentioned that it's not the best way to field them, and that he does it mostly because of the flavour. and I disagree with SG statement (unless the chaplain/reclusiarch is absent - in which case the SG have bigger damage output). and the cost is pretty much similar, SG comes at 200 points for 5 man squad. DC come at 175 points for 5 JP + additional PW cost. But it's irrevelant, as long as we compare Jump Packed DC to anything - in my opinion the JP DC ended in pdf.

 

DC in a Rhino are okayish in smaller games; in a Land Raider, they can provide a significant assault threat. However, I think their best role is in a Stormraven, which can deliver them quickly and efficiently to the enemy and also allows you to field Lemartes alongside a large squad of them in a transport. They also unlock the Death Company Dread, making them perfect for a dual-Stormraven list that wants to be fielding two hammer units (Death Co and Assault Termies) and two Dreads (Furioso and DC) along with a Sanguinary Priest or two to make sure the Terminators finish off their targets. Such a list also gives an excellent differentiation of threat profiles for the two units (Terminators against "hard" targets, DC against hordes) so you have more tools at your disposal.

 

We are talking about competitive uses or casual play? I love SR, the model is great, rules are mostly ok, but due to its base (as high as a vendetta) it's unplayable in competitve games. and 100% unplayable if he is packed with expensive DC and Dready. My opinion is: you want good DC? Land Raider is your choice. But when you invest in it - it brings utter destruction to the table.

 

My feelings on DC in general - they are glass hammers. They nuke one unit then are shot off the table. The problem of course is Rage which has pretty much ruined them. I tried them out a lot but never liked them as they are now.

 

you are quite right they're nuking. but key to using them, and in fact many of our assault units, is to charge several enemy units when possible. to enable that you have to have assault ramped vehicle - you've got to take your opponent unaware - opportunity to move 12 disembark, and then charge provides you with that ability.

but I understand you perfectly, I had a hard time getting use to how they work now, but when you discover you preferable build and role they will play in your list - they'll never going to let you down. That's my experience however.

 

By gaining Rage and losing Rending the DC are much less appealing. Thier cost and rules mean that my DC Stay at home.

When they were compulsory and randomly generated DC were fluffy and fun. Now the ability to leave your bezekers at home leaves the battlefield feeling a little empty. I love the idea that you can choose to model your force with MORE DC, but overall I see LESS of them.

As a capable unit they are pretty much a use once and destroy unit, better for scaring opponents than changing the pace of the game.

they're much much better than pdf. ones (at least in 5 ed. - in 4th Rending DC rocked all night long). at first, they dish more damage, and when equipped with 3 PW they already cause more "no saves" wounds than the rending DC. what more, they have 5 WS (so you hit most marines at 3 - big advantage), and they can be equipped with Power Weapon and Power Fists/Thunder Hammers to your like.

BUT

You've got the point about DC not being so popular now. But that's not the issue about them being underpowered - no. just there is so many choices in BA's codex now, that theyre not compulsory choice. and I like that change - giving you options is mainly better than forcing you to take something.

 

cheers!

[AustonT]

I dont really want them to be MORE killy, rending was a suitable rule for DC. I can see a blood crazed SM being able to "rend" an enemy limb from limb, or to in rare cases rip armor plating off vehicles. I was actually talking about 3E when I wrote, but the PDF does most closely capture how I felt DC should be represented. Putting your DC in JP or a Rhino for free was a bit much, paying for it seemed fair. Giving them JPs for free seemed a bit much too, paying for those seemed fair too. but 15 points a model; no. The difference between ASM and TSM is 2 points. TWO POINTS! so for FNP,FC,and Rending I could see paying some extra for the models themselves, and maybe a premium for JP. @5pts that's 150% @15 it's MORE than 700%! Ridiculous.

Thats really my biggest point of contention. It also sort of makes sense that DC shouldnt have PF and PW.

"Listen Bob, I know you've had this sword for a couple centuries but your sick, and we dont want to lose it in your berserker rage. That's why we took your Terminator Armor Bob, these are the Chapters relics. Here have this nice chainsword, yes Bob I know. Horus is a bad man, now go play in puddles of your enemies blood."

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Actually the SR is survivable - you have to build your army to support it. I found it's works very well in a DoA army.

 

G

[SnorriSnorrison]

To answer the title of the post: no.

By gaining Rage and losing Rending the DC are much less appealing. Thier cost and rules mean that my DC Stay at home.

When they were compulsory and randomly generated DC were fluffy and fun. Now the ability to leave your bezekers at home leaves the battlefield feeling a little empty. I love the idea that you can choose to model your force with MORE DC, but overall I see LESS of them.

As a capable unit they are pretty much a use once and destroy unit, better for scaring opponents than changing the pace of the game.

 

I wholeheartly disagree. :D

 

Of course, as Dropsik mentioned, the ability to leave the DC at 'home' is a great advantage over the PDF dex, but while losing Rending, they have gained the Liturgies of Blood Rule. Re-rolling wounds with those PW is a very, very nice. Yes, all of them rended and they are horribly expensive, but you won't find a similar killy unit in any SM-codex.

Aaand with JP they are even more expensive, which sucks, but they have so much more possibilities to wipe units off the table in a game, and of course you can add Lemartes.

 

If you aren't scared, you probably haven't fought this bad boy. :P

 

 

Snorri

[Morollan]

First is Commander Dante: His ability to grant hit and run to the squad he is with should not be overlooked. Especially when Hit and Run is 3d6 any direction regardless of terrain/interveening units. And it is NOT controlled by Rage.

 

Last time I checked, every movement the DC makes is controlled by Rage. That includes running, consolidation after assault and Hit and Run. Wouldn't make sense otherwise.

Second, Dante is far to precious to rage around where you don't need him, and it is not very fluffy.

 

Going back to the Dante/DC option, whilst I agree that it's not very fluffy, it can be extremely useful as it effectively bypasses many of the drawbacks of Rage. The ability to move 3d6 inches in any direction you choose at the end of your opponents assault phase will, more often that not, enable you to position your DC so that the closest enemy unit is one that you want to attack. Plus you get the charge more often, which is always a good thing with BA and especially with DC. Add in Dante's high initiative power weapon attacks with rerolled misses and you're looking at a real killer in assault. My only question would be whether to also include a JP SP to give Dante FC and FNP!

[knife&fork]

Going back to the Dante/DC option, whilst I agree that it's not very fluffy, it can be extremely useful as it effectively bypasses many of the drawbacks of Rage. The ability to move 3d6 inches in any direction you choose at the end of your opponents assault phase will, more often that not, enable you to position your DC so that the closest enemy unit is one that you want to attack. Plus you get the charge more often, which is always a good thing with BA and especially with DC. Add in Dante's high initiative power weapon attacks with rerolled misses and you're looking at a real killer in assault. My only question would be whether to also include a JP SP to give Dante FC and FNP!

 

While I like the concept this unit gets incredibly expensive. Specially since you probably want to take a chaplain of some sorts to maximize the DC damage output.

[Dropsik]

Actually the SR is survivable - you have to build your army to support it. I found it's works very well in a DoA army.

 

G

I must say I didn't test him extensively, and I didn't play DoA much either. but in my opinion it's not the best list you can take on a tournament, as each list that play's in only one way isn't the best list.

 

I dont really want them to be MORE killy, rending was a suitable rule for DC. I can see a blood crazed SM being able to "rend" an enemy limb from limb, or to in rare cases rip armor plating off vehicles. I was actually talking about 3E when I wrote, but the PDF does most closely capture how I felt DC should be represented.

for me the 3rd edition codex was the best one. focusing on BA's using rage to their advantage - and the codex reflected that perfectly. random DC, FC on all units and you had to roll for rage each turn. It wasn't so reliable as it is now, but it was much better and fun to play (in my opinion that is). And it had one of the best mechanism to field DC, but not perfect.

 

but it's all being a matter of taste in my opinion.

 

Putting your DC in JP or a Rhino for free was a bit much, paying for it seemed fair. Giving them JPs for free seemed a bit much too, paying for those seemed fair too. but 15 points a model; no. The difference between ASM and TSM is 2 points. TWO POINTS! so for FNP,FC,and Rending I could see paying some extra for the models themselves, and maybe a premium for JP. @5pts that's 150% @15 it's MORE than 700%! Ridiculous.

totally agree. matt ward must had a bad day when he was putting JP cost in DC entry.

 

Thats really my biggest point of contention. It also sort of makes sense that DC shouldnt have PF and PW.

"Listen Bob, I know you've had this sword for a couple centuries but your sick, and we dont want to lose it in your berserker rage. That's why we took your Terminator Armor Bob, these are the Chapters relics. Here have this nice chainsword, yes Bob I know. Horus is a bad man, now go play in puddles of your enemies blood."

awww c'mon. maybe, in time, special weapons such as power swords and power fists became more prevalent in BA chapter. maybe the secretsa of their construction had been unfurled, and chapter of such grandeur as BA can afford to equip their honoured brethren in DC with such weapons.

 

but it's a fluff debate, and i'm not so good at it B)

 

cheers!

[Brother_Byhlli]

you drop em on a flank and let them hold it

 

That doesn't make sense.

[Brother_Byhlli]

10xDeath Company with Power Fist, Power Weapon, Infernus Pistolsx2

=305pts in a Rhino

=420pts with Jump Packs

 

http://www.slapyo.com/wp-content/wrong18.jpg

[Morollan]

Going back to the Dante/DC option, whilst I agree that it's not very fluffy, it can be extremely useful as it effectively bypasses many of the drawbacks of Rage. The ability to move 3d6 inches in any direction you choose at the end of your opponents assault phase will, more often that not, enable you to position your DC so that the closest enemy unit is one that you want to attack. Plus you get the charge more often, which is always a good thing with BA and especially with DC. Add in Dante's high initiative power weapon attacks with rerolled misses and you're looking at a real killer in assault. My only question would be whether to also include a JP SP to give Dante FC and FNP!

 

While I like the concept this unit gets incredibly expensive. Specially since you probably want to take a chaplain of some sorts to maximize the DC damage output.

 

Granted but Dante is a good HQ choice in his own right so you could take him with another unit and then join him with the DC later on, when they are out of their transport. If you're spending the points on Dante already it's not so much of an issue.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Plus you get the charge more often, which is always a good thing with BA and especially with DC. Add in Dante's high initiative power weapon attacks with rerolled misses and you're looking at a real killer in assault. My only question would be whether to also include a JP SP to give Dante FC and FNP!

 

DC are enough killer without Dante. B)

Where your plan fails is that you wish to include a SP for Dante. When Deepstriking that unit(to benefit from Tactical Precision) you will want to DS that Priest with that unit - which means that you're bascially wasting at least 75 points for some turns as you can't control when that unit drops - and that means you have to buy another Priest. By doing so you need to spend more points and have less points left for other troops.

 

And Dante's hit and run is useless unless you get assaulted. With the DC re-rolling to hit and to wound, they won't have anything left to run aways from. ^_^

 

In my opinion, jump packed DC better go with Lemartes. His initative is 7 on the charge (and therefore superior to Dante's) and his PW is also mastercrafted. Oh, and he's only 150 pts and can't be singled out in close combat.

 

 

Snorri

[vahouth]

Plus you get the charge more often, which is always a good thing with BA and especially with DC. Add in Dante's high initiative power weapon attacks with rerolled misses and you're looking at a real killer in assault. My only question would be whether to also include a JP SP to give Dante FC and FNP!

 

DC are enough killer without Dante. :(

Where your plan fails is that you wish to include a SP for Dante. When Deepstriking that unit(to benefit from Tactical Precision) you will want to DS that Priest with that unit - which means that you're bascially wasting at least 75 points for some turns as you can't control when that unit drops - and that means you have to buy another Priest. By doing so you need to spend more points and have less points left for other troops.

 

And Dante's hit and run is useless unless you get assaulted. With the DC re-rolling to hit and to wound, they won't have anything left to run aways from. :(

 

In my opinion, jump packed DC better go with Lemartes. His initative is 7 on the charge (and therefore superior to Dante's) and his PW is also mastercrafted. Oh, and he's only 150 pts and can't be singled out in close combat.

 

 

Snorri

 

I agree, Lemartes can only be comparable with Mephiston on the charge.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Absolutely in love with Lemartes. Only unit in the army that you pray is going to get injured. What's that? You're shooting at me with plasma? Fan-bloody-tastic!

[Spuck]

Since their movement is uncontrollable, Boltguns are handy. You might turn out to be out of charge range, but the +12"(/x2 if the odds are against running) shots can be a good alternative and can keep their downtime as low as possible. Also, they have plenty of attacks in close combat anyway. Just give the DC w/ PW a pistol (no armor saves is better than AP5 and besides you've paid for the PW).

 

And about Lemartes... I don't think I've seen anyone here mention that he's the only Chaplain with Fleet. All other Chaplains make the entire squad lose this ability, while it's one of the things that makes DC all the more effective imo. The faster the DC unit, the bigger the threat to the enemy.

[SnorriSnorrison]

And about Lemartes... I don't think I've seen anyone here mention that he's the only Chaplain with Fleet. All other Chaplains make the entire squad lose this ability, while it's one of the things that makes DC all the more effective imo. The faster the DC unit, the bigger the threat to the enemy.

 

You're right, I forgot about that! :D

 

Sadly, on the other hand, the DC don't have Fleet. I suppose they were meant to and the Design Team/Mat Ward realised that fleeting DC w/ JP were horribly unbalanced and increased the JP's cost to 15. After that, I could imagine they realised that fleeting DC is always unbalanced and so dropped that rule, but forgot to reduce the JP's cost back to 10. ^_^

 

Well, either that, or MW is not a very nice person. :)

 

 

Snorri