Some new DA specific rumours on Warseer

[Captain Semper]

As for the potential for Chaplain units (or even squad attachments), that is the kind of fluff expansion I like seeing. It takes a few old bits (and new bits) of Dark Angels fluff and runs with them. The position of Chaplain has always been an interesting one in the Dark Angels with them being a very active part of our dark secret. It would be interesting if junior Chaplains were attached at the squad level to screen brothers for potential elevation. It would also help get across how different our upper echelons are structured than Codex Astartes marines. Sure it isn't fluff that existed before but since when has that been a requirement since 3rd Edition hit?

 

The position of the Chaplain has indeed been interesting. Partially in my view due to their uniqueness and super-elite status. Having groups of them running together, cheapens said status and trivialises them. Having an individual Chaplain leading a squad is fine and is there already. Since every Company has a Chaplain, it makes sense and frankly that is the basic business of a Chaplain accross all Chapters. Now if the rumor is true, I'd rather see something akin to Sanguinary Priests rather than Wolf Guard. They are single elites choice (great), they are few 1-3 (even better) one of them could a Special Character (fine with me). So you could get, in a sensible army, an Interrogator (HQ) and more than one other Chaplain (elite) but not too many. Of course if said Chaplain were to come as a single individual it'll be even better for me fluff-wise. But I wouldn't mind the Sang Priests approach too much. And if they were to make them not to take up an elites slot that'll be great. But I think it's too much to ask.

 

On plasma I'm neutral. It shouldn't be a defining feature (too shallow) but having plasma toys is a welcome bonus I'd say... Let's see.

 

I do like Mech B).

 

Really? You learn a new thing every day! hahahaha ;) ;)

 

 

EDIT: by "you" I meant "I". I used "you" as a generic experssion not as personal address... It just shows English is not my mother tongue! :D

[Interrogator Stobz]

snip

 

Really? You learn a new thing every day! hahahaha ;) B)

 

I'm a bit simple, once I learn one thing in a day, I go back to bed :D

 

EDIT: I got that mate, your meaning was perfectly clear and well done on the English thing. My answer above was just a self depreciating joke about learning. No offence taken.

[Candleshoes]

The official codexes have always displayed the DA as being allrounders, even the 3E Codex that supposedly makes them 'shooty' never once even so much as hints at them being shooty (the play style some people adopted as a result of the lame Intractable rule is a product of their choice not any background stating the DA are shooty).

 

Well said MD.

 

I always looked at the "shooty" mentality, as something that people create and spread word of mouth that comes directly from the Lion being a swordsman. His marines like you said are very well rounded, but like many of the Legions, they do take on certain characteristics of their Primarch (I'm looking at you Salamanders, Vulkan and the hammer and anvil tactics. Hold the line, and then bear your full strength in the blows that follow)

 

The Lion was an expert and coldly disciplined swordsmaster, the equal of Fulgrim or Sanguinius in technique and mastery. But his swordsmanship is one of understanding, understanding his place, understanding his strength, understanding exactly when and where to place that single killing strike.

 

Time and time again in fluff bits over the years, we see the Dark Angels rely on that overwhelming blow/firepower against a weak component in an enemy to shatter them, often brilliant tactics used to set up the blow, with always some risk. Even the Lion and the Wolf story sees them break through in this way. That "overwhelming firepower" mentality can easily get muddied up into shooty, and have people believing it exists in background, when it doesn't.

[Droma]

I don't mind more plasma, I do mind if it becomes our entire focus though. If we get more plasma as well as other ancient wargear I think that would be cool.

 

I already said my bit about chaplains in the warseer thread but overall I like the idea.

 

As for shooty....yeah I'm not sure where in the fluff it states that. The closest thing is the application of overwhelming firepower which doesn't fully equal shooty. Personally I'd like to see more emphasis on swordsmanship.

[Interrogator Stobz]

That is absolutely right Candleshoes, I don't want to start a fight but looking back on this thread I comment with caution B).

 

As you and others say: The DA have always been portrayed in codex fluff as tactically excellent all-rounders, with outstanding swordsmanship and the ability to strike at the enemies weakest point. That sentiment brings a lot of players to the DA as the idea of being smart is admirable, it is certainly one of the reasons I began with them all those moons ago. That, SWORDSMANSHIP and green, I love painting green.

 

They also have been occasionally stated as having lots of ancient tech, possibly more than other Chapters. While other Chapters may have more 'artistic' gear or more 'robust' gear we have been tarred with having 'ancient' gear. Whatever that means to each of us I leave to each of you, to me PLASMA plays a big part in that equation.

 

I am not so sure the novels about us reinforce the tactically or strategically excellent idea, it gets stated enough but the reality is that we get tricked by Fallen, tricked by Orks!!! and outmanouvered for TWO years by NLs (and lose swordfights AFTER we stab the other guy first!!!) that's whenever we aren't beating ourselves up after reacting too slowly or getting too introverted for our own good :P

Not so smart really but actually very reactive, I blame the Authors even though I enjoyed every DA book and still do. I read somewhere that we still do ok vs meatsacks and Wolves but the Vraks books don't do us any favours vs chaos either.

 

As DA are nearly 25 years old, the reality of this game is that the rules and their previous itterations define the DA at least as much as the fluff. Many loyal DA players play DA because at some stage they liked the playstyle that the rules 'encouraged'.

Whether that choice was to powergame or just to mitigate one of our many inbuilt codex weaknesses is neither here nor there (and very DAish btw), our DA history has a real life component and that will not leave many of our loyal players.

 

I have always liked Razorspam and mechanised infantry, even when it wasn't the best option of choice, a friend of mine liked to spam Tornados at one point. That is why my army looks the way it does and his looks the way it is. My army has evolved slightly with each edition, his has not and now he doesn't play 40k.

I'm not selling mine and replacing it with a 'current fluff' "historical fluff' nor a 'Tactically excellent all-rounder' army to suit anothers idea of fluff and I certainly dont expect others to change theirs either. If I was a powergamer or regular tournament player I would do things differently too (CML THSS foot spam DW anyone?). I am lucky that I have plenty of models to choose from depending on the style of game my oponent wants to play.

 

To each their own with their version of what makes DA official at any given point in our history. My opinion will always be mine alone, the rules must suit ones playstyle or staying loyal to narrowly written fluff becomes that much harder and people drift toward other chapters/armies.

 

Here's hoping our fluff and rules get a bit of a hose down and reordered into something broader and yet more unifying at the same time. These rumours are a nice start.

 

stobz

 

Hope that was relevant, clear and didn't antagonise anyone :)

 

Edit: I can't believe I forgot to mention SWORDSMANSHIP and PLASMA.

[Hexagon Sun]

But you know what, it can easily be tied to past fluff of us being (before the Lion was re-discovered) the Emperor's personal guard during the Great Crusade. So we were given access to more funky prototype and advanced weaponry back in the day. This translates to us having more archeotech 10,000 years later. Plasma weapons are fluffed up as being rare and ancient weapons, so they fit the mold. That said, other things can fit in there. TDA, coversion beamers, various old-school defense fields, jetbikes, etc.

 

This and pretty much everything else Ronin said sum up my thoughts on the matter. If we're tactical all rounders that does pretty much equate to the vanilla dex and we'll need some way of distinguishing us from that. Whether it be through plasma, conversion beamers, unique/new terminator weapons, chaplains attached to squads, jetbikes, unique tank/flyer, mortis dread or whatever, it needs to be done to make the codex interesting and rewarding to play but still fluffy. We can still be all rounders but there has to be some distinction there and then the inevitable problem comes when there has to be some kind of drawbacks for the new toys. Otherwise the vanilla players will complain and it'll all be given to them as well.

 

The emphasis is on the "ancient" part really, it can even be pre Great Crusade purely because we appeared to be the Emperors bodyguard. It doesn't take much of a stretch to imagine that being the case and I'm presuming the bodyguard reason is why we've also got enough TDA to kit out the Deathwing 100% all of the time. I know it was developed during the Great Crusade but it's never specified when and I don't see anyone complaining about that particular "ancient tech" at all with full DW armies!

 

With that in mind I also think it'd be nice to see some older variants of armour in a Deathwing set if they finally do get round to releasing one. It'd give them even more of a unique look and also justify it as i'll bet you'd get a lot of 30k players buying it since FW haven't done any as yet.

 

I'd like to point out I don't actually play the game as yet, i've not in about 12 years due to a long break so all my thoughts are from a fluff/background perspective as well as what I think would look/feel right.

[Uhr]

BA got Librarian Dreadnought; we might get Chaplain Dreadnought; Forgeworld has already a fine model and some experimental rules for it. That would be such a great addition to the Deathwing!

 

I wouldn't like to see a "mob" of Chaplains, as many said already, cause IMO it would trivialise their position; but I do think that it is a good idea to make Chaplains Elites choice, but Interrogator Chaplains HQ. I also wouldn't like to see Jetbikes, aside than Sammael, and eventually his Command Squad. I would also like to see Ravenwing Scouts, that are elites, aside from regular recruit Scouts. Those elite Ravenwing scouts would got Bike or Land Speeder Storm options, and would have better stats than regular Scouts (maybe those that our Scouts, also elites, have nowdays with some better gear and USR). I really hope Matt Ward is not coming near our codex, cause I don't want to see "ThunderLions", flying/angel Terminatours, special "Watchers in the Dark" sorcerer/assassins, lol, etc... I would also like that they change our company veteran unit into Unforgiven unit, that consist of a squad made of all Unforgiven members, almost like Deathwatch unit, and they could only be fielded when Azrael is taken. Azrael, and other characters should get better stats, and also Supreme Grand Master, at least, but probably all Company Masters should get Orbital Bombardment, since we are fleet based; even Sammael and Belial. I think we ought to get Master of the Forge as special character, cause who knows what secrets they can uncover with ancient tech, and maintaining our gear; and Venerable Dreadnoughts; but Codex says that we keep Adeptus Mechanicus servants on some distance; so I made even a story about Techmarine Isiah, that uncovered some of the great secrets of our Order and with time connected some of the missing pieces, and in trying times he turned his back to Adeptus Mechanicus and stayed loyal to his Unforgiven brothers, he even killed Master of the Forge. After that act of loyalty to his brothers, he become a new Master of the Forge; and as well the first Techmarine inducted into Deathwing. This way we can field Terminatour Techmarine, and it would be cool to give him as a par of the Servo-Harness a Conversion beam. Also I think we should get the new Land Raider variant, and I "invented" Land Raider Venator (Hunter), which would give firesupport to our TDA forces, it would have Whirlwind launcher on the top, and Plasma Cannons on the sides...

 

Ah wishful thinking... ^^;

Sorry...

 

:)

[Brother_Darius]

But you know what, it can easily be tied to past fluff of us being (before the Lion was re-discovered) the Emperor's personal guard during the Great Crusade.

 

It can even be pre Great Crusade purely because we appeared to be the Emperors bodyguard. It doesn't take much of a stretch to imagine that being the case and I'm presuming the bodyguard reason is why we've also got enough TDA to kit out the Deathwing 100% all of the time. I know it was developed during the Great Crusade but it's never specified when and I don't see anyone complaining about that particular "ancient tech" at all with full DW armies!

 

I've heard this put out there on several occasions, I'd I fear that this might be even more of a "myth" than the "shooty" monicker. I've heard many say that we were the personal guard of the Emperor. I am not aware of any actual fluff reference that states this. Can anyone find this for me as I would really be interested in seeing it. IIRC there are only really two reference that people use for this.

 

1) The Emperor had the DA chapter with him when he came to Caliban to greet the Lion.

- problem with that is that the emperor did this 19 other times as well. So that is not much of an indication

 

2) Our name is listed first in the order of the chapters.

- That doesn't neccesarily mean that we were "the bodyguard". There is also no reference that I know of that indicates how much time there was between the developmet of chapters. Was it days or decades? When twins are born, one if invaribly "first" but that doesn't really make either one older or more distinguished than any other.

 

 

I'm just really curious because people site it so often as "fluff" that we were the personal bodyguard, but I can't find it anywhere.

[Augustus]

If you don't doubt the "truth" is IS the truth. We are the bodyguards. The Lion was second only to Horus in victories and equal in strategy. ;D

 

"Don't ask questions" --Aunt Petunia, Harry Potter

 

edit: All said in jest :lol:

[HJL]

What about Bethor? Before plasma and gangs of chaplains i want bethor back! How come no one is mentioning him in heir wish lists?

[Hexagon Sun]

I'm sure I have read it a good few times now but as with everything the internet is possibly to blame for exaggerating it. But I don't recall any specific stories of all 19 other legions being with the Emperor when he found their Primarch.

 

I have a recollection of Astelan saying something about it, but that may just be fighting in fairly close proximity to the Emperor which implies it more than directly saying it. I could be wrong though as it's been a while since i've read AoD, Descent of Angels or Fallen Angels. Someone with a more recent/comprehensive knowledge of them may be able to answer this.

 

Has there ever been a solid fluff reason for why the DA have enough suits of TDA for the full first company and also all successors? I know that there's a level of truth bending involved with successors however as they wouldn't necessarily have enough TDA, or even a jetbike for the master of the 2nd Co. So this whole Emperor's guard thing makes this all seem a lot more feasible in my eyes.

[EPK]

I agree with Hexagon, the problem with being all rounders - sort of like we are now - makes people just say that we should simply be rolled into the vanilla codex. We obviously don't want that. So we certainly do need to play up an aspect.

 

I don't think dabbling in some extra Plasma is going to make us a super shooty gun line army. Plus, I'm going to wind up rolling a bunch of 1s anyway...

 

I know the argument that we are the first legion so we should have more ancient tech is often given, but I am in the same boat as others, regardless of our Legion number, all the Legions fought, at least in part, during the Great Crusade, so yes, I could see them having the ancient technologies as well. What sets us apart was that we are one of the loyalist Legions that DIDN'T get nearly wiped out at Isstvan. Nor were we the Legion that set it's entire force against another, like the Space Wolves. Nor were we the Legion that defended our home system from the massive power of the Word Bearers. I'm also pretty sure we didn't even make it in time to defend Terra. In all of these epic battles, it can be assumed that many arms and armaments were simply never recovered from the dead or ground to pieces under the tracks of heretics and loyalist alike. I'd say that's the angle to use. Sure, we lost our entire home world and perhaps half our numbers, but certainly the most important weapons were abroad with the crusading legion.

[EPK]

We are the first legion because are primarch was gene bred first. All 20 legion,s where created at about the same time so the other legions have just as much claim to ancient war gear as the Dark Angel,s do. Heck the sallies and the Iron Hand,s could very well still build these weapons according to background fluff.

 

 

So pleas pleas pleas pleas if your going to give the DA plasma give them a decent reason why.

 

"About the same time"... yes - we can assume this at least. But the Legion was first nonetheless - http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=247472

 

As we learn from the Feast of Malediction entry found in the link above.

 

Also, things to consider, how long does it take the Emperor to create a legion? How much time between the 1st and 2nd and so on? What was the 1st Legion doing during this time? Remember, Space Marines were not created from birth like the Primarchs, the Emperor had to find aspirants from Terra and not only train them (which takes years), but train them to train subsequent marines (in that time he was also having Mars pump out amazing amounts of space craft to carry them). What if the 1st Legion helped train the other fledgling Legions?

 

I do however agree with you, no matter who was created first, it's sensible that they were all outfitted as best as possible.

[Mercy 0f Spades]

What about Bethor? Before plasma and gangs of chaplains i want bethor back! How come no one is mentioning him in heir wish lists?

 

Who is Bethor?

[Mercy 0f Spades]

What don't think dabbling in some extra Plasma is going to make us a super shooty gun line army. Plus, I'm going to wind up rolling a bunch of 1s anyway...

 

Superior Fire Power AND the chance to melt your face off! I love it!

 

The plasma burns actually play into the fluff of my successor chapter. They're seen as a cleansing of guilt by which the Emperor allows to happen. Everyone of my Marines takes time with the Plasma weapons and if the weapon takes you then you're fight is over and your guilt purged.

[Hexagon Sun]

Who is Bethor?

 

He was a special character that the dark angels standard bearer model was released to represent back in 2nd edition. He came with special rules for each of the Dark Angels sacred banners but he was dropped in subsequent codexes.

[HJL]

What about Bethor? Before plasma and gangs of chaplains i want bethor back! How come no one is mentioning him in heir wish lists?

 

Who is Bethor?

 

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...able&id=255 there is some info on him

[Captain Semper]

Who is Bethor?

 

Arrest this man! Crimes against the Legion, the Emperor of Mankind, Mankind itself and common decency! <_< :D :)

 

I guess the legacy of the second edition runs deep. I seriously don't see why he is so important that he has to return - I don't mind him but I am not losing any sleep over him either.

[Brother_Darius]

Who is Bethor?

 

Arrest this man! Crimes against the Legion, the Emperor of Mankind, Mankind itself and common decency! :) :lol: :lol:

 

I guess the legacy of the second edition runs deep. I seriously don't see why he is so important that he has to return - I don't mind him but I am not losing any sleep over him either.

 

Back in the day every chapter had one championn who was blessed with being able to carry each chapters sacred standards, and it was always a special character. Ours was Brother Bethor. In later editions they were all done away with and all fell under the blanket rules of "holy relic's".

 

If we are to return our sacred standards to the glory that they so richly deserve, only seems fit that they likewise have a worthy champion (special character) to carry them.

[Hexagon Sun]

Arrest this man! Crimes against the Legion, the Emperor of Mankind, Mankind itself and common decency! :) :lol: :lol:

 

He admitted to painting a Space Wolf earlier so I think the truth is slowly coming out.. ;)

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

Arrest this man! Crimes against the Legion, the Emperor of Mankind, Mankind itself and common decency! :) :D :D

 

He admitted to painting a Space Wolf earlier so I think the truth is slowly coming out.. B)

*GASP*

 

To think I saw him as a blood brother... What a fool I was!!

 

Ahem..

 

Forgive me for playing the devil's advocate here, but at the moment becoming a shootier Marine codex would not be such a terrible thing. Regardless of how valid the origins of the idea of DAs as "shooty marines", it is there. Obviously, it shouldn't mean that we're slouches in CC, no typical Marine Chapter has such a glaring weakness despite its specialty, but considering the vanilla 'dex is the "balanced" book and that the BA and BT are the more CC-oriented Codices, having us as the strong shooters of the family is not too farfetched an idea.

 

As for plasma, I'll say it's a fairly decent way to deal with enemies in power armor. It needn't be limited to plasma guns everywhere either, for those of you who balk at the idea of "shooting only". A unit with several members with power swords and plasma pistols wouldn't be too unfluffy, pop'em with a few shots then chop up what smouldering traitors remain. An expedient and hardly unwise way of dealing with heavily armored foes. As for plasma guns making for inflexible weapons, well... They're no more inflexible than the standard rapid fire weapon issued en masse to the space marines. (let's hope there's some sort of reliable plasma gear we can upgrade to..)

 

Lastly, I don't think we're that tactically flexible, fluff-wise. One defining DA trait is staying in a fight until the bitter end, against all odds and almost against all reason. If anything, we should have rules to help us survive and overcome the ordeals our way of warfare tends to throw at us. The current Codex's emphasis on mixed gear for some units comes to mind.

 

Just my two cents, take them with its due grain (or block) of salt.

[march10k]

I like the idea of multiple chaplains (not interrogator-chaplains) taken as one elites choice, as long as they can have jump-packs. That (second power weapon, rerolls) would make assault squads worth taking! I could actually see myself fielding an entire battle company in a larger game, then. Two chappied assault squads, six tactical squads (hopefully intractible), and two dev squads...If we could get tacticals with heavy flamers or some other fire-on-the-move "heavy" weapon, or two specials, that would be bonus...2-3 rhinoed up squads of that type, 3-4 OBJ-camping fire support tac squads would be a good mix, IMNSHO...

[Brother Caliban]

I'm not made up on these rumours - they sound too obvious and lack creativity - for me anyway B).

 

Especially the plasma-fest :(

 

Brothers... this is modern Games Workshop. For example.... lets take Space Wolves and include literal wolves, in fact giant ones which marines can ride on, and while we are at it model them to look like pokemon.

 

If there is any fluff already established they will milk it for all it's worth -£-€-$. Gone are subtle but effective rules a la Weaken Resolve. Rant rant yes, but not all was broken in the older books, instead of building on old DA dex's GW simple re-writes anything biased on the nonsensical whims of the current anthers. People forsake Gav Thorpe but some of the new writers should go back to English literature degrees or working in hipster book shops.

 

GW Management: "Hey new design studio guy go crazy with this codex, forget researching the last 10 years and fluff, just do a remake, if you think it might make money just go for it (Necrons)".

 

Specific Direction?

 

Ravenwing, Deathwing, Ironwing, feathers, giant raven, jet bikes, plasma, swords, chaplain squads.... did I forget anything, oh yea armour 14 flying "Rock Tank" - well we need a flyer for the next money making campaign!

 

Rant over.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Your cynicism is EPIC!! and well founded B)

[Ronin_eX]

But you know what, it can easily be tied to past fluff of us being (before the Lion was re-discovered) the Emperor's personal guard during the Great Crusade.

 

It can even be pre Great Crusade purely because we appeared to be the Emperors bodyguard. It doesn't take much of a stretch to imagine that being the case and I'm presuming the bodyguard reason is why we've also got enough TDA to kit out the Deathwing 100% all of the time. I know it was developed during the Great Crusade but it's never specified when and I don't see anyone complaining about that particular "ancient tech" at all with full DW armies!

 

I've heard this put out there on several occasions, I'd I fear that this might be even more of a "myth" than the "shooty" monicker. I've heard many say that we were the personal guard of the Emperor. I am not aware of any actual fluff reference that states this. Can anyone find this for me as I would really be interested in seeing it. IIRC there are only really two reference that people use for this.

 

1) The Emperor had the DA chapter with him when he came to Caliban to greet the Lion.

- problem with that is that the emperor did this 19 other times as well. So that is not much of an indication

 

2) Our name is listed first in the order of the chapters.

- That doesn't neccesarily mean that we were "the bodyguard". There is also no reference that I know of that indicates how much time there was between the developmet of chapters. Was it days or decades? When twins are born, one if invaribly "first" but that doesn't really make either one older or more distinguished than any other.

 

 

I'm just really curious because people site it so often as "fluff" that we were the personal bodyguard, but I can't find it anywhere.

 

Hmm, I'm sure I've read it elsewhere but the best I have found so far is the excerpt from the Feast of Malediction entry. The more I think about it the more this may be an old RT-era holdover or something spawned by the internet.

 

So far the best indicator of it is in the 4th Edition codex where it refers to us as the Emperor's right hand but that can easily be taken a few different ways and may only be from our perspective. I guess until I can find the original source I wont be trotting that horse out again. It will certainly bug me for a while as to the original source of that though. Oh well.