The 'New' Chaos rumour

[Commander S. Caesare]

the heck? mini defiler? are you serious? im sorry but that is absolutely useless. why the hell? i need specs.

[Brother Ambroz]

There are tons of ways they could use a "mini-defiler". Those aren't rumors either those are just what Prot would like to see. We're not going to get any specs until GW decides to give us a taste of the new dex.

[minigun762]

A mini-daemon engine would be nice but what would be even better is a big plastic kit where you could make your own daemon engine, complete with optional god marks.

[Dammeron]

A mini-daemon engine would be nice but what would be even better is a big plastic kit where you could make your own daemon engine, complete with optional god marks.

 

This. Rather than the specific Defiler entry, we should have a general "Daemon Engine" entry in the heavy support section which consists of a basic chassis that can then be incrementally upgraded via application of weapons, transport modes (e.g. "walker" upgrade, "flight" upgrade etc), weapons and God specific marks. This would allow chaos players to go absolutely wild imagination wise and would make perfect sense, considering that the Hellforges within the Eye of Terror don't operate within the bounds of physical law; that's why the Dark Mechanicus became the Dark Mechanicus in the first place; to free themselves from those restraints.

[spafe]

But game balance wise... a complete nightmare. balancing the upgrade costs alone would be a nightmare, let alone having to balance some of those abilities agaisnt the rest of the army options. For general wishlisting, all power to you bro, but it'd be a hell of a task to get right. Additionally, from a gw point of view, sounds like your encouraging customising, which as a hobbyist, is great, as a business, well congrats, you've jsut made it very very possible for people to not spend money on overpriced vechicle kits as there would be a lot of room for building your own. (sorry if this comes acorss as negative or what not, just my view on it)

[TheDarkApostle]

But game balance wise... a complete nightmare. balancing the upgrade costs alone would be a nightmare, let alone having to balance some of those abilities agaisnt the rest of the army options. For general wishlisting, all power to you bro, but it'd be a hell of a task to get right. Additionally, from a gw point of view, sounds like your encouraging customising, which as a hobbyist, is great, as a business, well congrats, you've jsut made it very very possible for people to not spend money on overpriced vechicle kits as there would be a lot of room for building your own. (sorry if this comes acorss as negative or what not, just my view on it)

Actually no, it would mesh really really well with the already existing multiple-units-in-one-single-box direction GW has taken with the GK and Necrons for example.

 

TDA

[spafe]

I get what you mean with the cron transport being flipped for the gun boat, but what grey knight kit? And the difference between crons and a deamon engine with options to fly, or walk or be tracked (big structural differences rather than a blip for a teleporter on the grey knight?, and them saying these deamon engines can look like anything... well i think the most similar would be looted wagons for orks, which most ork players eitehr kti bash a rhino with orky bits, or use random stuff to scratch build one.

 

I'm sure it could be done, but I just reckon it'd be unlikely, when it'd be far easier to combine the soul grinder and current engine into one kit.

[TheDarkApostle]

Grey Knight terminators being able to be armed in every possible way as opposed to before where you'd have the sort of Assault Terminators OR Tactical Terminators and not both at the same time.

 

And the standard Grey Knight box with both standard packs and teleport packs to fill both Troops and Fast Attack slots. For instance.

 

Also it's not like just because we would LIKE to see a set like that it's not like it have to happen. It was just general wish-listing. You also have to read between the lines a bit, for something to fit the multi-box direction it doesn't necessarily have to have ALL the options in the wishlist, but maybe a few.

 

For instance, what if they did something like this:

 

One box to create a Daemon Engine that walks with different armaments, for instance one can be an artillery platform with ordinance while another can be pure anti-tank with tons of lascannons and no ordinance at all.

 

One box to create a flying Daemon Engine that can be assembled as either a gunplatform or a flying transport (like the Necron gunboats)

 

One box to create a rolling Daemon Engine with either transport or ordinance or even to teleport or act as a Living Icon or I don't know, use your imagination.

 

:D

 

TDA

[Iron Lord]

Grey Knight terminators being able to be armed in every possible way as opposed to before where you'd have the sort of Assault Terminators OR Tactical Terminators and not both at the same time.

 

Not just that- you had to convert your own TH/SS grey knight termies.

[Lord_Caerolion]

You do realise that the old legion rules were optional and you could do a lot of what you said before anyway... Loads of that freedom was already there... Oh and in some ways I agree with you... being able to choose between vanilla biker, slaaneshi biker and noise marine biker would be awesome... If I have to chose between being able to take slaaneshi biker or what noise marines bikers were under the old rules... noise marine bikers win every time.. You want Nurgle marines that don't have fat-slow-zombie-itus... Just take unmarked marines and tell everyone they have aids... done!

 

Tell that to the Tzeentch-worshippers in the previous codex. It was literally impossible to have non-Cult Tzeentch units. Either the model was a sorceror, or it was a Rubric. The World-Eaters were crazy ax-murderers, no matter what. And yes, I know that you could take a BL force last time, but that's not what I'm saying Chaos should have, is it? I know you can have Noise Marines without the sonic weapons, but once again, read my actual post.

 

I'll say it again, why is it impossible for Slaaneshi-Marines to become close-combat obsessed, and end up being closer to Berserkers in the rules? Why should Khornate long-ranged Havocs be impossible? Why should every single Tzeentch worshipper in the entire galaxy become mysteriously affected by the Rubric as soon as they turn? Why is Nurgle only capable of granting one particular set of symptoms? Why should Assault Marines/Raptors not be able to take Marks?

 

The fact is, the previous "can only mix Marks easily in a BL force" just doesn't make sense. As much as people may dislike it, the Legions are shattered into warbands and mercenary forces. All they need to do is add in a small box for each Cult unit, describing, for example, Slaaneshi Marines matching the capabilities of Plague Marines, actually being the burned-out members of the Legion, who have become utterly deadened to all sensation.

 

Focus on the Legion side, yes, but don't pretend that the Legions only ever go around fighting with other members of their Legion. To put it another way, there have been examples of non-Undivided leaders at the head of a Black Crusade, so to assume that only "Black Legion" leaders can lead diverse forces is wrong.

[TheDarkApostle]

We never said that the 3,5 'dex was a perfect representation of the fluff.

 

What we do say however is that it was, for the most time, a better representation than what we have now.

 

Tzeentch and the Thousand Sons got the really low end of the stick in the 3,5 dex, that is true, we never said they got a perfect representation. However they are pretty much the only who ones really got the low end of the stick.

 

In the 3,5 'dex you could take Bolter wielding Berserkers, you can't do that anymore. So in a sense the 3,5 'dex were far better at representing "long range Berserkers". Berserk Havocs on the other hand is not really true to the fluff as Khorne hates all who refuse to fight up close face to face. Hence, no Berserker Havocs. And having an Icon of a deity does not mean you are marked by that deity. If you are marked you get a mark and not an Icon. And as far as I know the only ones who can take the Mark of Khorne is the latest 'dex is Daemon Princes, Lords and Berserkers + Khârn who already have it standard.

 

Also Slaaneshi marines could easily become better in CC than Khorne Berserkers in the 3,5 dex, as opposed to the 'dex we currently have.

 

Regarding Slaaneshi Marines matching the capabilities of Plague Marines, the only way to still make that happen is the exactly same as back in the 3,5 'dex, by taking a unit of Plague Marines, giving them a different paint job, and using "Counts As". No difference between the 'dexes.

 

Actually, even in a Black Crusade isn't not like everyone just join hands and pretend they are one big happy family. The overall Leader will still only fight with his own warband (who more than likely will follow the same God as he does, or you can just "counts as" Black Legion to represent a Leader who follow a single god but have minions serving several, which is the exact same as now) with all other warbands who have joined the Crusade still fighting with their own Leaders.

 

After all, a Black Crusade is not a merging of several warbands. It is several Warbands deciding to call a truce and then fight as uneasy allies. They are still different warbands, or army lists made from the codex if you will, and they will still all have different leaders who are just along for the ride. At least until the Crusade loose it's momentum and they turn on each other or start doing their own thing no longer caring what the one who was once leader says. Infact, Allies are something you could easily do in the 3,5 'dex by taking two FoC, with a base of 2 HQs and 4 Troops. And if you did you could without problem make the HQs marked by different, hell even opposing, Gods and make their warbands the same and still have them fight besides each-other mimicking a Black Crusade. That hasn't changed from then to now at all.

 

Also I must say you get a little hung up on what things are called. There is still a thing called "rules balance" which is there to make sure that all codexes stands an somewhat equal change of winning over each other. This also means that sometimes a unit might be nerfed compared to how it's depicted in the fluff, and sometimes it means something will get boosted compared to in the fluff.

 

Of course the balance is very rarely perfect and of course you can still completely gimp yourself by building a sub-optimal list, but two very similar lists with two generals of similar ability should have an even chance of winning. Otherwise there wouldn't be a need for a tabletop game and rules at all and we could just roll a dice so see who won and who lost, and what would be the point of that?

 

For instance we all know that in the fluff 10 Guardsmen will never ever stand a change against a Daemon Prince, yet in the tabletop game they are still able to take him down with a bit of good dice rolls on the Guardsmen's side and a bit of bad dice rolls on the Daemon Prince's side. Hell, they are even able to do it in close combat with good enough dice rolls.

 

All the things you mention, all of them can be done, both in the 3,5 'dex and in the current 4,0 'dex. All you have to do is to apply a little "counts as".

 

Here, let me whip up a 3,5 army on the spot:

 

Sorcerer Lord, Doombolt, MoT, Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol (has Chosen as retinue)

 

6x Chosen, 6x MoT and 2x Plasmaguns

+ Chosen with Gift of Chaos and MoT

+ Champion with Doombolt, Power Weapon and MoT

 

8x Chaos Marines, 1x Heavy Bolter, 1x Plasmagun and MoCU

+ Champion with Power Fist and MoCU

 

8x Chaos Marines, 1x Heavy Bolter, 1x Plasmagun and MoCU

+ Champion with Power Fist and MoCU

 

9x Horrors of Tzeentch

 

3x Bikers, 1x Meltagun, 1x Flamer and MoCU

+ Champion with Power Weapon and MoCU

 

There we go, a Tzeentchian warband with no Rubrics at all. Now I've given them MoCU in rules-terms to make them a little more competitive but in fluff-terms they are all fervently worshiping Tzeentch, it's just that some of them haven't been actually marked by Tzeentch yet.

 

And as a solo unit for another list:

 

5x Chosen Champions with Daemonic Resilience, Mark of Slaanesh and Sonic Blasters

+ Chosen Champion with Daemonic Resilience, Mark of Slaanesh, Doom Siren and Power Weapon

 

There, a Noise Marine unit matching the capabilities of Plague Marines but with Sonic Blasters. Only possible in the 3,5 'dex and not anymore.

 

TDA

[spafe]

Stop it TDA! your making me sad at how much we've lost! Then the bitterness grows, then the hatred. The longing for what once was! The resentfulness at the injsutices, and the abadonment. And so, you are now in the mindset of the army you play :-p

[Brother Ambroz]

Actually I enjoyed playing my Thousand Sons in the 3.5 dex. I still won more games than I do nowadays with that Tzeentchian list than I do now....

[Watch Commander Danek]

TDA hit the nail on the head. With a lil thinking outside the box and using "counts as" you could create a list that more or less fitted what you wanted easily. While it may have been a tad easier to do it with this last codex (which might as well have been called Codex: Black Legion honestly), it was in no way a fair trade for the unit options, choices and wargear lost to those who played certain armies.

[TheDarkApostle]

All in all, I think we can all agree that when any of us say we rather have the 3,5 'dex back, we rather mean we want a codex that lets us play in the competitive sphere with more than the 2x DP, 6x Plague Marine in Rhinos and 3x 2xOblits build we have now.

 

Because that's the difference to the 3,5 'dex were you could play competetivly with several different builds with several different themes and variations as opposed to this single build with very minor alterations.

 

TDA

[Panda_]

I find it great to have a new codex as this new one would have good external balance. Look at our dex, aside from DP, KB, PM and Oblits our units don't stand direct comparaison to newer codecii. However, I'm still afraid for its internal balance. There is no point (aside from fluff and fun) in bringing lords, sorcs, any fast attack, daemons, NM, Preds, LRs. Some of our other units outshine them easily.

 

With all those rumors about different Legion (first I think that's more a wish than an actual leak), there could still be internal balance problems. 9 Legions (without renegades), one has not to be plain better than one another. That could be a difficult achievement, and many chaotic fans could cry _again_. Plus, distinctions between legions aren't that defined. If dedicaced legions are clearly defined, the undivided legions aren't so much different: AL&NL, WE&WB

 

The error margin is slim.

[Lungboy]

Berserk Havocs on the other hand is not really true to the fluff as Khorne hates all who refuse to fight up close face to face. Hence, no Berserker Havocs.

 

There's plenty of fluff that states that Khorne doesn't care where the blood comes from, as long as you are sending him souls then that's a-ok. As long as it isn't using withccraft/sorcery/psychic powers. So Khorne Havocs do make sense.

[Brother Ambroz]

I find it great to have a new codex as this new one would have good external balance. Look at our dex, aside from DP, KB, PM and Oblits our units don't stand direct comparaison to newer codecii. However, I'm still afraid for its internal balance. There is no point (aside from fluff and fun) in bringing lords, sorcs, any fast attack, daemons, NM, Preds, LRs. Some of our other units outshine them easily.

 

With all those rumors about different Legion (first I think that's more a wish than an actual leak), there could still be internal balance problems. 9 Legions (without renegades), one has not to be plain better than one another. That could be a difficult achievement, and many chaotic fans could cry _again_. Plus, distinctions between legions aren't that defined. If dedicaced legions are clearly defined, the undivided legions aren't so much different: AL&NL, WE&WB

 

The error margin is slim.

 

From what I gathered from reading rumor posts it's a greater focus on legions-not bringing back the old legion rules. I don't understand what you mean that there's no point in brining those units back. Daemons used to be amazing. Mutated hull preds were fun. Lords were actually useable with a decent weapon and daemonic upgrades. Yeah if you're going by our current dex, other units outshine them easily but older codex books....

[TheDarkApostle]

I find it great to have a new codex as this new one would have good external balance. Look at our dex, aside from DP, KB, PM and Oblits our units don't stand direct comparaison to newer codecii. However, I'm still afraid for its internal balance. There is no point (aside from fluff and fun) in bringing lords, sorcs, any fast attack, daemons, NM, Preds, LRs. Some of our other units outshine them easily.

 

With all those rumors about different Legion (first I think that's more a wish than an actual leak), there could still be internal balance problems. 9 Legions (without renegades), one has not to be plain better than one another. That could be a difficult achievement, and many chaotic fans could cry _again_. Plus, distinctions between legions aren't that defined. If dedicaced legions are clearly defined, the undivided legions aren't so much different: AL&NL, WE&WB

 

The error margin is slim.

 

From what I gathered from reading rumor posts it's a greater focus on legions-not bringing back the old legion rules. I don't understand what you mean that there's no point in brining those units back. Daemons used to be amazing. Mutated hull preds were fun. Lords were actually useable with a decent weapon and daemonic upgrades. Yeah if you're going by our current dex, other units outshine them easily but older codex books....

Ah yeah. That's what Panda_ meant, right now the internal balance is a mess and those units are simply not worth taking, and he hopes that problem get's fixed in a new 'dex.

 

TDA

[Brother Ambroz]

Oh I got ya now. Yeah that would be very nice.

[Panda_]

Yes, that's what I meant.

 

Sorry I'm not as good in English as I used to be :-(

[40k nut]

Hey everyone, I'm happy with the current codex. Only complaint is let us have the real summoned daemons. Back in the last choas codex we could summon in real bloodletters, not these lame-ass lesser daemons. Also we could summon in "real" grater daemons. Blood thirster oh how I miss you!!That alone would make would make chaos marine a force to be feared again! I think it's cool how the current codex lets you take a mix of forces. Oh yeah almost forgot, take the nurf off of thousand sons.

[the jeske]

I'll say it again, why is it impossible for Slaaneshi-Marines to become close-combat obsessed, and end up being closer to Berserkers in the rules?

because GW doesnt want you to have i5 and FC and ws5 and an extra A . and if the question is about a slany specific hth elite unit [which could be done in the 3.5 using possessed or chosen] , well tough luck since 3ed the number of units did not get bigger and wont probably grow in the future , just like technicly a chain ax should be different from a chain sword , it seems that that for chaos [GK have a whole shtick of different Nemezis weapons doing different things] they dont want such stuff.

 

as it is good that we have an option to take non rubric marines . Is that some sort of a joke ? or are we talking about theretical unit choice . the IoT sucks hard core , its worse then cover , costs a lot , in hth the bonus isnt big enough to be viable for csm + if it dies the bonus is gone . Also while you maybe happy about "gaining" tzeench csm with IoT remember that some people lost 1ksons termis , thrall sorcs , demons etc. And that is for an army which was bad under 3.5 .

 

 

 

Why should Khornate long-ranged Havocs be impossible?

because the fluff was retconed . There are no WE non zerkers. Till GW decieds to change that of course.

 

Why should every single Tzeentch worshipper in the entire galaxy become mysteriously affected by the Rubric as soon as they turn?

becuase the number of 1ksons player is smaller and the number of non 1ksons tzeench following players even smaller . GW cant [well technicly they can , but they wont] drop the 1ksons out of the fluff , they dont care about the non legion players . I mean even in a codex that is about renegades , where is the fluff for them , where are the specials , the rules . Some pages with different green, red and blue chaos marines does not make it a renegade friendly dex.

 

Why is Nurgle only capable of granting one particular set of symptoms?

because gav thopre and cavatore said it so.

 

To put it another way, there have been examples of non-Undivided leaders at the head of a Black Crusade, so to assume that only "Black Legion" leaders can lead diverse forces is wrong.

tough luck considering or crusades were led by abadon then .

and all bigger incrusions [sector wise] were done by legions [those broken up ones , that dont have structure and work independent , but somehow can join up in the warp which is limitless and land in the same place at the same time]. Or were colaboration of mixed forced but those chaos marines be their cult or not never fought hand in hand .All of this because lol csm hate each other , specialy dudes from other legions/chapters [which of course dont realy exist anymore and the whole hate is just a for the lolz thing].

[Menkeroth]

Hey, as usual. The same, chaos players all 'round the world don't change. The Changer of the Ways isn't satisfied, for changes must and have to be, in fact they're unavoidable, all we can do is to make sure they happen as we wish ;)

 

Chaos had once its glory, i'm sure it'll be again. But in another way... Old times're gone, certainly. Now if you want only to win, Matt Ward is GK and BA're waiting for you. Or SW if you wish (though it's a great codex with its own advantages and disadvantages). As for me, single codex but done as the loyal vanilla'd be great - all we can desire, certainly. But if it's Phil Kelly... Chaos SW is also a great variant ;) Just as planned...

 

P.S. The post above - facepalm, just facepalm.

[the jeske]

I'll wait till you end up without gas again . then we see how you sing.