The 'New' Chaos rumour

[Brother Ambroz]

I think one day we'll get a novel that accurately portrays Horus' heir as something other than a failure. I definitely agree with TDA.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I could be mistaken, or have had memory implants since then, but I seem to recall mention of an Abaddon-centric novel being one of AD-B's wish list items.

[Trevak Dal]

What I don't get is this "it's either the fluff or mechanics" mentality everyone here is showing? Not only is this a rumour, but we have another source in a another thread stating Matt Ward is not working on this Codex. So how about we all rejoice, cross our fingers they do a good job and be safe in the knowledge that more than likely we won't see World Eaters with Librarians or somesuch nonsense.

 

Because Cruddance can get it. Or Tau...(my other army) :P

 

And we'll likely get the "Bad Cruddance" from the Tyranid book-the lesser of two Evil Cruddances.

[Lord_Starscream]

Pretty groundless rumours so far methinks. Too far off to be accurate imo.

[Excessus]

Whatever rumors about writers or content circles around, one thing is for certain:

 

GW MUST succeed with this codex! As one of the most defining "villains" in the setting(if not the most!) and one of the most well-liked armies(heck, there are still tons of people playing despite the current dex), they will have some serious pressure on them to make this codex all that it should be. The chaos followers are kinda devout fanatics about their army(ironic, haha)...

 

I have a feeling that customer reviews of it are going to be merciless! Completely without pity or remorse...

[Lord Ragnarok]

And while I realy dont like fluff , to be honest after what Thorpe did to chaos in his dex , I dont think that Ward fluff could make it any worse .

 

Agreed, I'd take Ward fluff over that stuff in the current dex anyday of the week.

[Dammeron]

It's definitely true that the eyes of the gaming public are going to be set to kill for the up and coming chaos codex, and rightly so. Personally, I'm finding it difficult to give into unabashed enthusiasm, and likely won't until the codex is in my hands and has been read through twice or thrice.

 

Still, it's equally difficult to believe that it could be any worse than what we currently have; even the "get you by" additions players have created to make the codex more toothsome are, by and large, superior to taking the product as is.

 

And it's certain that the book has to be a crowd-pleaser; GW would be idiots to miss the opportunity to drag those of us who've shelved our chaos armies back into the fold. If it fails to do so, it may just be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back.

 

Some of the things it must do:

 

- Make playing viable, distinct legions and warbands on the battlefield viable again.

- Reinforce the dynamics between the various forces of chaos (i.e. entrenched enmities between the various legions, cults etc).

- Reinstate God-specific daemons (this is massive; it was an example of unadulterated disconnection from the playing community on behalf of GW to seperate daemons and Chaos Space Marines. Not there should not be a distinct daemon army list; there always has been before, but at the same time, neutering the daemons that exist in CSM armies is a kick in the face to those of us who have painstakingly modelled Great Unclean Ones AS Great Unclean Ones for our Death Guard armies, and wish for them to function as such).

- Emphasise variety and customisation. The Chaos armies and the units that comprise them should be some of the most customisable in the game; even the Tyranids operate under the restrictions of physical and biological constraint; the forces of Chaos do not. Characters in particular should have access to an enormous amount of options via which the chaos player can concoct their own unique entities (something chaos players are particular adept at).

- Do away with the "OMG, we r teh EVILZZZ!!!" quality of the current codex; the design notes of the second ed codex make particularly interesting reading on this point; the whole initiative was to lend the Traitor Legions character and motivation beyond simply: "We didn't get our way, now we're going to throw a galaxy-wide tantrum with chainswords and boltguns." That initiative needs to be forefront in the writer's mind when writing the new codex.

- Throw the Lost and the Damned players a bone; it shouldn't be too difficult introducing a scattering of customisable units and army options into the core list so as to produce a half way viable chaos cult or Traitor Guard style list.

[Brother Ambroz]

Well said Dammeron. You summed that up nicely.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Whatever rumors about writers or content circles around, one thing is for certain:

 

GW MUST succeed with this codex!

 

I would rather they not produce a new codex at all if they couldn't come up with something better than what we've got now, though I'm not on board with the people who basically want to return to all the restrictions of the old codex. I don't want to invalidate the army I've got, but rather I want to be able to add some cool units to it and have the units like Raptors and bikers made a little better or a little cheaper.

[incinerator950]

I would invalidate the new "anything goes" armies if it actually returned the soul of Chaos back into the Chaos armies. Also, what Dammeron said. You don't want Chaos 3.5, come up with something that is both new, fun, and competitively interesting. There should be no reason why a codex makes an army go from being one of the most played forces in the franchise to being one of the least played, one of the most sold out (gotten rid of), or shelved army lists.

 

That's not nerfing, that's butchering the lineup, costing GW money. They even acknowledged it. The reason why 3.5 was created was because 3.0 was bad. If they can't learn from their lessons, they either need to start testing out and use more insight on these, or make every new codex like ours, a lack of flavor, orientation, and no control as to who is opposed to what.

 

If the Space Wolves or Ork codexes got what we got, I guarantee you everyone would say it was because they needed a nerf and the majority of Ork or Space Furry players would be mad just like the majority of Chaos players. There is a reason why these codexes are being used as counts as over the normal one we have. People keep complaining about the Chaos 3.5 codex, and now they're still complaining about Demon Bombing, lash prince and obliterator spam, vehicle assault pivoting and all the major power out of the rest of the poor choices in our codex.

[Brother Nihm]

I'm not on board with the people who basically want to return to all the restrictions of the old codex.

Compared to now, how restricted were we really? :)

[the jeske]

3.5 dex 9+ different builds . gav dex. 1 build [4 if we count chaozilla , the AC/plas and LR rush as something different] .... yeah fewer restrictions.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

You don't want Chaos 3.5, come up with something that is both new, fun, and competitively interesting.

 

 

Actually, yes, I do. :lol:

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You don't want Chaos 3.5, come up with something that is both new, fun, and competitively interesting.

 

 

Actually, yes, I do. :lol:

 

+1

[Iron Lord]

The individual Legions had restrictions that sometimes contradicted the old fluff.

 

Iron Warriors not being able to take any mark other than Undivided (when in older sources there were Khornate Iron Warriors, and before that Slaaneshi Iron Warriors).

 

Similar principles may apply to the other Legions.

[TheDarkApostle]

The individual Legions had restrictions that sometimes contradicted the old fluff.

 

Iron Warriors not being able to take any mark other than Undivided (when in older sources there were Khornate Iron Warriors, and before that Slaaneshi Iron Warriors).

 

Similar principles may apply to the other Legions.

And that's called Game Balance.

 

But hey, wanna know something fun?

 

You actually could take marks in an IW force, but then you wouldn't get to trade the 2 FA slots for one extra HS slot.

 

TDA

[Lord_Caerolion]

You don't want Chaos 3.5, come up with something that is both new, fun, and competitively interesting.

 

 

Actually, yes, I do. -_-

 

Really? I enjoy the fact that I can, for once, have non-Rubric Tzeentchian Marines. I enjoy the fact that I can mix-and-match with the Cults which, while negative in some ways, allows me to have Slaaneshi-Marines other than Noise Marines, etc. I enjoy the fact that Raptors can now take Icons (hopefully Marks in the next book), as surely the Legions themselves retained even a small number of Assault Marines, rather than having every single Assault Marine in every single Legion decide to run off.

 

To be fair, I'm far from saying the current codex is good, but the current book reminded everyone that not every Khornate-Marine was a mindless World Eater, chasing after Falcons while waving a chain-axe, not every Raptor is entirely seperated from its Legion, there are Tzeentch-worshippers other than the Thousand Sons, there are Plague Marines infected with diseases other than "fat-slow-zombie-itis".

 

I only hope that the next book brings back what we had, but doesn't remove that freedom. Bring back the rivalry of the Gods, but don't enforce it in rules, instead allowing for Counts-As (and the utterly fractured Legions), by giving short descriptions of Nurglitch Berserkers, for example, or Slaaneshi "Plague Marines". Most of all, don't force every single renegade Chapter that's ever turned to Tzeentch to mysteriously become spontaneously cursed by the Rubric.

[Dammeron]

You don't want Chaos 3.5, come up with something that is both new, fun, and competitively interesting.

 

 

Actually, yes, I do. :eek

 

Really? I enjoy the fact that I can, for once, have non-Rubric Tzeentchian Marines. I enjoy the fact that I can mix-and-match with the Cults which, while negative in some ways, allows me to have Slaaneshi-Marines other than Noise Marines, etc. I enjoy the fact that Raptors can now take Icons (hopefully Marks in the next book), as surely the Legions themselves retained even a small number of Assault Marines, rather than having every single Assault Marine in every single Legion decide to run off.

 

To be fair, I'm far from saying the current codex is good, but the current book reminded everyone that not every Khornate-Marine was a mindless World Eater, chasing after Falcons while waving a chain-axe, not every Raptor is entirely seperated from its Legion, there are Tzeentch-worshippers other than the Thousand Sons, there are Plague Marines infected with diseases other than "fat-slow-zombie-itis".

 

I only hope that the next book brings back what we had, but doesn't remove that freedom. Bring back the rivalry of the Gods, but don't enforce it in rules, instead allowing for Counts-As (and the utterly fractured Legions), by giving short descriptions of Nurglitch Berserkers, for example, or Slaaneshi "Plague Marines". Most of all, don't force every single renegade Chapter that's ever turned to Tzeentch to mysteriously become spontaneously cursed by the Rubric.

 

 

Agreed. One of the concepts that underlined the current codex that was actually a good idea but ended up very, very poorly executed is the notion that there are variations of dedication to the great powers, plus various schisms and fractures in the established legions, allowing for all manner of offshoots. What we need is a system that sustains this concept, allowing for the creation of established legions on the battlefield as well as enough flexibility to create your own distinct cults or warbands.

 

This could be very easily instituted by simply doing away with the enshrined and established "cults" (e.g. Khorne Berserkers, Plague Marines etc) as specific army list entries and instead allowing marked units to take a SINGLE upgrade from a list of Chaos Rewards/Daemonic Gifts that have a specific points cost per model, and whose effects vary from being redolent of the established cults (for example, a unit with a Mark of Chaos may be able to take the "Berserker" upgrade for blah blah points cost, which provides them with +1 WS and the Furious Charge USR), as well as others which are totally unique, allowing for players to mix and match various marks and gifts to create their own bizarre monstrosities. This would also mean that there'd be no need for abstruse alternative army lists, as any number of armies could be created from the core list via application of an in-built mechanic.

[the jeske]

. I enjoy the fact that I can mix-and-match with the Cults which, while negative in some ways, allows me to have Slaaneshi-Marines other than Noise Marines, etc. I enjoy the fact that Raptors can now take Icons (hopefully Marks in the next book), as surely the Legions themselves retained even a small number of Assault Marines, rather than having every single Assault Marine in every single Legion decide to run off.

 

 

[looks at marked csm of slanesh with two plasmas with infiltration used to summon nettes] yes ... of course because its not like you could have non sonic blaster armed marines [which didnt stop to be slanny after losing icon] back in the days . And its not like you couldnt run different marks as long as you picked the BL rules[which now we are forced to use] . yeah totaly more options in the gav dex.

[Hellios]

You don't want Chaos 3.5, come up with something that is both new, fun, and competitively interesting.

 

 

Actually, yes, I do. :eek

 

Really? I enjoy the fact that I can, for once, have non-Rubric Tzeentchian Marines. I enjoy the fact that I can mix-and-match with the Cults which, while negative in some ways, allows me to have Slaaneshi-Marines other than Noise Marines, etc. I enjoy the fact that Raptors can now take Icons (hopefully Marks in the next book), as surely the Legions themselves retained even a small number of Assault Marines, rather than having every single Assault Marine in every single Legion decide to run off.

 

To be fair, I'm far from saying the current codex is good, but the current book reminded everyone that not every Khornate-Marine was a mindless World Eater, chasing after Falcons while waving a chain-axe, not every Raptor is entirely seperated from its Legion, there are Tzeentch-worshippers other than the Thousand Sons, there are Plague Marines infected with diseases other than "fat-slow-zombie-itis".

 

I only hope that the next book brings back what we had, but doesn't remove that freedom. Bring back the rivalry of the Gods, but don't enforce it in rules, instead allowing for Counts-As (and the utterly fractured Legions), by giving short descriptions of Nurglitch Berserkers, for example, or Slaaneshi "Plague Marines". Most of all, don't force every single renegade Chapter that's ever turned to Tzeentch to mysteriously become spontaneously cursed by the Rubric.

 

You do realise that the old legion rules were optional and you could do a lot of what you said before anyway... Loads of that freedom was already there... Oh and in some ways I agree with you... being able to choose between vanilla biker, slaaneshi biker and noise marine biker would be awesome... If I have to chose between being able to take slaaneshi biker or what noise marines bikers were under the old rules... noise marine bikers win every time.. You want Nurgle marines that don't have fat-slow-zombie-itus... Just take unmarked marines and tell everyone they have aids... done!

[Watch Commander Danek]

You do realise that the old legion rules were optional and you could do a lot of what you said before anyway... Loads of that freedom was already there...

 

I agree with this. There was nothing that prevented someone from structuring their army design wise like the Black Legion. I mean in some ways it was a good attempt - World Eaters for example currently can enjoy a return of the Teeth of Khorne, or raptors, etc. But those same players I bet (and look at the Khorne subforum for verification) miss Collars of Khorne. As a Nightlord I miss my stealth adept. Iron Warriors the flexibility of choosing more heavies and their Warsmith.

 

I think in concept the dex is fine. It gives options. It also took a ton away thou, and in execution it's stagnant and lost alot of the uniqueness of the legions.

[the emperor is scottish]

I heard one of my friends say that someone let slip that there isnt a new chaos dex planed until the release of 6th. Any truth in this?

[Brother Nihm]

Yep, that's what the rumours say around here as well.

We'll see.

 

Though I'd rather not be the first Codex in a new edition - Codex Creep and all that.

[the emperor is scottish]

Yeah i would rather not be the first dex in a new edition either but i wouldnt want it released then be out dated with the release of 6th.

[Brother Ambroz]

With the way codex books are going now (each one needing to be more powerful than the last) I'd say we wouldn't have to worry too much.