Will the Black Templar have successor chapters?

[CKO]

When the new codex comes out, when ever that might be will the Black Templar have successor chapters?

[Acebaur]

While nothing is impossible, it is extremely unlikely. Black Templars are themselves a successor to the Imperial Fists, and thus their geneseed is that of the Imperial Fists. Generally speaking successor chapters do not have successors. This is because of the way successor chapters are created. Each chapter sends a portion of its geneseed back to Terra so that new chapters may be created. So when a new chapter is created, it is created from a first founding chapter(formally the Legions) geneseed. That geneseed may have come from one of the successors and a successor chapter may train and help equip the new chapter, but they are still a successor to the parent Legion chapter. Some chapters may call themselves successors to another successor, but in practice they are all really successors to the original 9 first founding chapters.

 

Aside from that there is another reason why Black Templars will likely never have a successor. That is because of the way we operate. Templars are at the extreme end of independence and very divergent from the codex astartes. I can think of no conceivable reason why the High Lord of Terra would ask(or the Templars accept) the training of a new chapter, as we would certainly not train them in the ways of the codex. Also the Templars would not create a branch chapter on their own without permission from the High Lords. There would be no apparent benefit, as we already don't adhere to the codex and are already many times the standard chapter size(by some accounts as many as 6000, but spread out across the galaxy). So instead we just create more Templars, with no need or desire to be called anything else.

 

 

I should also make a note that there are several chapters that share our name, notable the Red and White Templars. Not much is known about them other than their color schemes and the fact that they are both codex adherent chapters and no relation to the Black Templars(other than possibly being a IF successor)

 

Hope that helps!

[civsmitty]

If the Black Templar were asked to create and train a successor Chapter, it's likely they'd just ask why they couldn't train them AS Templar.

[travisb7]

Instead of successor chapters, we'll probably see paint scheme variations based on different crusades, especially taking into account the reasons mentioned above for no successor chapters.

 

Having multiple crusades with slight variations of color would once again set us apart from the other Marine chapters.

[Brother Tyler]

Ah, the recurring "do the Black Templars have any Successors" question. This usually comes up in Liber Astartes for DIYs, especially when someone has the temerity :) to create a DIY Chapter that is descended from the Black Templars.

 

The next codex will certainly be very interesting in this regard.

 

While GW has never explicitly said (or even hinted) that the Black Templars don't have any Successors, the information available would definitely make Successors of the Chapter likely to be few, if any.

 

If I recall correctly, one of the Deathwatch RPG (FFG) supplements mentions how a player might create a character from a Black Templars Successor Chapter. Now while some players might not consider the Deathwatch RPG to be canon, the truth is that the material they include in those books is vetted by GW IP. On that basis, it appears that there's a possibility (even if only a slim one) that GW hasn't closed the book on the possibility of the Black Templars siring one or more Successors over the years.

 

We could argue around and around about this (and we have), but at the end of the day we just don't know. Some will argue that the Black Templars have none while others will argue that it's possible that the Black Templars have one or more Successors. We won't have a definitive answer until Games Workshop provides one, and maybe the next Codex: Black Templars will provide that answer.

 

And note that there is often confusion about what it means to be a Successor. Ultimately, as has been said, any Chapter created from the Black Templars would be descended from Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists Legion. However, as the Imperial Armour books make clear, it's entirely possible for any Chapter to be the progenitor of a Successor. Chapters created in this way would trace their lineage through the immediate sire back to the parent legion (so a theoretical Black Templars Successor would identify the Black Templars as their immediate parent while seeing the Imperial Fists Legion and Rogal Dorn as the ultimate source of their gene-seed heritage). Under this construct, yes, the Black Templars may have Successors.

 

I think that the closest thing we have to an official answer to the question can be found here. Also, you can see some other discussions where this question has come up here. My advice is to look past the emotion and consider the facts (and there is a lot of speculation and interpretation mixed in with the facts, so tread cautiously). There are valid points on both sides.

 

Ultimately, GW will provide us with the definitive answer. Everything else is just someone's opinion.

[lofnsjoke]

According to the warhammer 40k wikia black templars, the red templars and possibly the white templars are successor chapters of the black templars. However, the lexicanum lists both the white templars and the red templars as founder unknown.

 

Since both if these sources are unofficial, neither should be completely believed.

[Twin .44]

I always kind of figured the different crusades were just the version the Black Templars had of successor chapters, that way people can paint them the way they want (usually still black) and still be Templars. But that's just what I've personally always thought and the reason why I have red tabbards rather than the traditional white (I also can't shade white worth a crap, but that's besides the point).

[Acebaur]

According to the warhammer 40k wikia black templars, the red templars and possibly the white templars are successor chapters of the black templars. However, the lexicanum lists both the white templars and the red templars as founder unknown.

 

Since both if these sources are unofficial, neither should be completely believed.

 

The warhammer wikia is terribly inaccurate. I wouldn't believe anything you read on there. The Red and White Templars are definitely not Black Templar successors, as they are both codex adherent chapters. Lexicanum, while unofficial, strives to have only official fluff(including BL sources). So it's about as accurate as you can get. Both of those chapters are possibly of Dorn's geneseed, but the relation to the real Templars ends there.

[Marshal Nathanial]

It would make sense that the red and white templars were decended from the black templars because one they are the other two colors black templars use and two the white templars color sceme is complete opposite of the black templars. However if you say colors mean crap then imagen this some other chapter tells the black templars that they have to many knights so the black templars create the white templars then some time passes and one of the.chapters tells the templars they have to many knights so they create the red templars. An example of this is on the back of our codex some adviser is telling the emperor that the black templars have a shiz ton of knights.

 

I hope this makes sense.

[Brother Tyler]

To expand upon Acebaur's reply, the material posted at Wikia about the Red/White Templars being Successors of the Black Templars is player speculation based solely upon the use of the word "templars" in the names of those Chapters. Games Workshop has never even hinted at a relationship between the three Chapters.

 

To counter a comment by Acebaur, though, a Chapter descended from the Black Templars (through gene-seed) might not necessarily follow all of the traditions and organization of that Chapter. It would be entirely possible for a Successor to be adherent to the Codex Astartes. This is the same principle that can be seen in the Mortifactors who are one of the Primogenitors. Despite being a Second Founding Successor of the Ultramarines Legion and starting out as Codex Astartes adherent, that Chapter has deviated from the Codex Astartes over the millennia (much to the consternation of their more conservative cousins in the Ultramarines Chapter, another Primogenitor).

[Acebaur]

It would make sense that the red and white templars were decended from the black templars because one they are the other two colors black templars use and two the white templars color sceme is complete opposite of the black templars. However if you say colors mean crap then imagen this some other chapter tells the black templars that they have to many knights so the black templars create the white templars then some time passes and one of the.chapters tells the templars they have to many knights so they create the red templars. An example of this is on the back of our codex some adviser is telling the emperor that the black templars have a shiz ton of knights.

 

I hope this makes sense.

 

As I said in my first post, the Templars are already way bigger than a normal chapter(on the order of 4-6 times larger), so why would we bother to create a new chapter, let alone one that follows the codex? Instead they are more likely to simply create more Black Templars. Secondly why would the BT care what another chapter thinks? They have no power over us, and while they can complain that they think we have too many knights, fact is that they cannot prove it. Our codex is very clear on this matter. Only the High Marshal truly knows how many Templars there are. The codex also establishes that the Templars don't take orders from anyone but the High Marshal, so someone else telling the Templars to trim their numbers would fall on deaf ears.

 

Determining what lineage a chapter has by it's color scheme and name is not accurate by any means. The Subjugators have green and black colored armor, similar to the Salamanders, yet they are descended from the Imperial Fists. The Marauders are all yellow like the IF, but are White Scars successors. Templars of Blood share our name but are Blood Angels successors. So name and coloration has no bearing of the chapter's history.

 

@Brother Tyler: I think the Mortifactors example is not quite applicable here as they were codex adherent and then diverged. Where as the Templars are not codex adherent and a chapter trained by them would most definitely not be codex adherent. I agree it is plausible that other chapters have been or could be created from the Templars gene seed, though in all likelihood they would probably say that they are IF successors if they follow the codex.

 

One thing is certain though and that is that currently there are no known Templar successors. Whether that is changed in the future by GW remains to be seen.

 

As for the Red and White Templars, the only info available on them is as I said earlier, they are codex adherent and possibly IF successors according to Lexicanum. From a real world perspective I believe they were created simply as paint schemes for a poster that has a collection of Space Marine Chapters. (which I actually own a copy of :tu: )

[Octavulg]

Personally, I've never thought it made much sense.

 

There are two things that can be meant by "Black Templar Successor". The first is "chapter using the Black Templars' geneseed". This is theoretically possible (the most recent C:SM says that non-Codex chapters don't provide the geneseed for new chapters any more, but "any more" is the operative term). It's effectively the same as making an Imperial Fists successor, but it's reasonable.

 

The second is "chapter trained in the mystical ways of running forward like idiots yammering about Sigismund the Black Templars". This is also theoretically possible, but it's a much shoddier theory. The simple fact is that there's no reason the High Lords would ever ask the insubordinate codex-ignoring Black Templars to create a chapter. The Black Templars are headstrong and do whatever they want. This is the precise opposite of what the High ,Lords want in a Space Marine chapter.

 

Some chapter might ask the BT to train them, but that would feel strange, IMO: chapters are, after all, an inordinately proud bunch. Why would they abandon their ways for those of some other chapter?

 

Me, I think the next BT codex is an obvious opportunity to bring back personal heraldry in a big way.

[ScottishSmurf96]

The second is "chapter trained in the mystical ways of running forward like idiots yammering about Sigismund the Black Templars".

 

'Get out of my forum'.

 

I jest! That is a very accurate description :) im sure that any new marines that would have been trained by Templars would just be new Templars. They wouldn't care abour having too many marines.

[Black Templar 307th Comp.]

I pretty much agree with everyone above. We're practically a Space Marine Legion. Black Templars do not create chapters to expand their role, they found a new crusade. "What? That Tebow guy is rallying people to heresy with his preachy ways? You, Sword Brethren Manning, you're a Marshall now, take a hundred initiates, go hit up a monastery and grab 200 neophytes and show that :P who's boss."

[ScottishSmurf96]

Dude. Rage much?

[Brother Tyler]

I pretty much agree with everyone above. We're practically a Space Marine Legion. Black Templars do not create chapters to expand their role, they found a new crusade. "What? That Tebow guy is rallying people to heresy with his preachy ways? You, Sword Brethren Manning, you're a Marshall now, take a hundred initiates, go hit up a monastery and grab 200 neophytes and show that who's boss."

This illustration, however, is fundamentally incorrect. With the exception of the 2nd Founding in which the 1st Founding Legions were broken down into Chapters and the Sons of Medusa in which a schismatic segment of the Iron Hands Chapter broke away from the parent Chapter to form their own Chapter, Chapters are not founded in the manner in which you describe.

The limited information we have indicates that the High Lords of Terra decide that a new Founding is warranted. Gene-seed is then collected from the stores of the Adeptus Mechanicus (earlier information provided for these stores being maintained on Terra and Mars in addition to those stores maintained by each Chapter, but more recent information indicates that there may be other secret stockpiles such as those stolen from Hydra Cordatus). In addition, the Adeptus Mechanicus churns out the materiel required for the Chapters to be created in the founding (power armour, bolters, ammunition, spacecraft, etc.). The new Chapters are then built up by implanting the gene-seed into new recruits, with the training and indoctrination of those recruits possibly conducted by temporary cadres from existing Chapters. The most logical method behind this would be that the training cadre comes from the Chapter whose gene-seed was used for the Successor, but that isn't necessarily the case in all of the Successors (as the first Badab War book makes clear). More importantly, just because that method is known to have been used in some instances, that doesn't mean that it is the only method that has been used. It's possible that in one or more instances, the training cadre permanently joined the Successor, or the training cadre came from an entirely different Chapter or even another gene-line. We simply don't know.

Looking at Octavulg's comments, he brings up a very good point and I think it's important to key on what we're talking about. From a purely technical standpoint, a "Successor" would be a Chapter created from another Chapter's gene-seed. That gene-seed would ultimately be traced back to the parent Legion/Primarch. Being a Successor is a genetic/biological issue, not one of character (otherwise every Codex Chapter would be considered a Successor of the Ultramarines Legion, and we know that isn't the case).

It would be entirely possible for a Successor created from the gene-line of the White Scars Legion to develop tendencies making them like the Black Templars. (I'm not saying that's likely, mind you, merely that it's possible.) Such a Chapter would be a White Scars Successor (possibly through intermediate Chapters such as the Rampagers or Destroyers), not a Black Templars Successor.

The only real valid argument brought up in arguing against the Black Templars having Successors is the note that the gene-seed of the Ultramarines Legion is preferred in the creation of Codex Chapters, supported by the fact that most Chapters are Codex adherent (some with divergences, though they remain largely Codex-adherent). However, though the Ultramarines Legion gene-seed is preferred in the creation of Codex Chapters, this doesn't mean that only the Ultramarines gene-line is used or that only Codex Chapters are created. While non-Codex Chapters are likely a rare exception, it's quite possible that one or more Chapters have been created to be expressly non-Codex for one reason or another (the Grey Knights come to mind, though they are not necessarily a strong supporting argument in this; and we should consider the Dark Founding and Steel Confessors).

We know, however, that other gene-lines have been used in the creation of the Successors - the only Legions whose gene-seed isn't used are the traitors* and the Space Wolves**. The Imperial Fists Legion gene-seed has sired Successors in later foundings (and by extension, the Black Templars may have sired their own Successors).

Based on the limited information available to us, it is within the realm of possibility (and plausibility) for the Black Templars to have one or more Successors. Even with that possibility/plausibility, it's also possible/plausible that they have none (simply because whatever conditions there are that lead to a Chapter being chosen to sire a Successor have never been met by the Black Templars). Based on the same information, it also seems likely that if the Black Templars do have any Successors, these are few and far between, especially in light of the revelation that the 2nd Founding was much larger than previously though, making the number of 3rd and later founding Successors fewer.

The nature of any theoretical Black Templars Successors is up in the air. While it would seem entirely logical to assume that a Black Templars Successor would be like the Black Templars, we don't know that this is (always) the case. In matters of doctrine, organization, heraldry, etc., such might be the case if the Black Templars provided the training cadre that influenced the Successor(s). If the Black Templars didn't provide that cadre, however, the Chapter that did provide that cadre would have more influence. So if the Crimson Fists provided a cadre to train a Black Templars Successor, we might see a Black Templars Successor being Codex-adherent. It would always be possible for a Successor to deviate from their original teachings later, but then we get into a whole different range of circumstances.

As for any genetic influences, we know of only a few for the Black Templars. There are other aspects of the Chapter that might be genetic in nature, but we don't know for certain. For example, the missing gene-seed organs have been attributed to the Imperial Fists Legion, and these can safely be associated with a Successor (unless we go the Cursed Founding route and say that the Adeptus Mechanicus did some mixing and matching to fill the void). As for the vows and use of the Emperor's Champion, that may carry over to a Successor. Or it may not. We simply don't know.

It comes down to the simple fact that we don't know whether or not the Black Templars have ever sired a Successor. Games Workshop has never given us a definitive answer, and the limited information we have doesn't even favor one answer or the other. Both possibilities have supporting arguments, and both are equally possible and plausible. A revised Black Templars codex might provide us with a definitive answer (or it may not). Until Games Workshop gives us explicit information, however, we are left with inferences, interpretation, speculation, and opinion.

* Yes, the Blood Ravens might be surviving loyalist Thousand Sons. Also, the exception to the "rule" I described is that the Cursed Founding may have included the use of traitor gene-seed in some of its Successors.

** Though the Legion was split into the Space Wolves and Wolf Brothers Chapters when the Second Founding took place.

[Black Templar 307th Comp.]

Wow, someone took my Tim Tebow joke way too seriously...

[Brother Tyler]

Wow, someone took my Tim Tebow joke way too seriously...

Actually, it wasn't your Tim Tebow "joke" that I was responding to. That portion of your reply was of no value, so garnered no response.

 

What I was correcting was your misguided notion that the Black Templars would be the ones deciding to create a Successor from their gene-seed and that their motivation might be to "expand their role." Such is not the case, which might be clear to you had you actually read my post and given it some analytical thought instead of trying to back out of your previous ill-chosen reply by distracting other readers with an incorrect comment.

 

But if the message you're sending is that your replies are of no value, then your message is noted and your posts will be given the attention they deserve in the future.

[voi shet magir]

Personally, I've never thought it made much sense.

 

There are two things that can be meant by "Black Templar Successor". The first is "chapter using the Black Templars' geneseed". This is theoretically possible (the most recent C:SM says that non-Codex chapters don't provide the geneseed for new chapters any more, but "any more" is the operative term). It's effectively the same as making an Imperial Fists successor, but it's reasonable.

 

That implies that there are nine generic types of gene seed, when there should be over a thousand distinct gene-lines, and really there is one for every individual marines, but those have to hew to some standard of fidelity to their chapters' initial set of zygotes.

 

 

I pretty much agree with everyone above. We're practically a Space Marine Legion. Black Templars do not create chapters to expand their role, they found a new crusade. "What? That Tebow guy is rallying people to heresy with his preachy ways? You, Sword Brethren Manning, you're a Marshall now, take a hundred initiates, go hit up a monastery and grab 200 neophytes and show that :) who's boss."

This illustration, however, is fundamentally incorrect. With the exception of the 2nd Founding in which the 1st Founding Legions were broken down into Chapters and the Sons of Medusa in which a schismatic segment of the Iron Hands Chapter broke away from the parent Chapter to form their own Chapter, Chapters are not founded in the manner in which you describe.

 

Since you've been around for a while, you were probably correct in the post that comes after this quote. I can't read it though, until I know that you weren't telling someone that marine chapters are not allowed to start their own successors, when his verbatim quote is "Black Templars do not create chapters."

 

I imagine there may be some trivia or interesting, self-originated concept in that text wall; you have spent enough time indulging in this hobby that it might be worth reading.

 

Black Templars make more Black Templars, is what he said. I do not know what you said.

[Valtonis]

there can never be successor chapters to the Black Templars because they do not have a separate primarch.

even if the black templars do use their own geneseed stores, create and train a new chapter, that chapter will still be an Imperial Fists successor chapter due to the Primarch lineage.

 

they will be Imperial fists successors that operate like the Black Templars and not a Black Templar successor

[Tolek]

If the Black Templar were asked to create and train a successor Chapter, it's likely they'd just ask why they couldn't train them AS Templar.

 

Love it! That would be what High Marshal Helbrecht would say.......

 

"If My Black Templars train them, then they are Templars, nothing less!"

[voi shet magir]

there can never be successor chapters to the Black Templars because they do not have a separate primarch.

even if the black templars do use their own geneseed stores, create and train a new chapter, that chapter will still be an Imperial Fists successor chapter due to the Primarch lineage.

 

they will be Imperial fists successors that operate like the Black Templars and not a Black Templar successor

 

"Each of the Second Found Chapters is derived directly from an original First Founding Chapter and initially shared its gene-seed. Subsequently the new Chapter's gene-seed was isolated, forming a new genetic line....

 

" ...more than half [of third and later founding chapters] are descended from the Ultramarines, either directly or indirectly through one of the Primogenitor Chapters."

 

So, actually, every chapter has its own distinct gene-seed. Black Templar gene-seed is not interchangeable with Imperial Fist gene-seed, and fifth founding chapters with Dorn or another Primarch's gene-seed may have an eighth founding successor whose gene-seed comes from their specific strain of Dornite genetics.

 

A new chapter cannot be founded overnight. A single suitable gene-seed must be selected for each zygote. Zygotes are then grown in culture and implanted into human test-slaves. These test slaves must be biologically compatible and free from mutation. Test-slaves spend their entire lives bound in static experimental capsules. Although conscious they are completely immobile, serving as little more than mediums within which the various zygotes can develop. From the original slave come two progenoids, which are implanted within two more slaves, from which come four progenoids and so on. It takes about 55 years of constant reproduction to produce 1000 healthy sets of organs.

 

Every chapter has a single template based on one marine, or on a composite of the oolitic kidney zygote from one marine and the lyman's ear zygote from another. That is what the martian purity tithes are for, to determine if a gene line is stable, or if it is deviating from the template designed at founding. There are way fewer Imperial Fists successor chapters than there are chapters with Dorn's gene-seed.

 

Though the particulars of a new Founding are shrouded in secrecy and arcane ritual, it is known that all of a new chapter's genetic make-up is not always drawn from the seed of one donor chapter. Instead, a new chapter may represent a genetic cocktail of the geneseed of others, and although purity testing is rigorous in the extreme, it is perfectly possible that these disparate elements may react with one another at a later date, in ways quite unforeseeable by their creators, and so the seed of a disastrous mutation or character flaw is sown.

 

 

If the Black Templar were asked to create and train a successor Chapter, it's likely they'd just ask why they couldn't train them AS Templar.

 

Love it! That would be what High Marshal Helbrecht would say.......

 

"If My Black Templars train them, then they are Templars, nothing less!"

 

It's true. How else did they get three to seven thousand marines? They just make more.

[Octavulg]

Actually, the interchangability of geneseed is...hard to determine. For example, chapters appear to have little difficulty using and working with different geneseed. On the other hand, several seeds seem to work very strangely (the Blood Angels' or the Space Wolves', for example).

 

The first statement you mention, voi, could just refer to the fact that the heritage is now traced from the Second Founding chapter rather than the Legion (much as two identical twins could each found a "line").

[Brother Tyler]

Since you've been around for a while, you were probably correct in the post that comes after this quote. I can't read it though, until I know that you weren't telling someone that marine chapters are not allowed to start their own successors, when his verbatim quote is "Black Templars do not create chapters."

 

I imagine there may be some trivia or interesting, self-originated concept in that text wall; you have spent enough time indulging in this hobby that it might be worth reading.

 

Black Templars make more Black Templars, is what he said. I do not know what you said.

Actually, that's not what he said. Or rather, that's only part of what he said and it wasn't the part I was addressing (which you'd know if you had read my reply instead of just making disparaging comments about it). The part I was addressing was his implication that the creation of a Successor from the gene-seed of the Black Templars would be initiated by the Black Templars. You can take the time to read my previous reply if you'd like to see how I addressed this erroneous implication.

 

So, actually, every chapter has its own distinct gene-seed. Black Templar gene-seed is not interchangeable with Imperial Fist gene-seed, and fifth founding chapters with Dorn or another Primarch's gene-seed may have an eighth founding successor whose gene-seed comes from their specific strain of Dornite genetics.

This statement might be completely true were it not for the fact that Games Workshop has in the past said that some Chapters have been amalgamated into a single new Chapter due to battle losses. The implication here is that their gene-seed was compatible and could be sustained in the normal manner. There might be consequences to this, of course, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there will always be negative consequences (and GW hasn't indicated that these amalgamations necessarily resulted in bad things happening, so we can infer that the concept is sound).

[Jareddm]

This statement might be completely true were it not for the fact that Games Workshop has in the past said that some Chapters have been amalgamated into a single new Chapter due to battle losses. The implication here is that their gene-seed was compatible and could be sustained in the normal manner. There might be consequences to this, of course, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there will always be negative consequences (and GW hasn't indicated that these amalgamations necessarily resulted in bad things happening, so we can infer that the concept is sound).

I feel it's safe to say that while every chapter's geneseed is unique, some are close enough to remain compatible within reason. A chapter like the Executioners has a slightly different geneseed from the Black Templar, but might still be compatible if the former happens to be in dire need of geneseed. However, when it comes to forming a successor, those little differences are picked out as something they hope the new chapter could inherit. Hence why a founding chapter may use Executioner geneseed instead of Imperial Fist. Thus the Executioners can have a lineage that passes on their specific traits but is still more or less compatible with all other IF successors. Usually this isn't the case as the majority of chapters are founded simply to churn out more marines rather than for a specific purpose. Thus they'd either go back to using Imperial Fist geneseed, or some amalgam of geneseed from various IF successors. This last part I'm not so sure if it's done with IF successors, as I've only seen it mention in relation to Ultramarine successors.

 

As for Black Templar successors, the closest thing I could think of would be if a new chapter was founded, regardless of geneseed, and a Black Templar crusade simply happened to be closest. That orders came down from Terra that this new chapter needs a training cadre and needs it now. Thus the new chapter would be trained by BT (assuming they actually responded) but because of their geneseed they could not just be absorbed into the BT's ranks. This would be an extremely rare occurrence that would require the BT's to arrive right after the process of implantation has occured, but before the proper training cadre. Perhaps the real training group was destroyed en route. I could see this happening maybe once or twice in the history of the Imperium. Thus the chapter would fight like BT and would have an excellent relationship with any BT crusade they came across, but would not be a Son of Dorn.