Xeraxen Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Honestly, I thought the Dark Angels would get more of a use of swords in their army. They are the Knights of Caliban after all, one would think they'd stick to the whole knight swordsman feel in terms of design in terms of tactical squad troops and the terminators. Anyone else feel the same in regards to this? In terms of wish listing for the upcoming codex, I'm personally wanting for Tactical squads to have access to bolters, pistols and chainswords for tactical flexibility [the Wolves get this, why can't we!?! D: ]. I've wondered if terminators would have a use for power swords in addition to storm shields just for the flexibility and perhaps sheer fun [with a special rule of some sort included?]. Honestly, for all their knightly heritage, the Dark Angels don't seems knightly enough IMO. >_> Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Belial Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The creation of the Black Templars took away most of our knightly image in favor of a more monkish look. I also would have loved a Dark Blade to be our version of Blood Talons. The blades would be the middle ground between a normal power sword and a Heavenfall blade. A lot of the Dark Angels thunder has been sapped away by the other codexes. It makes me wonder what is in store for our future. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Lions. Tons and Tons of Lions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Reaper Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Or more robed angels than you can poke a stick at! At least that's what I am hoping for. Makes more sense then an oversaturation of lions. I mean sure, the Deathwing could have the odd Lion here and there, maybe the ravenwing too. But i would like to see a focus on robed angels with their faces hidden in darkness, swords drawn and flying on wings of black... Now as to the swords for everyone all we need is a way to make Company Veterans Troops. Our Tactical Squads are Codex in nature and thus can't have CC weapons, but our Veteran squads are less strict in what they can and can't do (essentially representing Successor Chapters' 1st company without access to TDA). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Terrus Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Or more robed angels than you can poke a stick at! This. The robes were the thing that made me look at the Dark Angels. Come for the robes, stay for the best fluff of any Space Marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Yep, gotta love a Hessian Hoodie wearing badass. 'Tis the reason I confirmed DA as the Chapter of Choice for me too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viray Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Or more robed angels than you can poke a stick at! Or possibly a terrible, terrible mixture of both. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin_eX Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 A lot of this has to do with the decade of stagnation in design. Where other chapters got more stuff to jibe with their style and iconography we either got exactly what we had in 2nd or less than that. Between the initial 2nd Edition release we have lost our chapter's unique vehicle, sacred standards a handful of special characters and several other pieces of war gear. In return we have gained... ummm, Company Veterans. That said Company Veterans were a nice nod back to the knightly theme. The archaic helms, wings, ornate weaponry, maces and the very distinctive swords helped push the knightly imagery again. I'm hoping that we see more of that with the new models. More knightly accouterments for the Deathwing and Ravenwing would be neat (the Ravenwing are really growing in to their old-school hussar stylings as well and I'd love to see that kept). That said I also do want to see more lion iconography, not to Space Wolf levels but we had a dude with an animal totem name and that should probably pop up in a place or two in more than just name. Lion-sculpted chest plates and totem-helms would be nice (especially if we get a few that could be used for terminators). A few big cat pelts also couldn't go amiss (I've always wanted to paint up a DA character wearing a snow-leopard pelt). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Well note that I'm someone who often ask for change and evolution but for the Lion theme, I'm really not found of. I mean, except for the Capter master's name, the term "Lion" has never see to be used to describe something in the chapter's fluff... Nor been used in any sketches or drawnings in the previous codex. Look at our chapter masters or other character, DA sprues, FW dreadnoughts etc... None has any lion on them. Space wolves have such iconography beacause of their name and the fact that Fenris has lots of big wolves to hunt and fight with and it's a tradition to do so. There's no such story about DA. The order used to fight big chaotic beasts but there's nothing about them fighting or riding lions when they went to hunt. To me it looks more like to "SW have big wolves I want big Lions whatever fluff reason for that" rather than something based of the DA way to fight and history. On the other side, giving them a special ability to fight with sowrds and shield is IMO a very good idea. It was the Lion's official weapon of choice (see the fight against Russ) and the symbol of our chapter. In 3rd ed we also used to have the possibility to field the SoS. So there's logic out there! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkAngelLion Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Could you excuse a new player and tell exactly what our chapter specific vehicle was and which the chapter specific leaders was please? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droma Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Could you excuse a new player and tell exactly what our chapter specific vehicle was and which the chapter specific leaders was please? Mortis pattern dread released in one of the imperial armour books. Chaplains Asmodai and Saphon as well as Cypher were the characters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viray Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Mortis pattern dread released in one of the imperial armour books. Chaplains Asmodai and Saphon as well as Cypher were the characters. Wasn't the Landspeeder Tornado once unique to the Ravenwing as well? On the OP, I'm with the crowd saying that the Dark Angels could be made a bit more unique. However, that doesn't mean I'd want the Chapter's fluff to be changed in order to get things like the Space Wolves' Thunderwolves or the Blood Angels' Blood Talons. I'd rather deal with a bland TT army than deal with the hamfisted "theming" the other Chapters have been subjected to in recent years. The Dark Angels' have a very rich background; it shouldn't take much effort to draw inspiration from such material and create a Codex that appropriately represents the First Legion on the battlefield. For example, what about expanding the unit entry on Interrogator-Chaplains? They're an integral part of the Unforgiven, but the most GW could come up with to "differentiate" them from a normal Chaplain was a small boost in their wounds and leadership statistic. Wasted opportunity. Shoot, even adding back the characters they've taken away could go a long way in removing the Dark Angels' recent vanilla flavor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987307 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillyfish Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Wasn't the Landspeeder Tornado once unique to the Ravenwing as well? Not quite. :D Back in second all speeders had two heavy weapons. The standard speeder had a heavy flamer and multi-melta, but the Ravenwing speeder had the assault cannon and heavy bolter combo which was unique to us at the time. In terms of the army list, GW always seem to have struggled a little with making the army work on the tabletop. The army has evolved as follows: 2nd edition: Rules for RW and DW and Chapter organisation make the DA distinct to other Chapters. Special characters are added with wargear such as the book of salvation, the Sword of Secrets and the blades of reason. 3rd edition: Sapphon and Bethor disappear from the book as distinct characters. The idea of playing three distinct lists is encouraged although it's still possible to use units from all three. DW terminators are the only ones who can still 'mix and match' wargear. Imperial Armour 2 is released, with options for Mortis dreadnoughts and Landspeeder Tempests (for the Ravenwing). 3.5 edition: DW lose the ability to mix and match, but the army list generaly profits from access to the latest version of Codex SM (including the addition of the LR crusader) 4th edition: Possibly as a reaction to the previous book, the focus of the army is shifted to more of a 'combined arms' feel. Sammael is added to the Codex as is Belial (who previously appeared in the Storm of Vengeance campaign as Master of the 3rd company). Company veterans are added. The ability to have a more themed army is preserved. 5th edition: With the most recent FAQs, the Dark Angels RW and DW get a slight boost, making these failry effective builds, but leaving the idea of combined arms and the Greenwing a little behind. 6th edition: Who knows, but I'd guess the aim will be to make us more competitive and introduce multiple builds as was done for the Blood Angels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Some robed marines but faceless like the watchers model would be cool.Just as portaid in the codex in the pic in azraels entry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Well note that I'm someone who often ask for change and evolution but for the Lion theme, I'm really not found of. I mean, except for the Capter master's name, the term "Lion" has never see to be used to describe something in the chapter's fluff... Nor been used in any sketches or drawnings in the previous codex. Look at our chapter masters or other character, DA sprues, FW dreadnoughts etc... None has any lion on them. Space wolves have such iconography beacause of their name and the fact that Fenris has lots of big wolves to hunt and fight with and it's a tradition to do so. There's no such story about DA. The order used to fight big chaotic beasts but there's nothing about them fighting or riding lions when they went to hunt. To me it looks more like to "SW have big wolves I want big Lions whatever fluff reason for that" rather than something based of the DA way to fight and history. On the other side, giving them a special ability to fight with sowrds and shield is IMO a very good idea. It was the Lion's official weapon of choice (see the fight against Russ) and the symbol of our chapter. In 3rd ed we also used to have the possibility to field the SoS. So there's logic out there! Agreed the only time a lion shows up in the background is the caliban lions beasts of chaos. As for the swords and such the knightly orders died when caliban was destroyed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Agreed the only time a lion shows up in the background is the caliban lions beasts of chaos. As for the swords and such the knightly orders died when caliban was destroyed. The Lion Helm and and the Lion Sword... The Lion Sword belonged to the Lion and the Helm may have done so as well (I'm not certain about this...) but if they both belonged to the lion it is understandable that a lion may have been part of his heraldry. As for the Knight thing... I would like to point out that one of the core themes of Space Marines is the 'Sci-fi Space Knight'. If I take the Samurai for a moment and use them in comparison as they are the Japanese version of knights in my mind (feel free to disagree). Although the Katana is probably the most famous weapons the bow was one of the most important. It isn't the weapon but the learning, discipline and dedication define the knight, granted this wasn't always present in real knights but almost always in fictional knights, even the evil ones. While I wouldn't mind the sword being more prominent I don't think the DAs need it and remember combat knives are huge! Anyway Thundercats Thunderlions HO! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Agreed the only time a lion shows up in the background is the caliban lions beasts of chaos. As for the swords and such the knightly orders died when caliban was destroyed. The Lion Helm and and the Lion Sword... The Lion Sword belonged to the Lion and the Helm may have done so as well (I'm not certain about this...) but if they both belonged to the lion it is understandable that a lion may have been part of his heraldry. Of Jonson's personnal heraldry sure... But of the chapter's heraldry, it never occured. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tengo Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I think unless we get a new type of specialised veterans like the 'Sons of Jonson' or 'Lion Disciples', A secret order within the inner circle (Perhaps, they are like DA version of Custodes, and guard members of the inner circle) that retain the knightly traditions of Caliban, and adhere strictly to the Lion's doctrines, the Lion image should be kept separate from the chapter iconography. and no, just no to thunderlions or anything of the like. I think that perhaps there should be more swords, they should give us Heavenfall blades that aren't lame, and knightly vets (see above point) that get the option to carry swords and shields. Also, I can't help but thinking that our scouts should be more... shadowy and play a bigger role in hunting targets, maybe a separate class of scout, which are not just young initiates to the chapter, but actual stealthy hunters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987532 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I have no problem with the Lion theme being a secondary Motif in honor of the Primarch. Lions have certainly been used in England's coat of arms over the centuries though I don't believe their are any lions running around the island... are there? In my opinion Luther named him Lion El'Jonson in homage the the strong and brave character that Terran Lions represent (which totally could have been passed down through the ages), not a chaos spawn on Caliban. No different than Richard earning the "Lion-hearted" accolade. So my stance on the issue is the lion motif is fine - especially with the expansion on Primarch fluff due to the Horus Heresy novels. I don't however care to thunder lions or any sort of lion type riders. More OT, I like where ADB went with Savage Weapons. Honestly, I feel "Paladin" does actually fit the whole warrior monk idea. Unfortunately, "Paladin" has already been taken by the Grey Knights so I don't think we will be seeing that character creep into a new codex. The Grey Knights have probably stole a lot of steam from DA knight feel as well. A "Champion of the Lion" may be appropriate which plays up the lion motif. Also, I can't help but thinking that our scouts should be more... shadowy and play a bigger role in hunting targets, maybe a separate class of scout, which are not just young initiates to the chapter, but actual stealthy hunters. That's certainly come up before. The direction I like is some sort of Veteran RW scouts who don scout armor for particular missions. Of course now we are talking Space Wolf Scout territory. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 In terms of image, the sword is obviously important. It was the symbol of the Order, it was adopted by Jonson when he claimed his crown as the son of the Emperor, it was the icon that his "Little Brothers" have worn for 10,000 years on their shoulder. Yes, the Lion was an expert and coldly disciplined swordsmaster, the equal of Fulgrim or Sanguinius in technique and mastery. But, along with the Librarian and secrets themes, his swordsmanship is one of understanding, understanding his place, understanding his strength, understanding when and where to place that single strike. Curze, Russ or Angron, though heavily invested in their own traditions and styles, almost seem anathema to the way the Lion and his Legion approach a conflict. Does this translate into tacticals with swords? I don't necessarily think so. The idea of using "overwhelming" firepower, where and when it is needed is a theme often tied with the idea that the Dark Angels have access to the oldest technology of any Legion. The bolter is as sacred to a marine, as a sword and its hilt was to a crusading knight. It is many things, a weapon yes, but a reminder of something higher than them, a sacred symbol of their service to the divine, a responsibility to make the hard choices and dedications to use it to aid others who cannot help themselves. It is a symbol of service and above all, it reminds the bearer to be humble. It is just that discipline that would see a Dark Angel tactical marine use it, over other weaponry. Company Veterans / a potential specialty power armor unit (ala sanguniary guard) on the other hand ... I would love to see the use of swords or even shields used within that currently blank canvass. Have the elite use the weapon and symbol of the Primarch, i think the imagery/game mechanics would be much better kept within a "unique" unit, rather than spread across the board. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droma Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Company Veterans / a potential specialty power armor unit (ala sanguniary guard) on the other hand ... I would love to see the use of swords or even shields used within that currently blank canvass. Have the elite use the weapon and symbol of the Primarch, i think the imagery/game mechanics would be much better kept within a "unique" unit, rather than spread across the board. Agreed. Knights of the Inner Circle anyone? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexagon Sun Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Agreed. Knights of the Inner Circle anyone? Did you say two handed swords and dual wrist mounted plasma pistols?! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Agreed. Knights of the Inner Circle anyone? Did you say two handed swords and dual wrist mounted plasma pistols?! Sounds a bit gimmicky I think :) Honestly – bring on the Lionwing (fast attack Lion prides with rending claws and the Roar of Caliban) – you know it makes sense ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
company veteran Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 keep any kind of animal/mechanical lion away from my dark angels.. bring me dual handed chainswords and some kind of watcher in the dark familiar for my company master. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Turok Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Caliban was destroyed, along with all the corrupted life on it... sorry there are no more caliban lions like our primarch and Zahariel slayed. And if I recall those beasts were only that large because they were corrupted by chaos - could be wrong, been a while since I've read the books. However, swords, knights, etc do fit our fluff, chapter, and are our symbol of who we are. I don't think the templar took any of that away from us. We may not be nostalgic, dueling, honor-type knights like the templar but I definitely could see our ranking robed inner circle marines and deathwing command squads with large 2 handed relic blades (SOS anyone?) *wishlisting relic blade/SS temies - yes please!* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246773-the-sword-motif/#findComment-2987775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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