puck Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I had a thought earlier and I wanted to run it by everyone: Its known the the Dark Angels are much more cohesive across chapters than other groups of space marines. Its also known that they are quite paranoid. Its my opinion that were the DA plots discovered, what would really hang the DA's isn't that half of them fell (UM's have whole chapters fall comparatively often), its that they maintained their cohesion after being ordered to disband. Finally I believe the general consensus is that different space marine chapters only have peripheral knowledge of how each other work. From each chapters sacred rituals and recruiting practices to how other chapters choose to fight. With these facts in mind, do you think the Dark Angels believe that all of the other legions have secret governing organizations just like they do? Sure other chapters don't mention it while we're shanking orks together but we don't mention ours to outsiders either, heck we don't even mention ours to our own marines. If so it would be logical to assume that part of the DA reasoning for the inner circle to exist (other than the Fallen) is because all the other legions must have one as well and the first legion would be at a disadvantage not to maintain cohesion of their own as a safeguard against another legion turning traitor. Which admittedly they have been betrayed before and its an overwhelming part of the DA subconscious. This kind of self feeding paranoia sounds very much how the Dark Angels might think. Whats everyone's opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I had a thought earlier and I wanted to run it by everyone: Its known the the Dark Angels are much more cohesive across chapters than other groups of space marines. Its also known that they are quite paranoid. That is correct. In fact the text on p.11 of our current Codex suggests that Inner Circle spans accross all Primogenitors and leaves it open that the same applies for all Successors. In fact the "secret Legion" theme is very strong with the DAs - and in my view it's the single most important breach of the Codex Astartes. It's not just the RW that deviates (I see DW as completely Codex personally). It's the fact that DAs in practice they privately disregard what they have endorsed publicly. I sure hope the rumored new Codex to really play up the "secret Legion" theme. Its my opinion that were the DA plots discovered, what would really hang the DA's isn't that half of them fell (UM's have whole chapters fall comparatively often), its that they maintained their cohesion after being ordered to disband. Well, it was hardly half of them. We tried this exercise here some time ago and the more credible calculation (based on chronologies and training output of Caliban) showed that Luther would probably command something in the order of less than 10k marines. Now at a time where the 1st Legion would be 80-100k strong that would represent something in the order of less than 10%. BUT the problem is not numbers. It's whether a taint exists or not. In principle even one Fallen would be a great shame. But that would be fairly easy to cover-up. Ten thousand marines scattered through space and time requires a cover-up operation of tremendous proportions that should go on for ever! I agree though that the biggest breach of the Codex Astartes is the maintaining a a secret legion. But if the secret is to come out the breach of the Codex Astartes would be a technicality... :tu: With these facts in mind, do you think the Dark Angels believe that all of the other legions have secret governing organizations just like they do? Sure other chapters don't mention it while we're shanking orks together but we don't mention ours to outsiders either, heck we don't even mention ours to our own marines. If so it would be logical to assume that part of the DA reasoning for the inner circle to exist (other than the Fallen) is because all the other legions must have one as well and the first legion would be at a disadvantage not to maintain cohesion of their own as a safeguard against another legion turning traitor. Which admittedly they have been betrayed before and its an overwhelming part of the DA subconscious. The question here is why would they do that? DAs have a reason (the Hunt for the Fallen), what's theirs? I mean a reason that is stong enough to overrule the agreement of their Primarchs or honoured leaders that subscribed to the spirit of the Codex back in the day? Actually more than 50% of all Chapters are from the UMs geneseed. And given the UMs are the most "Codex" of all chapters I'd say they would do everything to safeguard their Primarch's legacy -rather than by-passing the spirit of the Codex Astartes. There is no hint of other secret legions out there and frankly there is little reason to exist in my view. On a out-of-Universe argument, I'd say that the Secret Legion is a defining feature of the DA background. If other chapters were to take it up it would just make it a standard Marine trait and cheapen it. It would also undermine the Codex Astartes that should be the beacon for all marines to follow (willingly may I add!). It's not just an UM thing. It's a SM thing. However 40k lore is an ever changing thing so you never know what the future would bring... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I had a thought earlier and I wanted to run it by everyone: Its known the the Dark Angels are much more cohesive across chapters than other groups of space marines. Its also known that they are quite paranoid. Its my opinion that were the DA plots discovered, what would really hang the DA's isn't that half of them fell (UM's have whole chapters fall comparatively often), its that they maintained their cohesion after being ordered to disband. Finally I believe the general consensus is that different space marine chapters only have peripheral knowledge of how each other work. From each chapters sacred rituals and recruiting practices to how other chapters choose to fight. With these facts in mind, do you think the Dark Angels believe that all of the other legions have secret governing organizations just like they do? Sure other chapters don't mention it while we're shanking orks together but we don't mention ours to outsiders either, heck we don't even mention ours to our own marines. If so it would be logical to assume that part of the DA reasoning for the inner circle to exist (other than the Fallen) is because all the other legions must have one as well and the first legion would be at a disadvantage not to maintain cohesion of their own as a safeguard against another legion turning traitor. Which admittedly they have been betrayed before and its an overwhelming part of the DA subconscious. This kind of self feeding paranoia sounds very much how the Dark Angels might think. Whats everyone's opinion? This is an interesting topic. For myself, I fit into the camp that believed the DA and their successors are, in fact, one Legion, not merely in terms of the hunt but in more than that. When the Lion returns we will all become one again, we will be a Legion once more. I also have been thinking a lot on the way the DA operate in terms of the hunt, and more than that. The hunt is fairly integral to the Dark Angels, but the system put in place, the command structure over the whole Legion would continue, imo, over more than just the hunt. I would expect the DA, through various other organisations, fronts, movements, agents and their own Chapters to own vast resources throughout the Imperium, worlds, ships, troops, etc. Rouge Traders and members of the Inquisition I can see as being, somewhere on the chain, serving the DA, maybe they do not know about it, ie. they report to one guy, who report to another and so on up to a guy who reports direct to the DA. This is another angle I would like to be explored in the background, I would hate to see it translated into a codex, ie. units etc. but there is potential there. So, for me its Legion ruled by IC and massive network of agents, spies, organisations, families, worlds, companies etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puck Posted April 3, 2012 Author Share Posted April 3, 2012 The question here is why would they do that? DAs have a reason (the Hunt for the Fallen), what's theirs? I mean a reason that is stong enough to overrule the agreement of their Primarchs or honoured leaders that subscribed to the spirit of the Codex back in the day? Actually more than 50% of all Chapters are from the UMs geneseed. And given the UMs are the most "Codex" of all chapters I'd say they would do everything to safeguard their Primarch's legacy -rather than by-passing the spirit of the Codex Astartes. There is no hint of other secret legions out there and frankly there is little reason to exist in my view. On a out-of-Universe argument, I'd say that the Secret Legion is a defining feature of the DA background. If other chapters were to take it up it would just make it a standard Marine trait and cheapen it. It would also undermine the Codex Astartes that should be the beacon for all marines to follow (willingly may I add!). It's not just an UM thing. It's a SM thing. However 40k lore is an ever changing thing so you never know what the future would bring... Let me elaborate, out of universe I don't believe any of the other Legions have secret organizations leading them and agree that its probably The defining "codex divergent" aspect of our chapter. But from the point of view of an inner circle member who's dealt with secret societies and hidden masters all my life it would be logical to not believe other chapters when they say they operate independently. Because an IC member says exactly that everyday to outsiders and doesn't mean it. To him it would be ludicrous for any of the other legions to "actually" split up rather than just pay lip service to the right people. I guess the question could be rephrased better by saying: Could the inner circle partially justify its existence with a "they have 'em too" argument. We would they need to? well who said paranoid needs a reason. And while no we (DAs) don't really have any evidence that the other legions operate cohesively, none of the other legions know about us. So since we're able to hide from them should we underestimate a potential foe (and betrayers at that) by thinking they couldn't possibly hide something similar from us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayward Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 In a nutshell, every DA succesor chapter has an inner circle. That inner circle answers directly to the DA Grand Master when need be, 99% of the times ifor the purpouses of fallen hunting activities. Thats as far as the "secret legion" thing goes, and for the simple reason that if things were more obvious, there would be civil war... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frejdruk Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I agree with you, Puck. It's common amongst people who do things they know is wrong to justify it by pointing to actions of others, in a sort of "well, at least I'm not doing THAT". I definitely think that those knowledgeable about the Unforgiven-encompassing Inner Circle, at least quite a few of them, would believe that other chapters/legions does something similar. My belief is that the Inner Circles does not only cooperate in matters regarding the Fallen, even though that definitely is a big part of it. Abandoning the legion structure wholly means giving up a lot of power. Tacticians such as the sons of the Lion wouldn't do that happily, and I think they probably would believe others to be feeling the same way. Keeping a secret legion means the power structure is intact, only a fool wouldn't assume that (potential) foes made the same, logical, choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Priest Haelaeif Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I completely agree with the OP. The Dark Angels have always been paranoid in the extreme, and while their legion-spanning organisation may be used mostly for the hunt for the Fallen, they most likely wouldn't disband it even if they ever found all of them - because they are not only paranoid, but also control freaks and have a very "us-versus-the-universe"-mindset, too. They cannot make sure the IoM is loyal to them, but they can at least make sure they have somewhere between 20 and maybe 80-something chapters of marines at their disposal. By the way, is there any source saying how many chapters are of DA geneseed? It is one of the most flawless geneseeds out there, after all, should be more than just a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayward Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 By the way, is there any source saying how many chapters are of DA geneseed? It is one of the most flawless geneseeds out there, after all, should be more than just a few. There is a piece of fluff in the latest codex that points this out, there are few unforgiven succesors considering the purity of its geneseed... Also, the GotC (IIRC) were the only chapter ever created by order of a space marine chapter (grand) master... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I thought that it was the Disciples of Caliban that was created on the request of the SGM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I thought that it was the Disciples of Caliban that was created on the request of the SGM. And that is exactly the strongest argument as to why the DA operate as a single cohesive body when the need arises.An entire chapter was created for the purpose of hunting down one individual.Its safe to assume that same chapter is answering directly to the SGM.By the same extend all the GMs answer directly to the SGM and that is a fact known by the summits held in the rock here and there.While i dont believe the DA to interfere in the day to day activities of the successors,certain reports about their activities,such as their positions,what they are doing and information exchange is in the routine. Moreover it is safe to assume that the DAs trust their successors(but they still monitor them ofc)due to the presence of the inner circle in every chapter, a trust that extends to the denial of outright communication with every other imperial authority on the battlefield but not do they cooperate but also combine forces with their successors.On the siege of Vraks the DA fought as necessary to stop the influx of reinforcements (by destroying the spaceports) and secure their own objectives (three fallen if i remember). Thus they left with a single communication and left the war to its fate, till the Angels of Absolution returned with a DA interrogator attached (presumably the eyes of the inner circle) to mop up and capture some fallen that escaped in the first attempt. Moreover the 'Supreme' in Supreme Grand Master, is not a cosmetic title. All those are signs of a definite unity among the chapters, albeit one that only their higher command structures know.The rank and file marines, IMHO are oblivious. It definitely started to protect the secret and hunt the fallen,but even if that purpose no longer held sway their nature would prevent them from disbanding the inner circle.Think of NATO and the Warsaw pact.The USSR collapsed, but NATO didnt disband,they just switched their sights and purpose. As for the former legions still maintaining coherency id say no.Definitely no.There are only two examples that can be misidentified as thus but they arent. Ill start with the less obvious one the Blood Angels.Their one unifying factor is that they all share the same curse and the BA reclusiarch is moving from chapter to chapter mercykilling those who succumb to the black rage.The second factor is that when the BA got nearly destroyed,the rest of the successors pooled marines to give to the mother chapter.IMHO though that would happen to every chapter of the same genetic lineage.The last and strongest indication would be the mastering of forces to defend Baal against a demonic incursion.Nearly all of the BA successors answered the call (including and excommunicate chapter). But,wouldnt that happen to every other chapter?Wouldnt the Black templars speed to help the fists?Wouldnt (and they did) UM successors defend Maggrage? Despite this defined events the BA and their successors dont maintain any form of hierarchy(secret or otherwise) among themselves.They have no inner organizations and there isnt anything to suggest that the BA are even aware of their successors whereabouts.To conclude there is nothing to define the BA and their successors as a single entity and keep them together. The second and most obvious are the Black Templars. The BT as most are aware unofficially reach about 10k marines. As many as the legions at their start (recent fluff). Those marines are divided into crusades that their Marshals operate independently of each others and all report to the Highmarshal. So far so good, more or less a legion structure. Now the templars have all the requirements of a legion: Numbers (albeit one tenth but still...), centralized command, independent forces and fleets and what i suspect a good inter information network. Also they have the unifying purpose of the continuation of the great crusade. Now if you read this you would say: Why you dont you say they arent a legion? The answer is more a historic one rather than technical and branches into two reasons: The first reason is that they are a successor chapter. A successor of a legion but a successor non the less. They might meet the criteria for a legion, but they will never be recognized as one even if that was allowed. The mother legion was the imperial fists.No matter what the BT will remain a chapter of the IFs. Never will the BT will be recognized as a legion because they were not created by the emperor. The most technical reason is one the same as the BA: They dont have any formal or informal cooperation or joined command with the rest of the IFs chapters. Thus as long as the successors/chapters of the mother legion operate independently without even a token joined command structure, the legion theme cannot be applied. Moreover there is nothing to unify them (the IFs and their successors) as a motive. 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HJL Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 There are lots of non codex chapters. Having more than 1000 marines isnt that big of a deal. Space wolves Black templars Iron snakes Iron hands grey knights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 There are lots of non codex chapters. Having more than 1000 marines isnt that big of a deal. Space wolves Black templars Iron snakes Iron hands grey knights Yes and that one more reason why they are considered mistakenly as a legion. Although i wouldnt add the grey knights into that list because they have nothing to do with normal marines on which ever level you view it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I'm not sure the GK's even have 1000 Marines, let alone more than that. Don't the Iron Hands and successors actively antagonize each other as well? Not exactly a Legion-y habit, I'd say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pueriexdeus Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Hmmm...In one of the latest HH books (know No Fear I think) I do recall the mention of a Chapter Master being tasked to take his 10,000+ Ultramarine Chapter on some separate mission. There are also in some books mention of Companies that are upward of 1000 members, some of the smaller being 200+ individuals. So regardless of the numbers involved, having the designation as Legion is more of a Command and Control issue than just the number of successor chapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Hmmm...In one of the latest HH books (know No Fear I think) I do recall the mention of a Chapter Master being tasked to take his 10,000+ Ultramarine Chapter on some separate mission. There are also in some books mention of Companies that are upward of 1000 members, some of the smaller being 200+ individuals. So regardless of the numbers involved, having the designation as Legion is more of a Command and Control issue than just the number of successor chapters. More or less, and lets not forget that UMs have no authority over their own. Remember the Mortifactors and the surprise and loathing Ventris felt for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Chaplain Ginn Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Oh the DA's warrior lodge which only discusses their fall to Chaos...runs a little to close to a scenario that happened around 10k years ago. That said the BA called in their successors, well Dante personally, to discuss their rebuilding...so I believe in a sense the bonds of geneseed are strong with most chapters, and as such the DAs probably believe their SOP isn't too much different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Oh the DA's warrior lodge which only discusses their fall to Chaos...runs a little to close to a scenario that happened around 10k years ago. That said the BA called in their successors, well Dante personally, to discuss their rebuilding...so I believe in a sense the bonds of geneseed are strong with most chapters, and as such the DAs probably believe their SOP isn't too much different. Unlike the lodges of the past,the inner circle has nothing to do with chaos and it schemes are not to how to influence a single fool to die but to coordinate and safeguard. SOP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmo Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Military Jargon - Standard Operating Procedure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Military Jargon - Standard Operating Procedure Mondus operandi to the uninitiated then? :( Thanks for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercy 0f Spades Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 While we're on the subjects of the secret legion, I wanted to ask y'all what was the "official" reason that the DA gave for the loss of their Primarch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekLee688 Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm wondering the difference of not adhiring to the codex astartes between the Black Templars, Space wolves, and "secret legion". You could link all the inner circles together and make a small legion, but how is that as bad or worse than the BT and SW flat out having fully orginized fighting units in plain view of the Imperium outside the numbers of Codex astartes? Considering every inner circle is so small, it would take alot of successor chapter's to even get to the 1000 marine mark of an actual chapter much less a 10% legion of 10,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Right, but you aren't just talking about the Inner Circle. Each Inner Circle controls 1K or so Marines, so if they are all working in concert, even 10 Chapters doing so is 10K Marines all acting as a coordinated force, which could potentially be bad news, not Legion strength, but bad news none the less. The Badab War was started over one person not adhereing to the codex regarding size of allowed forces (and he was only inflating up to 3-5K Marines), etc, think about the idea that Azrael could be controlling a fighting force of 10+ Chapters in a direct, potentially coordinated fashion... We know why this might be going on, but outsiders knowing about it would potentially look at that and scream out "Threat!" As far as the Space Wolves, they basically gave the Imperium the finger and said come make me, which the Imperium has as of yet declined to do. I'm also harboring some suspicion that they have been allowed to remain at higher strength to continue acting as the Emperor's Executioner Chapter, if need be, possibly specifically on orders they be exempted. Also, given the nature of the Wolves and the infighting between Great Companies, they may not be considered as great a threat, because it might be very hard to actually get the Space Wolves to all act in concert. The Templars, due to their Crusading nature, may not even know how many Marines they really have, and they certainly don't seem to be acting in concert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Remember that Codex: Dark Angels pre-dates the Horus Heresy novels and the ret-conning of the legions' strength. The original size of the Legions was around 5,000 marines which is easily matched by the Dark Angels and their successors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Actually, it doesn't predate the HH series. The first three books of the series were all published before the 4th Ed DA Codex came out: 2006 for the three HH books and Spring 2007 for the Codex. Now, I'm not sure if there is a discussion on Legion numbers in those books, I don't have them handy, but the standing Legion sizes may have already been increased 10 fold in the BL stuff before the Codex publication occurred. We also don't have any acknowledgement of exactly how many Marines the DA Legion numbered when it was broken up based on this new Codex. It also doesn't have any bearing on the subject. If a Legion was 5K, the 8-10K I've always heard referred to, or the 100K+ that the HH makes them out to be, the Dark Angels, if they are operating as a secret Legion, regardless of size, are already guilty of an infraction against the standing orders that a Legion can no longer exist but Marines must be limited to Chapter-sized units. The Wolves are definitely "guilty" of the same, and the Black Templars probably are as well, but no one can pin an exact number down for them, IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 I stand corrected. I started on the HH series after a few had already been published, around the time Fulgrim was released IIRC, but I didn't think it was that long ago. That's what I get for being too lazy to get up and check the publication dates. Can somebody carry me to cell 42 please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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