The sword motif...

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

As for the swords and such the knightly orders died when caliban was destroyed.

 

actually, the Knightly orders where extinguished with the arrival of the Imperium, the only one left when the Emperor arrived was The Order, and that was assimilated into The Dark Angels Legion. I also firmly believe that the Knightly traditions continued into the Legion and where adopted more into it.

 

For example, savage weapons shows this with Paladin Corswain and the interaction between himself and the Lion. I see it as an interplay between a Monarch, or Leige-lord and his favored Knights. When on the surface, the Lion and the two DA marines interaction with the NL is shown as them being honourable and knightly while the NL are living up to their theme of terror and 'the night'. Jonson apologizes for stabbing his brother with no warning, to him thats the ultimate low blow.

 

So, I think Knightly themes, NOT arthurian knights or templar knights, but more monastic, order knights makes sense. The kind of knights on a quest. i dont say shiny knights.

 

I would love to see more swords and other weapons make it into the new codex, and the Champions being called paladins. That would be cool imho

[Ronin_eX]

Arthurian Knights were the original questing knights. They quested after an impossible goal just as the Dark Angels do. The Hunt For the Fallen is their Holy Grail that will forever be unattainable. Their background is a dead ringer for Once and Future King right down to Mordr...err...Luther's betrayal of his friend and lord. Also remember that Arthurian Knights did have a monastic/religious streak as well and were very much meant to be holy warriors. It is important to remember that Arthurian legend wasn't shiny but rather just larger than life and mythic. That's why I think the Arthurian motif fits the Dark Angels so well at this point.

 

They have a very legendary and mythic feel to them stretching back to the glory days of the Great Crusade but they also have that tragic fall that mirrors that of Camelot. Arthurian myth is one of resplendent pasts left behind for ruddy and brutal presents and futures. It is easy to forget how dark Arthurian legend could get and I think that dichotomy is the perfect stylistic choice for the Dark Angels.

 

As for the Lion motif, I certainly don't want them actually showing up in the flesh but having the iconography around as a totem would certainly not go amiss. Some of my favourite DA art has lion iconography attached to it and I'd love to see it show up on some physical models for once. It not only remembers our link to our Primarch but it also fits stylistically as the Dark Angels are such a staunch and honourable group. I'd love to see company champions rocking lion crests, shoulders or chest plates emblazoned in gold. It wouldn't be something you see everywhere but it would be present in a few places because it is woefully underused as a visual motif.

[Brother Immolator]

I think unless we get a new type of specialised veterans like the 'Sons of Jonson' or 'Lion Disciples', A secret order within the inner circle (Perhaps, they are like DA version of Custodes, and guard members of the inner circle) that retain the knightly traditions of Caliban, and adhere strictly to the Lion's doctrines, the Lion image should be kept separate from the chapter iconography.

 

and no, just no to thunderlions or anything of the like.

 

I think that perhaps there should be more swords, they should give us Heavenfall blades that aren't lame, and knightly vets (see above point) that get the option to carry swords and shields.

 

Also, I can't help but thinking that our scouts should be more... shadowy and play a bigger role in hunting targets, maybe a separate class of scout, which are not just young initiates to the chapter, but actual stealthy hunters.

 

That sounds like my kind of army!

[shortysl]

How about something like Dante's silly 'i've scared you with my golden mask and so you lose half of your stats'? I'm only half serious on that one, but the fell reputation of things and/or people 'disappearing' around the Dark Angels (Ophidian Gulf anyone?) has to count for something in game terms. It's an integral part of our mystique.

[Marshal Rohr]

Because the Lion motif was SOOO overplayed in the Astral Claws right!?!? It's an animal theme that hasn't been explored and would look very nice if done well. If your hoping for a more knightly theme, stop. That's been Templar territory since Armageddon 3. GW will have to take you in a new direction for a theme besides mysterious. You can't model repentance.

[Gillyfish]

If your hoping for a more knightly theme, stop. That's been Templar territory since Armageddon 3.

 

Hmm, I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. If you're talking crusading knights then arguably yes, but all Chapters have some knightly feel to them, but some more than others. It's played up more in the Templars than in the DA, but it's never entirely disappeared from the DA (lots of talk of personal heraldry, the Ravenwing). But the two chapters have different knightly flavours about them.

 

The Templars seem, to me anyway, to have more of the Teutonic Knights about them, together with other crusading orders. The Grey Knights embody more of the paragon of knightly virtue prevalent in popular culture. The DA are more monastic overall, but they also have a knightly feel to some of their units (the origins of the Ravenwing for example) and, as Ronin Ex pointed out, they fit the mould for Arthurian tragedy in many respects, which again is a ratehr different flavour of knight, especially if you go back to some of the texts that predate the Morte D'Arthur.

 

I wouldn't say that knights are the DA's primary theme anymore, but it is a strong sub-theme to the Chapter and could be reflected with the Inner Circle or various sword-wielding units.

[Hexagon Sun]

I think above anything else I'd just like all of the various themes to be consolidated to something more solid even if there is a slight retcon of previous fluff. So any new units introduced just enhance that as opposed to add another theme that clashes, which lions could possibly do if introduced on top of the existing stuff. At the moment, there's three differing colour schemes, plus three variations of the chapter symbol, plus feathers, plus robes which really is enough. Personally i'd be happy to see the plains world fluff be retconned slightly to lose the whole feathers thing and introduce a slight chapter wide lion sub theme in it's place to unify everything.

 

I was partially joking about the two handed swords and wrist mounted plasma pistols before, as I could imagine a unit similar to the swordmasters of hoeth with massive relic blades and robes. Similar to the marine in the bottom right of the codex cover but looking a bit more badass. They could always be deathwing instead, which would be pretty cool.

[Augustus]

I think one of the themes of Dark Angels IS an Identity Crisis.

 

Even in the Horus Heresy books, the Lion tells the recruits to forget their past lives. He tries to forget his own past life of in the wilderness. What is it Azrael tells the new Recruits 10k years later? That said, I like a lot of what Ronin and Gillyfish have said. The Dark Angels do not have to fit into an preconceived niche. They can simply be Dark Angels. Monastic Knightly orders seeking repentance that they can never truly get via their own qualifications for said forgiveness. Why wouldn't they honor their Primarch with images of him? Images that speak of a Lion. There were at least 3 Calibanite lions and they were pretty effin tough. (I included the primarch)

 

A successor called the Sons of Caliban obviously reflects homage to Caliban. So given that, Caliban tradition could live on through the Dark Angels?

Dark Heresy RPG gives each Dark Angel a sword. Possibly a reflection of Knightly..ness?

The Purging of Kalladius states the Naman is the XXX Marine to carry the name. That implies homage to those up to when? Possibly all the way to a Knight of Caliban?

 

My ramblings aside. Im looking forward to a refreshing bit of lore. And MORE MORE MORE Successors. I really enjoy the secret legion motif

[EPK]

I really enjoy the secret legion motif

 

Second that! I don't neccasarily need more successors, just more on them.

 

I agree with the rest though. There is more than one way to portray knightly character.

 

The Templars can have their crusader image

The Grey Knights can have their pop culture style (as Gilly put it)

And the DA can have their dark and cloistered monastic theme.

 

There is certainly other chapters with knightly aspects as well. As noted, Space Marines in general can display a knightly characteristic.

 

Because the Lion motif was SOOO overplayed in the Astral Claws right!?!? It's an animal theme that hasn't been explored and would look very nice if done well. If your hoping for a more knightly theme, stop. That's been Templar territory since Armageddon 3. GW will have to take you in a new direction for a theme besides mysterious. You can't model repentance.

 

Hmmm.... Maybe GW will have to take the Templars in a different direction! I feel the Horus Heresy series is going to help drive some of the codex writing, how can it not? And guess who's in it depicted in a more knightly way than any other Legion? Dark Angels! Guess who's not in it at all? Templars :)

 

PS - Stop stealing our robes and hoods for your models.

[Marshal Rohr]

Because the Lion motif was SOOO overplayed in the Astral Claws right!?!? It's an animal theme that hasn't been explored and would look very nice if done well. If your hoping for a more knightly theme, stop. That's been Templar territory since Armageddon 3. GW will have to take you in a new direction for a theme besides mysterious. You can't model repentance.

 

Hmmm.... Maybe GW will have to take the Templars in a different direction! I feel the Horus Heresy series is going to help drive some of the codex writing, how can it not? And guess who's in it depicted in a more knightly way than any other Legion? Dark Angels! Guess who's not in it at all? Templars :D

 

PS - Stop stealing our robes and hoods for your models.

 

Stop having such tasty and decent looking bitz!!

 

As much as I want Templars to be next the sheer amount of marine parts being released (Dark Angels and Legio specific upgrades) will make me very happy. Here's to hoping for a Deathwing Box to go with the veterans and ravenwing. If Templars really are last then I'll have the best of everything to build a new army.

[EPK]

Ah, suppose it goes both ways, I've seen many a conversion using Templar tabard bodies to make robed DW. Having their own boxed set would definitely be awesome. And that's certainly a positive way to look at being last.

[Marshal Rohr]

My favorite Legions in order are: Imperial Fists, Dark Angels, Abnetts Space Wolves, and Blood Angel. So I look forward to the codex.

 

For imagery and look, I think swords and shields will be handled by the Templars. Arcane Wargear with a knightly twist is what I am seeing GW go for with the Angels. I'm hoping for subtle lion pieces so I can create my Marshal Ricard the Lionheart :) .

 

If you look at all the classical knight imagery, most of it is already covered.

 

Crusaders-Black Templars

Knights of the Reconquista-Crimson Fists

Chivalric Knights-Grey Knights

 

I think the Dark Angels would do well with a bit more of the Knights Templar mixed in.

 

The most powerful and technologically wealthy chapter in the Imperium (The Rock and arcane weaponry). Shrouded in secrecy and ritual (the various stories told to brothers as they rise in rank). Dark rumors circulate about their loyalty (leaving allies abandoned). Deep political ties (Deathwatch and Inquisitors who support the chapter). Large amounts of controlle territory across the Imperium (various recruiting worlds). Seeking an unachievable goal (hunting the fallen). Hidden strength spread out across the Imperium (inner circle). Armies with loyalty to the Dark Angels first (hidden legion). Respect for knowledge (GotC and libraries on the Rock).

 

The Knights Templar would be a good place to draw inspiration from.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

My favorite Legions in order are: Imperial Fists, Dark Angels, Abnetts Space Wolves, and Blood Angel. So I look forward to the codex.

 

For imagery and look, I think swords and shields will be handled by the Templars. Arcane Wargear with a knightly twist is what I am seeing GW go for with the Angels. I'm hoping for subtle lion pieces so I can create my Marshal Ricard the Lionheart ;) .

 

If you look at all the classical knight imagery, most of it is already covered.

 

Crusaders-Black Templars

Knights of the Reconquista-Crimson Fists

Chivalric Knights-Grey Knights

 

I think the Dark Angels would do well with a bit more of the Knights Templar mixed in.

 

The most powerful and technologically wealthy chapter in the Imperium (The Rock and arcane weaponry). Shrouded in secrecy and ritual (the various stories told to brothers as they rise in rank). Dark rumors circulate about their loyalty (leaving allies abandoned). Deep political ties (Deathwatch and Inquisitors who support the chapter). Large amounts of controlle territory across the Imperium (various recruiting worlds). Seeking an unachievable goal (hunting the fallen). Hidden strength spread out across the Imperium (inner circle). Armies with loyalty to the Dark Angels first (hidden legion). Respect for knowledge (GotC and libraries on the Rock).

 

The Knights Templar would be a good place to draw inspiration from.

 

I like this interpretation, i think its good to hear from someone is not at the heart of the Legion, yet cares for the Legion

[EPK]

Good points Marhsal.

 

I'd venture a guess that sword and shield , emphasis on shield, was never a DA thing. And with respect to fluff generated by the heresy novels, pre-Imperium Caliban knightly orders - or at least The Order itself - favored sword and pistol...

 

Was there any knightly orders in our own history that came post gun powder I wonder? Conquistadors come to mind, but they are related to the Reconquista, and you note the Crimson Fists already have that feel.

 

EDIT: Than again, shields are found a lot in DA icons already (I was thinking actual armament).

[Tengo]

You can't model repentance.

 

 

I'm sure the Arco-flagellants would disagree. ;)

[Interrogator Stobz]

Good points Marhsal.

 

I'd venture a guess that sword and shield , emphasis on shield, was never a DA thing. And with respect to fluff generated by the heresy novels, pre-Imperium Caliban knightly orders - or at least The Order itself - favored sword and pistol...

 

Was there any knightly orders in our own history that came post gun powder I wonder? Conquistadors come to mind, but they are related to the Reconquista, and you note the Crimson Fists already have that feel.

 

EDIT: Than again, shields are found a lot in DA icons already (I was thinking actual armament).

 

We get a lot of shields and swords with our various sprues, so I'd hazard to say swords and shields are exactly what we do. What other Chapters do is irrellevant to us as the 1st Legion and the fact that many SM Chapters share similar styles doesn't diminish ours.

 

I like the sword and pistol look but we have holsters for a reason ;)

[Marshal Rohr]

Well, ALL chapters use shields. Right now, no chapter has access to them more than another.

 

Dark Angels: HQ, DW, Co Vets, Cmd Sqds

Blood Angels: HQ, VG, HG, AT

Space Wolves: HQ, WG, LW, WGT

Space Marines: HQ, VG, Cmd Sqds, AT

Black Templars: HQ, Cmd Sqds, SBAT, SB, AS

 

Each army has 3-5 units that can kit out with shields, so its not like shields are any ONE chapters deal right now. However, with all things considered, shields are used to protect yourself to close with your foes. If Dark Angels get them, I'd like to see them on Assault Marines. I have always seen the assault marines as the 'knights' of the Dark Angels, and I hope they will be represented as such in the next go around. I also hope the 'Company Veterans' goes away entirely, and DA tactical squads are given access to some of their options instead.

[wacca]

Interesting points so far guys,

The Dark Angels are the first chapter and where very popular back in the day, Templars and Grey knights have stolen a lot of our thunder though.

We do have some chapter specific stuff. the land raider Ares. Why haven't GW/ forgeworld released a upgrade sprue like they have for BA/Grey knights Storm Raven Baal pred Furiso dread etc.

one of the first books I read was about the Deathwing and why they painted their armour white, I would like to see a return of native Indian totem stuff like the old metal Death wing models had.

I like the idea of a Lion guard for the inner circle these would be good as termies with sword and storm shields

The King Arthur stuff isn't true, he was around during the Dark ages hence no written records. he was celtic so wouldn't have searched for the holy grail ( a Christian symbol). plate armour like you see in the movies didn't exist, they had armour similar to Romans. The reason it's portrayed this way is a monk wrote a story a century later.

I'm seeing a lot of Belial conversions using lughft shoulder pads. I would like them to re launch the chapter heros, Azreal is a pretty poor model compared to some other chapter commanders he's far to small. we've got Samueal, lets have Belial, a new Azreal, Asmondai and Ezekial and more feathers

[Marshal Rohr]

A new Azrael model would be awesome, but sadly, if Dante is still rocking the 2nd Ed. Model, I have no hope for Azrael. Maybe a new Asmodai or Sapphon. Hopefully they will use the Dark Angels as an opportunity to release a Terminator 'Captain' Box. A new Ezekial as perfectly detailed as Loth would be legit too.

[EPK]

The King Arthur stuff isn't true, he was around during the Dark ages hence no written records. he was celtic so wouldn't have searched for the holy grail ( a Christian symbol). plate armour like you see in the movies didn't exist, they had armour similar to Romans. The reason it's portrayed this way is a monk wrote a story a century later.

 

I think it's safe to say that they were referring to the whole romanticized Arthurian legends.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

The King Arthur stuff isn't true, he was around during the Dark ages hence no written records. he was celtic so wouldn't have searched for the holy grail ( a Christian symbol). plate armour like you see in the movies didn't exist, they had armour similar to Romans. The reason it's portrayed this way is a monk wrote a story a century later.

 

actually, its accepted that IF he lived, then he was a Romano-British King which means he was, most likely, a 'christian' ruler. the Dark Ages came after the fall of the Roman Empire, and the Catholic (and Celtic) Churches were dominant in Britain

 

however, I was referring to the knight in shining armour imagery commonly associated with Arthurian legend thanks to that said Monk. The DA do incorporate a lot of it into their earlier fluff, ie: great crusade era. I would like to see an expansion on our quest, as well as what Marshalls has said, being the 40k style Knights Templars (NOT Tuetonic, which is the model for the BT) and wielding enormous influence in the Imperium, albeit without most of the Imperium realising it. As well as ruling over a large number of actual world, considering the DA have 3-4 recruitment worlds (at least) plus whatever else each successor has accsess to...

 

There is a ton of room to expand our fluff in areas we probably dont think of when we imagine the DA. I, for one, am excited to see what new things, as well as old things, get expanded and introduced

[Gillyfish]

Going slightly OT, but the earliest Arthurian stories from the medieval period depict Arthur fighting the Romans. There were a range of other characters (King Pellinor/Pellynor being a favourite of mine) and they were generally more boisterous in tone than Mallory. That kind of fits the DA for me - grittier, less clean cut.

 

Having said all of that, I imagine that the DA will get swords (even if they aren't with special rules) but probably not the shields (just as M2C says). I think GW think of the DA as being their 'ranged' Chapter so I would expect to see that with some more development of the idea that we have access to stuff that other Chapters haven't (erroneously exemplified by plasma in 3rd edition and more recently with having the last jetbike in the Imperium and a handy shield for Landspeeders).

[Brother Immolator]

Asmodais and Ezks models are fine as they are me thinks.We need mr Belli more than anything else now.

 

I have always seen the assault marines as the 'knights' of the Dark Angels, and I hope they will be represented as such in the next go around

 

The bikers are established fluffwise to be our knights.Though i too would love some heraldic assault marines with viable options.We are angels after all.

[Brother Landrain]

Using the sword motif, as well as the Knightly theme, and the mystery of the Dark Angels...

 

Here is my idea of a Dream Unit...(taking inspirition from a picture used in Ronins Sig)

 

Name: The Lions Protectorate

Purpose: These Dark Angels have risen above service in the Deathwing, some are former Masters, Some former Chaplain,

 

even former Librarians. They have been chosen by the Supreme Grand Master for the Ultimate Service. They Guard the

 

Deepest and Darkest corners within the Rock. Insuring that the safety and existence of the Traitor Luther among

 

others is never revealed to those outside the Inner Circle. They also are the Bodyguards and Protectors of the

 

Primarch Lion'el Johnson as he lies in Stasis awaiting his awakening to serve the Emperor in one last crusade. The

 

one mission that the Protectorate is destined to perform, is the Capture and Internment of the Dark Angles biggest

 

nemesis Cypher.

 

FOC: The Lion's Protectorate Take up an HQ and an Elite Slot, but do not count as fulfilling the HQ requirement for a valid Army.

 

Unit size: 3-10

 

Cost: 65 pts per model

 

Type: Jump Infantry

 

Stats: WS 5 BS 5 S 4 T 4 W 2 A 2 I 4 Ld 10

 

Wargear:

--Artificier Armour (2+ Save)

--Personal Teleporter (jump infantry, 1x 30" Shunt a game)

--Two-Handed Master Crafted Relic Blades (Str 6)

--Lion Pelts (Admantium Mantles) immune to Instant Death

--Crux de'Lion Shield - Shoulder Pads with Lion motif with built in Refractor Field (4++ Save)

--Wrist Mounted Storm Bolter

--Assault and Defensive Grenades

 

Special Rules:

Fearless

Deep Strike

Hunt the Fallen (Cypher)

 

Options:

-- Any model may replace his wrist mounted Storm Bolter with:

>wrist mount Hand Flamer for 5 pts

>wrist mount Melta Pistol for 10 pts

>wrist mount plasma Pistol for 15 pts

 

-- One Model May Carry a Sacred Standard for 30 pts.

> All Sacred Standards are considered Chapter Banners.

> Standard of Retribution : TBD ~ Counter Attack

> Standard of Devastation : TBD ~ Ferocious Charge

> Standard of Fortitude : TBD ~ Relentless

 

-- One model may be upgraded to a Protectorate Apothecary for 35pts, replacing Storm Bolter with Narthecium/Reductor:

 

The unit gains Feel no Pain.

-- One model may be upgraded to a Protectorate Chaplain for 35 pts, Replacing Relic Blade with Master Crafted Two

 

Handed Crozius Arcanum(str 6): The unit gains Prefered Enemy

-- One model may be upgraded to a Protectorate Librarian for 55 pts, Replacing Relic Blade with a Two Handed Force

 

Sword(Str 6), and gaining a Psychic Hood. The Protectorate Librarian can pick any Power from the Dark Angels list.

 

The Protectorate Librarian may choose additional Powers for 5 pts each. For 25 points the Librarian may be upgraded

 

to a Protectorate Codicier and have the ability to use two psychic powers per turn.

[MadDoc]

I'd personally prefer a fluffy unit myself.

 

Here is my idea of a Dream Unit...(taking inspirition from a picture used in Ronins Sig)

 

Name: The Lions Protectorate

Purpose: These Dark Angels have risen above service in the Deathwing, some are former Masters, Some former Chaplain,

 

even former Librarians. They have been chosen by the Supreme Grand Master for the Ultimate Service. They Guard the

 

Deepest and Darkest corners within the Rock. Insuring that the safety and existence of the Traitor Luther among

 

others is never revealed to those outside the Inner Circle.

First error, the Chapter Master is one of the few, if not the only member, of the Inner Circle to know of Luthers survival and imprisonment.

 

They also are the Bodyguards and Protectors of the

 

Primarch Lion'el Johnson as he lies in Stasis awaiting his awakening to serve the Emperor in one last crusade. The

 

one mission that the Protectorate is destined to perform, is the Capture and Internment of the Dark Angles biggest

 

nemesis Cypher.

Second error and a swing and miss. First the error, nobody in the Chapter knows of the Lions presence within the Rock, so thats completely off. And the swing and miss, if this formation exists within the Chapter and is primary role is hunting Cypher, then why was there a need for Chapter Master Anaziel to request the formation of The Disciples of Caliban and then task them with that very role?

 

Fluff fail all around.