Upgrade weapons for Priests or no?

[Khorneeq]

At the beginning I was using naked priests as I thought that weapon upgrade is too costy for single wound character.

Now I am upgrading him with Lightnig Claw or Power Weapon as I think that it's a waste not to use his superior Weapon Skill.

He has Ballistic Skill as any other model so I never even tried to upgrade him for shooting.

[HERO]

For you guys saying Infernus is crap, I disagree strongly. That extra S8 AP1 shot is vital. Be it 6" or not, just put the Sergeant up in front, problem solved.

 

As for the Priests, always go bare bones. A Power Weapon more is already really expensive on a 1W model that can be picked out in combat. That's why my Priest always sits behind all his Battle-Brothers. Such is the crappiness of losing the Priest in combat.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you're striking first - which a jump army should - then you can wipe most units in melee. It's only 15 points.

 

G :huh:

[Deschenus Maximus]

15 pts here, 15 pts there... it starts to add up a lot. It's not an awful idea to buy a PW, but more often than not I'll need the pts for something more critical elsewhere in my list.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There is no one right way to build a DoA army - you can go for more boots on the ground or harder hitting units or some mix between the two. Sure 15 points here and there add up but if the list has a good synergy overall it can still work well.

 

G :P

[HERO]

If you're striking first - which a jump army should - then you can wipe most units in melee. It's only 15 points.

 

G :P

 

Maybe in next Ed. when wiping out the enemy isn't a bad thing.. :/

[Black Memories]

It isn't a bad thing in this addition either if there's a bunch of scary stuff to nuke (threat saturation) and/or you setup multiple take-downs of targets in a turn. Both of which are pretty feasible from my experience, especially with an army like Blood Angels.

[knife&fork]

15 pts here, 15 pts there... it starts to add up a lot. It's not an awful idea to buy a PW, but more often than not I'll need the pts for something more critical elsewhere in my list.

 

It's not the 15 points for the power weapon, might as well do that to make him more killy once he's there. The problem is the 75 point starting cost. Overestimating the benefits and overspending on priests is what usually drags a jumper list down.

 

FnP doesn't help agaist the stuff people usually throw at marines to make them die and FC turns a mediocre assault unit (RAS) into an OK one, not a great one.

 

The FnP and FC certainly makes things better, but you have to ask yourself where those points could be spent instead.

[Deschenus Maximus]

You certainly don't want to go crazy on Priests, but at least 2 is pretty essential for a jump list. FnP helps a lot in general to help you wether things like mass storm bolters (GK), mass CC attacks (Orks), etc.

 

And while its true that ASM with FC aren't assault gods, for a Troops choice they are pretty good.

[Morollan]

FnP doesn't help agaist the stuff people usually throw at marines to make them die and FC turns a mediocre assault unit (RAS) into an OK one, not a great one.

 

The FnP and FC certainly makes things better, but you have to ask yourself where those points could be spent instead.

 

The point with FNP is that it basically forces the opponent to use more valuable resources to take your guys out. You can pour smallarms fire into a big assault squad all day and it will barely scratch them. So you have to divert resources from elsewhere to deal with the threat (and a FC RAS is a threat, albeit not up there with Hammernators or Paladins etc). Those resources are not being used against the rest of your army.

[knife&fork]

You certainly don't want to go crazy on Priests, but at least 2 is pretty essential for a jump list. FnP helps a lot in general to help you wether things like mass storm bolters (GK), mass CC attacks (Orks), etc.

 

As stated earlier, I'd try to get them in honor guards if possible. Sang noviates are better value.

 

The point with FNP is that it basically forces the opponent to use more valuable resources to take your guys out. You can pour smallarms fire into a big assault squad all day and it will barely scratch them. So you have to divert resources from elsewhere to deal with the threat (and a FC RAS is a threat, albeit not up there with Hammernators or Paladins etc). Those resources are not being used against the rest of your army.

 

What happens is that you sink a lot of points (and KPs) into less units, making your opponents job easier. He doesn't have to make difficult decisions because we solved the target priority for him.

[Morollan]

The point with FNP is that it basically forces the opponent to use more valuable resources to take your guys out. You can pour smallarms fire into a big assault squad all day and it will barely scratch them. So you have to divert resources from elsewhere to deal with the threat (and a FC RAS is a threat, albeit not up there with Hammernators or Paladins etc). Those resources are not being used against the rest of your army.

 

What happens is that you sink a lot of points (and KPs) into less units, making your opponents job easier. He doesn't have to make difficult decisions because we solved the target priority for him.

 

Just over 300 points and 2KP's for a unit that can Deep Strike, wreck a tank, soak up a shedload of smallarms fire (or force heavier weapons to target them instead of other stuff) and performs decently in assault. I'd say that was a bargain.

[knife&fork]

Just over 300 points and 2KP's for a unit that can Deep Strike, wreck a tank, soak up a shedload of smallarms fire (or force heavier weapons to target them instead of other stuff) and performs decently in assault. I'd say that was a bargain.

 

You forgot scoring :D

 

300 pts is not a bargain, it's a sizable chunk of your army at anything below 2k. It also completely lacks protection against low ap fire.

 

If we take the example of 2 priests with only packs, that's 150 pts. Enough to get you another devastator squad, 3*MM attack bikes, or another assault squad with the equipment of your choice.

 

More bodies, more targets, more power. Same KP and points.

[Morollan]

If we take the example of 2 priests with only packs, that's 150 pts. Enough to get you another devastator squad, 3*MM attack bikes, or another assault squad with the equipment of your choice.

 

All of which can be taken out with smallarms, which are twice as effective without FNP, leaving the opposition big guns to target your own army.

 

Basically, if you're not going to take advantage of priest bubbles then you're probably better off with another codex.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I agree - the Priests are one of our biggest advantages for sure. I never leave home without mine.

 

G

[Deschenus Maximus]

You certainly don't want to go crazy on Priests, but at least 2 is pretty essential for a jump list. FnP helps a lot in general to help you wether things like mass storm bolters (GK), mass CC attacks (Orks), etc.

 

As stated earlier, I'd try to get them in honor guards if possible. Sang noviates are better value.

 

Ah! Sorry, I missed that.

[knife&fork]

If we take the example of 2 priests with only packs, that's 150 pts. Enough to get you another devastator squad, 3*MM attack bikes, or another assault squad with the equipment of your choice.

 

All of which can be taken out with smallarms, which are twice as effective without FNP, leaving the opposition big guns to target your own army.

 

Basically, if you're not going to take advantage of priest bubbles then you're probably better off with another codex.

 

Are marines really that vulnerable to small arms to begin with? Maybe your meta is different to mine but plasma, melta, power fists, battle cannons and the like is what truly kills off marines, FnP or not. Having more more units and thus more target saturation is a better defense in my experience, rather than trying to cover all bases by putting 75-100 points in single wound IC with no inv save.

 

Just because a thing is there doesn't mean you have to take it. In a pure or hybrid jumplist you would probably need one priest at the most and then get your FnP/FC bubble from one or two honor guards.

[Morollan]

So I could buy a naked 5-man assault squad with a JP priest for 175 points or a naked JP honour guard for 165? What exactly is the benefit in that, beyond the 10-points saving? HG are slightly better stat-wise but the assault squad is scoring.

[SamaNagol]

2 attacks base is far more than 'slightly better' statwise. And that Priest is un-targetable in combat.

[knife&fork]

So I could buy a naked 5-man assault squad with a JP priest for 175 points or a naked JP honour guard for 165? What exactly is the benefit in that, beyond the 10-points saving? HG are slightly better stat-wise but the assault squad is scoring.

 

It's more that you can get a 1W IC 75 pt priest, or a non targetable priest and 4 veterans for 165 pts.

[Morollan]

2 attacks base is far more than 'slightly better' statwise. And that Priest is un-targetable in combat.

 

It's not really a great improvement when K&F was arguing for a shooty honour guard ;)

 

I'm not saying that HG are bad but I'm not convinced that spending 165 points minimum for a novitiate is that good a use of points compared to the standard priest.

[Hokkaido23]

1) IC Priests will die in melee. Bet on it. An HG Novitiate is safer.

 

2) HG are not intended to be a mainline combat unit like an Assault squad is. An Honor Guard is designed to be tailored to a specific purpose.

[knife&fork]

I'm not saying that HG are bad but I'm not convinced that spending 165 points minimum for a novitiate is that good a use of points compared to the standard priest.

 

If the other veterans sucked it would be a massive waste of points, luckily they don't.

Kit the honor guard to your liking, enjoy your complimentary FnP/FC bubble.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Honor Guard a great way to get a cheap priest into the army. Plus you have lots of options with Honor Guard.

 

G :D

[Black Memories]

Some of the concepts like "take more worse, cheap stuff" for "target saturation" is such a bizarre idea to me. Maybe it's just the meta I play in, but MSU lists do not do particularly well around here. If you don't design a list with something that costs some extra points and hits like a rhino then you're going to be in trouble. MSU type lists are very effective against armies that want to shoot all day because they tend to have an assault advantage. When playing a list with a great deal more assault power and still has capable shooting MSU lists tend to struggle badly from my experience. It's just too easy to pick apart a bunch of weak units that can't punch back very well when you have much more powerful units.

 

I think the idea above is a reason why a lot of people are disagreeing a bit. If you play in a meta where assault is more or less dead, then you're going to tend to favor a bunch of cheap stuff because everyone sucks at assault. If you play in a meta where you need a good assault portion in your list then you understand that spending points to make a bit of a beefy unit is part of being "strong in assault", especially for Blood Angels. The BA codex is not short on hammer units, but none of them are cheap. If you want good stuff you pay for it, thus I think people who tend to favor assault are much more willing to pay "just 15 points" for a power weapon. In the long run compared to the rest of the assault unit costs, 15 points truly is nothing.