The 'New' Chaos rumour

[Excessus]

2nd Edition --> mixed warbands

Speak for yourself, I played Alpha Legion even then...

 

...you could mix, no people around here did though...the legions were too awesome and had a unifying colour scheme...

[TheDarkApostle]

Personally I would like to see the Chosen of Abbadon expanded upon. That is, Devram Korda, Yghemoth the Deciever (who evidently was executed post Medusa V for failing that campaign), and the other two currently unnamed from the piece of artwork in the 3,5 'dex which was also in the 4'th ed 'dex.

 

Devram Korda sounds awesome from the little tidbit of fluff we were given that he pretty much boiled down an entire planet to distill their "life-essence" into a potion which he then used to make himself invulnerable, before proceeding to raid all the other planets in the system and distilling them as well.

 

Also he was a Slaaneshii Black Legionnaire. Who had a beef with the Emperor's Children.

 

TDA

[Lord_Caerolion]

Exactly. That's the sort of thing we should be focussing on, instead of merely character-dropping guys from the Horus Heresy. I know they're a popular series, but we're having a hard time explaining why every CSM character isn't a daemon prince without adding numerous more characters who were already powerful during the Heresy, and in most cases were instrumental in the spread of Chaos throughout their Legion.

 

Still, it's very good to hear from A D-B that the Red Angel thing is 99% false, and presumably most of the other rumours are too. Trust me, I want a new Chaos codex too, I just don't want name-dropped Horus Heresy tripe with the new flavour of the month being the numerous minor gods who get added. We've got enough Marks without adding what will no doubt be at least two more.

[the jeske]

Also he was a Slaaneshii Black Legionnaire. Who had a beef with the Emperor's Children.

well the legion point turning point was when EC due to their superior genetics kicked sons of horus and other legions butt , got horus body from BL and started to mass clone them . After that the BL started the whole willing possession thing , turn name in to black legion etc Little love between the EC and BL. Most of the legions that took part in the siege of terra didnt forgive the EC the thing that while they were bleeding themselfs dry trying to breach the walls of the imperial palace , EC went wild on the terran population and suffered only minimal loses [mostly self inflicted due to sensetion overdose] .

[Kevlarshark]

And the gods have always cooperated in order to stick it to the Imperium. Or the Eldar. Or whatever. Why do you insist to pretend that isn't the fluff since Rogue Trader times? You were even able to use Slaanesh units and Khorne units in the same army in the 3.5 Codex. You just weren't able to use Slaanesh units if the Lord had the Mark of Khorne. That has now been lifted, but that is just a minor point

 

*Sigh* I think many players would feel that the 3.5 codex was the most characterful and accurate representation of chaos forces. Yes the chaos gods do form alliances, but the gods and Chaos marines are not necessarily "in unison". Most of the Warbands and remnants of the Legions are as likley to kill each other as they are to attack the imperium (or who ever).

 

If you look at the modern world and see the conflicts that have happened between people who worship the same god (but in different ways), you will start to see how exceptional an individual like Abbadon would have to be to command a force made up of individuals who worship many different gods (who also hate each other).

 

This is why I think so many people have a problem with something like a Khorn/Slannnesh warband led by 2 Deamon Princes (one of Nurgle and one of Tzeench) backed up by 9 weird mutant obliterators. It rails against what should be right...

 

...Which is why it fits with Chaos, and now the argument becomes circular!

 

The codex should reward people for taking a mono god army (all of the gods would look after their favoured followers) but not overly penalise

people for breaking that mould or not worshiping any gods!

[Legatus]

Yes the chaos gods do form alliances, but the gods and Chaos marines are not necessarily "in unison".

No one says they are. The 4th Edition Codex certainly doesn't.

 

 

Most of the Warbands and remnants of the Legions are as likley to kill each other as they are to attack the imperium (or who ever).

That's what the 4th Edition Codex actually says.

 

You were able to use Khorne and Slaanesh units in the same army in the 3.5 Codex. Only the limitation based on the army commander's Mark was added. I.e. using two units of Noise Marines, one unit of Berserkers, and one unit each of Bloodletters and Daemonettes was possible. The difference with the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Edition Codex is that you can also add either a Khorne or a Slaanesh marked commander to that army.

[Kevlarshark]

@Legatus

 

Sorry, I think you missed my point. Chaos is supposed to be somewhat 'chaotic' monsterous and wrong its the dark desires of every psychicly active species in the galaxy made real. To say there is a 'typical' warband is a dark irony in its self. Because it is Chaos all builds should be possible.

 

Why not have some Kinky psychos who love nothing more than shedding their victims blood (khorn/slannesh) or a group who has turned to the dark arts of sorcery to hold a plague they have been afflicted with in check, only to discover the can draw extra power from it (Tzeentch/nurgle)?

 

But...

 

We should not be discouraged from fielding mono armies either. At the moment the only mono chaos armys I have seen are Khorn or Nurgle (and these are rare), why? Because there is no benefit and a large disadvantage to these type of force.

[A D-B]

Bear with me a moment. I'm going to use the Night Lords, but this could apply to any Legion. And, yes, it could - no matter what the 3.5 limited rules said.

 

Warband 1 is a Night Lords warband, consisting entirely of Heresy-era warriors from the Eighth Legion who care nothing for Chaos, but realise their "side" in the Long War are - to some degree - serving the aims of the malignant intelligences within the warp. They couldn't care less about the larger Legion; living in a realm of eternal Hell with no laws of space and time have depleted ancient bonds to more daily, relevant allegiances. They don't hate their Legion, they're still Night Lords, it's just a bond that applied ten thousand years ago holds little relevance for them now. They know they can't trust their own brothers, because all Chaos Marines spend as much time fighting each other as they do the Imperium.

 

Warband 2 is a Night Lords warband, consisting entirely on Heresy-era warriors from the Eighth Legion who don't worship Chaos, but raise icons to gain the blessings of various gods whenever it suits their needs, such as summoning daemons to win a war, or demanding the Blood God grant them power for an upcoming battle. They don't worship Chaos, but they recognise it as a weapon, and don't hide from using it. They consider themselves Eighth Legion to the core, forever staying in touch with dozens of other Night Lords warbands, uniting every chance they get - much like those rare moments when a full Chapter goes to war, rather than 1 or 2 Companies.

 

Warband 3 is a Night Lords warband with many newly initiated Night Lords over the course of the centuries, as they've needed to repopulate their ranks after losses in battle. Some of their squads are ancient veterans, others are newer blood. They feel the same about the Legion as Warband 1.

 

Warband 4 is a Night Lords warband with a core of Night Lord warriors, allied with a Raptor Cult (several Raptor squads originally drawn from several Legions) and a Thousand Sons sorcerer, who commands a small phalanx of Rubric Marines.

 

Warband 5 is a Night Lords warband that enhances its desire to feed on fear (and its ability to inspire terror) by merging with daemons. They have several Possessed squads, and are led by a Daemon Prince. They even have a few daemon engines, in various forms, and prefer Daemon possessed tanks.

 

Warband 6 is a Night Lords warband that (either because of a need to survive or a mutual alliance of trust) have allied with an equally sized Iron Warrior warband, to create a new warband led by a council of Night Lord and Iron Warrior Champions.

 

Warband 7 is a Night Lords warband that has somehow discovered the exact mechanics of Berzerker surgery, and have several Night Lord Berzerker squads among their ranks. In all other ways, they're similar to Warbands 1, 2 or 3.

 

Warband 8 is a Night Lords warband much like any other, except that they're allied with the survivors of a newly-turned Renegade Chapter that they conquered in battle.

 

Warband 9 is a newly-turned Renegade Chapter.

 

Warband 10 is a collection of Nurgle-aligned warbands, such as at the Siege of Vraks, with squads drawn from the Purge, the Lords of Decay, the Apostles of Contagion, and the Death Guard.

 

Warband 11 calls itself the Cimmerian Nightfall. In the Heresy, they were Night Lords; they still consider themselves Night Lords and they're no different to warbands 1, 2 or 3. They just have their own warband name, much as most Chaos armies would have - the same way the Skulltakers and Berzerkers of Skallathrax are still World Eaters, and my own warband the Aphotican Oath are still Word Bearers.

 

Warband 12 calls itself the Sons of the Sunless World. In the Heresy they were Night Lords, but much as the Sanctified left (but are still allied with) the Word Bearers, the Sons of the Sunless World left the Eighth Legion to pursue their own breed of tactics and goals that loosely conflicted with the focus of most other nearby Night Lord warbands. They're Eighth Legion stock, but prefer a degree of independence beyond even the usual scattering of warbands throughout space and time. Their armour is almost exactly the same as the Night Lords, except for red helmets.

 

Warband 13 calls itself the Tears of the Fallen Father. In the Heresy, they were Night Lords, but in the years that followed, they've sworn against everything the Night Lords stood for, considering their original Legion to be failures and weaklings. Their armour is black and grey, and they have a completely new symbol on their shoulder guards.

 

Warband 14 is a collection of Marines from different Chapters and Legions temporarily (for one crusade or for thousands of years) allied under the banner of a single god, following a council of leaders or a single warlord.

 

Warband 15 is a collection of almost completely unattached Chaos Marines from various Legions and Chapters, united only by the whims of fate and the winds of the warp - much like Chaos itself determining Angron and 50,000 Berzerkers would ravage Armageddon int he First War.

 

And here's the thing.

 

A codex - and the players - need to recognise that every single one of those warbands is just as realistic, just as possible, and just as viable as all the others. Our codex needs to offer all of those options (and I'm not saying it'll be easy) to players so they can create any one of those without feeling like their army is weaker because they didn't take a specific "must have" unit.

 

It's not a case of "Legions or Renegades" or "Legions are unified or Legions are totally divided".

 

Shades of grey, guys. Remember, the gamer perception of self-identifying as "I'm a Dark Angels player" really isn't relevant, here. By the lore, and the way Chaos works in the Eye of Terror, the codex needs to go beyond that - and so do some of us. Yes, we can still say "I'm a Word Bearers player" - I say it myself - but there are nuances by the truckload in all this.

[Captain Semper]

Yes. Agreed.

 

But it would also be great if the future codex was to distinguish between Word Bearers and Night Lords and Iron Warriors etc in some meaningful way... So all the above 15 categories times 9... It will become an unwieldy Codex if it is even possible. I would personally like to see the focus on the Legions and what it means to have a force based on each one. The Legions to me are the core of the Chaos SM concept. And I beleive it should make a difference if you are a Night Lord or Word Bearer or an Iron Warrior as much as if you are a Blood Angel or a Dark Angel or a Space Wolf. I really wish GW focuses on the Legions in the next interpertation of the Codex.

 

Saying that the generic categories above are applicable to all Legions doesn't mean that for example category 1 of Night Lords should play exacly the same a category 1 of Word Bearers.

 

Just my view...

[A D-B]

Just my view...

 

Mine, too. I completely agree; my examples were a baseline, not the whole deal.

 

Heck, no.

[Greyall]

You came up with that solely for this post? Khorne allmighty, man...I take at least half an hour (usually the full 60 min, sometimes more) to write the background for a single character...

 

While I fully agree with you on your vision of the remnants of the Chaos Legions, it makes sense for a Codex to focus a bit on those forces closer to the Primarchs or the Legions' true nature: Night Lords - very mistrustful of the other Legions, underhanded fighting and use of fear, for example. So it'd be natural for Warband 1 to be depicted in the Night Lords' section.

 

That being said, I find myself "demanding" that the book underlines the ragged, born-out-of-necessity nature of many Warbands. The way I see it, it'll lend a greater air of tragedy and power to the aforementioned more "purist" warriors.

[Tchort]

I would think that the failure of the current CSM codex and the backlash it received from those among the community is a clear sign of a repudiation of the focus on the Renegade angle within Chaos. The rumour that the next codex focusing on Chaos is titled "Traitor Legions" only speaks further to this.

 

Looking at ADB's list of warbands is impressive, but hoping that they have room for all that in a new codex is self-indulgent at best. I mean, we're possibly going to have one book to get the Legions right and you want to pay lip service to the fact that maybe out there some loyalist Marines decided to paint their armour blue and started calling themselves Night Lords?

 

I can't help but feel that the narrative you're trying to push is one most CSM players don't buy into. I think people want themes and rules that harken back to the fact that we're playing guys who've been fighting for 10,000 years and trailblazed all the way to Terra. Especially with the ever popular Horus Heresy series out. The customer is always right, and it looks like GW is finally listening.

[A D-B]

Looking at ADB's list of warbands is impressive, but hoping that they have room for all that in a new codex is self-indulgent at best. I mean, we're possibly going to have one book to get the Legions right and you want to pay lip service to the fact that maybe out there some loyalist Marines decided to paint their armour blue and started calling themselves Night Lords?

 

No. That's... got nothing to do with it. That's not even what that list shows at all. Out of 15 warbands, 11 of them are directly Heresy-era warriors, and another 2-3 are largely comprised of them. So your point is absolutely invalid, and incorrect.

 

I can't help but feel that the narrative you're trying to push is one most CSM players don't buy into.

 

I'm not trying to push any narrative. I'm trying to explain Chaos as it's been explained to me, and - dare I say it - as GW seems to intend it to be seen.

 

I think people want themes and rules that harken back to the fact that we're playing guys who've been fighting for 10,000 years and trailblazed all the way to Terra.

 

Yep. Which is why most of the potential warbands I listed were exactly that. I mean, like most Chaos players, I want it, too. But - again - you're showing you're missing the point. It's not "LEGIONS!" or "NOES! THE LEGIONS ARE GONE! IT'S ALL RENEGADES!" That's exactly what it's not. It's a continuum, with a great deal of possibility, and while it's difficult to get it all in, it's probably not impossible to get a great deal of it down. More Legion fluff, specific Legion rules the way they've done Chapters in the Marine codex in the past, and so on. Then explain what it's like to exist in the Eye of Terror, and explain how new Chaos Marines come to be. It's possible. I'm not venturing any opinion on how best to do it, only that it's possible, and that's much likelier than any artificial Renegades/Legions codex divide.

 

Seriously, man. Shades of grey. At least try to see it. Your answer shows, clearly, that you don't. Instead of making facetious cracks about narratives being pushed or banging on about Renegades, try to see the continuum as the ideal, rather than something to ignore while getting in more references to the divide of Black or White. Because that perception is essentially doomed to failure if the next codex is anything like the way the IP department talk about Chaos Marines. It's just one angle, not the main thrust behind Chaos Marines.

 

The problem seems to be that when people see both sides of the coin and try to explain the continuum, Legion fans just immediately say "NO! IT'S LEGIONS! THEY'RE ALL THAT MATTER." Which is great! It... just ignores the many, many variances even within the Legions. I couldn't care less about Renegades. They barely even got a mention in my list, yet they're what you tried to refute my points with. It's the variety in and around the Legions that matter. That's what needs representing.

 

Especially with the ever popular Horus Heresy series out. The customer is always right, and it looks like GW is finally listening.

 

Nope. Looks like some rumours that, from what I've seen so far, look absolutely fabricated.

[Lungboy]

Looking at ADB's list of warbands is impressive, but hoping that they have room for all that in a new codex is self-indulgent at best.

 

It seems to me that most of those can be made with the current codex, with a little imagination. I'm sure there are lots more too, so i'm fully confident that a new book will be able to manage it too.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

'snip'

Aye. One of the main things I love about the 40k universe is you can do just about anything, especially with Chaos. If GW changed that, that alone would make me leave, and probably only that would make me leave.

 

I know I'm not the only one 'looks at the Liber' :D

[Excessus]

People have to remember that there is no fixed size of the warbands unlike the loyalist chapters. I strongly believe there are warbands bigger than an entire chapter out there, operating in a certain way due to their training, beliefs and experience, recruiting new marines when they can(the veterans were fighting countless battles in the crusades with the tactics and philosophies of their legion, those experiences and memories are as much a part of them as their ears or kidneys)...

 

...but even though the night lords operate according to a certain standard practice, they will of course hire any other legionnaires or renegades that will do their job easier and to further their overall plan...

 

 

 

...or at least the Alpha Legion would... :rolleyes:

 

 

Anything for the plan! Hydra Dominatus!!!

[darth_giles]

'snip'

Aye. One of the main things I love about the 40k universe is you can do just about anything, especially with Chaos. If GW changed that, that alone would make me leave, and probably only that would make me leave.

 

I know I'm not the only one 'looks at the Liber' :rolleyes:

I dunno, I don't like how they functionally made dual-lash 9x oblit armies the only ones you see, the same way the NVR made dual pie plate IW lists the only ones you saw. Now, some of that is from nerfs to the core rules or designers feeling that people are making too many assault armies, but dual-lash 9x oblits was standard even before 5th Edition came out and people at the now-closed local GW store were talking about how they were re-making their Chaos lists to use it and everyone else needed to rebuild their lists to deal with it.

 

If GW does the same thing with the next Chaos codex, I'm going to start looking at ebay and liquidating my Chaos stuff. I'm *that* fed up with them abusing Chaos. That and the 'Crons made me an "offer I can't refuse."

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

'snip'

Aye. One of the main things I love about the 40k universe is you can do just about anything, especially with Chaos. If GW changed that, that alone would make me leave, and probably only that would make me leave.

 

I know I'm not the only one 'looks at the Liber' :)

I dunno, I don't like how they functionally made dual-lash 9x oblit armies the only ones you see, the same way the NVR made dual pie plate IW lists the only ones you saw. Now, some of that is from nerfs to the core rules or designers feeling that people are making too many assault armies, but dual-lash 9x oblits was standard even before 5th Edition came out and people at the now-closed local GW store were talking about how they were re-making their Chaos lists to use it and everyone else needed to rebuild their lists to deal with it.

 

If GW does the same thing with the next Chaos codex, I'm going to start looking at ebay and liquidating my Chaos stuff. I'm *that* fed up with them abusing Chaos. That and the 'Crons made me an "offer I can't refuse."

I agree that the rules suck. No further discussion is needed, believe me :P What I'm saying is that the openness, the options to do almost anything should be there. Even now, the options are there, but the options, well, suck :rolleyes:

[Eerie]

The argument brought forward by A D-B and others relates to the background of Chaos, and the fact that unlike what many people claim almost every alliance and collaboration between various Chaos factions is possible. A statement such as "Nurgle followers would never-ever-ever-ever do any business with Tzeentch followers" is simply not right. For a common goal, or under certain circumstances, there is absolutely nothing to say against a fluffy Nurgle/Tzeentch warband. If it's only that one is bullied into service by the other or something like that.

 

But what people feel mostly unsatisfied with is how the opposite of such more or less likely alliances is represented in the rules. You get penalized if you restrict yourself to a one-god army, and are basically forced to employ an allcomers list, whether you want or not. It would be a bit like saying "No dude, you can't use pure Black Templars, you must use a combined Black Templar/Ultramarine/Blood Angels army if you want to play anywhere close to competitive.". Not that that would be against the background, but what if you simply do not want that? You're a fan of the Black Templars, so naturally you want to be able to field a pure Black Templar army and still be able to win. Chaos can't. Even if we disregard the codex creep from which current Chaos codex suffers due to its age, its entire principal layout is what bugs people off. You must play "big lovely Chaos family" or you loose your games. As simple as that.

[Watch Commander Danek]

But what people feel mostly unsatisfied with is how the opposite of such more or less likely alliances is represented in the rules. You get penalized if you restrict yourself to a one-god army, and are basically forced to employ an allcomers list, whether you want or not. It would be a bit like saying "No dude, you can't use pure Black Templars, you must use a combined Black Templar/Ultramarine/Blood Angels army if you want to play anywhere close to competitive.". Not that that would be against the background, but what if you simply do not want that? You're a fan of the Black Templars, so naturally you want to be able to field a pure Black Templar army and still be able to win. Chaos can't. Even if we disregard the codex creep from which current Chaos codex suffers due to its age, its entire principal layout is what bugs people off. You must play "big lovely Chaos family" or you loose your games. As simple as that.

 

 

^This has great validity. I understand what ADB is saying but I'm not sure what we are saying is being heard or if he's trying to really explain the company line. I must say if that's company line I give up on Chaos and will keep to my short stories while building a SW force lol

 

Also, random question here I have to ask.

How is the possibility of two chaos codex lofty and overindulgent when there are a multitude of Imperial Marine codexs (Codecci? I always forget ><)? And before you say "WELL THE LEGIONS AREEN'T THAT DIFFERENT RABBLE RABBLE" isn't that the point though? That World Eaters want to feel different, or Emperor's Children? Isn't the Black Legion pretty much the Ultramarines of Chaos in terms of army mechanics/execution?

[Lungboy]

The argument brought forward by A D-B and others relates to the background of Chaos, and the fact that unlike what many people claim almost every alliance and collaboration between various Chaos factions is possible. A statement such as "Nurgle followers would never-ever-ever-ever do any business with Tzeentch followers" is simply not right. For a common goal, or under certain circumstances, there is absolutely nothing to say against a fluffy Nurgle/Tzeentch warband. If it's only that one is bullied into service by the other or something like that.

 

But what people feel mostly unsatisfied with is how the opposite of such more or less likely alliances is represented in the rules. You get penalized if you restrict yourself to a one-god army, and are basically forced to employ an allcomers list, whether you want or not. It would be a bit like saying "No dude, you can't use pure Black Templars, you must use a combined Black Templar/Ultramarine/Blood Angels army if you want to play anywhere close to competitive.". Not that that would be against the background, but what if you simply do not want that? You're a fan of the Black Templars, so naturally you want to be able to field a pure Black Templar army and still be able to win. Chaos can't. Even if we disregard the codex creep from which current Chaos codex suffers due to its age, its entire principal layout is what bugs people off. You must play "big lovely Chaos family" or you loose your games. As simple as that.

 

Pure Nurgle is about the best CSM build there is at the moment. Mono Khorne and Slaanesh can be made to work, and even Thousand Sons can table SW if the dice gods are looking kindly. To be fair, if you're playing CSM at all these days, you're going to struggle, whether you bring a mixed army or the fluffiest Legion list you can think of.

 

Also, random question here I have to ask.

How is the possibility of two chaos codex lofty and overindulgent when there are a multitude of Imperial Marine codexs (Codecci? I always forget ><)? And before you say "WELL THE LEGIONS AREEN'T THAT DIFFERENT RABBLE RABBLE" isn't that the point though? That World Eaters want to feel different, or Emperor's Children? Isn't the Black Legion pretty much the Ultramarines of Chaos in terms of army mechanics/execution?

 

I've always thought that you really couldn't make a decent case for more than 3 Marine books: Marines, Grey Knights and Space Wolves, as the latter two are far enough removed from standard Marines to warrant the books. Even then Grey Knights are pushing it and always fit better into a Daemonhunter book. Angry Red Marines are really no different to Emo BlackGreen marines etc. ConverselyThe Legions are vastly more varied than the Codex Chapters, both in terms of history, goals and units. The simple fact that they have made SM Codex after SM codex suggests that it isn't financially viable to make multiple CSM books.

[Eerie]

I have no experience using pure Nurgle lists, but I can't concur with the statements about the others. Slaanesh and Tzeentch cult troops have very limited use in today games, especially with their price tag (whether you want to blame that on codex creep or their general working principle is up to debate). Berserkers are still a viable close combat unit no doubt. But a real, pure one-god army is very limited with the current codex. For example, I regard even obliterators as watering down the god specificness of my army. Obliterators are their own cult, separate from all the four major Chaos gods, and can be treated as Chaos undivided at best, so in a true, pure god-specific army, they shouldn't be in.

 

The Chaos factions differ vastly. In an ideal world that is never going to happen, each major Chaos faction could easily be worked into its own Codex. This is never going to happen. But still, from a background point of view, a pure Khornate army would act and fight very, very different from a pure Thousand Sons army. Much more than lets say the Ultramarines would differ from the Blood Angels. This should be represented in the game. Playing (against) a Berzerker army should give you a very different vibe from playing (against) a sorcerer-led Rubric army (just for example, same applies for the rest of the family). I am no rules professional and surely not among the most experienced players, so I wont go out on a limb suggesting any actual rules or something like that. But it should be possible to give each Chaos faction a really distinct flavour and still put them all in the same codex. Why not create army-wide special rules that only apply if every unit is dedicated to one specific god or something like that (okay now I am kinda suggesting actual rules... :P )?

[Captain Semper]

I think it would be a great opportunity to shift the focus from Gods to Legions. Instead of saying Nurgle Marines or Slaanesh Marines or Undivided marines you'd say Iron Warriors Marines, Night Lord Marines etc... My vision is that the main defining feature should be the Legion not the "religious" allegiance - or lack thereof. Of course you'd get the God-specific units (much like Uzas is on the path to become Khornate Marine) but the builds should be around the differences between the Legions. It should matter if your force is IW or WB and not just say Chaos Undivided and put them in the same basket. From what we've seen for far in the HH series and other BL novels each Traitor Legion had its own angle as to why they joined Horus spreading from the most religious to the most pragmatic... I would like to see this reflected in the new Codex.

[Legatus]

The Chaos factions differ vastly. In an ideal world that is never going to happen, each major Chaos faction could easily be worked into its own Codex. This is never going to happen. But still, from a background point of view, a pure Khornate army would act and fight very, very different from a pure Thousand Sons army. Much more than lets say the Ultramarines would differ from the Blood Angels. This should be represented in the game.

The thing is that other than with Codex Marines and Space Wolves, you wont have a number of Khorne armies and then a number of non-dedicated armies. There will be countless variations and combinations of units of the two. You might have armies that are 100% one or the other, but you can just as much have on that is 50/50, or 70/30, or... etc.

With Codex Marines or Space Wolves you will generally assume that their forces consist of only members of that Chapter, and fight independently from other forces. Though they can ally with other Imperial forces, such arrangements are usually for one particular battle or campaign specifically. With Chaos on the other hand, mixed warbands are common. That's why it makes sense to have all the Chaos Space Marine units in one book, while Codex Marines and Space Wolves in the same book would make less sense, since these units would generally not be used in the same army.

[the jeske]

They couldn't care less about the larger Legion; living in a realm of eternal Hell with no laws of space and time have depleted ancient bonds to more daily, relevant allegiances. They don't hate their Legion, they're still Night Lords, it's just a bond that applied ten thousand years ago holds little relevance for them now. They know they can't trust their own brothers, because all Chaos Marines spend as much time fighting each other as they do the Imperium.

what kind of a military organistation works like that ? It is as if a unit said we arent interested in your war anymore , nothing personal ,but we are going to do our own thing now . At best anyone who commandes the rest of the force would order them to A give back weapons/ammo/uniforms and even then it would have to be something special for him to accept something like that [war ends he up keep for troops is too high , but then again you cant have a population of armed people not under your direct control for example]. To go back to w40k any lord who would control a bigger warband would say "ok , give back ammo , weapons , armors and you ship and then we harvest the seed and you can go". Space marine legions are like monastic orders you cant just walk away , what someone personaly thinks about stuff is only important , if you happen to be the high commanders or/and primarch . thats even more true for cult marines , because being marked is like having a direct line to you god . a DG can say "today is the day when am stop doing the whole plague thing" but it is as good as shoting yourself in the head.

 

 

Warband 3 is a Night Lords warband with many newly initiated Night Lords over the course of the centuries, as they've needed to repopulate their ranks after losses in battle. Some of their squads are ancient veterans, others are newer blood. They feel the same about the Legion as Warband 1.

only that is not how social structures based on co optation work . If its the legion dudes which decide who is going to be one of them , then they wont let someone who thinks different to be part of the group . More they will teach any new group member how to be a legion time NL , because they dont know anything else . A XVII musketter cant teach a new recruit the figting philosphy of SAS.

 

 

 

Warband 6 is a Night Lords warband that (either because of a need to survive or a mutual alliance of trust) have allied with an equally sized Iron Warrior warband, to create a new warband led by a council of Night Lord and Iron Warrior Champions

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and the life of it will probably end after the first mission . two structures based on different systems with two different ways of thinking wont work . two same sized groups wont work with each other unless there is a 3ed trying to wipe them out and if it can force 2 same sized forces from different back ground to join up , then it is strong enough to do that . if it isnt the IW/NL wouldnt join up .

history does not know example of two different groups joing up and creating one . It was always one either wiping out the other or one disolving /being breed out. + both IW and NL are known for being border line paranoid [iW are distrusting to the extrem and NL have the whole suicidial thing going on , both because of their primarch geneseed] , how should that even suppose to work . I mean yes sm can stop sleeping , but even they have to at some time .

 

I'm trying to explain Chaos as it's been explained to me, and - dare I say it - as GW seems to intend it to be seen.

by the post H-man/chambers desing team which a lot of people dont like .Chambers idea was that warbands were like crusaders sent out by the pop , that most legions had high commands and structure [with exaptions like WE or EC for example which were always broken up in fluff] and not free booters chilling in the warp . its like RT chaos[or rather renegade] sm fluff coming back . Chambers times marines like the ones from Storm of Iron had goals as a legion[+personal of leader, troopers . nothing bad about that] and they knew how to fullfill them . The Gav dex csm are doing stuff to troll each other [realy taking ships from the biggest legion in your area huron , is that smart? like stealing a car from the local mob boss] or the loyalists .

 

The warband idea doesnt make sense . the eye of terror is not wild west or some border county . It is the most deadly enviroment for a flesh being to ever exist where his being is food for countless beings native to it . The very idea that csm even allied to a chaos gods could live and exist for 10k years in the warp in small groups is not very probable . No one says that the happy chaos family fluff is not cannon . It is I mean it is in our dex , even more in the chaos demon dex where demons of different gods fight side by side with no problems . But it doesnt make sense .Which for me is worse then the whole Calgar or Draigo thing . Because both of those could happen[both are stupids because they make other player angry . but they do make sense] .

 

 

Then explain what it's like to exist in the Eye of Terror, and explain how new Chaos Marines come to be

already done in the past by GW . its a hell . constant war against demons , other legions and each other . csm "like" to go on raids not because they are blood thirsty basterds[not that some of them arent] , but because for a normal "trooper" it is actualy safer being outside of the eye .

 

Demon World was always a good example how "easy" life is for non legion csm . 3 companies . good support . your employer is the head demon prince of the demon world . a month later your wiped out , because csm or not you cant deal with milions of humans and endless waves of demons .