angryswarmofbees Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 So I've read in numerous places that Dark Angles are supposed to be 'shooty'. Why is this? I understand they were originally the only chapter with access to rifleman dreads, but am I missing anything? They don't have sternguard. They don't have thunderfire cannons. The only special units they have are ravenwing and deathwing; neither of which seem especially shooty to me. So...what am I missing? Thanks, Asob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beachymike123 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 back in 2nd edition, when there was codex: angels of death, the blood angels were referred to as the close combat ones and the dark angels the shooty ones. thats how it was referred in my old local GW store anyway. since 3rd ed when they got their own codex, the idea was, and still is, that the majority of the chapter (tacticals and devastators etc) lay down fire support while the death/ravenwing advance. its almost the same as just about every other chapter, just the dark angels exemplify this better. also, the dark angels don't have sternguard or thunderfire because a) they have company veterans instead of 1st company veterans, and :D their codex is still 4th ed and older than the current 5th ed C:SM. there are a few other bits that you'll notice reading it, like transport capacities are lower than current vanilla marines counterpart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voi shet magir Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Sternguard and vanguard were invented sometime last week, and a minority of observers deny that they exist at all. Chapters' rules were mostly about behaviour. Blood Angels would tear off after the enemy even if they were supposed to be devastators, and Dark Angels would actually stop moving so they could shoot more. They also got plasma cannons in their tactical squads, but there was less of this idea that marines who like guns invent better guns. Marines were marines and had marine stuff, for the most part. It's why grognards get grognardy about thunderwolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angryswarmofbees Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 So basically, at least rulewise, they're not all that shooty? At least not compared to codex marines. Thanks! I knew that SG and TFC were new to the 5th codex but wasn't sure if I'd missed something. Cheers guys, Asob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 The Dark Angels are no more shooty than any other Chapter (other than the stereotypically played BA, SW and to some extent, BT). Yes, the rule used to be that they would stop in the middle of the battlefield and just fire, fire, fire, however, that has been removed and the Dark Angels are no more "fixed" emplacement marines than anyone else (and less so than some, such as the Fists). This was and always will be a dumb way to represent marines that were supposed to be made from the gene-seed of the most strategically (and originally tactically) gifted Primarch, because you can't execute strategy or tactics if you are being a dumb-:) and continuously firing from an indefensible position in the middle of a field. The Dark Angels were also never the plasma marines until the 3.5 Ed "fix," which was dumb as well, because previously they had had no more association with plasma than the BA did with melta or flamer weapons. Yes, two of the Sacred Standards in 3rd Ed had to do with shooting, but one simply gave you a defensive overwatch shooting if you were assaulted. The third banner actually gives a CC bonus. If you wanted to represent the DA better, they should become stubborn, to reflect that they have the same morale regardless of how many men they lose and they should probably retain the ability to move regardless of how they are taking fire, which could be represented by auto-passing pinning tests. Reacting to incoming direct and indirect fire is one of the basic military trainings that a modern soldier gets, and it seems stupid that super-soldiers would never learn this, but instead people think they would just "shoot shoot shoot." Read the Purging of Kadillus novel, that is a good one that shows several instances of DA marines continuing to maneuver while in contact with the enemy and fulfilling tactical and strategic objectives regardless of the number of men lost. Nothing currently about the DA chapter as a whole shows them as shooty more than any other chapter gets described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kizzdougs Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 The DeathWatch RPG gives this description of DA characters, "....(DA) are cunning warriors who often rely on the precise application of overwhelming firepower to defeat their foes". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 3rd edition plasma love first legion lots of relic type weapons according to the fluff. The Angles should excel at HTH since there history includes knightly orders with black powder weapons and archaic chainswords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regem Nox Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 The reason I choose to see DA as shooty is just personal preference. I like the idea of silent expressionless robed warrior monks unleashing hell from massive guns. Thats the only reason I think of them as 'shooty'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xyon Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Back in 2nd edition, they were also the only chapter with heavy bolter/assault cannon land speeders, which was seen as a lot of firepower for a single speeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 They are not shooty per se.They just know how to employ tactics better,that means applying maximum firepower precisely to whittle down the enemy and finish him of in CC. The emphasis for the future of the chapter should be given in representing it like a clock work mechanism.Each gear working towards the greater whole,each part of the army has a role to play nothing is useless(like our assault squads for example...) That has been more or less emphasized with the deathwing/ravenwing lists but it needs to be extended to the whole of the chapter. The plasma love came from third ed i think were the chapter was given the option of fielding plasma cannons to the tactical squads.That was emphasized by the release of the dark angels tactical squad boxed set.The chapter also pioneered the plasma dread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayward Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Dont forget the Mortis dread, wich is anathema to the Furioso dread. That is another flavor of shooty that once was DA exclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Dont forget the Mortis dread, wich is anathema to the Furioso dread. That is another flavor of shooty that once was DA exclusive. Yes,indeed now the gks can do it better it seems... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 At one point in time, were the Dark Angels more shooty than the other unique Chapters? Yes. Are they now? No. Has most of the stuff that had previously made us unique (including our titles, secret circles, and other fluff) been consistently taken and parceled out to other Chapters? Yup. So in reality, the designers need to come up with a new niche for the Dark Angels, preferably leaving all the rest of the chapters alone with regard to specialty. As far as "precise application of overwhelming firepower," that doesn't say "more shooty" to me, simply better tactically at getting the firepower you do have into place to annihilate the enemy as much as possible, rather than just releasing a wild-man yell and charging straight in (which is what more and more armies seem to do now, since CC has been made more and more powerful as the editions have gone on). It would be great if this could somehow be reflected in the game rules, but I'm not going to hold my breath. Why doesn't this ever come up for Imperial Fists? Does everyone just accept that they are "shooty"? They have the only character with "bolter drill" and their successor is the only one that makes the "most elite shooting" unit (Sternguard) into scoring... wouldn't the Fists and their progeny be considered the "shooty" Chapters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Why doesn't this ever come up for Imperial Fists? Does everyone just accept that they are "shooty"? They have the only character with "bolter drill" and their successor is the only one that makes the "most elite shooting" unit (Sternguard) into scoring... wouldn't the Fists and their progeny be considered the "shooty" Chapters? No because the fist duel each other over tiny honor snubs so there the best swordsman chapter. Yeah makes sense to me as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xyon Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 I guess I do consider fists to be shooty, with siege engines and whatnot, when I started dark angels back in 3rd edition, I remember people saying they were shooty, but I never really thought they were, they had just as much shooting as any other chapter, but less combat specialty, which kind of irks me. Its one reason why I keep suggestion that belial have access to an assault cannon and/or cyclone missile launcher in the dev threads. If we all ready have a shooty perception, then we might as well give our characters access to better shooting weapons. Boltgun, plasma pistol, combi bolter, storm bolter, those are the shooting weapons our characters have, not very shooty for a "shooty chapter". Of course, I wouldn't mind seeing the whole shooting perception disappear. The original calibanites were knights, sword and bolt gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Of course, I wouldn't mind seeing the whole shooting perception disappear. The original calibanites were knights, sword and bolt gun. Unfortunately thats another concept that has been 'borrowed' by the devs to give birth to the Templars.They even got our dressing code almost...I have yet to see a BT army that has not DA models in it. One could argue that the DA are the space marine template but for some stupid reason its the UM that are poster boys... Not that the i want the DA to be but you catch my drift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmytool Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Of course, I wouldn't mind seeing the whole shooting perception disappear. The original calibanites were knights, sword and bolt gun. Unfortunately thats another concept that has been 'borrowed' by the devs to give birth to the Templars.They even got our dressing code almost...I have yet to see a BT army that has not DA models in it. One could argue that the DA are the space marine template but for some stupid reason its the UM that are poster boys... Not that the i want the DA to be but you catch my drift. Guess that's why we are going to be the 6th ed starter army :yes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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