Effect of Belial on FOC?

[Tengo]

Greetings brothers, I just need a slight clarification on the wording under the 'Army organisation' Subheading on Belial's entry on page 79.

 

Where it says "If Belial is in the army, Deathwing Terminator Squads may be treated as a Troops choice as well as an Elites choice'

 

Does that mean with Belial, Terminators can count as Troop choices Instead of Elites, or that they count as both Troop and Elite choices?

 

I was given to understand that fielding Belial allows you to take Terminators as troop choices, meaning that they don't consume elite slots on the FOC, but the wording 'as well as' means that with Belial in your army, Terminators count as both Elite and Troop choices, meaning that the only effect Belial has on the FOC is that you don't have to take two tactical squads for your army to be legal, allowing you to field a pure Deathwing army, albeit with a maximum of three terminator squads.

 

Sorry if it's a painfully stupid question, but I've found nothing clearing it up in any FAQ and the wording could mean that either understanding is correct.

 

Thanks in advance, be gentle :lol:

Tengo.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Belial lets you take up to three units of DW as Elites and up to six units of DW as Troops. Total nine.

The jury is out as to whether or not you tell your opponent which are which. I do, others don't.

[egon1six]

Stobz hit the nail on the head. RAW "...as well as..." translates to either or in my book. As Stobz mentioned it is always nice to tell your opponent which is which.

[krewl]

It's not just nice, but you are pretty much obligated to disclose suchs information to your opponent.

If you don't you could always use it as a way to cheat, and thats going to turn on you, cause if you say squad a and B score and are on objectives, if you didn;t make that clear up front, how are you going to prove they are? Your opponent can just as well say that those are the elite termies.

Though it's not cheating per see, it looks like you could cheat with it (And you can) so best to avoid it like the plague and just be open and up front about it.

 

Just don't try to pull that one, for the same reason you should clear up which squad in is which transport.

 

Always remember it's a game, you win it by playing better, building better lists or just having dumb luck (Hey, it's still a dice game :) ).

If you need the edge that your enemy can not tell which units are scoring you are doing something wrong sportsmanship wise.*

 

*Note, obviously just my opinnion, but I think it's shared by many a gamer.

[timmytool]

It's not just nice, but you are pretty much obligated to disclose suchs information to your opponent.

If you don't you could always use it as a way to cheat, and thats going to turn on you, cause if you say squad a and B score and are on objectives, if you didn;t make that clear up front, how are you going to prove they are? Your opponent can just as well say that those are the elite termies.

Though it's not cheating per see, it looks like you could cheat with it (And you can) so best to avoid it like the plague and just be open and up front about it.

 

Just don't try to pull that one, for the same reason you should clear up which squad in is which transport.

 

Always remember it's a game, you win it by playing better, building better lists or just having dumb luck (Hey, it's still a dice game :lol: ).

If you need the edge that your enemy can not tell which units are scoring you are doing something wrong sportsmanship wise.*

 

*Note, obviously just my opinnion, but I think it's shared by many a gamer.

 

Have you read BRB p92....."A Note On Secrecy" note even in the transport scenario you can just go: these 5 terminators are in this tank and the chaplain and his sq are in this tank.

 

You might need to say sq 1-9 to identify each sq(or mark the sq no. under the base for full secrecy) but unless full disclosure is required you do not "need" to identify which sq is troops and which are elite.

 

on your army list you identify which sq are scoring via sq no.'s but you dont need to tell your opponent which numbers are scoring and which are elite if it's not a full disclosure game.

 

Their are some people that like the idea of a "fluffy" mission were forces find each other with no prior intel..... [or add your own reasoning]

[Brother Immolator]

I agree that while it is enjoyable and puts a more strategic depth to the game(i am an advocate of not even showing your army list to the opponent but to a third party prior to the battle but well...)some people take it for not good sportsmanship.And in the case of scoring and non scoring terminators things get more complex.

 

It would be good idea of having a token or some other mark on your scoring terminators if you cant reason with an opponent.

 

But to the question above the answer is both.If you build an army composed of bel and terms only,only those taken as troops are scoring the rest are elites and thus not scoring.

 

Stupid rules,as if a dev or scout squad doesnt know how to hold an objective...I guess dark angels dont teach their scouts how to,they are been taught on the initiation to first company...sigh.....

[Tengo]

Thanks for the explanation Stobz much appreciated.

 

I thought that this was the case, I just got thrown off by 'as well as' which could be easily translated to mean 'either' or 'both'

 

I've got no intention to cheat or be untruthful, The army list I was making when I got puzzled by this only has terminators as troop choices anyway, so all my termies are scoring.

 

The way I usually play 40K foregoes WYSIWYG (because it's a very unnecessary rule, designed to put more money in GW's pockets) for complete Army list openness, After you have chosen your army, your opponent gets to read your army list, and you must explain which upgrades (that are not visible) are where, and things that are very contestable (Such as, which unit of terminators in your DW army count as scoring units) must be made as clear as possible at the start of the game.

 

Ofcourse, if someone decides to abide strictly by WYSIWG so as to put me at a disadvantage then bugger to openess, and although I won't lie about anything, they're not seeing my army list (an impartial third party can check my list if there's claims of cheating or point shaving) and I'm not telling them which termies are scoring units.

 

 

Personalising your terminators by giving each squad a squad name, and visually differentiating each squad (perhaps painting on the squad name, initials or emblem on the models) really helps for identification.

[march10k]

Good thing this doesn't come up until you add a seventh squad...

[krewl]

my point of viw is based on tournament play, causal games is where you could add the "hidden" effect, then again, in causal games the results don;t count for vry much.

 

From my point of view as a tournament player I intended it to be obvious, because you just can not have those kind of discussions after a game, becaue then you can't correct or replay the game anymore. That is why I am adamant (At least in my rulespacks) that lists should be shared pre-game.

 

Also I feel that I didn't really win by outplaying someone if that is the edge that got me the win. However you play your games is your own thing, feel free to dissagree :D.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Fortunately elites are where my dreadnoughts are, so this wouldn't come up.

[march10k]

Fortunately elites are where my dreadnoughts are, so this wouldn't come up.

 

 

Bingo...two vennies and five basic naked outflanking scouts...who often do more for me than the pair of vennies who, combined, cost 3.5x as much!